DC Universe Classics Figure Frustration

[Larry Waters]

I, for one, certainly do not hate everything. I mentioned a lot of stuff I like quite a bit. And I liked Dark Knight Returns. I just said there's stuff that's a lot better. Most of what I was saying, though, is centered around its supposed influence--which I felt was being drastically over stated by several posters.

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I wasn't talking about the general public. Surveys seem to indicate that roughly 90% of our country doesn't read. But for people that do, the stuff I mentioned was eye-opening in a way that a Batman comic could never be.

If you haven't even heard of the stuff I mentioned, then I assume you only read mainstream, mostly super-hero comics.

To be clear, I am in no way denigrating you for that and I have no problem with it whatsoever. But you are missing out on a lot of the best the medium has to offer. Give them a try, you might really like some of it.

And, again, I agree that Dark Knight influenced mainstream super-hero comics--no argument there.

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Again, I am not talking about the general public. Most people don't read books, graphic novels, comics or anything else, so there's no point in discussing the influence a comic has on them. It has none. The general public is as unaware of Dark Knight Returns as they are of most of the authors studied in an undergraduate comparative literature course.

I agree that sex and violence can be an integral part of serious literature. My point was that tarting up Catwoman and killing the Joker doesn't equate to an adult version of Batman.

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Are you actually saying that you can't disagree with someone without either resorting to childish one liners or responding in such an immature, inflammatory manner that you would be admonished by the moderators?

That's sad.

But I did find it amusing that you accused me of being elitist while I was discussing comic books and Batman. I had no idea my tastes were so high brow. Maybe the Queen of England will invite me to tea to debate the Frank Miller ouevre.

Nope, simply said that your opinion on TDKR is not worth anything more well thought-out.

Ohhh...who's clever now?

See how fun and easy it is???

The fact remains that TDKR is way more important and had way more of an impact than you're willing to admit.


That OR tons of fans and creators are wrong and you're the only one that can see the truth. Now, which of those two is the most likely?

TDKR didn't just influence "super heroes"...it influenced the entire industry.

As far as how TDKR impacted non-readers, I can say that prior to seeing it in a bookstore, I had NEVER owned a DC or Marvel book except for GI Joe. In fact, reading TDKR in the spring of 1989 launched me into becoming an actual comic book fan.

[hauke]

Most of what I was saying, though, is centered around its supposed influence--which I felt was being drastically over stated by several posters.

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I wasn't talking about the general public. Surveys seem to indicate that roughly 90% of our country doesn't read. But for people that do, the stuff I mentioned was eye-opening in a way that a Batman comic could never be.
If you haven't even heard of the stuff I mentioned, then I assume you only read mainstream, mostly super-hero comics.
And, again, I agree that Dark Knight influenced mainstream super-hero comics--no argument there.

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O.k. you are saying that we overestimate the influence of TDKR compared to stuff like Maus. But at the same time you admit that TDKR had a big influence on mainstream super-hero comics. Now since the majority of comics sold and read in the US are super-hero based comics would that not by definition make the TDKR a more influential comic? As in it influenced a far larger part of the US comic industry then the other examples you cited since those are only for a small intellectual minority? Influence does not always equal quality.

I agree that sex and violence can be an integral part of serious literature. My point was that tarting up Catwoman and killing the Joker doesn't equate to an adult version of Batman.

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Well first of all Batman did not kill Joker in Dark Knight. Secondly as I stated in my previous post the Dark Knight has a lot of other undergoing themes I would define as adult. No Batman comic before made me ever think about politics. The Dark Knight did. If you think tarting up Catwoman is why people think the TDKR is an adult comic book then you did not get the point of the comic. That is like saying people think Watchmen is adult because it shows big blue male genitalia. :-)

[chrisware]

Nope, simply said that your opinion on TDKR is not worth anything more well thought-out.

Ohhh...who's clever now?

See how fun and easy it is???

The fact remains that TDKR is way more important and had way more of an impact than you're willing to admit.


That OR tons of fans and creators are wrong and you're the only one that can see the truth. Now, which of those two is the most likely?

TDKR didn't just influence "super heroes"...it influenced the entire industry.

As far as how TDKR impacted non-readers, I can say that prior to seeing it in a bookstore, I had NEVER owned a DC or Marvel book except for GI Joe. In fact, reading TDKR in the spring of 1989 launched me into becoming an actual comic book fan.

This is getting tiresome, so I will address you one last time, probably because I have a Don Quixote complex, then I will let you have the last word, which I'm sure will be filled with awesomeness.

No, you did not say that my opinion wasn't worth something well thought out. You said your response would be unacceptable to the mods. Not even remotely the same thing.

Who's clever now? Hmm...I will go with "not you."

Now Dark Knight is important, too? Whatever you say, dude.

And I see now you feel empowered to speak for tons of fans and creators. All of whom comprise the tiny little intellectually backward, emotionally retarded world of mainstream super-hero comics. They couldn't ask for a better ambassador. And exactly what truth are they all seeing? Even the hacks who are currently working on the latest continuity reboot don't delude themselves into thinking that Frank Miller is considered a serious author by anyone with a high school diploma or a library card.

It influenced the entire industry? Not just super-heroes? Really? Yeah, Daniel Clowes, Jaime Hernandez, Chris Ware...the Dark Knight influence is so obvious I'm not sure how I missed it.

[hauke]

This is getting tiresome, so I will address you one last time, probably because I have a Don Quixote complex, then I will let you have the last word, which I'm sure will be filled with awesomeness.

No, you did not say that my opinion wasn't worth something well thought out. You said your response would be unacceptable to the mods. Not even remotely the same thing.

Who's clever now? Hmm...I will go with "not you."

Now Dark Knight is important, too? Whatever you say, dude.

And I see now you feel empowered to speak for tons of fans and creators. All of whom comprise the tiny little intellectually backward, emotionally retarded world of mainstream super-hero comics. They couldn't ask for a better ambassador. And exactly what truth are they all seeing? Even the hacks who are currently working on the latest continuity reboot don't delude themselves into thinking that Frank Miller is considered a serious author by anyone with a high school diploma or a library card.

It influenced the entire industry? Not just super-heroes? Really? Yeah, Daniel Clowes, Jaime Hernandez, Chris Ware...the Dark Knight influence is so obvious I'm not sure how I missed it.

O.k. you like reading smart stuff we get it. Still us dumb and stupid superhero readers are in the majority. Sorry to tell you but influence is as much about size as it is about quality. So guys like Daniel Clowes, Jaime Hernandez, Chris Ware influence you and your small group of library card owners more then the TDKR? Good for you. But saying those guys had a larger influence on comics is like saying some small independend SF film had a bigger influence on science fiction movies then Star Wars. Oh by the way you are posting on a toyboard discussing a superhero comic. If you are so into all that smart and meaningful stuff wouldn't it be better if you spend your time on a Nobel price for literature message board or something like that?

[chrisware]

O.k. you like reading smart stuff we get it. Still us dumb and stupid superhero readers are in the majority. Sorry to tell you but influence is as much about size as it is about quality. So guys like Daniel Clowes, Jaime Hernandez, Chris Ware influence you and your small group of library card owners more then the TDKR? Good for you. But saying those guys had a larger influence on comics is like saying some small independend SF film had a bigger influence on science fiction movies then Star Wars. Oh by the way you are posting on a toyboard discussing a superhero comic. If you are so into all that smart and meaningful stuff wouldn't it be better if you spend your time on a Nobel price for literature message board or something like that?

I did not say that Clowes, et al had a bigger influence on comics. Did you even read my original post and its subsequent follow ups?

Your statement that a site like this one is an inappropriate forum in which to discuss what makes something great art is demeaning to everyone who posts here.

Your entire tone is defensive and belligerent. I'm sorry if it bothers you that someone doesn't think Frank Miller is a genius, and actually has adult reading tastes, but that's not my problem.

And it has nothing to do with "dumb super-heroes" or elitism. Nolan's trilogy is brilliant. Miller's Dark Knight isn't.

[BCreviews4628]

O.k. you like reading smart stuff

That sounds like a comeback Jerry Springer contestants would come up with.

[phantom1592]

I loved the issue one of Dark knight returns... the whole 'old washed up batman' putting the suit on and going back in one last time...'

Awesome read...

Everything AFTER that... the mutants, Batmans' war' Superman as a government stooge... All rubbish. Dark knight strikes back?? Even worse.

Point of fact... I liked some of Frank Miller's Daredevil run, but on the whole, I think he's DRASTICALLY overrated. Same with Morre's Watchman.

Ok read... Best part is how the bad guy WON.. Bot overall... too in love with it's own 'genius' to be taken seriously.

They BOTH influenced the comic world fairly evenly... and unfortunately. OUTSIDE Comic collector's?? They BOTH mean NOTHING. As Hauke pointed out... They needed to publish primers about who and what Watchmen was... and WHY it was important to the world around it...

Which... kind of means it WASN'T. You rarely need articles pointing out who Edgar Allen Poe was... or Who Shakespeare was... But Frank Miller? We're still TELLING people who He is... They're a lot like famous sports stars, the barry Bonds, and the Wayne Gretzykes... Only the people who care about the genre... care about the people in it.


They were both influence... however, I don';t think it was a GOOD influence. It's an effect that is as far reaching as MOTUC... It turned 'kids stuff' into 'Adult stuff'. And I REALLY Hate that...

They turned a pointy eared detective in a bat costume... and convinced the world that this was 'dark and meaningful'... That he was 'Adult orientated'. Comics everywhere followed suit, and soon the comics code was gone.. and now the mainstream comics have Batman and catwoman having sex on a rooftop.

'For the Adults'...

Reaches even into the toy world... How many threads have we seen about these 'Adult collectibles'?

They aren't.

They're TOYS.

If you are an adult who likes to read comics about brightly colored heroes and buys toys... EMBRACE IT!!!

I Like comics because they were good and wholesome. Heroes who would never get involved in a sex scandle or a steroid scam, or arrested for DUI's like the 'real heroes' of the world.

I collect toys because they remind me of my childhood, and I enjoy embracing that feeling whenever I can...

Sadly the kids don't ahve anywhere to go anymore... The 'Toys' are $30 a piece now... while theirs are all big feeted/handed, goofy looking monstrosities.. the Entire DC universe used to be 'Safe'... now there's about 5-6 books that are considered 'all-ages'

Even the Cartoon network, moved toward 'adult cartoons'...

All this I lay at Frank Miller's and Alan Moore's feet. Yes they were both influencial... and YES, I wish they had never picked up a pencil

[Jinxieman]

I did not say that Clowes, et al had a bigger influence on comics. Did you even read my original post and its subsequent follow ups?

Your statement that a site like this one is an inappropriate forum in which to discuss what makes something great art is demeaning to everyone who posts here.

Your entire tone is defensive and belligerent. I'm sorry if it bothers you that someone doesn't think Frank Miller is a genius, and actually has adult reading tastes, but that's not my problem.

And it has nothing to do with "dumb super-heroes" or elitism. Nolan's trilogy is brilliant. Miller's Dark Knight isn't.

He may sound defensive and belligerent...to you...personally he doesn't to me.

[Dark Sorceress]

hope we get her to go with him
batman-statue-frank-miller-s-dark-knight-returns-rare-edaea.JPG

[Draego-Man]

Yeah, so aside from this war of words, can anyone please answer my question... is this actually a MOTUC buck (i.e., shared parts) or does it just look like one? Thanks.

[Larry Waters]

This is getting tiresome, so I will address you one last time, probably because I have a Don Quixote complex, then I will let you have the last word, which I'm sure will be filled with awesomeness.

No, you did not say that my opinion wasn't worth something well thought out. You said your response would be unacceptable to the mods. Not even remotely the same thing.

Who's clever now? Hmm...I will go with "not you."

Now Dark Knight is important, too? Whatever you say, dude.

And I see now you feel empowered to speak for tons of fans and creators. All of whom comprise the tiny little intellectually backward, emotionally retarded world of mainstream super-hero comics. They couldn't ask for a better ambassador. And exactly what truth are they all seeing? Even the hacks who are currently working on the latest continuity reboot don't delude themselves into thinking that Frank Miller is considered a serious author by anyone with a high school diploma or a library card.

It influenced the entire industry? Not just super-heroes? Really? Yeah, Daniel Clowes, Jaime Hernandez, Chris Ware...the Dark Knight influence is so obvious I'm not sure how I missed it.

O.k. you like reading smart stuff we get it. Still us dumb and stupid superhero readers are in the majority. Sorry to tell you but influence is as much about size as it is about quality. So guys like Daniel Clowes, Jaime Hernandez, Chris Ware influence you and your small group of library card owners more then the TDKR? Good for you. But saying those guys had a larger influence on comics is like saying some small independend SF film had a bigger influence on science fiction movies then Star Wars. Oh by the way you are posting on a toyboard discussing a superhero comic. If you are so into all that smart and meaningful stuff wouldn't it be better if you spend your time on a Nobel price for literature message board or something like that?

What's really great is how nobody here seems to agree with you.

A comic book shop owner (or is it former) that looks down his nose at the Great Unwashed because we don't share his taste?

Awesome.

Re: The Dark Knight Returns.... I'm right. And since this wonderful country allows freedoms of all kinds, you're free to be just as wrong as you please.

[Daniel Lynch]

The 4H confirmed on Twitter that the Dark Knight Returns Batman does re-use some MOTUC parts: http://www.itsalltrue.net/?p=20216

[Stratos*Major]

Thats cool and all...I just never really cared about the whole scale thing...I still don't.

Batman does not live in the MOTUC Universe.

However, I think it's neat that he is using some shared parts! For DKR & MOTUC fans this should be awesome news...why does it matter what you think about Frank Miller for. I would think the only disagrement would be about wether or not the actual toy is cool or not...

[midor]

The 4H confirmed on Twitter that the Dark Knight Returns Batman does re-use some MOTUC parts: http://www.itsalltrue.net/?p=20216

And with that I do hereby call that Batman, Bat-Or Heroic Nighttime Vigilante.

[hauke]

Your statement that a site like this one is an inappropriate forum in which to discuss what makes something great art is demeaning to everyone who posts here.

Well I was not the one saying stuff like "intellectually backward, emotionally retarded world of mainstream super-hero comics" which is way more demeaning to everyone who reads that stuff. I was just wondering why you are discussing these things if they are for the "intellectually backward, emotionally retarded" only. This suggest to me that you would rather talk to more intelligent people who do not read super hero comics or collect toys which you obviously find "intellectually backward, emotionally retarded". I did not mean in any way to insult anyone who likes comics, toys or reads this forum.

Your entire tone is defensive and belligerent. I'm sorry if it bothers you that someone doesn't think Frank Miller is a genius, and actually has adult reading tastes, but that's not my problem.

Up to that point I was actually hoping to simply state my arguments that I think TDKR had a huge impact on the rather large superhero comic industry and therefore a large impact on the whole comic industry as well. I never said I think Miller was a genius. In fact I do not like most of his recent output and very sadly that has diminished my opinion of TDKR a little bit as well. But that does not change the fact that at its time it was quite relevant and a game changer in its industry. It is not the greatest piece of literature ever. But it is not as simple and irrelevant as you try to make it either.

And it has nothing to do with "dumb super-heroes" or elitism. Nolan's trilogy is brilliant. Miller's Dark Knight isn't.

I would believe you if not for the "intellectually backward, emotionally retarded world of mainstream super-hero comics" comment.

That sounds like a comeback Jerry Springer contestants would come up with.

Sorry that might have sounded meaner then it was meant to be.

I loved the issue one of Dark knight returns... the whole 'old washed up batman' putting the suit on and going back in one last time...'
They were both influence... however, I don';t think it was a GOOD influence. It's an effect that is as far reaching as MOTUC... It turned 'kids stuff' into 'Adult stuff'. And I REALLY Hate that...

While I do like a more dark and gritty take on things that are normally considered kids stuff I know where you are coming from. I sometimes miss the good old days when comics were more about simple adventures then all the dark stuff and the violence. I am sometimes sad to see how easy superheroes kill these days. I do not want the dark stuff to go away but I would welcome some comic series that target kids again.

[wyldman11]

I think people are forgetting that Dennis O'Neil and Neal Adams had already started putting Batman to his more darker roots in the 70s. The created Ra's al Ghul, and turned the Joker back into a homicidial maniac. They are the ones who also did similar with Green Lantern and Green Arrow, with Speedy becoming a heroin addict.

While Dark Knight Returns is influential on many comic writers, and the super hero medium it doesn't live in a bubble that goes Adam West campy Batman then Dark Knight Rises twenty years later.

[hauke]

I think people are forgetting that Dennis O'Neil and Neal Adams had already started putting Batman to his more darker roots in the 70s. The created Ra's al Ghul, and turned the Joker back into a homicidial maniac. They are the ones who also did similar with Green Lantern and Green Arrow, with Speedy becoming a heroin addict.

While Dark Knight Returns is influential on many comic writers, and the super hero medium it doesn't live in a bubble that goes Adam West campy Batman then Dark Knight Rises twenty years later.

Agreed. I see Watchmen and TDKR as the culmination or major milestones of a trend that started way earlier by many other people and has dominated super-hero comics ever since.

[Draego-Man]

Anyone? ... seriously, anyone? *Sigh*

[hauke]

Anyone? ... seriously, anyone? *Sigh*

Only info I could find was here: http://www.itsalltrue.net/?p=20216

If they used parts of the buck I would imagine it to be in scale with MOTUC.

[SCB]

Batman is awesome. Love the head sculpt and new details on the costume. Superman is kind of the opposite. Don't like the design, only got him because Mattel is going to complete the new team and Supes should not be missing. Red Robin I've wanted forever. He's too big to work for Tim, but just right for a stand in for Jason.

[eurorko]

Wow Superman's face is hideous!! What is up with the wacky eyes? First Spikor, then Donatello, and now Superman. Batman looks great.

[Brian Ozone]

Only info I could find was here: http://www.itsalltrue.net/?p=20216

If they used parts of the buck I would imagine it to be in scale with MOTUC.

Sweet. Batman has landed on Eternia......

[Daniel Lynch]

Yay for the thread being unlocked!

Anyone? ... seriously, anyone? *Sigh*

hauke already linked my article above -> http://www.itsalltrue.net/?p=20216

But yes, the 4H said on Twitter that he does reuse some MOTU parts (mostly legs & arms), so he should be particularly compatible.

[SCB]

[diosoth]

Alan Moore did more for Batman than Frank Miller did. Plus, Miller revealed to the world he's little more than a selfish, spoiled brat who thinks poor people are lazy, so I couldn't care about him or his overrated comics.