Toyguru Mattycollector.com MOTUC News Thread September 2011

Muerto @ chicken suits and size. :lol:

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Hi TG,
For MOTUC, when you get to Queen Angella, do you think you will go with the Filmation version, or the She-Ra toy line version? Or will you poll fans? I think most will want the Filmation version.

Also, is Clawdeen on the table?

We tend to leave design choices like this up to the Horsemen who for the most part have said they will aim to do a version of each character likely taking inspiration from all versions.

One note on the POP characters in general is that for MOTUC we are treating them as action figures, not dolls. So when we look at the vintage POP toys (which were dolls) we try to imagine how the POP girls would have looked had they been done instead as female action figures in the MOTU vintage line (like Teela or Sorceress etc...) and update them into Classics figures (rather then update the dolls).

You can see how this was done for Adora, She-Ra, Bow, Catra and the Star Sisters (see, who says we haven't done POP! There have been more POP then Snake Men so far!)

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I guess this kills some of the hope for toy-based Star Sisters. :( This answer is really kind of frustrating, because there's no way that Starla and Tallstar would be "dolls" by giving them their toy outfits in sculpted plastic.

So I guess no updated Fantastic Fashions either?

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The reason that I'm upset, is because they keep making disparaging remarks about the classic POP toys and giving fans of those versions the runaround. The toy designs were obviously good enough to update in MOTUC before Mattel learned they could make style-guide versions all along, and obtained the rights to Filmation looks, yet now many of their answers amount to: "Icky dolls!" in reference to the vintage toys.

Total slap in the face to hardcore vintage toy fans who have been supporting this line.

Moreover, in Scott's own words, "too girly" wasn't supposed to be a problem in this line anyway. I also specifically asked if secondary POP characters in their toy line designs were a real possibility in this line and they said yes! They also said, while they wouldn't be doing Fantastic Fashions as standalone SKUS, they certainly could do use them on a POP character as a new update. So what gives? I'm tired of Mattel hiding behind this notion of: "Toy line POP doesn't fit in with MOTUC" when Flipshot/Icarius looks nothing like most of the MOTU figures. (He looks awesome, but let's be real)

And while I realize that their response says "in general", the fact that they keep badmouthing toy line POP just makes it seem like they're giving false hope.

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Originally Posted by Tallstar

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The reason that I'm upset, is because they keep making disparaging remarks about the classic POP toys and giving fans of those versions the runaround. The toy designs were obviously good enough to update in MOTUC before Mattel learned they could make style-guide versions all along, and obtained the rights to Filmation looks, yet now many of their answers amount to: "Icky dolls!" in reference to the vintage toys.

Total slap in the face to hardcore vintage toy fans who have been supporting this line.

Moreover, in Scott's own words, "too girly" wasn't supposed to be a problem in this line anyway. I also specifically asked if secondary POP characters in their toy line designs were a real possibility in this line and they said yes! They also said, while they wouldn't be doing Fantastic Fashions as standalone SKUS, they certainly could do use them on a POP character as a new update. So what gives? I'm tired of Mattel hiding behind this notion of: "Toy line POP doesn't fit in with MOTUC" when Flipshot/Icarius looks nothing like most of the MOTU figures. (He looks awesome, but let's be real)

And while I realize that their response says "in general", the fact that they keep badmouthing toy line POP just makes it seem like they're giving false hope.

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I totally agree 100%.

Im already beaten by the attitudes, I cant scream in a vacuum anymore!

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Originally Posted by Staff Of Ka

I totally agree 100%.

Im already beaten by the attitudes, I cant scream in a vacuum anymore!

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I really feel Mattel owes vintage POP toy fans an apology.

The ol' "Horsemen make ALL the design decisions defense" is still being used... What about the mandates from upper management? Those are not 4H decisions, so that means Mattel CAN override the Horsemen... right? Doesn't that on itself defeat the whole 4H design defense?

I rarely see that inspiration "from all versions" in POP all I see is "Make 'em as Filmation as possible and throw in some sort of vintage doll detail or accessory thing so we can shut those suckers up!"

Action Figures ARE DOLLS! (AF is just a slightly "manlier" term for dolls cause some people objected to the thought of boys playing with dolls) That part of defending the Filmation/Styleguide look is shot down.

All I see is a double standard. With MOTU, they go ALL the way to recreate the Vintage figure that they even add the dials and buttons, but with POP they try to keep as far away from the vintage toy designs as possible."

I know that Filmation/Styleguide look sells, but how can we honor the TRUE PoP when Mattel themselves dismiss it.

Let's take a look at Toy She-Ra and how can "The Classicizer Machine" COULD take her "Doll" Look and make it work as an action figure
Obviously she'd reuse the BP She-Ra arms and legs, 1.0's Holey head and Tiara, her shield and combaxe.
Now the New parts are where the trick lies.
-Her Skirt: While the toy's skirt is translucent and frilly (which Mattel is afraid of) We can TAKE the shape (which is almost Preternian Loincloth-like) and make it a skirt-like loincloth with enough leg-room to ride her steed
-Obviously her bodice would be a new piece with her vintage Spiral emblem and asymmetrical top for Toy accuracy
-Her Cape would have to be new in order to integrate two things that make Toy She-Ra different from Toon She-Ra: No necklace and the frilly white part. Her toy chest is attached from under the shoulders, which could be done in MOTUC, Now the frilly white part could be made into a more Shoulderpad-like piece.
and there you have it! Toy accurate and more Action-figure like.

Same thing could be done to Angella's Skirt, or Catra's Toy-look.

I feel that this is more of a TG doesn't like PoP toys more than a design thing... The toys look more magic/fantasy than the "I just stepped out of an 80s aerobics class" Filmation look.
Now, while I'm defending the toy looks, it does NOT mean that I hate the Filmation looks (I prefer Filmation Castaspella colors, Love Filmation Glimmer's head) but I feel insulted by the reasons Mattel is using to dismiss the doll designs.

DO4M, excellent post! Though, I don't believe "upper management" cares one way or another. I do think that Toyguru makes the final decisions with regard to POP designs.. Or any designs. He's the brand manager. The 4H are the designers, but they are under contract. Scott can make them change anything. Pretending otherwise is just pointless.

Scott's comment that the vintage toys were "dolls" just sounds silly.

The innovative thing about them was that they were ACTION FIGURES for girls. They were action figures with doll characteristics.

The only difference between POP figures and MOTU figures was the rooted hair.

Scareglow and King Randor both had soft-goods/material (their capes).

So were they "dolls?"

Was 200X She-Ra a "doll" then? It seems to be that Scott would say yes.

Maybe Scott didn't collect or play with POP figures, but countless boys DID. Most only had a couple of them, but this labeling of the vintage POP figures as dolls is clearly antagonistic.

I love how he makes that comment at the end:

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see? who says we haven't done POP!

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NO ONE said that. That wasn't part of the person's question. So why bring it up?

How much do you want to bet there is no more POP in 2012?

The bottom line is that its all about money. The Filmation cartoon is the most iconic look of the POP characters, thus Mattel has decided to go in this direction to make the most cohesive look for MOTUC. Factored into this decision is that the original POP toy line was never as successful as the Masters line. They feel that more people will likely buy the Filmation/Style Guide look thus making it more profitable to go in this direction. I too think that the toy based fans of the figures are "more loud than they are numerous" - to quote Mattel. If fans of the toy based figures don't like the direction, stop buying the figures. That will be more constructive (and loudly heard by Mattel) than endlessly rehashing this over and over again in forums and throwing hate rhetoric at Mattel. I think we should all be happy that we are even getting POP at all in this line. I for one think the figures that we have gotten thus far (and including the Star Sisters) are fantastic as they have been produced.

I agree with Tallstar, Staff of Ka, DO4M and bcrduke.

This answer/comment is just ridiculous and leaning towards rude. If 80's toy She-Ra was made in the MOTU line, you know what she would have looked like? The same. All characters with long hair had rooted hair in the 80's line and the New Adventure line (Tytus, Megator, Battle Blade Skeletor) and all characters with capes had material capes (King Randor, Scareglow) and Ninjor has the cloth shirt/hood. The ONLY thing that might have been different is plastic, removable skirts (Blade).

Even other action figure lines around the time and past then had female characters or male characters with long hair, rooted: Filmation Ghostbusters, Spawn, Wetworks, etc.

I mean, really? If PoP was made in 80's MOTU it would be less detailed and have a 100% different design? I don't think so. Look at action figures that became Barbies. They're pretty much the same, just material outfits and rooted hair.

Don't feed me that B.S.

The only hints of PoP toys that the figures have are their accessories and that's uncalled for (outside Bubble Power She-Ra who is AWESOME and a TRUE PoP figure!). They are Filmation, which Toyguru keeps saying they "won't do and that they would have to make a separate animated line, which they won't do." He says they will make them in the style of MOTU so they look like they fit and have more details. Adora, She-Ra, Catra, Shadow Beast, Queen Marlena and Cringer say otherwise...:hmshift:

The majority of the MOTUC figures in this line are based on the original figures + other media for inspiration which is awesome. They do the exact opposite for PoP. They use the limitation of 80's animation to deliver figures...which they are not doing for MOTU. I want a cohesive, unified toyline. PoP isn't on the same level of the rest of MOTU (except for Bow and Bubble Power She-Ra). :( Also, the first wave of PoP (Queen Angella, She-Ra, Glimmer, Bow) all sold more figures than the first figures of MOTU. Because of the cartoons...probably? However, the fact that they sold so well and they "didn't look like the cartoon" is also telling. :p

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Originally Posted by bcrduke

DO4M, excellent post! Though, I don't believe "upper management" cares one way or another. I do think that Toyguru makes the final decisions with regard to POP designs.. Or any designs. He's the brand manager. The 4H are the designers, but they are under contract. Scott can make them change anything. Pretending otherwise is just pointless.

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I just used "upper management" in the same way it was used against 200X stuff... I DO believe that Scott is the "upper management" when used on the "Matty defensive answers"

Now back to the topic.
Yes, I know that Filmation sells and is the less "eww, too girly!" look for PoP, but I'd prefer to hear something along the lines: "We chose the Styleguide designs for PoP, due to it being the most iconic look, beyond the fans of the toyline. We may throw a nod here and there to the vintage toyline, but characters whose designs are different enough to warrant a toy version, we'll try to work one out. Characters like She-Ra or Catra who have different looks that could be incorporated into the line and be much more then a repaint."
Sound familiar? It's the same 200X response. No "doll" problems that sound a tad antagonistic, and it sounds a bit more honest than the current answer.

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Originally Posted by Darkspecter

Also, the first wave of PoP (Queen Angella, She-Ra, Glimmer, Bow) all sold more figures than the first figures of MOTU. Because of the cartoons...probably? However, the fact that they sold so well and they "didn't look like the cartoon" is also telling. :p

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Would they have sold even better if they looked more like the cartoon though? It's hard to prove either side of this argument. POP was targeted at young girls and I highly doubt there were countless boys who actually asked for or collected them when they were younger. How many of those girls do you think collect MOTUC today? They are a minority I'm sure, so I can see why Mattel is not looking to the vintage POP toys for inspiration as much as they are the Filmation and style guides.

Interesting point about the early POP figures. It probably had a lot to do with POP riding on the success of MOTU and Filmation at the time which the first figures of the MOTU line didn't have going for them yet.

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Originally Posted by JonWes

I mean this entirely respectfully but...

uh... what?

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Yeah, what?

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Originally Posted by Zodach

Would they have sold even better if they looked more like the cartoon though? It's hard to prove either side of this argument. POP was targeted at young girls and I highly doubt there were countless boys who actually asked for or collected them when they were younger. How many of those girls do you think collect MOTUC today? They are a minority I'm sure, so I can see why Mattel is not looking to the vintage POP toys for inspiration as much as they are the Filmation and style guides.

Interesting point about the early POP figures. It probably had a lot to do with POP riding on the success of MOTU and Filmation at the time which the first figures of the MOTU line didn't have going for them yet.

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Well, if Mattel actually advertised PoP in places like...their Barbie site, magazine, doll collecting...stuff, etc. I'm sure more women that LOVED them as kids would be collecting them. I have randomly come across a few women that have posted on message boards or blogs about finding out about PoP coming back and not knowing it. I think there was another woman on Flickr that posted her pics of Adora or She-Ra (I forget which).

I mean, the only real advertising they do was ToyFare magazine (gone) and sending out review sample to action figure sites. If they advertised PoP (originally a doll as action figures line in the 80's) on doll sites, I'm sure they would get more customers. Maybe not subscribers, but for sure more sales of PoP stuff. I mean...people that only care about My Little Pony or something probably wouldn't be picking up ToyFare (if it was still in print), right? :lol:

It's like how Toyguru kept saying they were "preaching to the choir" about advertisements and stuff, well, not if they post PoP ads in places they will find customers most likely not looking at the .org, MattyCollector or ToyFare.

Varied advertisement = good. :)

Advertising for the MOTUC line in general is minimal if non-existent. I think it would be hard to generate much interest in POP figures that only come out 2-3 times a year. I don't think there's a huge upside to marketing these $20+ action figures outside of the online collector community. The price would turn a lot of people away even if they were interested in the figures.

I'm just really tired of all this nonsense from Mattel.

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Originally Posted by Tallstar

I'm just really tired of all this nonsense from Mattel.

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They're peeing on our legs and telling us it's raining! Then saying, yellow rain's just like we remember! :lol:

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Originally Posted by Darkspecter

They're peeing on our legs and telling us it's raining! Then saying, yellow rain's just like we remember! :lol:

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:lol: I know, right?

Seriously, they tell us: "if fans ask for it, we'll make it." Well, we did that and look what happened.

They've set it up so that Filmation will always come out as the winning vote.

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Originally Posted by Darkspecter

However, the fact that they sold so well and they "didn't look like the cartoon" is also telling. :p

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Some toy/toy-like versions were featured in their own special animated episode, so that should add to the "history". :p

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/ft36AZ8RPQU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

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Originally Posted by Tallstar

:lol: I know, right?

Seriously, they tell us: "if fans ask for it, we'll make it." Well, we did that and look what happened.

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Yeah. :( Regardless of that ridiculous answer, Bubble Power She-Ra gives me high hopes for the next PoP we see. She's amazing and aside from her chest design, she's pure toy PoP! :D

So...let's pray for more toy designs/influences because BP She-Ra seems to be a major hit so far, unlike She-Ra 1.0. :shlol:

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Some toy/toy-like versions were featured in their own special animated episode, so that should add to the "history". :p

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I love how everyone looks in the commercial except for Frosta's skirt (looks weird straight cut instead of like the toy and Filmation's "triangles"). :lol: Everyone else looks superb. :)

Folks, please remember that it's perfectly fine to voice your opinions and displeasure, but please do so in a respectful manner. Calling people names or even calling them "liars" is not cool.

It's Power-Con weekend, let's lighten up and have some fun. :)

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Originally Posted by csc0709

The bottom line is that its all about money. The Filmation cartoon is the most iconic look of the POP characters, thus Mattel has decided to go in this direction to make the most cohesive look for MOTUC. Factored into this decision is that the original POP toy line was never as successful as the Masters line. They feel that more people will likely buy the Filmation/Style Guide look thus making it more profitable to go in this direction. I too think that the toy based fans of the figures are "more loud than they are numerous" - to quote Mattel. If fans of the toy based figures don't like the direction, stop buying the figures. That will be more constructive (and loudly heard by Mattel) than endlessly rehashing this over and over again in forums and throwing hate rhetoric at Mattel. I think we should all be happy that we are even getting POP at all in this line. I for one think the figures that we have gotten thus far (and including the Star Sisters) are fantastic as they have been produced.

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What he said. :)

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Originally Posted by bcrduke

How much do you want to bet there is no more POP in 2012?

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I'll take that bet. POP didn't have a regular monthly release announced yet in 2012. The last thing TG wants to do is exhaust vintage MOTU characters. The more POP and NA characters, the longer the line lasts.

I'm sure we'll see someone else POP in 2012.

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Originally Posted by MegaGearMax

I'll take that bet. POP didn't have a regular monthly release announced yet in 2012. The last thing TG wants to do is exhaust vintage MOTU characters. The more POP and NA characters, the longer the line lasts.

I'm sure we'll see someone else POP in 2012.

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I agree . . .

Totally agree. I'd say we have at least one more on the way for sure.

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So when we look at the vintage POP toys (which were dolls)

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sounds more like a statement of fact to me than TG attempting to bash POP. Granted, TG doesn't always do the best job of communicating with fans in a clear manner, but I think people are just nit-picking about this answer.

While similar to vintage MOTU figures, the vintage POP figures were presented as dolls aimed at girls, with the rooted hair, combs, and extra clothing. With MOTUC, we've seen the POP characters re-imagined under the unifying design of sculpted hair. I think this is what Toy Guru was trying to explain, I just did it better. :sklol:

Personally I liked the answer, those toys were made for girls and the desgin choices have been very compelling (with the exception of the comb weapon accessories I could do without these). When I saw Bow was announced at SDCC 2010 it made me cringe, but after seeing the reveal he was one of the top reveals (along with Vikor), So far the only POP question mark for me is the Star Sisters, and that could have a lot to do with it being a $60 3 pack? Sometimes saying nothing at all is the best thing to do, because it just brings attention where it's not needed (See Deangelo Hall this week). And while I may seem like a POP hater, but I think many of the characters add to the MOTU mythos, I just am not a fan of the vintage POP toy designs.

And I don't exactly love virtual copies of vintage MOTU figures either, I would rather get updated more modern looks to many of them, personally Sy-Klone, Stratos, and a few others are extremely bland.

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Originally Posted by Eternia Burning

sounds more like a statement of fact to me than TG attempting to bash POP. Granted, TG doesn't always do the best job of communicating with fans in a clear manner, but I think people are just nit-picking about this answer.

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It's negative because he keeps referencing dolls like it's a bad thing, when "too girly" wasn't supposed to be a problem in this line.

He's attempting to make it out like toy versions wouldn't fit in with MOTUC, and I have a big problem with that for all the reasons that I stated in my initial post on the matter. I'm not sure why some of you aren't holding Mattel accountable for their past statements with regard to toy versions in MOTUC? Even if some of you folks are bigger fans of Filmation looks, I would hope that we could all agree that it's not right for Mattel to lead on the toy fans for so many years.

And it's not just based on that one response.

When you collectively look at the treatment that hardcore POP toy fans have been getting, history shows that we've been crapped on many times.

For almost 2 years Mattel led us to believe that POP characters in MOTUC would mainly draw from the vintage toys, only to have them drop that idea like a hot potato once they realized they could make them like the style guide.

Then they played-off the Swift Wind vote like folks were actually voting for Filmation Swift Wind instead of Royal Swift Wind.

Then they disregarded the fact that toy-based Star Sisters were the most popular through the years and went with versions that were barely discussed in the context of toys. That or they didn't bother reading the boards to make the determination. Insulting.

To top it off, they've kept hope alive this whole time by confirming that toy line POP is a real possibility in MOTUC, that A-List variants could be secondary POP characters, Fantastic Fashions could be used on the POP gals to create new concepts, too girly isn't a problem etc.

Now they're going back to the lame "they're dolls" argument?

Sorry, that's messing with fans' emotions.

While I totally understand that style guide is more popular (in most cases), they don't seem to care that there are true hardcore fans of the classic POP toy line that are feeling disregarded, hurt etc. by their comments/actions.

here we go again....:hmroll: