Official Masters of the Universe #5 (Vol.3) Talkback

[Dr.Nick]

The thing that I am confused about is that Keldor met Evil-Lyn during a raid when they were about the same age. Also if Raldor is Keldor's brother, they must be pretty old.

P.S.

Val,

If the comic is going to end very soon, will we ever get the finally answer to two major questions since Masters Of the Universe has been around. Is Keldor, Randor's brother and who is Teela's father? These mysteries need to be addressed before the comic ends. It would make the perfect ending to this version.

[Lucas Redux]

I think its safe to assume there is time travel involved for both Keldor and Evil-lyn at some point in her abducted life. Personally I don't care for the technique of taking a straightforward scene and adding an Ulterior-motive layer like in Price of Deciet and Keldor's now false introduction. That's not to say its a contradiction at all, merely a minor retcon.

http://www.he-man.org/primary_sects/...50/07-08.shtml

I suspect King Hiss got his emmissary/mysterious ally a bit like that page above. A magical stranger with power promising to help out king hiss in his battle against the ancients. Basically the unmade (and now still going to be unmade) Powers of Grayskull He-ro/Keldor story.

[bskcase]

I have no doubt that Emilliano and Val were reading the MINI comics when they wrote this issue. I just hope that we get an explaination on the Council, how Keldor went back in time and delivered Evil-lyn in the present and met her again as a grown up.

Time travel gives me a headache.

[npbaity]

Time travel gives me a headache.

It is a very tricky thing to pull off!

Long Live MOTU!!!!
In 2004 and ALWAYS!!!!

[Baena]

Okay, I've had some time to digest this... and read a bit in this thread.

This is how the Eternian timeline makes sense for me. Now granted I'm not the brightest beam in the block, so please bear with me and feel free to note something if what I type here is inconsistent, I'll take no offense to being corrected. But hopefully this may help some of us see where this story takes place in time.

Also know that just because I've done some covers... I have no idea where Val and Emiliano and Lori are taking this story. I'm enjoying the ride like the rest of you with no inside information. If any of you three could look at this post and tell me if I'm hot or cold... please do!

Here's how my mind has wrapped around the history of Eternia in this new continuity MYP and MVC told:

King Grayskull's age:
- Snakemen and Grayskull's forces battling
- Horde defeats Snakemen.
- Hordak performs the Separation spell
- Horde attempts to overtake Grayskull, and fails, result is Hordak and the Horde are banished to the dimension of Dispondos.
- King Grayskull dies in final battle with the Horde, empowers the Elders with the Power of Grayskull.
- With the Horde gone, remaining snakemen rebuild at Snake Mountain over many many years. Generations even?
- Elders build the Hall of Wisdom and rule from there?
- Zodak's brother eaten by King Hsss at a Snake mountain that is clearly serpos in a jungle setting.

He-Ro's age:
- Coucil of Wisdom (issue #5) consists of the "heros" of this age, including:
He-Ro, Eldor, Big guy in clothing bearing emblems that She-Ra also bears, Blue lady, turtle guy, etc... check out the comic right?
- He-Ro and "She-Ra like guy" = decendants of Grayskull? Continuing line to future kings like Miro and Randor? *ouch, except that whole not taking spouses or procreating! doh!* Hmmmmmmmm. Needless to say time goes on.
- Evil Lyn is born, Faceless one banished, Evil Lyn taken by a Sorcerer that could be Keldor... but not necessarily. The ram staff is given to Evil Lyn's new care taker.
- He-Ro ultimately banishes Snakemen. (as seen in Vol.1 #2)

King Miro's age to King Randor's age:
- King Miro battles Marzo
- Capitain Randor fights Keldor and his forces, including a very mature and powerful Evil Lyn.
- Keldor and his forces banished to Dark Hemisphere.
- Keldor dies... Skeletor is born, created by Hordak.
- The Great Unrest
- Sorceress leaves Grayskull temporarily, falls in love with wounded soldier, she bears his child - Teela is born and given to Man-At-Arms to be raised by him.
- Adam recieves Grayskull's sword and becomes the prophesied hero...

... He-Man!

So you can see with this issue, things are foggy, but they can work in a timeline... well, this timeline that I've come up with anyway.

I'm expecting this post to be torn apart by those of you who are much more versed in the history of Eternia... a facinating subject that I find myself somewhat novice.

Sorry 'bout the long post. As if there wasn't enough of that in this thread.

[PanMan]

well we saw that skeletor was using teleportation in volume 2. maybe he also found out how to use time travel as well from that? that's not my best theory, but i thought i'd throw that out there since nobody else has. actually now that i thought about it, it's not right since he was skeletor, not keldor when he developed those powers.

and something i just noticed. . . there is a female snake-guard in snakemountain on page 8 on the second last frame. and i also wonder if that is Lord Dactus (how long do they live?), or if it is some descendant of Lord Dactus (and possibly working a deal to defeat the Caligars? i know they were friends in Captain Randor's day, but maybe they were constant enemies and friends?) regardless, i wonder what that Spalean wanted there.

[Oceanwalker]

Okay, I've had some time to digest this... and read a bit in this thread.

This is how the Eternian timeline makes sense for me. Now granted I'm not the brightest beam in the block, so please bear with me and feel free to note something if what I type here is inconsistent, I'll take no offense to being corrected. But hopefully this may help some of us see where this story takes place in time.

Also know that just because I've done some covers... I have no idea where Val and Emiliano and Lori are taking this story. I'm enjoying the ride like the rest of you with no inside information. If any of you three could look at this post and tell me if I'm hot or cold... please do!

Here's how my mind has wrapped around the history of Eternia in this new continuity MYP and MVC told:

King Grayskull's age:
- Snakemen and Grayskull's forces battling
- Horde defeats Snakemen.
- Hordak performs the Separation spell
- Horde attempts to overtake Grayskull, and fails, result is Hordak and the Horde are banished to the dimension of Dispondos.
- King Grayskull dies in final battle with the Horde, empowers the Elders with the Power of Grayskull.
- With the Horde gone, remaining snakemen rebuild at Snake Mountain over many many years. Generations even?
- Elders build the Hall of Wisdom and rule from there?

He-Ro's age:
- Coucil of Wisdom (issue #5) consists of the "heros" of this age, including:
He-Ro, Eldor, Big guy in clothing bearing emblems that She-Ra also bears, Blue lady, turtle guy, etc... check out the comic right?
- He-Ro and "She-Ra like guy" = decendants of Grayskull? Continuing line to future kings like Miro and Randor? *ouch, except that whole not taking spouses or procreating! doh!* Hmmmmmmmm. Needless to say time goes on.
- Evil Lyn is born, Faceless one banished, Evil Lyn taken by a Sorcerer that could be Keldor... but not necessarily. The ram staff is given to Evil Lyn's new care taker.
- He-Ro ultimately banishes Snakemen. (as seen in Vol.1 #2)

King Miro's age to King Randor's age:
- King Miro battles Marzo
- Capitain Randor fights Keldor and his forces, including a very mature and powerful Evil Lyn.
- Keldor and his forces banished to Dark Hemisphere.
- Keldor dies... Skeletor is born, created by Hordak.
- The Great Unrest
- Sorceress leaves Grayskull temporarily, falls in love with wounded soldier, she bears his child - Teela is born and given to Man-At-Arms to be raised by him.
- Adam recieves Grayskull's sword and becomes the prophesied hero...

... He-Man!

So you can see with this issue, things are foggy, but they can work in a timeline... well, this timeline that I've come up with anyway.

I'm expecting this post to be torn apart by those of you who are much more versed in the history of Eternia... a facinating subject that I find myself somewhat novice.

Sorry 'bout the long post. As if there wasn't enough of that in this thread.

Good post - only thing out of place is this:

Zodak's brother eaten by King Hsss at a Snake mountain that is clearly serpos in a jungle setting.

We can say that the artist of MYP made a mistake and Snake Mountain should've been the desolate version we see now.

It should go somewhere before Serpos begins his rampage.

[Baena]

Good post - only thing out of place is this:

Zodak's brother eaten by King Hsss at a Snake mountain that is clearly serpos in a jungle setting.

We can say that the artist of MYP made a mistake and Snake Mountain should've been the desolate version we see now.

It should go somewhere before Serpos begins his rampage.

Maybe. I can see where your coming from. Especially when you think... was there even a Snake mountain at the time of King Grayskull? What was Serpos doing at that time? If he was in the stone prison that is Snake Mountain, then who put him there waaaaaaay back then? Good point indeed.

I guess I'm trying to give MYP some credit. They're artists, they think about things. If they were always painting Snake mountain in the dark hemisphere, very desolate... then there must have been a good reason as to why they painted it in jungle back with Zodak and his brother. They're well aware of Hordak's separation and decided that the Hsss/Zodak's bro battle happened before the spell of separation. And for the spell of separation? Hordak must have done it while he was on Eternia - in full power, thus before he battled King Grayskull.

Now this is just my reasoning thus far based on what info we've been given in the new continuity. That's why I wrote what I wrote in my understanding of the continuity.

heh heh, then again... they're artists... and possibly just got sick of painting Snake mountain in that dark hemisphere light, so they decided for one scene to lighten up a bit? I highly doubt this however.

See, with art, you can pull any story out of it you want.

Here's yet another interpretation...

Was Serpos always banished to the the same rock that is the current location of Snake Mountain? Or... was he frozen in rock on other locations on Eternia? Hmmmmmm?

[Lucas Redux]

I assume incompleteness on the jungle issue for the fictional universe's sake. It has been shown as jungle consistently save for one scene - the snakmen banishment. Incomplete meaning maybe just maybe it is our mistake to assume that the spell of separation is responsible and that instead there is something untold responsible, such as some angry Elders in their war just as an example, or delayed separation effects as a different one. (of course its just a real world mistake but hey)

[HeManOfGreyskull]

Didn't one of the MYP people say they'd screwed up on the flashback during "Snake Pit" and it was supposed to be the Snake Men marching through the Jungle setting?

It also seems to me that the planetary changes(ie, Caverns of Rakaash to Sea of Rakaash, Jungle to lava zone) that resulted from the Spell of Seperation took some time. One could argue that now, the three towers could emerge at some point due to the second casting of the Spell of Seperation by Two-Bad, and the expected geological upheaval.

[Amanzon]

I thought the issue was great. Beautiful stuff, art and story. I'm not too married to previous continuities or the cartoon continuity. By reading the story, the love of these characters and universe really shine through. Given the chance, I'm sure Val and crew would continue to create backstories and new stories that would make complete sense for their vision. What more can you ask of storytellers and artists...

As far as the current story, it's plausible that if Evil-Lyn was born in Eternia's past, that she was propelled forward in time as a baby and given to the Faceless One in the ruins of Zalesia to raise. She'd be relatively the same age as when born in the past, still know that the Faceless One was her father, and this still allows her to meet Keldor in the cartoon version of their meeting.

I wouldn't be surprised if the cloaked figure is Keldor in Eternia's past and recognized or had a suspicion that Evil-Lyn was the baby he propelled through time when they meet a la the cartoon version. Kinda still keeps the surprise, yet one-step-ahead of Evil-Lyn vibe he's had over her. Totally my conjecture, but just playing off what others have mentioned in this thread.

What I like about the backstory of the Faceless One and Evil-Lyn is how it subtley plays off what has happened in the recent cartoon episodes. This orgin plays off the anti-hero vibe the Faceless One has had and his utter devotion to his daughter - it's literally the last thing that made him feel human. That would be a hard thing to let go off.

If Evil-Lyn was raised by him, his past and retellings of his history to his daughter definitely and probably helped in setting her on her maniacal, self-serving path. The Faceless One in his actions to Evil-Lyn has definitely shown some gained wisdom in his countless centuries as a disembodied ghost while enduring his curse. While wicked and self-serving in many ways, Evil-Lyn hasn't shown complete remorselessness to her father, and even to Skeletor. One of the reasons I like her and now the Faceless One, they are complicated characters. Complicated even more by there dealings with Skeletor.

This issue has me amazingly intrigued. How is the Council related to the Cat emblem and the "White Lady". Is the blue-skinned woman and the Cat Woman we won't get to read about somehow linked? I seem to remember her carrying a banner of the 'cat' with her tiger/panther.

Also, why did the cloaked figure offer to save infant Evil-Lyn? Does she play a larger role or was it simply a way to motivate getting the chaos staff? The more I think about it, I think that the cloaked person is Keldor.

As always, I love the little things - use of the Ram Stone and the Council member adorned with the She-Ra insignia.

Here's hoping the team does the eventually black & white fanfic download of how they wanted to originally tell the history of the MOTU. I'd be happy to donate some of the necessities of life to any fan that did that for the sole purpose of entertaining other fans (wink, wink, nudge, nudge.)

All the best to the creators of this great book. I'm lovin' each issue and will continue too.

Scott

[Lucas Redux]

Amazon's point about Lyn ending up with the faceless one inspired a silly possibility which I post only for the sake of discussing the weirdness of time travel and any entertainment others may get from the possibility.

The Faceless one knowing that his daughter was abducted gets a young keldor to go back in time for him and complete the time loop ultimately ending up with his daughter back. Has the side benefit of young Keldor knowing about the Havoc staff much to past Lord Z.'s surprise since future faceless guy knows his own past and past property. Problem - Faceless one doesn't apparently have time travel powers, but time vortexes used to be naturally occuring on 80's eternia, nothings really been said about them now - and Keldor if following in the tracks of his 80's counterpart he traveled by accident - or contacted a big bad nameless one by accident who sent him back. In an even weirder twist an older evil lyn goes back in time following a sex change operation and becomes the lord of Zalesia and later her own father! Apologies to Robert Heinlein.

[Baena]

Personally, I think there are other ways to explain the Keldor/Sorcerer thing.
It is obvious that the Sorcerer who took the staff, and the baby appears to be Keldor, and that very well could be... but there's also the inclusion of other "guar" (if that's what we are going to call them) and that the Guar have similar fasion senses.... so the cloaked Keldor/Sorcerer could be someone else.

I just really hate the idea of bringing time travel into this. Because it would be a cheap fix for explaining things, so in using that cheap fix you open up a huge can of problems. If Keldor can time travel? Well then why didn't he as Skeletor go back to when all his enemies were babies and kidnap or kill them all? Sure he has no idea who He-man is, but boy he hated Randor, and could have got him good, unknowingly destroying He-man in the process... see what I mean? Heck, if he hates being Skeletor, then he could just time travel again to before that battle with Randor and not used acid...thus not ever becoming Skeletor.

Time travel? = No way, don't even go there.

If this is a time travel trick, it dang well better be explained in a very consistent manner otherwise the whole MOTU universe is just a big mess.

If that Sorcerer is indeed Keldor, then I would guess an explination that might be more appropriate would be that Guar and people from Zalesia age differently than the average human?
The only inconsistency lying with the Price of Decite episode, where when Evil Lyn met Keldor, she had heard of him, but didn't know him per se. And Keldor had no idea who she was.

[Lucas Redux]

If he was in the stone prison that is Snake Mountain, then who put him there waaaaaaay back then?

Maybe serpos was a resurrected fossil like Battle Bonez.

Well Baena, given what I consider the probability that this is "the Search for Keldor" 2002 style its kind of ironic how much more accepting I am of time-travel and its legitimacy in the comic despite my negative reputation.

[oICEMANo]

Hmmmm time travel is a messy subject when it comes to stuff like this. Personally I hope that there is no time travel involved and its purely a case of it being Keldor's race lives MUCH longer than regular Eternians or its a relative of Keldor or something like that...

[gbagok]

If there's no time travel involved, then it becomes harder to explain Evil-Lyn unless she too is extremely old.

Great Timeline, Baena! However, isn't Zodak supposed to be involved with banishing the Snake Men? Also, I thought there was a flashback in "Awaken the Serpent," that showed the Elders imprisoning Serpos on the rocky terrain and with a dark sky. I hope I'm misremembering since that would be a hard glitch to reconcile with the rest of the continuity.

Also, I too hate time travel, however it might work if the means by which Keldor is traveling through time is limited. Or if Keldor is not even in control of it, but a higher power (or authority) is sending him back to a time of its own choosing to accomplish several tasks--and along the way Keldor picked up the Havoc Staff and Evil-Lyn. Or maybe someone intervened and stole whatever is allowing Keldor to travel through time before he had a chance to do any damage to the time line.

The one time I liked causality loop stuff was when a villain on Gargoyles went back in time, saved his own life, gave his younger self great powers (including time travel), trained him, and then sent him to go do what he had just done before moving on with his schemes. It even involved collecting magic talismans that became his weapons just like the Havoc Staff! Of course that show's conceit on time travel was that you couldn't change history no matter how hard you tried. Kill Hitler and somebody else would have done what he did and the results would be the same. Everything was predestined. I could buy time travel on Eternia if it worked something like that.

[bskcase]

I think it would be interesting if at some point in the past, The faceless one made a deal with Keldor to bring back Evil-lyn in exchange for the Havoc Staff. Let's assume that Keldor's blue people don't age as fast a humans. A young Keldor who is studying black magic would come accross information about the havoc staff. His magic seems to be based on that style. The faceless one showed up and offered him a deal. It might even be that the Faceless one was disguisded or used a 3rd party to negotiate the deal.

Keldor goes back in time, gets the baby and the havoc staff. Gives the baby to the faceless one and Keldor learns how to use the havoc staff. Keldor might even have forgotten about the baby years later. He wouldn't recongnize her if he met her again as an adult.

There's a few reasons I believe this. Evil-lyn knew that the Faceless one is her father. Somebody had to have taught her magic. She's up there with the most powerful magic users. And its established that Evil-lyn meets up with Keldor later in life.

[Amanzon]

I don't hate time travel so much - this is superhero/scifi/fantasy writing afterall. It's a staple of the genre.

If done well, it opens as many possibilities as it does create headaches (although I find the conundrums kinda fun.)

The biggest thing to do would be to have the time travel come at a price that makes it difficult to do again. Kind of hard since we have many sorcerers, enchantresses and scientists with amazing transdimensional defying powers, but it could be done.

While I enjoy some ground rules in a universe created by superhero/scifi/fantasy writing, I think the minute you limit the "staples" of the genre, you end up limiting the story.

Just my opinion, as I don't mind the time travel aspects and don't expect linear storytelling.

All the best...

Scott

[Vahn]

...I think the minute you limit the "staples" of the genre, you end up limiting the story.

Isn't that exactly what Mattel has been doing to the comic from the beginning? (couldn't resist playing on VAL's name)

[Oceanwalker]

Maybe. I can see where your coming from. Especially when you think... was there even a Snake mountain at the time of King Grayskull? What was Serpos doing at that time? If he was in the stone prison that is Snake Mountain, then who put him there waaaaaaay back then? Good point indeed.

I guess I'm trying to give MYP some credit. They're artists, they think about things. If they were always painting Snake mountain in the dark hemisphere, very desolate... then there must have been a good reason as to why they painted it in jungle back with Zodak and his brother. They're well aware of Hordak's separation and decided that the Hsss/Zodak's bro battle happened before the spell of separation. And for the spell of separation? Hordak must have done it while he was on Eternia - in full power, thus before he battled King Grayskull.

Now this is just my reasoning thus far based on what info we've been given in the new continuity. That's why I wrote what I wrote in my understanding of the continuity.

heh heh, then again... they're artists... and possibly just got sick of painting Snake mountain in that dark hemisphere light, so they decided for one scene to lighten up a bit? I highly doubt this however.

See, with art, you can pull any story out of it you want.

Here's yet another interpretation...

Was Serpos always banished to the the same rock that is the current location of Snake Mountain? Or... was he frozen in rock on other locations on Eternia? Hmmmmmm?

Well, another reason is that Zodak's brother told him to warn the Elders. The Elders weren't in power until King Grayskull died. So, that's why it must go after.

[Baena]

Well, another reason is that Zodak's brother told him to warn the Elders. The Elders weren't in power until King Grayskull died. So, that's why it must go after.

Ah ha! You're right! I stand corrected. Thanks! I'll go edit my big big post now.

Question is... Where does that event fit? Hmmmmmm. *guessing*

[gbagok]

Ah ha! You're right! I stand corrected. Thanks! I'll go edit my big big post now.

Question is... Where does that event fit? Hmmmmmm. *guessing*

Well it could always go right after Hordak's defeat, with the appearance of Snake Mountain being the result of some freak, thus far unexplained occurance. Maybe a really bright comet was passing by and Evilseed was visiting Hsss.

[Lucas Redux]

Well, another reason is that Zodak's brother told him to warn the Elders. The Elders weren't in power until King Grayskull died. So, that's why it must go after.

Unless they were the Elders before their transformation, Elders then being a term much like "defenders" or "Masters." That show would be called King Grayskull and the Elders of Eternia. This might help with certain time line issues but mostly the same ones a delayed separation effect would solve anyway - like the sea of Rakesh taking time to flood.

I don't see any issues with the cartoon's Serpos flashback happening before the Zodac's brother incident accounting for the existence of snakemountain at that point.

Also, I thought there was a flashback in "Awaken the Serpent," that showed the Elders imprisoning Serpos on the rocky terrain and with a dark sky. I hope I'm misremembering since that would be a hard glitch to reconcile with the rest of the continuity.

It was jungle. I don't know how to describe the sky - it always seems king of smoky blue in the snakemountain jungle flashbacks, I don't know whether its me seeing things, jungle steam, or if its a technique for showing an early dark hemisphere starting to get dark.

[Oceanwalker]

Unless they were the Elders before their transformation, Elders then being a term much like "defenders" or "Masters." That show would be called King Grayskull and the Elders of Eternia. This might help with certain time line issues but mostly the same ones a delayed separation effect would solve anyway - like the sea of Rakesh taking time to flood.

Delayed separation effect cures most of what ails. From what I've gathered from the comic and the toon is that maybe Zodak and his brother came to Snake Mt. to prevent King Hiss from getting the medallion of Serpos?

But the only problem with that is that in the comic, King Hiss has a city at the base of the butte and it is clearly the "dark hemisphere."

[TheShadow]

I love issues like this -- ones that make you think!

A second point I like is the issue is He-Man-less. He is the main character and all, but the title is "Masters of the Universe" -- not He-Man. So it is very cool to have stories in which he does not make an appearance.

I really liked the Faceless One in the MYP series, so it was quite nice to see an issue devoted to him since we did not get too much of a spotlight on him in the cartoon.

Dead-on writing once again from Lori, but I expected no less.

Council of Wisdom - this is where I think unnamed characters still work in favor to get the peeps talking. Which, of course, is illustrated in this thread. It makes you think, it makes you ponder... who is that... how does that effect this... Hopefully one day we will get to find out. Keep the mystery alive, same He-Time... same He-Channel.