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Thread: The Official "Console War" and Video Game Thread

  1. #301
    Drinking Innocence TheDeviot's Avatar
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    Famitsu lists some of the Japanese PS3 game prices at retail at launch:
    http://www.gamespot.com/news/6159301.html

    PC gamers won't be able to pirate Vista (Or so they say):
    http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1009_22-6122462.html

    Voodoo PC bought out by HP:
    http://www.gamespot.com/news/6159039.html?q=Voodoo

    PC gaming thoughts by Epic games leader Mark Rein, and Supreme Commander developer Chris Taylor (interesting nugget about Rein's thoughts on Intel can be found in this month's CGW soon to be called GFW)
    http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3153580

    Sony jumps on customization bandwagon:
    http://www.gamespot.com/news/6159277.html

    DS continues to open cans of whoop @$$
    http://www.gamespot.com/news/6159199.html
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  2. #302
    WHAT A GUY
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjclifford
    This particular comment about the Wii is another reason I think Nintendo is on the right path this time. Since the Wii in both hardware and software is basically an upgraded version of the Gamecube, developers won't have learn how to program for the Wii. They can take everything they already learned programming games for Gamecube and apply that knowledge to the Wii and expand upon it.

    That sounds like a very good thing to me. All too often consoles are replaced much too early and developers have to learn a new set of rules for the "next gen" stuff. I think this approach will help Nintendo out with third party developers quite a bit.
    This is what Miyamoto has been saying for a while now.

  3. #303
    Supreme Fudge Dynamo of Eternia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AeroStratos88
    Mario Kart didn't do anything to progress the series sorry. All those characters were in previous games as well as minus 2 power ups. And half the tracks were watered down Retro cup. I stated when Mario Kart DS *in it's own thread. came out that this was a step backwards.
    Well, as Shigsy pointed out, that's just your opinion.

    On top of which, I didn't deny that Mario Kart was rather rehash. Go back and read my previous post if you missed it. I simply made a point about racing games in general which I still stick by.

    And since people don't believe it unless it comes from the horses mouth.

    "- Looking at the titles that have been announced so far, the pace at which games are being released is comparable to the N64 and GC.

    Miyamoto:
    The hardware is basically a GC. We’ve upgraded our development tools to new versions but, you can still use GC programs as they are. With that in mind, I thought we could remake GC titles for the Wii and modify them to work with the Wii remote so that they’re more fun to play.

    - "Games will change. The 64 can change them." was the catch phrase then and they really did change.

    Miyamoto:
    They did but at the same time, there were also a large number of people who weren’t playing games anymore. I think we could clearly see the crowd being split into people who played games and those who didn’t.

    The Birth of the GC after Reflecting on the N64

    - And then came the time of the GC.

    Miyamoto:
    Oh yes, the GC that we created because lots of people in society were still playing games. Aimed at the weakening core market, the GC performed much better than the PS2 and was the superior platform to create games on. However, having the trivial feature of being able to view DVDs too, the PS2 opened up a gap between it and the GC."

    http://www.gamebrink.com/news/602-Mi...ew_Part_2.html

    Yeah so uhm the only reason the GC didn't sell is cause it didn't have a Dvd player. But everyones been screaming already got one don't need another.

    People weren't playing games yeah that's why the PS1 sold 100 million + versus the N64s 32.93 million.

    The man says yep it's a Game Cube and we plan on remaking GC titles with Wii Mote functionality. No rehashes there.

    Give me a break seriously.
    If they do end up actually flat out remaking Gamecube games exactly as they were, or almost exactly with the exception of whatever needs to be changed to work with the Wii-mote, then I will say yeah, you have a point.

    But, that sounds more like a general idea they had and is probably not something they are going to actually do. If it does come to pass, then i will be upset... esspecially if it happens in liu of new games. If it's simply in addition to them, then that's not so bad.

    However, I still stick by my overall point that generally speaking, when Nintendo does make sequels, they tend to do more to advance the series than some of the first party stuff for either PS2 or Xbox, and even a lot of 3rd party stuff. They actually often feel like sequels and not just rehashes. Often times in the cases of those other companies, they feel more like minor upgrades than sequels. Are there exceptions to what I just said on both end? - of course. But In general, that's the way it seems to be. And I say this as someone who owns many games systems from several different companies. I'm not just someone who only uses Nintendo's products and then declares it to be the best without even giving the competition a chance.

    If this trend in Nintendo's game quality does not end up continuing with this new system, then at that point my opinon will change.

    As for the tech basically being the same as the GCN, I agree with what cjclifford said about it being technology that programmers will be able to utilize from the start and not have to learn over the course of time only to finally perfect it just in time for the next technology to come along and have the process start all over again.

    And with this sentiment you have about Nintendo, I honestly wonder why you not only continue to buy their products, but rebuy them for minor cosmetic changes. Again, for a company that you don't seem to think highly of, you seem to like giving them your money over and over again.

    Oh and the PS2 has outsold the PS1 and the GC sold less than the N64 21 million is the number. So if you have that many systems out, any technology period, and your selling em that fast then of course some of them are gonna have problems. It's basic laws of probability the more out there the higher number that's gonna be visible. If you look at the actual number that are "defective" versus the number that aren't and are in homes than you nullify your argument. But we wouldn't want that.
    Look,

    I live in a pretty heavily populated area. I live in Aurora, IL, which is right on the border of Naperville, IL. Now, I don't know if you are familiar with this area, but its been growing rapidly for years, and so things like video games sell huge here.

    The point is this... I know many people who own PS2s and I know many people who own Gamecubes. It may not be exactly 50/50, but its pretty close (now, I am not denying that PS2 has significantly outsold Gamecube, but I just happen to know a lot of people who own a Gamecube). Of those people, I've heard many, many more complaints about PS2's malfunctioning than Gamecubes. In fact, I don't know anyone personally who has had a Gamecube malfunction (at least nothing beyond a momentary, freak glitch that happened once and then never again). Now, I can probably account for about 12 defective PS2's amongst myself and people that I know, out of a total that would only be a few more than that. It could be a coincidence, but its a pretty amazing one for so many defective PS2's to be in one area.

    On top of that, I frequent a couple of different Gamestops and EB Games around here. There is one particular Gamestop that I visit most, but the others I am still at quite a bit. And I've heard more than plenty there about PS2's being defective.

    Now, given the amount of games and game systems that are sold around this area, and given how much I get into lengthy conversations with people at these stores, AND given how many people I know with Gamecubes, there is enough being sold around here that even with Gamecube being the significant underdog, if the percentage of defective Gamecubes were as big as you are claiming it to be, I would have heard at least something about it a long time ago. Again, even the Gamestop employee who posted on one of those defective GCN message boards that you linked to said how he never gets calls about defective GCN's. Even with how much fewer they sell, if they were as defective as you say, they would get at least a few calls with the same consistent problem. As it stands, the defects seem minimal, and no one physical store is getting tons of calls about defects, even in areas that would sell many more units.

    Are the defective ones out there? Sure. But I still strongly believe that the percentage of them that are defective relative to the number being sold is still severly smaller than the percentage of PS2's that are defective relative to the number being sold.

    Again, I didn't go out searching for PS2 defective info. It just came to me through casual conversations with people. Most people whom I've ever spoken to who got a PS2 within the first few years of production (pretty much anything prior to that thin model) have ended up having problems with it. There are only a very few who haven't, and most of them just don't seem to use it very often, thus the same wear and tear is not happening to the system (and the system should be able to stand up to much more wear and tear than these defective ones are going through).

    Granted, my personal experiences are obviously not enough to constitute a scientific study. None the less, there's still enough evidence to at least indicate that there are more issues with PS2. And I have no reason to belive otherwise. You can argue that my experience is nothing more than hearsay, but I can argue the same about those message boards that you linked with people complaing about the Gamecube problems (which again, supported my PS2 arguement in many cases, anyway).

    If you can come up with some specific statistics done through some kind of scientific, non biased method that is rather reliable with a minimal margin of error that flat out compares the % of defective Gamecubes and PS2's relative to the respective number of each console sold, and shows that those percentages are about the same for both systems or even have the Gamecube as being the one with more problems, then maybe I'll have more to consider in your arguement. But until that happens (or something else to make me change my mind) I am sticking with what I currently believe, because thus far the vast majority of evidence that I have been subjected to supports that belief.

    If you look at the actual number that are "defective" versus the number that aren't and are in homes than you nullify your argument. But we wouldn't want that.
    Hmmmm.. I don't think you were being condecending enough. Try harder next time.
    Last edited by Dynamo of Eternia; October 4, 2006 at 09:37pm.
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  4. #304
    GO HABS GO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ironman's Avatar
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    I have never heard from anyone I know that they've come across a defective Gamecube. Even at my local video game store it's unheard of. Now the PS2 on the other hand is a different story with huge problems. Aerostratos, show me some real proof that there's been Gamecubes that have been defective and not just some of your friends posting on a message board. I highly doubt you can cause Nintendo makes the mort reliable video game systems around. I can still plug in my NES and beat the crap out of Tyson any time I want and that system is 20 years old. The probelms with Sony has been documented.

    I think I can hear stratos drowning.
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  5. #305
    The Master of Insanity CJ Clifford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHAT A GUY
    This is what Miyamoto has been saying for a while now.
    Good. Our friend AeroStratos88 was trying to put a negative spin on the Wii, and I was trying to illustrate how what he is perceiving as a negative is a positive. It may not win them any points in extra points in graphics (as far as photo-realism is concerned anyhow), but the fact the Wii is more or less an upgraded Gamecube is a huge advantage to Nintendo in the development side of games. The only thing developers will have to really wrap their heads around is the motion sensing stuff, which they can ignore entirely if they so chose.

    In other news, if anyone cares, I did purchase a black DS Lite yesterday. Out of the three games I got, not one of them really puts any good significant use to the touch screen. And while New Super Mario Bros is fun, I find it way too easy. I don't know if the bar has been lowered, or if I played the old school Mario games so much that it's impossible for a Mario side-scroller to challenge me. Regardless, I don't regret this purchase. Awesome little handheld. Can't believe how tiny the games are now. Geez! Like a frickin' postage stamp.

  6. #306
    Heroic Warrior IronAvatar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjclifford
    ...but the fact the Wii is more or less an upgraded Gamecube is a huge advantage to Nintendo in the development side of games. The only thing developers will have to really wrap their heads around is the motion sensing stuff, which they can ignore entirely if they so chose.
    In my experience, making the Gamecube execute even the most basic of requirements for a game in 3D is a complete pain, and really not worth the effort involved. Oh yes....I can just see those developers lining up to work with the SAME crippled hardware that was in the Cube.

    They could have atleast added Altivec support to the BROADWAY, instead of keeping some half arsed SIMD co-processor which only performs operations on float-pairs (hullo Nintendo!? even the PS1 had proper support for 3d operations).

    It's also important to keep in mind that there weren't that many people developing for the cube. So really...most developers are going to be learning a NEW hardware platform for the Wii that, as they are going to find out, is absolute hell to develop for in practice.

    Nintendo: Sure, we have test stations. But oh..sorry...you can't connect them to a PC to allow non-programmers to test the game. You'll have to instead, buy a spindle of special disks for $200, and a burner for $5000. Yes, we know it's restrictive, but we don't care what you think. Go make a game.

    Sony: Yes. We have test-stations. No you don't need to burn disks for them, just hook them up over the LAN or by firewire. The cost? Only $250. Cheers.

    But ofcourse...it's really the games that matter. And there were SO MANY great games for the Gamecube. [/sarcasm].

    I'm still of the opinion that the Wii-mote is pretty limited in what it can be used for. I've had the "honour" of handling one at my previous employer, and had a look at what they had in mind for it. Oh just "thrilling" stuff.[/yet more sarcasm]

    I'm betting that this time next year, all we'll see is a load of games that use a sword as the weapon of choice, with one or two variations (shotgun add-on). A whole slew of "bat" games (tennis, table tennis, badmington, cricket, baseball)...sort of like the original Atari bat 'n ball games..."20 amazing games in one console".

    Hah. We are amused.
    Last edited by IronAvatar; October 5, 2006 at 08:48am.
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  7. #307
    Supreme Fudge Dynamo of Eternia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronAvatar
    In my experience, making the Gamecube execute even the most basic of requirements for a game in 3D is a complete pain, and really not worth the effort involved. Oh yes....I can just see those developers lining up to work with the SAME crippled hardware that was in the Cube.
    I really don't think that the hardware was the problem for Gamecube. I think it was the size of the discs. Since they made them on those mini-discs, it reduced the amount of info that could be stored on the disc.

    If the discs had physically been bigger, and retained the same amount of data storage per unit of physical space on the disc, more could have been done.

    Often times the reason that 3rd party games never came out for GCN was because it was the underdog system AND they couldn't fit the games all on one disc.

    Even some games that were seemingly simple and wouldn't require a ton of space, like the newer TMNT games, were 2 discs on GCN. And while the 2-disc method may have worked for TMNT, some 3rd party games, esspecially ones that are very non-linear, just wouldn't logistically work on it.


    This time around with the Wii, the discs are full sized, thus allowing more info to be stores on the discs. Maybe I am wrong, but I never heard anyone previously say that the Gamecube hardware was particularly difficult to program for. It's just that with the lack of online capability, the lack of space on the discs, and the fact that Nintendo was already in 3rd place, there just wasn't a lot of reason to try and put those 3rd party games on GCN.

    This time around, I suspect that will change. Nintendo may still prove to be in 3rd place when it comes to 3rd party support, but it will likely be by a much lesser margin.
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  8. #308
    The Master of Insanity CJ Clifford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronAvatar
    In my experience, making the Gamecube execute even the most basic of requirements for a game in 3D is a complete pain, and really not worth the effort involved. Oh yes....I can just see those developers lining up to work with the SAME crippled hardware that was in the Cube.
    I've pretty much heard that all the consoles are a pain in the butt to program for, just in different ways. My point was that with the Wii, based on Nintendo's comments, developers won't have to learn a whole new console. They had 5 years to figure out the Gamecube and can now apply that same knowledge to the Wii.

    Quote Originally Posted by IronAvatar
    They could have atleast added Altivec support to the BROADWAY, instead of keeping some half arsed SIMD co-processor which only performs operations on float-pairs.
    You hear that whooshing sound? Yeah, that's the sound of this going completely over my head.

  9. #309
    Movie Machine shigsy2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronAvatar
    I'm betting that this time next year, all we'll see is a load of games that use a sword as the weapon of choice, with one or two variations (shotgun add-on). A whole slew of "bat" games (tennis, table tennis, badmington, cricket, baseball)...sort of like the original Atari bat 'n ball games..."20 amazing games in one console".

    Hah. We are amused.
    Howdy

    I will take that bet. Let's see next year: Super Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime 3, Super Smash Bros, Disaster Day of Crisis....this year....Far Cry, Madden, Excite Truck...games with a bat in....Wii Sports (one out of many)....games with sword as weapon of choice.......Red Steel (well 30% of the game anyway)....and Dragon Quest. Hmmmmmmmm yep we can see how your theory holds up

    We could do the same with PS3, I reckon that when the PS3 is finally released and all of the three people who can afford to buy it will be buying games that have you tilt the controller in the same way its just doing different things. I am right?

    Lazy developers may choose to do this but the experianced ones will take full advantage of what the Wii can do....just like the DS.

    Chris M
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  10. #310
    He-Man's PR: No Comment hemanrep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronAvatar
    I'm betting that this time next year, all we'll see is a load of games that use a sword as the weapon of choice, with one or two variations (shotgun add-on). A whole slew of "bat" games (tennis, table tennis, badmington, cricket, baseball)...sort of like the original Atari bat 'n ball games..."20 amazing games in one console".

    Hah. We are amused.
    I will also take that bet. I think most people who dislike (hate is such a harsh word though I was thinking of using it) the Wii underestimate the console a lot. Expect this quote to become my signature very soon.

  11. #311
    Movie Machine shigsy2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hemanrep
    I will also take that bet. I think most people who dislike (hate is such a harsh word though I was thinking of using it) the Wii underestimate the console a lot. Expect this quote to become my signature very soon.
    Howdy

    That and some people just can't understand and appreciate things that are different since we live in such predictable world

    People didn't like Beethoven at his time.....or Elvis when he first started out....they were different and broke mold which needed to be broken, Nintendo did it first with video games and they look to do it again.

    Chris M
    I have been honing my movie knowledge while I have been away and watching a lot. Best Picture winners left to watch: NONE. Films left to watch in Empire's 500 greatest films list: ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTEEN

  12. #312
    Heroic Warrior
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    I don't see the Wii lasting more than 3 years. Soon the novelty/gimmick will wear off and developers will have easily exhausted the system's horsepower. Meanwhile, Microsoft and Sony will have released their own copycat versions of the Wii controller, yet their systems will be outputting in HD. Look for Wii Version 2 to be released before 2010.

  13. #313
    Movie Machine shigsy2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhoul
    I don't see the Wii lasting more than 3 years. Soon the novelty/gimmick will wear off and developers will have easily exhausted the system's horsepower. Meanwhile, Microsoft and Sony will have released their own copycat versions of the Wii controller, yet their systems will be outputting in HD. Look for Wii Version 2 to be released before 2010.
    Howdy

    Hmmmmm NO. the DS has no signs of waning and I suppose you think that has a gimmick?

    Also the motion control is not a gimmick it is how you now control the majority of games. People may have said back in the day that the D-Pad was a gimmick and look how wrong they were.

    This is a new revolution that is going to be needed and hey even Sony admited this is a natural evolution, it IS going to become standard.

    While I hate Sony for copying if they are doing it people will believe that thus is going to be the NEW.

    Chris M
    I have been honing my movie knowledge while I have been away and watching a lot. Best Picture winners left to watch: NONE. Films left to watch in Empire's 500 greatest films list: ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTEEN

  14. #314
    Heroic Warrior
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    The DS is in a completely different market: portables. A market Nintendo has dominated since 1989, mind you. They're not fighting an uphill battle there like they are with Wii.

    You misread what I was saying about Wii. Nowhere did I suggest that any of Wii's features were bad. Does the word "gimmick" carry such a negative connotation? I'm sorry. My point was, Wii's features will be old-hat three years from now, and I aimly predict that Sony and Microsoft will copy the "Wii-mote" within that time if the Wii proves to be successful. Therefore, Wii's lifespan will be crippled either way, as PS3 and Xbox 360 both supercede the Wii in the horsepower department. All the Wii has on them right now is 1) price, 2) unique features, and 3) Nintendo namesake/library of VC games. Will #3 hold up in three years? #1 and #2 can certainly be overcome by Sony and MS.

    Quote Originally Posted by shigsy2003
    Howdy

    Hmmmmm NO. the DS has no signs of waning and I suppose you think that has a gimmick?

    Also the motion control is not a gimmick it is how you now control the majority of games. People may have said back in the day that the D-Pad was a gimmick and look how wrong they were.

    This is a new revolution that is going to be needed and hey even Sony admited this is a natural evolution, it IS going to become standard.

    While I hate Sony for copying if they are doing it people will believe that thus is going to be the NEW.

    Chris M

  15. #315
    Movie Machine shigsy2003's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhoul
    The DS is in a completely different market: portables. A market Nintendo has dominated since 1989, mind you. They're not fighting an uphill battle there like they are with Wii.

    You misread what I was saying about Wii. Nowhere did I suggest that any of Wii's features were bad. Does the word "gimmick" carry such a negative connotation? I'm sorry. My point was, Wii's features will be old-hat three years from now, and I aimly predict that Sony and Microsoft will copy the "Wii-mote" within that time if the Wii proves to be successful. Therefore, Wii's lifespan will be crippled either way, as PS3 and Xbox 360 both supercede the Wii in the horsepower department. All the Wii has on them right now is 1) price, 2) unique features, and 3) Nintendo namesake/library of VC games. Will #3 hold up in three years? #1 and #2 can certainly be overcome by Sony and MS.
    Howdy

    The only way this would work is if horsepower = better more innovative games. It doesn't.

    Sure the shallow people will prefer these consoles because of pure power but thats all they with regards to gaming.

    After playing tennis with the Wiimote how could anyone want to go back to pressing a button?

    Also franchises are heavily in Nintendo's favour. Mario, Metroid , Zelda, Donkey Kong etc are all famous and popular names which catch people's attention and will help Nintendo gain the mass audience it wants. The reason this didn't work with the Cube was because 1. Third parties didn't help to support it and 2. the look of console did it know favours.

    While these things shouldn't matter they do to some people the Wii has none of the above problems. It looks the best out of the three and thrid parties are jumping at the chance to work on it.

    Sony have already basically copied Ninty's idea and at the mo Microsoft aren't interested.

    Sony are getting ripped to shreds, many reasons for this and Microsoft have had a year's head start so they are the real threat, which I think Nintendo is in an awesome position to take them on and win.

    Also the Wii60 movement works in Nintendo's favour.

    Chris M
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  16. #316
    Heroic Warrior
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    I agree with all that, but you are still evading the point.

    All of that will be exhausted in the first 3 years of its lifecycle. Mario on Wii? We'll have it by then. Metroid on Wii? We'll have it by then. Zelda on Wii? We'll have it by then (in a month, even). All of that will be old-hat. The Wii-mote will no longer be innovative in 3 years. Only extensions to the Wii-mote will be "new", but how long can Nintendo milk that feature? Surely, the Wii-mote will be copied by the competition if it does well. That's siimple business economics on Sony and Microsoft's part.

    The Wii will offer nothing above the competition in 3 years that will allow it to survive past 2010. Nintendo will need to come out with a more powerful version in order to keep up with its competitors. That's all I'm saying.

    This wand thing might sound revolutionary right now, but just wait until the carpel tunnel or tennis elbow fatigue sets in from constantly twitching your wrists or flinging your arms about. You can only play with a lightsaber for so long before it becomes tiresome and even boring. Then it's back to turn-based RPG button clicking. You watch.

  17. #317
    The Master of Insanity CJ Clifford's Avatar
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    I don't see where shigsy2003 evaded your point. Your point being that Nintendo's Wii-mote gimick will have played itself out in 3 years and that the Wii will not have the graphical horsepower to compete with Microsoft of Sony. Right? Here's two facts for you. Fact one, most people don't have HDTVs, so HD graphics in this console war doesn't mean a whole lot of squat. HD would have made more sense with the PS4 and Xbox720 five years from now. Fact two, graphics don't make the game. Polygon count, crazy looking textures, and ragdoll physics don't mean anything if the game sucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhoul
    This wand thing might sound revolutionary right now, but just wait until the carpel tunnel or tennis elbow fatigue sets in from constantly twitching your wrists or flinging your arms about. You can only play with a lightsaber for so long before it becomes tiresome and even boring. Then it's back to turn-based RPG button clicking. You watch.
    Considering that both Sony and Microsoft are now doing something with motion sensing in their future controllers, for all you know the Wii-mote could be the next standard in gaming.

  18. #318
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    People will have HDTV's in 3 years. You can hardly buy a TV nowadays that isn't HD. We'll also be 3 years into the advent of Blu-Ray/HD-DVD, too, remember. That will sell HDTV's.

    Don't get me wrong. I hardly feel that the Wii will flop or that the Wii-mote won't be the "next big thing". Nintendo could actually dominate console sales over the next year, simply because consumers are curious about the new device, and because it's all generally cheaper. But once that initial appeal wears off, can Nintendo sustain its momentum? I don't believe so. I believe that Sony and Microsoft will be able to match stride with Nintendo and once again overtake them in the long-run. When that starts to happen, it will be time for Nintendo to innovate anew, and I am predicting this will happen circa 2009 or 2010.

    This is an objective viewpoint from someone who 1) fully acknowledges that gameplay is way more important than graphics, and 2) has owned and excessively played every Nintendo product since 1986.

    Quote Originally Posted by cjclifford
    I don't see where shigsy2003 evaded your point. Your point being that Nintendo's Wii-mote gimick will have played itself out in 3 years and that the Wii will not have the graphical horsepower to compete with Microsoft of Sony. Right? Here's two facts for you. Fact one, most people don't have HDTVs, so HD graphics in this console war doesn't mean a whole lot of squat. HD would have made more sense with the PS4 and Xbox720 five years from now. Fact two, graphics don't make the game. Polygon count, crazy looking textures, and ragdoll physics don't mean anything if the game sucks.


    Considering that both Sony and Microsoft are now doing something with motion sensing in their future controllers, for all you know the Wii-mote could be the next standard in gaming.

  19. #319
    The Master of Insanity CJ Clifford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zhoul
    People will have HDTV's in 3 years. You can hardly buy a TV nowadays that isn't HD. We'll also be 3 years into the advent of Blu-Ray/HD-DVD, too, remember. That will sell HDTV's.
    I'm just not sure how well HD is going to permeate the mainstream market in three years time. And I don't think having two different DVD formats battling it out for HD domination is going to help any. I see a lot of people sticking to their standard sets and DVDs either out of choice or necessity for a good length of time to come. This is why I say HD graphics would have been better served on the consoles that will be released 5 years from now in the next console war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhoul
    Don't get me wrong. I hardly feel that the Wii will flop or that the Wii-mote won't be the "next big thing". Nintendo could actually dominate console sales over the next year, simply because consumers are curious about the new device, and because it's all generally cheaper. But once that initial appeal wears off, can Nintendo sustain its momentum?
    While I think it's entirely possible Nintendo will do better this time around with the Wii, I just don't see them slipping nearly as badly as they have with the Gamecube or Nintendo 64. The mini-disc alone sold me on the idea that the Gamecube would do poorly.

    This time, I think Nintendo has a real chance to make a comeback. I'm not saying they'll completely dominate the market, but I think Nintendo will manage to hold it's own this time. I like to compare the Wii to the DS. Nintendo did the DS as a side project that was never meant to replace the GBA. They thought the touch screen would probably turn away a lot of players (if I remember correctly), and they only expected the most modest of sales. And yet, the DS, with it's gimmicky touch screen, took off, sidelined it's brother the GBA, and is outdoing the PSP. I liken the Wii to this scenario, except I don't think the Wii will totally outdo it's competition. I just think it'll keep the PS3 and 360 on their toes.

  20. #320
    Heroic Warrior
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    Comparing Wii to DS

    You may be right: the Wii could turn out to be the next DS-like success.

    I would still caution to drawing that analogy, though. Handhelds and consoles are completely different markets.

    With the DS, Nintendo was being really modest in the beginning. 10% of handheld sales was their initial projection. That seems suspiciously conservative for a company that is known for their ego. Now that the DS has taken off they are quick to display their cockiness again. Could be a mistake.

    The DS was also using techniques that were tried and true in the industry. People have used PalmPilots for years now. Is it really that much of an extension to combine a PDA feature-set with a handheld gaming machine?

    With the Wii, this is a completely new, untested control scheme. Making comparisons to TV or VCR remotes is a big mistake, IMO. I've never held or operated a remote control that I felt was an extension of my hand and "natural" for playing games with. Look at the PS2 remote vs. a dual-shock controller: which would you choose? Which feels more natural? The latter.

    I'm sure Nintendo has taken every measure possible to ensure the Wii-mote is natural to use, so that may be a moot point. But will the combined package of the Wii-mote and the Wii's feature set be enough to immerse gamers like its DS brethren? Will a hypothetical game like Wii Fishing be as mass-appeal addictive as Nintendogs or Brain Age? What about a Wii version of those same games? I dunno.

    Anyway, as I said before, I think Wii will do "wiilly" well in its first year or so, and then suffer substantially from the Law of Diminishing returns. A lot of pressure will be on developers to keep things fresh.

  21. #321
    Supreme Fudge Dynamo of Eternia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cjclifford
    I'm just not sure how well HD is going to permeate the mainstream market in three years time. And I don't think having two different DVD formats battling it out for HD domination is going to help any. I see a lot of people sticking to their standard sets and DVDs either out of choice or necessity for a good length of time to come. This is why I say HD graphics would have been better served on the consoles that will be released 5 years from now in the next console war.
    Exactly!

    If anything, the fact that there are 2 different HD home video formats competing against each other is going to inhibit people from jumping onto HD, IMO. They will be afraid of picking the one that will go the way of Beta.

    If it was just one format from the get-go, then I think it would help HD come into the main stream much sooner.

    And I agree with the idea that HD in gaming making more sense 5 years from now rather than now.

    Even if hypathetically speaking everyone (or most everyone) has an HDTV within the next 3 years or so, it will take about 3 years to make that happen. And at that point, we will only be probably another 2 years or so away from the next batch of consoles. So, it will mean that Xbox 360 and PS3 would only truely be completely optimal and logical for less than 50% of their life span. That seems silly to me.

    And the inclusion of HD technology now is what is driving the prices of these consoles through the roof. So, it seems stupid to drive the price of consoles up with technology that many won't even be able to utilize for years to come.


    Plus, even game systems like the Wii or even the original Xbox will still look significantly better on an HDTV than they will on a regular TV. Maybe the graphics aren't optimal for HD, but its still going to make a pretty big difference. So, really, the need for HD in gaming consoles is pretty much non existent.

    The truth is that its not very logical at all for Sony or Microsoft to be putting new consoles out at this point in time at all. The only reason they are doing it is because of the general turn over rate of consoles, and this falls into that time frame.

    I mean, let's face it, aside from HD graphics, neither the 360 (which I own, by the way) or the PS3 are really offering anything that couldn't be done on the previous systems. Xbox 360's control is basically the same as that of Xbox, just the buttons have been slightly rearranged. The PS3 control is pretty much the exact controller from the previous 2 systems, only now with this motion censor built in, and I wonder how much they will even utilize that. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.... other than the nicer HD graphics, games like Halo 3 and Metal Gear Solid 4 are not going to offer anything new gameplay wise that couldn't have been done on the previous systems.

    Nintendo realized these issues. HD is expensive and not optimal yet. And, giving people a new, unique gaming experience is important. Hence, they've made a system that may not be HD, but pretty much has the most optimal graphics to date for standard definition, and offers an extremely new, interesting, different way to play. Even if you want to argue that its a gimic and it will wear off in 3 years, ok, fine. But, at the same time, the standard 8-button control pad with 2 analog sticks and a D-pad has pretty much been around for close to a decade and hasn't changed much since. It's already pretty tired. So, Nintendo can enjoy at least 3 years of gimicey goodness, while the competition will stick with ways that are already tired.

    In the past, gaming controls evolved from system to system, as well as the graphics. But in recent years, that has failed to be the case. Now, I'm not saying that we should completely abandon the more standard style of gameplay, but we shouldn't cling to it either.

    And let's face it. The graphics are leveling out. I mean, I really think within the next 5 to 10 years, the graphics will become SO good and SO high-def that there really won't be much that they can do to improve upon them anyway. So, they really need to start thinking of new ways to sell new systems besides better, more advanced graphics, because its a selling point that I really think won't exist in the foreseeable future.
    Last edited by Dynamo of Eternia; October 6, 2006 at 09:48am.
    ____________________________________________

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  22. #322
    The Master of Insanity CJ Clifford's Avatar
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    Wii shortages? Not Likely :)

    Found this little tidbit while checking out Cheapassgamer.com:

    Wii production exceeding expectations

    Posted Oct 5th 2006 11:45AM by Christopher Grant
    Filed under: Nintendo Wii, Business


    Briefing.com reports that, according to UBS, 2 million Wii consoles were completed in Q3 (July-September) to support Nintendo's upcoming Q406 global console launch, beginning November 19th in North America. In addition, "at least 7 mln and potentially as high as 9 mln more units are in the build plan for 4Q06." The report continues, "this production ramp handily exeeds a publicly announced tgt for 6 mln units to ship by yearend"; however, Nintendo had previously announced plans to ship 6 million units by the end of their fiscal year (ending March 31, 2007) and only 4 million by the end of the calendar year. The language appears to indicate the possibility of building, if not shipping, as many as 11 million Wii consoles by the end of the calendar year!

    With production exceeding expectations, why release the console so much later than many anticipated, and right on top of the PlayStation 3's November 17th launch? It all comes down to software. While Nintendo may have warehouses full of Wiis, they need a launch lineup and reliable system software to go along with all that stockpiled hardware. But Zelda has to be done ... we would have been happy with just that, promise.

    http://www.joystiq.com/2006/10/05/wi...-expectations/
    That's really going to put the hurt on eBay sales.

  23. #323
    He-Man's PR: No Comment hemanrep's Avatar
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    Zhoul: You say that the Wii will exhaust it's limits in 3 years, yet you're also saying that Microsoft and Sony will copy the same features...but why would they do that if those same features are already exhausted? Because those two companies have HD capable consoles? Not to be rude (since you seem to be more intuitive than others who keep defending Sony), but high definition will not revive a struggling console, even if HD has saturated the market. High definition improves graphics just as a hard drive improves the ease of saving over memory cards.

  24. #324
    Movie Machine shigsy2003's Avatar
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    Howdy

    Zhoul: when D-pads and analogue controllers came out (NES and N64) did you think the same as you are thinking now?

    The only reason you are thinking this is because it is new. That doesn't mean it won't become standard. I haven't yet got tired of using a D-Pad or control stick and I have been playing with them for 10+ years.

    What makes this different?

    Chris M
    I have been honing my movie knowledge while I have been away and watching a lot. Best Picture winners left to watch: NONE. Films left to watch in Empire's 500 greatest films list: ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTEEN

  25. #325
    Heroic Warrior
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    hemanrep: If Sony and MS are to copy the Wii controller, they will do so within a year if it proves to be a blowaway success. Two years later, we'd have three systems sporting similar control schemes and the market will be (over?)saturated with wand games. I wasn't suggesting Sony/MS would wait 3 years to copy Nintendo.

    Also, I should add that HDTV's are still valuable even if people hold on to their DVD's and refuse to jump to HD-DVD or Blu-ray. Just look at all the upscaling DVD players hitting the market. And HDTV content is gaining steam. I expect HDTV's to be the standard in much less than 5 years... more like the 2 or 3 I alluded to.

    shigsy: When the D-pad came out, I was just a kid lapping it all up post Atari. Guess what, though: the D-pad was co-introduced with the Nintendo Light Gun. How many Light Gun games came out after Duck Hunt and Hogan's Alley? The light gun could be a far better analogy to the Wii-mote than the D-pad is, since both involve physical arm movement and precise hand-eye coordination.

    *cough* Dare I mention the Power Glove? *cough*

    Look at another feature that has become standard thanks to the N64: controller rumble. Cool, huh? So cool, in fact, that Nintendo felt it was a sacrificable feature when it came to the Wavebird. Same with Sony with their SixaxiS controller for the PS3. The rumble effect can still add positive experience to a game, but it is by no means mandatory, and it's fair to say its novelty has worn off over the past 8 years. Will freehand control be obligatory in another few years, or just another option to enable/disable?

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