Not going against anyones religious beliefs, but can we keep on topic? LOL. I worry this could get dangerous.
More about the Eternia Pantheon:
The Ancients (never been clear how much human they were)
The Overlords of the Eternal Dimension (from the episode "The Golden Disk of Knowledge)
And, from Etheria: The First Ones
Just to describe my belief... ( the words in "..." are words that, in my opinion, need a better term to explain the concept an need to have a better concept behind it...) :
If "God" is part of our "Universe", he must follow the Universe Laws... So I canīt see him has Omnipotent or Creator of this "Universe".
If "he" is not part of the "Universe" we canīt explain "him" with our actual knowledge, because we can only guess about something outside our "Universe".
A "God" canīt be our God... or it his not a "God" but a pet.
We can have our belief... that is different.
We can belong to "him", because we are part of the "Universe" and if "he" made everything we are his "pets", but that donīt make "him" our God but our creator and owner.
What is "God"? I donīt know but I think that he donīt care about us more than he cares for all the "Universe", he made it, with Universal Laws and now we have to just "Survive" it that Laws.
I donīt know more but I like to hear others opinions, and normally I learn much with it and my "God" perception changes and evolve with it.
I just donīt like to hear people that only declaim the "Book" and the "Religious" rules and donīt really think about it, because what they say I can, and I have read already... oh... Iīm reading the Quran since January... a good Book to, but lack the story background of the Bible... to me, we need to read bout to make sense.
And with this post I end my "Real" "God" part of discussion in this thread.
Serpos, to me is in the same league that Procrustus, seems more like a Titan than an creation God like The Goddess.
Like Emiliano says, there are more God related characters, but I think that this sound better:
"The Ancients (never been clear how much of a deities they were)."
They can be not human but can be not Gods too.
But he got a point there, his suggestions can all be part of the Pantheon?
Horde Prime - I never see him like a God or divine, a demon? no... just a Big Bad Guy with a lot of Power, never part of the Pantheon.
So the Demon from Despondos can be part of the Pantheon?
Candidates for the Pantheon until now:
- The Goddess in any of his incarnations.
- The Overlords of the Eternal Dimension
- Demon from Despondos
- The First Ones
- The Ancients
- Horde Prime?
We could make a poll when we get an "official" list to see what other members accept as Eternia Pantheon. :)
If someone write their bios that would be cool. And art contest too.
This kind of discussion was what I wanted to have when I made my own "Ancient Gods of Eternia", Iīm happy to see that this kind of matter appeal more people than only me.
On the 8th day, God created He-Man.
The Trolla reference has been added in the MOTUC bios, I guess to differentiate that from the Filmation and MVC version.
In the comic, they are entities existing in a separated dimension.
They are eternals. Big bang after big bang, there have been many universes but the Overlords always existed and will always exists.
They use the Starseed to create the universe and "plant and grow" life.
The only other constant between all the Universe are the 2 Planet at the center of the Universe, that keep it balanced.... or at least that how it was before the Great Wars (see minicomics)
Ancients are semigods, less powerful than the Overlords.
They exist (or existed) only in the current universe and are probably some of the most (sorry for the pun) ancient life form.
The creature imprisoned in the Shakarran Crystal is a fallen Ancient.
Or, part of him.
After he was banned by the other Ancients, to save himself, he splitted his very being in 2 halves, becoming almost 2 separated creatures.
One of them remained on Eternia and fought He-Ro, the other got a mechanical body and hidden himself on a fallen world...
Can you guess who they are are now? :skwink:
But the half that was trapped in the Crystal...so was that the "Nameless One" that King Hiss thought about in the original mini comic? Kind of like Voldemort splitting his soul in Harry Potter, or Sauron putting part of himself in the One Ring. I love that MOTU could have had someone like that (and might still). I wonder if it was Kobra Kahn then who picked up the shard at the end of Shard of Darkness so to give it to King Hsss again.
Since we've kind of brought up these tiers of pantheons similar to the Olympians, Titans, and Giants, where do we think Eternian giants like Titus and Megator fit in? Are giants like Colossor actual cosmic beings, or are they more like Talos from Greek myth, more like aberrations created by these god-like characters?
If the story being built for MOTUC is going off the same one that you just gave for the MVC comics, then the Overlords are the gods, and everyone else would exist on levels below them like Titans and Giants.
Can SCROLLOS be part of the Pantheon?
In general, we seem to recognize Serpos, The Goddess, and Procrustus.
The first thing I want to hit on is faith. All three of these have a physical form that can be addressed directly. This means that the Eternians have no need for blind faith. Without faith, religion doesn't stand much of a chance, and instead we simply see rituals which are expected to have certain immediate results. Perhaps their are cults which know the secrets to addressing a specific diety (the Cult of Serpos). There doesn't seem much of a reason to have an institutionalized system for faith to function in. Morality is exceedingly humanistic and subjective, and likely aligned with what one believes is the best option pending whose side they want to be on, without worry for the long term consequences so long as the side they are choosing is the winner in the ongoing divine conflicts.
The conflicts include the Eternians, the Horde, and the Snake-men's respective cults. Those non-human Eternians seem to mostly ally themselves with the Eternians, who recognize a power protected by Castle Grayskull. There is a Goddess, who is either in charge of Grayskull, or subject to Grayskull depending on your interpretation. Teela (as the Goddess) is charged with defending Grayskull, but is she picked because she is already strong (Grayskull begging the Goddess for divine intervention in protection of its secrets), or does Grayskull make her strong to protect it by use of its secret power (The Goddess exists as an avatar of the strength of Grayskull). What is the source of the power? Are we ascribing it to the power of the ancients combined, or are the ancients subject to the secrets of the castle, and just protecting it. A lot of that has to do with the swords:
If we recognize the power sword as an antenna picking up the power of Grayskull to loan it to its wielder, then that power will fail as soon as Grayskull falls. Once Skeletor breaks in, he could capture the secrets of the ancients and the power sword would be a dud. Skeletor could then use the secrets without He-man's intervention to take control of the universe. (Mike Young, Filmation)
If we recognize the power sword as a source of divine power by itself, and its wielder poised to defend Grayskull, then whomever holds the sword would have the fail before Grayskull falls. He-man holds half of the power sword, and the other half is either held by Skeletor or hidden in Castle Grayskull. If held by Skeletor, then He-man won't give up his half the sword and Skeletor cannot get universal power. If hidden in Castle Grayskull, Skeletor would have to get He-man's sword to get into the castle to get the other half to become Master of the Universe. (Toys, Mini-comics, Movie).
So, in which way did the Ancients build the Power Sword?
In the first scenario, He-man's power would stem from the same source as the Sorceress's power - the ancients. There is no need for a/n (nearly) omnipotent goddess because all of the power stems from the ancients and their control over the universe. In the second scenario, He-man's power stems from the universe, which is uniquely tied to the role of beings on all levels, and he could access the wisdom and power of gods, including the Goddess, which was channelled and manifested by ancients, then hidden in Grayskull.
Of the two, I like the second scenario. The Goddess exists as the Guardian of Eternia, and can hold sway over a thousand times one-thousand dimensions as was stated in the DC comic. She can easily be destroyed by the misuse of the Power Sword by Skeletor to create the Sorceress and Teela as seperate entities.
The Goddess is tied to the Snake-man through the Staff of Ka. This weapon loans a certain omniscience to the wielder. The Snake-men once used it to try to take over Eternia. The Goddess defeated the snake-men and usurped control of the Staff of Ka. Now that she has control over the design of the dimension, the Staff of Ka speaks only the future that she dictates as a goddess. With the Goddess rent in two by Skeletor, the Staff of Ka ends up in the hands of Teela. The staff continues to speak only the future that the goddess dictates. Since the Goddess is Teela, Teela doesn't realize that the staff of talking to her. She senses it as only another voice in her head.
To back this theory up, lets look at the Council of Elders (the Ancients): We know Zodac is one, and we can easily guess that Edlor is one. Zodac's role is the cosmic enforcer, he makes happen what needs to happen. Eldor has the Book of Life, in which is written an account of all things. How does Zodac know what needs to happen? Who designs the events dictated in the Book of Life? These are easily answered with the inclusion of the Goddess. Although Eldor and the other ancients have passed on, Zodac remains to intercede between the Eternians and the universal design. He functions somewhere between a priest and an angel.
Procrustus is really just a titan. If you examine the primordial gods of earth, then tend to be glorified or conscious aspects of nature. Procrustus is like the sentient anthropomorphism of gravity.
I could not comment on the overlords of Trolla - I have no idea how they play into anything. I feel so confused by their inclusion in all of this. The Etherian First Ones always functioned much like the Council of Ancients. They make up an order who dictate the culture. They are subject to greater forces, but make it work. I could see the Overlords fo Trolla also fitting in this way, and not having much influence over any world other than Trolla. It almost sets it up where every planet has a group of wise leaders who make decisions for the planets behalf. I bet each has a Zodac to intercede and speak to the higher Overlord of the Eternal Dimension, on which the Gods (the Goddess included) wage their wars.
This is where I would like to Introduce Horde Prime. We know the purpose of the Horde is the imperialist conquering of other dimensions. What if the Horde is like the Borg, moving from world to world in an effort to build a greater realm. What if they have a greedy diety who is seeking to unite all of the dimension, like Qin the Conquerer of China: take over all of the kingdoms, and make yourself emperor. Horde Prime could be the destroyer god of an alternate dimension whom the Goddess is protecting Eternia from. If Eternia falls, our entire universe falls (Earth included). He-man fights with the sword of power to defend the planet and the castle from falling from horde troops, like pawns in a game of chess.
-Necrono (with Cliff Notes from the Eternian Book of Life, available in your local Hall of Wisdom).
I think you've (Necrono) got off course a bit on the erronous point that I made earlier, which is that Teela is a clone of The Goddess, when she's actually a clone of the sorceress. This completely removes Teela from any form of pantheon, as she is no longer a clone of The Goddess, but rather a clone of the magic weilding Sorceress. The Sorceress was at no point divine, but rather a normal human who has been lent magic for the mystic protection of Castle Grayskull.
Also, I don't believe there substantial proof to conclude that He-Man must be defeated before Castle Grayskull would fall. In the movie, Grayskull was already under Skeletor's control. His dominance over He-Man didn't come out of a need to take control of Grayskull's power, but rather to break the moral of Eternia and rule over the planet. Skeletor himself said that killing him wouldn't do it, he didn't need to destroy He-Man, he wanted He-Man to kneel before him to break the spirit of his enemies.
The mini-comics are a bit more complicated because the story changes, but Skeletor seemed to always be focused on getting the secrets of Grayskull first, and only focused on the fall of He-Man as a powerful man who stood in his way, and not someone who's fall had to precipitate the fall of Grayskull.
And I think that all of the questions you posed in your bit about the ancients (such as how Zodac knows what needs to happen) are answered by the Overlords, and not the ancients, who, according to Disks of Knowledge no longer exist. However Zodac does still take his orders from the Overlords of the Timeless Dimension (or Eternal, whichever you prefer).
Well now I have eat all my popcorn... good discussion this one.
Lets go for the basis, I propose this to organize our work:
- Identify all the possible Pantheon members in this thread
- Make a list and submit it to everyone approval trough a poll
- Start a thread to make proper bios for them by "era/canon/media"
- Write the result in the He-man.org encyclopedia
With this done we could start a thread to just discuss the conclusions and implications of everything that we discover in the process.
Anyone interested in make this real?
Or everyone just want to talk about his own ideas?
Either way, Teela's position is unresolved, she's not aware of her origin as a clone, and not aware of the power she may have because of it, so that excludes her from being classified as a god, at least for the time being.
We wont have any solid answer to your question though until we get the bios for The Goddess and Sorceress, even then the questions may not be fully answered.
Ulisses31, I don't think we could write it in the .Org Encyclopeida as its not official, surely?
Thanks for all the info guys, especially Emiliano, lots of interesting things there.
And I think we can edit the Encyclopedia like in Wikipedia, I will check...
Yes we can...
It must contain only official informations, not fan speculations or theories.
As good as they may be, they are just that.
You're free to add any of the existing info to the Encylopedia, like the Overlords of the Timeless Dimension as MOTUC canon and the Overlords of the Eternal Dimension as Filmation and 200x Comic canon, but not more than that.
Editors check entries, and if there is something that is more fan-fiction than facts, it would be rejected, sorry!
If you turn to page 13 of "The Tale of Teela"...
... You'll see that the Goddess and Teela merge together to form one super entity. Although chronologically the Sorceress has not been introduced yet, we have moments where the titles Goddess and Sorceress have started to be interchanged. No canon has ever denied that at some point Teela will again ascend to her rightful place as an ultra-powerful gaurdian. The Goddess as presented in this story is not at full power. The Sorceress is rather weak in many renditions compared to a true diety. Granted, this is inductive rather than deductive, and easily diswayed the moment we get more information from a bio, BUT...
If we were to cross all of the canons as is the purpose of MOTUC's bio cards, could it stand that the fully empowered Goddess pictured on page 13 of the Tale of Teela is the story-line equivalent of the Green Goddess, that snake-armor Teela who is referred to as both Goddess and Sorceress will become the MOTUC canon Sorceress, and that Teela remains the ferocious human avatar who will one day become the story-line equivalent of the Green Goddess, the Goddess that we are discussing in this thread? Essentially Teela + Sorceress = Goddess: both Teela and the Sorcerss exist simultaneously as part of something greater than either one.
Huh? Huh? *nudge nudge* :D :D :D
P.S. Watch MOTUC bios turn her into some sort of illusion made by the Sorceress to Train He-man. "She looks like Teela to teach He-man a lesson about facing adversity and pity."
We could help on making a list of the OFFICIAL Pantheon trough all eras, and then we could make his descriptions to insert in the Encyclopedia... by era... like is meant to be done in the Encyclopedia.
I was not speaking about fan-creations... I was speaking about this list:
* The Goddess in all his incarnations.
* The Overlords of the Eternal Dimension
* Demon from Despondos (when it get avaliable)
* The First Ones
* The Ancients
* Horde Prime?
* More that we can dig from official media...
But it could also stand to reason that The Goddess is a character of higher standing than the Sorceress and Teela even if they were rejoined together. I just think that they'll make The Goddess a completely different character. She was the trainer of He-Man, that we know. What other purpose she has we don't know. But I think we'll also get a Sorceress who is the guardian of Grayskull, and not necessarily two lesser beings that make up one greater.
But if by your theory Sorceress and Teela make up The Goddess and she trained He-Man, then He-Man must be pretty old to have been trained before The Goddess was torn in two, or the two halves must have unified for some time while He-Man was trained, then re-seperated after and the knowledge removed from Teela's mind.
They really do like creating more questions than answers with MOTUC.