The Official "Console War" and Video Game Thread

[Zhoul]

I agree with all that, but you are still evading the point.

All of that will be exhausted in the first 3 years of its lifecycle. Mario on Wii? We'll have it by then. Metroid on Wii? We'll have it by then. Zelda on Wii? We'll have it by then (in a month, even). All of that will be old-hat. The Wii-mote will no longer be innovative in 3 years. Only extensions to the Wii-mote will be "new", but how long can Nintendo milk that feature? Surely, the Wii-mote will be copied by the competition if it does well. That's siimple business economics on Sony and Microsoft's part.

The Wii will offer nothing above the competition in 3 years that will allow it to survive past 2010. Nintendo will need to come out with a more powerful version in order to keep up with its competitors. That's all I'm saying.

This wand thing might sound revolutionary right now, but just wait until the carpel tunnel or tennis elbow fatigue sets in from constantly twitching your wrists or flinging your arms about. You can only play with a lightsaber for so long before it becomes tiresome and even boring. Then it's back to turn-based RPG button clicking. You watch.

[CJ Clifford]

I don't see where shigsy2003 evaded your point. Your point being that Nintendo's Wii-mote gimick will have played itself out in 3 years and that the Wii will not have the graphical horsepower to compete with Microsoft of Sony. Right? Here's two facts for you. Fact one, most people don't have HDTVs, so HD graphics in this console war doesn't mean a whole lot of squat. HD would have made more sense with the PS4 and Xbox720 five years from now. Fact two, graphics don't make the game. Polygon count, crazy looking textures, and ragdoll physics don't mean anything if the game sucks.

This wand thing might sound revolutionary right now, but just wait until the carpel tunnel or tennis elbow fatigue sets in from constantly twitching your wrists or flinging your arms about. You can only play with a lightsaber for so long before it becomes tiresome and even boring. Then it's back to turn-based RPG button clicking. You watch.

Considering that both Sony and Microsoft are now doing something with motion sensing in their future controllers, for all you know the Wii-mote could be the next standard in gaming.

[Zhoul]

People will have HDTV's in 3 years. You can hardly buy a TV nowadays that isn't HD. We'll also be 3 years into the advent of Blu-Ray/HD-DVD, too, remember. That will sell HDTV's.

Don't get me wrong. I hardly feel that the Wii will flop or that the Wii-mote won't be the "next big thing". Nintendo could actually dominate console sales over the next year, simply because consumers are curious about the new device, and because it's all generally cheaper. But once that initial appeal wears off, can Nintendo sustain its momentum? I don't believe so. I believe that Sony and Microsoft will be able to match stride with Nintendo and once again overtake them in the long-run. When that starts to happen, it will be time for Nintendo to innovate anew, and I am predicting this will happen circa 2009 or 2010.

This is an objective viewpoint from someone who 1) fully acknowledges that gameplay is way more important than graphics, and 2) has owned and excessively played every Nintendo product since 1986.

I don't see where shigsy2003 evaded your point. Your point being that Nintendo's Wii-mote gimick will have played itself out in 3 years and that the Wii will not have the graphical horsepower to compete with Microsoft of Sony. Right? Here's two facts for you. Fact one, most people don't have HDTVs, so HD graphics in this console war doesn't mean a whole lot of squat. HD would have made more sense with the PS4 and Xbox720 five years from now. Fact two, graphics don't make the game. Polygon count, crazy looking textures, and ragdoll physics don't mean anything if the game sucks.


Considering that both Sony and Microsoft are now doing something with motion sensing in their future controllers, for all you know the Wii-mote could be the next standard in gaming.

[CJ Clifford]

People will have HDTV's in 3 years. You can hardly buy a TV nowadays that isn't HD. We'll also be 3 years into the advent of Blu-Ray/HD-DVD, too, remember. That will sell HDTV's.

I'm just not sure how well HD is going to permeate the mainstream market in three years time. And I don't think having two different DVD formats battling it out for HD domination is going to help any. I see a lot of people sticking to their standard sets and DVDs either out of choice or necessity for a good length of time to come. This is why I say HD graphics would have been better served on the consoles that will be released 5 years from now in the next console war.

Don't get me wrong. I hardly feel that the Wii will flop or that the Wii-mote won't be the "next big thing". Nintendo could actually dominate console sales over the next year, simply because consumers are curious about the new device, and because it's all generally cheaper. But once that initial appeal wears off, can Nintendo sustain its momentum?

While I think it's entirely possible Nintendo will do better this time around with the Wii, I just don't see them slipping nearly as badly as they have with the Gamecube or Nintendo 64. The mini-disc alone sold me on the idea that the Gamecube would do poorly.

This time, I think Nintendo has a real chance to make a comeback. I'm not saying they'll completely dominate the market, but I think Nintendo will manage to hold it's own this time. I like to compare the Wii to the DS. Nintendo did the DS as a side project that was never meant to replace the GBA. They thought the touch screen would probably turn away a lot of players (if I remember correctly), and they only expected the most modest of sales. And yet, the DS, with it's gimmicky touch screen, took off, sidelined it's brother the GBA, and is outdoing the PSP. I liken the Wii to this scenario, except I don't think the Wii will totally outdo it's competition. I just think it'll keep the PS3 and 360 on their toes.

[Zhoul]

You may be right: the Wii could turn out to be the next DS-like success.

I would still caution to drawing that analogy, though. Handhelds and consoles are completely different markets.

With the DS, Nintendo was being really modest in the beginning. 10% of handheld sales was their initial projection. That seems suspiciously conservative for a company that is known for their ego. Now that the DS has taken off they are quick to display their cockiness again. Could be a mistake.

The DS was also using techniques that were tried and true in the industry. People have used PalmPilots for years now. Is it really that much of an extension to combine a PDA feature-set with a handheld gaming machine?

With the Wii, this is a completely new, untested control scheme. Making comparisons to TV or VCR remotes is a big mistake, IMO. I've never held or operated a remote control that I felt was an extension of my hand and "natural" for playing games with. Look at the PS2 remote vs. a dual-shock controller: which would you choose? Which feels more natural? The latter.

I'm sure Nintendo has taken every measure possible to ensure the Wii-mote is natural to use, so that may be a moot point. But will the combined package of the Wii-mote and the Wii's feature set be enough to immerse gamers like its DS brethren? Will a hypothetical game like Wii Fishing be as mass-appeal addictive as Nintendogs or Brain Age? What about a Wii version of those same games? I dunno.

Anyway, as I said before, I think Wii will do "wiilly" well in its first year or so, and then suffer substantially from the Law of Diminishing returns. A lot of pressure will be on developers to keep things fresh.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

I'm just not sure how well HD is going to permeate the mainstream market in three years time. And I don't think having two different DVD formats battling it out for HD domination is going to help any. I see a lot of people sticking to their standard sets and DVDs either out of choice or necessity for a good length of time to come. This is why I say HD graphics would have been better served on the consoles that will be released 5 years from now in the next console war.

Exactly!

If anything, the fact that there are 2 different HD home video formats competing against each other is going to inhibit people from jumping onto HD, IMO. They will be afraid of picking the one that will go the way of Beta.

If it was just one format from the get-go, then I think it would help HD come into the main stream much sooner.

And I agree with the idea that HD in gaming making more sense 5 years from now rather than now.

Even if hypathetically speaking everyone (or most everyone) has an HDTV within the next 3 years or so, it will take about 3 years to make that happen. And at that point, we will only be probably another 2 years or so away from the next batch of consoles. So, it will mean that Xbox 360 and PS3 would only truely be completely optimal and logical for less than 50% of their life span. That seems silly to me.

And the inclusion of HD technology now is what is driving the prices of these consoles through the roof. So, it seems stupid to drive the price of consoles up with technology that many won't even be able to utilize for years to come.


Plus, even game systems like the Wii or even the original Xbox will still look significantly better on an HDTV than they will on a regular TV. Maybe the graphics aren't optimal for HD, but its still going to make a pretty big difference. So, really, the need for HD in gaming consoles is pretty much non existent.

The truth is that its not very logical at all for Sony or Microsoft to be putting new consoles out at this point in time at all. The only reason they are doing it is because of the general turn over rate of consoles, and this falls into that time frame.

I mean, let's face it, aside from HD graphics, neither the 360 (which I own, by the way) or the PS3 are really offering anything that couldn't be done on the previous systems. Xbox 360's control is basically the same as that of Xbox, just the buttons have been slightly rearranged. The PS3 control is pretty much the exact controller from the previous 2 systems, only now with this motion censor built in, and I wonder how much they will even utilize that. I've said it before, and I'll say it again.... other than the nicer HD graphics, games like Halo 3 and Metal Gear Solid 4 are not going to offer anything new gameplay wise that couldn't have been done on the previous systems.

Nintendo realized these issues. HD is expensive and not optimal yet. And, giving people a new, unique gaming experience is important. Hence, they've made a system that may not be HD, but pretty much has the most optimal graphics to date for standard definition, and offers an extremely new, interesting, different way to play. Even if you want to argue that its a gimic and it will wear off in 3 years, ok, fine. But, at the same time, the standard 8-button control pad with 2 analog sticks and a D-pad has pretty much been around for close to a decade and hasn't changed much since. It's already pretty tired. So, Nintendo can enjoy at least 3 years of gimicey goodness, while the competition will stick with ways that are already tired.

In the past, gaming controls evolved from system to system, as well as the graphics. But in recent years, that has failed to be the case. Now, I'm not saying that we should completely abandon the more standard style of gameplay, but we shouldn't cling to it either.

And let's face it. The graphics are leveling out. I mean, I really think within the next 5 to 10 years, the graphics will become SO good and SO high-def that there really won't be much that they can do to improve upon them anyway. So, they really need to start thinking of new ways to sell new systems besides better, more advanced graphics, because its a selling point that I really think won't exist in the foreseeable future.

[CJ Clifford]

Found this little tidbit while checking out Cheapassgamer.com:

Wii production exceeding expectations

Posted Oct 5th 2006 11:45AM by Christopher Grant
Filed under: Nintendo Wii, Business

Briefing.com reports that, according to UBS, 2 million Wii consoles were completed in Q3 (July-September) to support Nintendo's upcoming Q406 global console launch, beginning November 19th in North America. In addition, "at least 7 mln and potentially as high as 9 mln more units are in the build plan for 4Q06." The report continues, "this production ramp handily exeeds a publicly announced tgt for 6 mln units to ship by yearend"; however, Nintendo had previously announced plans to ship 6 million units by the end of their fiscal year (ending March 31, 2007) and only 4 million by the end of the calendar year. The language appears to indicate the possibility of building, if not shipping, as many as 11 million Wii consoles by the end of the calendar year!

With production exceeding expectations, why release the console so much later than many anticipated, and right on top of the PlayStation 3's November 17th launch? It all comes down to software. While Nintendo may have warehouses full of Wiis, they need a launch lineup and reliable system software to go along with all that stockpiled hardware. But Zelda has to be done ... we would have been happy with just that, promise.

http://www.joystiq.com/2006/10/05/wi...-expectations/

That's really going to put the hurt on eBay sales.

[hemanrep]

Zhoul: You say that the Wii will exhaust it's limits in 3 years, yet you're also saying that Microsoft and Sony will copy the same features...but why would they do that if those same features are already exhausted? Because those two companies have HD capable consoles? Not to be rude (since you seem to be more intuitive than others who keep defending Sony), but high definition will not revive a struggling console, even if HD has saturated the market. High definition improves graphics just as a hard drive improves the ease of saving over memory cards.

[shigsy2003]

Howdy

Zhoul: when D-pads and analogue controllers came out (NES and N64) did you think the same as you are thinking now?

The only reason you are thinking this is because it is new. That doesn't mean it won't become standard. I haven't yet got tired of using a D-Pad or control stick and I have been playing with them for 10+ years.

What makes this different?

Chris M

[Zhoul]

hemanrep: If Sony and MS are to copy the Wii controller, they will do so within a year if it proves to be a blowaway success. Two years later, we'd have three systems sporting similar control schemes and the market will be (over?)saturated with wand games. I wasn't suggesting Sony/MS would wait 3 years to copy Nintendo.

Also, I should add that HDTV's are still valuable even if people hold on to their DVD's and refuse to jump to HD-DVD or Blu-ray. Just look at all the upscaling DVD players hitting the market. And HDTV content is gaining steam. I expect HDTV's to be the standard in much less than 5 years... more like the 2 or 3 I alluded to.

shigsy: When the D-pad came out, I was just a kid lapping it all up post Atari. Guess what, though: the D-pad was co-introduced with the Nintendo Light Gun. How many Light Gun games came out after Duck Hunt and Hogan's Alley? The light gun could be a far better analogy to the Wii-mote than the D-pad is, since both involve physical arm movement and precise hand-eye coordination.

*cough* Dare I mention the Power Glove? *cough*

Look at another feature that has become standard thanks to the N64: controller rumble. Cool, huh? So cool, in fact, that Nintendo felt it was a sacrificable feature when it came to the Wavebird. Same with Sony with their SixaxiS controller for the PS3. The rumble effect can still add positive experience to a game, but it is by no means mandatory, and it's fair to say its novelty has worn off over the past 8 years. Will freehand control be obligatory in another few years, or just another option to enable/disable?

[MattOnDemand]

Dare I mention the Power Glove?

I love the Power Glove. It's so bad.

[shigsy2003]

hemanrep: If Sony and MS are to copy the Wii controller, they will do so within a year if it proves to be a blowaway success. Two years later, we'd have three systems sporting similar control schemes and the market will be (over?)saturated with wand games. I wasn't suggesting Sony/MS would wait 3 years to copy Nintendo.

Also, I should add that HDTV's are still valuable even if people hold on to their DVD's and refuse to jump to HD-DVD or Blu-ray. Just look at all the upscaling DVD players hitting the market. And HDTV content is gaining steam. I expect HDTV's to be the standard in much less than 5 years... more like the 2 or 3 I alluded to.

shigsy: When the D-pad came out, I was just a kid lapping it all up post Atari. Guess what, though: the D-pad was co-introduced with the Nintendo Light Gun. How many Light Gun games came out after Duck Hunt and Hogan's Alley? The light gun could be a far better analogy to the Wii-mote than the D-pad is, since both involve physical arm movement and precise hand-eye coordination.

*cough* Dare I mention the Power Glove? *cough*

Look at another feature that has become standard thanks to the N64: controller rumble. Cool, huh? So cool, in fact, that Nintendo felt it was a sacrificable feature when it came to the Wavebird. Same with Sony with their SixaxiS controller for the PS3. The rumble effect can still add positive experience to a game, but it is by no means mandatory, and it's fair to say its novelty has worn off over the past 8 years. Will freehand control be obligatory in another few years, or just another option to enable/disable?

Howdy

But you are comparing peripherals with a fully fledged controller.

The Wiimote is not the light gun it is something that is going to be used in all games (SSB excluded) for good or bad. But as we know traditional games can have problems with the contempary controllers.

Chris M

[AeroStratos88]

http://duggmirror.com/gaming_news/A_...on/wii_gfx.jpg

[Dynamo of Eternia]

http://duggmirror.com/gaming_news/A_...on/wii_gfx.jpg

What exactly is this supposed to prove?

[PanMan]

The guy working on Super Smash Bros basically confirmed that you will be using a normal controller for it in normal play.

http://wii.ign.com/articles/737/737632p1.html

I'm going to hold off on buying a classic controller until this is released. I smell a pack-in

[Dynamo of Eternia]

The guy working on Super Smash Bros basically confirmed that you will be using a normal controller for it in normal play.

http://wii.ign.com/articles/737/737632p1.html

I'm going to hold off on buying a classic controller until this is released. I smell a pack-in

It would be cool if the controller came as a pack-in with the game. I may still pick up one of those classic controllers when they come out, but I would unltimately like to have 2. So, I'll likely hold off on getting a second one until Smash Bros. comes out.

[CJ Clifford]

What exactly is this supposed to prove?

I'm wondering the same thing.

It would be cool if the controller came as a pack-in with the game. I may still pick up one of those classic controllers when they come out, but I would unltimately like to have 2. So, I'll likely hold off on getting a second one until Smash Bros. comes out.

I know the Wii has Gamecube controller ports, so I'm wondering can you use the Cube controller instead of the classic controller, or is the Cube controller only good for Cube games? The classic controller looks nice, but I like the feel of the Cube controller and would rather use it if possible. No point in spending money I don't have to.

[Dynamo of Eternia]

I know the Wii has Gamecube controller ports, so I'm wondering can you use the Cube controller instead of the classic controller, or is the Cube controller only good for Cube games? The classic controller looks nice, but I like the feel of the Cube controller and would rather use it if possible. No point in spending money I don't have to.

I've heard rumors that the new Smash Bros. may allow you to use the Gamecube controllers instead of the Wii ones. But, as far as I know it's just a rumor and I have nothing concrete to back it up.

It would be nice if it used the GCN Controllers, and I would be in favor of it as an option. I already have a few controllers for GCN, so it would help to prevent the need for purchasing new controllers.

[CJ Clifford]

Here's something weird I noticed on EBGames.com. Some of the items/games for the Wii have release dates listed way before the release of the Wii itself. 11/01/06 for Super Smash Bros. Brawl, 10/30/06 for Blitz: The League, 11/01/06 for Wii memory cards. And yet the Wii's release date is 11/19/06. Although I've read it may be unofficially released by the end of October by stores that recieve shipments before then. It seems some chains have no problem breaking street date weeks in advance.

[AeroStratos88]

According to Japanese technology site ITmedia, the PlayStation 3 nearly matches the Wii in terms of consumer interest.

1 40%: Wii
2 39%: PS3
3 16%: Xbox 360
4 3%: Other

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?op...=3956&Itemid=2

Remember how PlayStation 3 games were supposed to cost a fortune in Japan? Like, $75 to $85 a pop? Well, you can clear that space in your brain, as Sony has announced first-party launch titles Resistance and Genji will be priced at ¥5980 (about $50 USD), as will future first-party title MotorStorm. Third-parties have already announced higher prices, like Sega's ¥7140 asking price for Sonic and Sega Golf Club.

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?op...=3961&Itemid=2

1. You know the blue-lit disc drive? It wasn't blue or lit, it was as if the console was off. Though the power button had a little LED in the button itself, to show it was on. Apparently the light was on upon start-up, according to the employees, and they have no idea why it wasn't on later.

2. We know that the sensor bar goes all wonky when halogen lights are in the room. But did you know that natural sunlight messes it up too? That's right, if you have the sun beaming right onto the sensor bar, it doesn't work. For about an hour or so, the sun shone right into the store, the two MP3:C kiosks had to have curtains above them, and the Wii Sports Tennis and Shooting Game kiosks were unplayable since they were "shrouded" in sunlight. Later the sun went behind a building, and everything was in working order again. So when you get your Wii, don't play it in the sunlight. Or keep the sensor bar and TV away from the windows.

http://forums.nintendo.com/nintendo/...age.id=2065592

[PanMan]

2. We know that the sensor bar goes all wonky when halogen lights are in the room. But did you know that natural sunlight messes it up too? That's right, if you have the sun beaming right onto the sensor bar, it doesn't work. For about an hour or so, the sun shone right into the store, the two MP3:C kiosks had to have curtains above them, and the Wii Sports Tennis and Shooting Game kiosks were unplayable since they were "shrouded" in sunlight. Later the sun went behind a building, and everything was in working order again. So when you get your Wii, don't play it in the sunlight. Or keep the sensor bar and TV away from the windows.

http://forums.nintendo.com/nintendo/...age.id=2065592

That sucks and I hope they can fix it, but it doesn't directly affect me since my TV's are never in the sun.

[TheDeviot]

Hope you like scalper bay. Gamestop to only get 8 PS3 consoles a piece:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6159525...ort=1#comments

[hemanrep]

http://duggmirror.com/gaming_news/A_...on/wii_gfx.jpg

I know I've made peace with the Wii being underpowered and I know lots of others posting in this thread probably have too...but have you?

I mean how many times can someone do comparison shots of the Wii and the GameCube...we know it's the weakest.

Again...what's the point in bringing it up again?

[Dynamo of Eternia]

According to Japanese technology site ITmedia, the PlayStation 3 nearly matches the Wii in terms of consumer interest.

1 40%: Wii
2 39%: PS3
3 16%: Xbox 360
4 3%: Other

I find this info to be great in Nintendo's favor. I mean, for quite some time now, Nintendo has been the significant underdog with Sony well ahead of them. Now the interest in the two companies is nearly equal. Good for Nintendo, not so great for Sony.

Remember how PlayStation 3 games were supposed to cost a fortune in Japan? Like, $75 to $85 a pop? Well, you can clear that space in your brain, as Sony has announced first-party launch titles Resistance and Genji will be priced at ¥5980 (about $50 USD), as will future first-party title MotorStorm. Third-parties have already announced higher prices, like Sega's ¥7140 asking price for Sonic and Sega Golf Club.

So, basically first party games are $50 and third party are $60, which is right in line with what they cost on Xbox 360. That's pretty much what I was expecting. I didn't think Sony would be stupid enough to charge way more for the games. They aren't selling them for any more or less than the competition.

1. You know the blue-lit disc drive? It wasn't blue or lit, it was as if the console was off. Though the power button had a little LED in the button itself, to show it was on. Apparently the light was on upon start-up, according to the employees, and they have no idea why it wasn't on later.

Well, that is odd, but in all honesty, if the only major functional problem that the console unit, itself, is going to have is a light not lighting up when it should, but the system is otherwise working fine, then I'm really not going to sweat over it.

I mean, I'm sure I can figure out if my system is on or off without a light telling me so. It's not exactly a rocket science.

Sure, it's not ideal, but considering how much worse things could be, it's really not a big deal.

2. We know that the sensor bar goes all wonky when halogen lights are in the room. But did you know that natural sunlight messes it up too? That's right, if you have the sun beaming right onto the sensor bar, it doesn't work. For about an hour or so, the sun shone right into the store, the two MP3:C kiosks had to have curtains above them, and the Wii Sports Tennis and Shooting Game kiosks were unplayable since they were "shrouded" in sunlight. Later the sun went behind a building, and everything was in working order again. So when you get your Wii, don't play it in the sunlight. Or keep the sensor bar and TV away from the windows.

Well, Crap! This is no good. This completely and entirely wrecks my plans to buy the system, come home, open every window in the house, and set everything up in as direct of sunlight as possible and play all day long!

In all seriousness, yeah, this kind of stinks, but is there really much they can do to prevent the problem? And besides, it's really not THAT big of a deal. Just keep the blinds closed while playing the game, and use typcial lamps to light the room. That's simple enough.

I know I've made peace with the Wii being underpowered and I know lots of others posting in this thread probably have too...but have you?

I mean how many times can someone do comparison shots of the Wii and the GameCube...we know it's the weakest.

Again...what's the point in bringing it up again?

LOL! Yeah, I agree. Talk about beating a dead horse. What is it that Aerostratos hopes to prove? It's not like we are in denial over the level of graphics of the Wii.

But actually, looking at those comparison pics, while the differences are certainly far from being night and day, I still notice some differences (even if only minor ones) in the comparison shots, to the Wii's benefit.

Also, I remember seeing comparison pics between similar games on Xbox and Xbox 360 last year and how they didn't exactly look like night and day either. And from what I've heard, the graphics of PS3 aren't a whole lot better than Xbox 360.

The only real way to take full advantage of the graphics of Xbox 360 and PS3 is to have an HDTV. And for those who have one, more power to them. However, I don't currently have one, and it's just out of my price range for the time being. Those things are expensive, and not everyone can just afford to dump a bunch of cash into buying one.

So, really, the graphics thing is kind of a moot point for me right now anyway (which graphics have never been the biggest selling point for me to start with).

[shigsy2003]

Howdy

The Wii not working in sun light? Not a problem I live in England

The blue light thing? Well as long as I can play games it don't really matter.

Lastly, I really don't get that comparison. WE KNOW THE WII ISN'T AS POWERFUL AS THE OTHER TWO. Drop it now!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chris M