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Thread: DC Universe Classics Figure Thread

  1. #4351
    Heroric Drummer Brian Ozone's Avatar
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    I'm over it guy.....

    Do you think they are gonna do anyone else from DC in the MOtUC buck style?
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  2. #4352
    Evil Lord of the Deadlift Larry Waters's Avatar
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    I HOPE they do a TDKR Superman with this buck. It would be PERFECT!
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  3. #4353
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    The head sculpt is bad. Just because it's based on Dark Knight Returns doesn't mean it gets a pass. Look at the head sculpts on some of the statues--they are based on the same source but look much, much better.

    Comparing Dark Knight Returns to Watchmen is silly.

    DKR was an above average genre story with very good art. It was still filled with typical genre cliches and, while it thrilled teens and Batman fans, did nothing to advance the medium in any substantial way.

    Watchmen, on the other hand, was a complex story that did appeal to non-comic readers who previously considered comics to be junk for kids and nerds. It helped legitimize the graphic novel as a medium worth serious attention.

    I don't, however, think that Frank Miller is over rated. Thoughtful comic readers consider him to be exactly what he is, a slightly above average mainstream comic book writer and an excellent layout artist.

    If you want some great stuff, and your taste is (sadly) confined to super-hero stories, I would recommend Moore's Miracleman run and V, For Vendetta.

    Of course, if you just like great comics, period, I could suggest about 100 things that are light years beyond DKR.

  4. #4354
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisware View Post
    DKR was an above average genre story with very good art. It was still filled with typical genre cliches and, while it thrilled teens and Batman fans, did nothing to advance the medium in any substantial way.
    You better check your comic history.

    I don't love DKR, but it is one of the most influential comics ever. Should it have been? That's debatable. But the fact of the matter is it was.

  5. #4355
    Heroric Drummer Brian Ozone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Country:3101498
    I HOPE they do a TDKR Superman with this buck. It would be PERFECT!
    Hell yea and a joker
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  6. #4356
    Heroic Warrior hauke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisware View Post
    The head sculpt is bad. Just because it's based on Dark Knight Returns doesn't mean it gets a pass. Look at the head sculpts on some of the statues--they are based on the same source but look much, much better.

    Comparing Dark Knight Returns to Watchmen is silly.

    DKR was an above average genre story with very good art. It was still filled with typical genre cliches and, while it thrilled teens and Batman fans, did nothing to advance the medium in any substantial way.

    Watchmen, on the other hand, was a complex story that did appeal to non-comic readers who previously considered comics to be junk for kids and nerds. It helped legitimize the graphic novel as a medium worth serious attention.

    I don't, however, think that Frank Miller is over rated. Thoughtful comic readers consider him to be exactly what he is, a slightly above average mainstream comic book writer and an excellent layout artist.

    If you want some great stuff, and your taste is (sadly) confined to super-hero stories, I would recommend Moore's Miracleman run and V, For Vendetta.

    Of course, if you just like great comics, period, I could suggest about 100 things that are light years beyond DKR.
    I think the head looks great and just like in the comics. Your mileage may vary though. I also think you underestimate the influence TDKR had at its time. It made Batman relevant again. It made the whole DC universe and superhero comics in general much darker and more adult. TDKR used one of the most iconic comic characters and turned him from a character for children into a character for adult readers. It really was the comic that showed a wider audience that mainstream superhero comics can be for adults as well. And wether the story deserves it or not the TDKR helped legitimize the graphic novel as a medium worth serious attention just as well as Watchmen. There is a reason both titles are often quoted as being responsible for the modern change in comics. Maybe I am just not as "thoughtful" a comic reader as you seem to be but I will always think of TDKR as one of the greatest and most influencial superhero comics. Oh and anyone interested in non superhero comics I recommend tracking down old issues of Grimjack. Personally I consider that the greatest comic book series of alltime. :-)
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  7. #4357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoffman View Post
    You better check your comic history.

    I don't love DKR, but it is one of the most influential comics ever. Should it have been? That's debatable. But the fact of the matter is it was.
    It's not history for me...I lived it. I worked in a comic book store during the early and mid eighties before opening my own store at the end of the decade.

    Any influence it had was confined to the small, insular world of super-hero comics. It's only real influence on the larger world beyond would be small bits that Nolan has incorporated into his trilogy---and that's minimal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hauke View Post
    I think the head looks great and just like in the comics. Your mileage may vary though. I also think you underestimate the influence TDKR had at its time. It made Batman relevant again. It made the whole DC universe and superhero comics in general much darker and more adult. TDKR used one of the most iconic comic characters and turned him from a character for children into a character for adult readers. It really was the comic that showed a wider audience that mainstream superhero comics can be for adults as well. And wether the story deserves it or not the TDKR helped legitimize the graphic novel as a medium worth serious attention just as well as Watchmen. There is a reason both titles are often quoted as being responsible for the modern change in comics. Maybe I am just not as "thoughtful" a comic reader as you seem to be but I will always think of TDKR as one of the greatest and most influencial superhero comics. Oh and anyone interested in non superhero comics I recommend tracking down old issues of Grimjack. Personally I consider that the greatest comic book series of alltime. :-)
    Not trying to be a cranky old windbag, but what you're saying is just not so.

    DKR was a big deal to comic-geeks. And it was hyped up for a time in the so-called real news. But so was the pathetic Death of Superman. DKR did not elevate the graphic novel in the eyes of non-comic readers in any way. Watchmen did, although nowhere near as much as Maus, Love and Rockets, Jimmy Corrigan, Ghost World, etc.

    Dark Knight made Batman relevant again--but only to super-hero comic fans.

    And I'm not sure it made comics darker--Batman began as a gun-toting vigilante that shot his opponents--that's pretty dark, no?

    As for adult, I don't equate sex and violence with adult. What exactly does DKR have to say about anything real? It's still escapist fantasy--well done and enjoyable--but no one will confuse it with actual literature. (I hope.)

  8. #4358
    Heroic Master of Maturity SCB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ozone View Post
    Hell yea and a joker
    Joker wears a suit.

  9. #4359
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    Is that really a MOTUC buck or does it just look sort of like a MOTUC buck? Can anyone verify this?

    If it IS actually a MOTUC buck (i.e., actual shared parts) then I'll buy one, but if it is something that just looks similar, then I'm not interested.

  10. #4360
    Evil Lord of the Deadlift Larry Waters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisware View Post

    Comparing Dark Knight Returns to Watchmen is silly.

    DKR was an above average genre story with very good art. It was still filled with typical genre cliches and, while it thrilled teens and Batman fans, did nothing to advance the medium in any substantial way.
    Wow. Selective memory, much?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoffman View Post
    You better check your comic history.

    I don't love DKR, but it is one of the most influential comics ever. Should it have been? That's debatable. But the fact of the matter is it was.
    Quote Originally Posted by hauke View Post
    I think the head looks great and just like in the comics. Your mileage may vary though. I also think you underestimate the influence TDKR had at its time. It made Batman relevant again. It made the whole DC universe and superhero comics in general much darker and more adult. TDKR used one of the most iconic comic characters and turned him from a character for children into a character for adult readers. It really was the comic that showed a wider audience that mainstream superhero comics can be for adults as well. And wether the story deserves it or not the TDKR helped legitimize the graphic novel as a medium worth serious attention just as well as Watchmen. There is a reason both titles are often quoted as being responsible for the modern change in comics. Maybe I am just not as "thoughtful" a comic reader as you seem to be but I will always think of TDKR as one of the greatest and most influencial superhero comics. Oh and anyone interested in non superhero comics I recommend tracking down old issues of Grimjack. Personally I consider that the greatest comic book series of alltime. :-)
    Thanks for saving me the typing!

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisware View Post
    It's not history for me...I lived it. I worked in a comic book store during the early and mid eighties before opening my own store at the end of the decade.

    Any influence it had was confined to the small, insular world of super-hero comics. It's only real influence on the larger world beyond would be small bits that Nolan has incorporated into his trilogy---and that's minimal.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Not trying to be a cranky old windbag, but what you're saying is just not so.

    DKR was a big deal to comic-geeks. And it was hyped up for a time in the so-called real news. But so was the pathetic Death of Superman. DKR did not elevate the graphic novel in the eyes of non-comic readers in any way. Watchmen did, although nowhere near as much as Maus, Love and Rockets, Jimmy Corrigan, Ghost World, etc.

    Dark Knight made Batman relevant again--but only to super-hero comic fans.

    And I'm not sure it made comics darker--Batman began as a gun-toting vigilante that shot his opponents--that's pretty dark, no?

    As for adult, I don't equate sex and violence with adult. What exactly does DKR have to say about anything real? It's still escapist fantasy--well done and enjoyable--but no one will confuse it with actual literature. (I hope.)
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  11. #4361
    Heroic Warrior bamf1980's Avatar
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    A Superman and Wonder Woman to go with this would be amazing.
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  12. #4362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Country View Post
    Wow. Selective memory, much?

    - - - Updated - - -





    Thanks for saving me the typing!



    CBG_TwitterThumbnail_7_11-488x488.jpg

    Now I get it!!
    No, photographic memory, actually--not that it matters.

    Is there some reason why you seem to post what I can only imagine you believe are "clever retorts," rather than anything that even remotely adds to the discussion?

    If you need to delude yourself into believing that Dark Knight Returns did anything other than excite teens and immature adults living in their parent's basements, and that responding to facts with one line zingers makes you seem cool, then carry on.

  13. #4363
    Assimilate, or else!! krosfyah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Country View Post
    Wow. Selective memory, much?

    - - - Updated - - -





    Thanks for saving me the typing!



    CBG_TwitterThumbnail_7_11-488x488.jpg

    Now I get it!!
    This TRULY isn't a slight towards Chrisware, but that's what i had in mind too, and why I generally stay out of comic book threads and forums. Comic Book Guy's mentality runs RAMPANT amongst that community and I can't take it, they hate EVERYTHING and their opinion to them is 100% fact no matter what you say.
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  14. #4364
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisware View Post
    It's not history for me...I lived it. I worked in a comic book store during the early and mid eighties before opening my own store at the end of the decade.

    Any influence it had was confined to the small, insular world of super-hero comics. It's only real influence on the larger world beyond would be small bits that Nolan has incorporated into his trilogy---and that's minimal.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Not trying to be a cranky old windbag, but what you're saying is just not so.

    DKR was a big deal to comic-geeks. And it was hyped up for a time in the so-called real news. But so was the pathetic Death of Superman. DKR did not elevate the graphic novel in the eyes of non-comic readers in any way. Watchmen did, although nowhere near as much as Maus, Love and Rockets, Jimmy Corrigan, Ghost World, etc.

    Dark Knight made Batman relevant again--but only to super-hero comic fans.

    And I'm not sure it made comics darker--Batman began as a gun-toting vigilante that shot his opponents--that's pretty dark, no?

    As for adult, I don't equate sex and violence with adult. What exactly does DKR have to say about anything real? It's still escapist fantasy--well done and enjoyable--but no one will confuse it with actual literature. (I hope.)

    Some of those books you cited as elevating the graphic novel to the general public I've never even heard of, and that's as a comic reader. I've heard of Maus, and I only know Ghost World because of the movie.

    And nobody said anything about it elevating the status of comic books to outsiders. Just that it is one of the most influential comic books, ie. affected the insular comic world as you stated. How many comic writers cite DKR as a big influence? I know I've read interviews with several comic people who do.

  15. #4365
    Assimilate, or else!! krosfyah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoffman View Post
    Some of those books you cited as elevating the graphic novel to the general public I've never even heard of, and that's as a comic reader. I've heard of Maus, and I only know Ghost World because of the movie.

    And nobody said anything about it elevating the status of comic books to outsiders. Just that it is one of the most influential comic books, ie. affected the insular comic world as you stated. How many comic writers cite DKR as a big influence? I know I've read interviews with several comic people who do.
    And I'm pretty sure most people only know of the watchmen book through the hyped up movie, they had NO IDEA about it when it came out. (and to be honest it's not really my personal cup of tea)
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  16. #4366
    Heroic Warrior hauke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisware View Post
    It's not history for me...I lived it. I worked in a comic book store during the early and mid eighties before opening my own store at the end of the decade.

    Any influence it had was confined to the small, insular world of super-hero comics. It's only real influence on the larger world beyond would be small bits that Nolan has incorporated into his trilogy---and that's minimal.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Not trying to be a cranky old windbag, but what you're saying is just not so.

    DKR was a big deal to comic-geeks. And it was hyped up for a time in the so-called real news. But so was the pathetic Death of Superman. DKR did not elevate the graphic novel in the eyes of non-comic readers in any way. Watchmen did, although nowhere near as much as Maus, Love and Rockets, Jimmy Corrigan, Ghost World, etc.

    Dark Knight made Batman relevant again--but only to super-hero comic fans.

    And I'm not sure it made comics darker--Batman began as a gun-toting vigilante that shot his opponents--that's pretty dark, no?

    As for adult, I don't equate sex and violence with adult. What exactly does DKR have to say about anything real? It's still escapist fantasy--well done and enjoyable--but no one will confuse it with actual literature. (I hope.)
    Are you sure so many people know Watchmen outside of the comic geek community? As far as I remember when the movie came out a couple of years ago a lot of explanation had to be done to the general public what that was all about. Again I doubt it had wider influence to the general public then TDKR. But I have no numbers to prove it so I will just disagree with you on that point.
    Yes Batman started out as a much darker hero but at the point TDKR came out he was hardly that. So maybe it did not make comics darker for the first time but it definitely made them darker again. Wether that is good or bad is not the point but it did have an influence nevertheless.
    As for the adult and violence comment was not Watchmen as violent and even more sexual as TDKR? To be fair one of the main reasons Watchmen was praised was that it showed superheroes as normal people with sexual urges and vices. Violence and sex can be part of good adult literature if handeled right. Oh and when I read TDKR for the first time in my teens it made me think about a lot of real stuff. Violence in our society, the cold war, manipulation in our media and so on. In fact one of the things that stood out for me the most was Gordons philosophical debate about wether Roosevelt should have let Pearl Harbour happen if he had known about it. It is not Shakespeare for sure but it is a well crafted story with lots of serious undergoing themes that showed one of superhero comics most popular characters in a whole new light.
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  17. #4367
    Evil Lord of the Deadlift Larry Waters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisware View Post
    No, photographic memory, actually--not that it matters.

    Is there some reason why you seem to post what I can only imagine you believe are "clever retorts," rather than anything that even remotely adds to the discussion?

    If you need to delude yourself into believing that Dark Knight Returns did anything other than excite teens and immature adults living in their parent's basements, and that responding to facts with one line zingers makes you seem cool, then carry on.
    My "clever retorts" are more readily endured by moderators than my preferred response to the elitist pap you're spouting.

    Quote Originally Posted by krosfyah View Post
    This TRULY isn't a slight towards Chrisware, but that's what i had in mind too, and why I generally stay out of comic book threads and forums. Comic Book Guy's mentality runs RAMPANT amongst that community and I can't take it, they hate EVERYTHING and their opinion to them is 100% fact no matter what you say.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoffman View Post
    Some of those books you cited as elevating the graphic novel to the general public I've never even heard of, and that's as a comic reader. I've heard of Maus, and I only know Ghost World because of the movie.

    And nobody said anything about it elevating the status of comic books to outsiders. Just that it is one of the most influential comic books, ie. affected the insular comic world as you stated. How many comic writers cite DKR as a big influence? I know I've read interviews with several comic people who do.
    Quote Originally Posted by hauke View Post
    Are you sure so many people know Watchmen outside of the comic geek community? As far as I remember when the movie came out a couple of years ago a lot of explanation had to be done to the general public what that was all about. Again I doubt it had wider influence to the general public then TDKR. But I have no numbers to prove it so I will just disagree with you on that point.
    Yes Batman started out as a much darker hero but at the point TDKR came out he was hardly that. So maybe it did not make comics darker for the first time but it definitely made them darker again. Wether that is good or bad is not the point but it did have an influence nevertheless.
    As for the adult and violence comment was not Watchmen as violent and even more sexual as TDKR? To be fair one of the main reasons Watchmen was praised was that it showed superheroes as normal people with sexual urges and vices. Violence and sex can be part of good adult literature if handeled right. Oh and when I read TDKR for the first time in my teens it made me think about a lot of real stuff. Violence in our society, the cold war, manipulation in our media and so on. In fact one of the things that stood out for me the most was Gordons philosophical debate about wether Roosevelt should have let Pearl Harbour happen if he had known about it. It is not Shakespeare for sure but it is a well crafted story with lots of serious undergoing themes that showed one of superhero comics most popular characters in a whole new light.
    Again, thank you for saving me the trouble of typing!
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  18. #4368
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    Quote Originally Posted by krosfyah View Post
    This TRULY isn't a slight towards Chrisware, but that's what i had in mind too, and why I generally stay out of comic book threads and forums. Comic Book Guy's mentality runs RAMPANT amongst that community and I can't take it, they hate EVERYTHING and their opinion to them is 100% fact no matter what you say.
    I, for one, certainly do not hate everything. I mentioned a lot of stuff I like quite a bit. And I liked Dark Knight Returns. I just said there's stuff that's a lot better. Most of what I was saying, though, is centered around its supposed influence--which I felt was being drastically over stated by several posters.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoffman View Post
    Some of those books you cited as elevating the graphic novel to the general public I've never even heard of, and that's as a comic reader. I've heard of Maus, and I only know Ghost World because of the movie.

    And nobody said anything about it elevating the status of comic books to outsiders. Just that it is one of the most influential comic books, ie. affected the insular comic world as you stated. How many comic writers cite DKR as a big influence? I know I've read interviews with several comic people who do.
    I wasn't talking about the general public. Surveys seem to indicate that roughly 90% of our country doesn't read. But for people that do, the stuff I mentioned was eye-opening in a way that a Batman comic could never be.

    If you haven't even heard of the stuff I mentioned, then I assume you only read mainstream, mostly super-hero comics.

    To be clear, I am in no way denigrating you for that and I have no problem with it whatsoever. But you are missing out on a lot of the best the medium has to offer. Give them a try, you might really like some of it.

    And, again, I agree that Dark Knight influenced mainstream super-hero comics--no argument there.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by hauke View Post
    Are you sure so many people know Watchmen outside of the comic geek community? As far as I remember when the movie came out a couple of years ago a lot of explanation had to be done to the general public what that was all about. Again I doubt it had wider influence to the general public then TDKR. But I have no numbers to prove it so I will just disagree with you on that point.
    Yes Batman started out as a much darker hero but at the point TDKR came out he was hardly that. So maybe it did not make comics darker for the first time but it definitely made them darker again. Wether that is good or bad is not the point but it did have an influence nevertheless.
    As for the adult and violence comment was not Watchmen as violent and even more sexual as TDKR? To be fair one of the main reasons Watchmen was praised was that it showed superheroes as normal people with sexual urges and vices. Violence and sex can be part of good adult literature if handeled right. Oh and when I read TDKR for the first time in my teens it made me think about a lot of real stuff. Violence in our society, the cold war, manipulation in our media and so on. In fact one of the things that stood out for me the most was Gordons philosophical debate about wether Roosevelt should have let Pearl Harbour happen if he had known about it. It is not Shakespeare for sure but it is a well crafted story with lots of serious undergoing themes that showed one of superhero comics most popular characters in a whole new light.
    Again, I am not talking about the general public. Most people don't read books, graphic novels, comics or anything else, so there's no point in discussing the influence a comic has on them. It has none. The general public is as unaware of Dark Knight Returns as they are of most of the authors studied in an undergraduate comparative literature course.

    I agree that sex and violence can be an integral part of serious literature. My point was that tarting up Catwoman and killing the Joker doesn't equate to an adult version of Batman.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Country View Post
    My "clever retorts" are more readily endured by moderators than my preferred response to the elitist pap you're spouting.







    Again, thank you for saving me the trouble of typing!
    Are you actually saying that you can't disagree with someone without either resorting to childish one liners or responding in such an immature, inflammatory manner that you would be admonished by the moderators?

    That's sad.

    But I did find it amusing that you accused me of being elitist while I was discussing comic books and Batman. I had no idea my tastes were so high brow. Maybe the Queen of England will invite me to tea to debate the Frank Miller ouevre.

  19. #4369
    Evil Lord of the Deadlift Larry Waters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisware View Post
    I, for one, certainly do not hate everything. I mentioned a lot of stuff I like quite a bit. And I liked Dark Knight Returns. I just said there's stuff that's a lot better. Most of what I was saying, though, is centered around its supposed influence--which I felt was being drastically over stated by several posters.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I wasn't talking about the general public. Surveys seem to indicate that roughly 90% of our country doesn't read. But for people that do, the stuff I mentioned was eye-opening in a way that a Batman comic could never be.

    If you haven't even heard of the stuff I mentioned, then I assume you only read mainstream, mostly super-hero comics.

    To be clear, I am in no way denigrating you for that and I have no problem with it whatsoever. But you are missing out on a lot of the best the medium has to offer. Give them a try, you might really like some of it.

    And, again, I agree that Dark Knight influenced mainstream super-hero comics--no argument there.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Again, I am not talking about the general public. Most people don't read books, graphic novels, comics or anything else, so there's no point in discussing the influence a comic has on them. It has none. The general public is as unaware of Dark Knight Returns as they are of most of the authors studied in an undergraduate comparative literature course.

    I agree that sex and violence can be an integral part of serious literature. My point was that tarting up Catwoman and killing the Joker doesn't equate to an adult version of Batman.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Are you actually saying that you can't disagree with someone without either resorting to childish one liners or responding in such an immature, inflammatory manner that you would be admonished by the moderators?

    That's sad.

    But I did find it amusing that you accused me of being elitist while I was discussing comic books and Batman. I had no idea my tastes were so high brow. Maybe the Queen of England will invite me to tea to debate the Frank Miller ouevre.
    Nope, simply said that your opinion on TDKR is not worth anything more well thought-out.

    Ohhh...who's clever now?

    See how fun and easy it is???

    The fact remains that TDKR is way more important and had way more of an impact than you're willing to admit.


    That OR tons of fans and creators are wrong and you're the only one that can see the truth. Now, which of those two is the most likely?

    TDKR didn't just influence "super heroes"...it influenced the entire industry.

    As far as how TDKR impacted non-readers, I can say that prior to seeing it in a bookstore, I had NEVER owned a DC or Marvel book except for GI Joe. In fact, reading TDKR in the spring of 1989 launched me into becoming an actual comic book fan.
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    Heroic Warrior hauke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisware View Post
    Most of what I was saying, though, is centered around its supposed influence--which I felt was being drastically over stated by several posters.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I wasn't talking about the general public. Surveys seem to indicate that roughly 90% of our country doesn't read. But for people that do, the stuff I mentioned was eye-opening in a way that a Batman comic could never be.
    If you haven't even heard of the stuff I mentioned, then I assume you only read mainstream, mostly super-hero comics.
    And, again, I agree that Dark Knight influenced mainstream super-hero comics--no argument there.

    - - - Updated - - -
    O.k. you are saying that we overestimate the influence of TDKR compared to stuff like Maus. But at the same time you admit that TDKR had a big influence on mainstream super-hero comics. Now since the majority of comics sold and read in the US are super-hero based comics would that not by definition make the TDKR a more influential comic? As in it influenced a far larger part of the US comic industry then the other examples you cited since those are only for a small intellectual minority? Influence does not always equal quality.

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisware View Post
    I agree that sex and violence can be an integral part of serious literature. My point was that tarting up Catwoman and killing the Joker doesn't equate to an adult version of Batman.

    - - - Updated - - -
    Well first of all Batman did not kill Joker in Dark Knight. Secondly as I stated in my previous post the Dark Knight has a lot of other undergoing themes I would define as adult. No Batman comic before made me ever think about politics. The Dark Knight did. If you think tarting up Catwoman is why people think the TDKR is an adult comic book then you did not get the point of the comic. That is like saying people think Watchmen is adult because it shows big blue male genitalia. :-)
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  21. #4371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Country View Post
    Nope, simply said that your opinion on TDKR is not worth anything more well thought-out.

    Ohhh...who's clever now?

    See how fun and easy it is???

    The fact remains that TDKR is way more important and had way more of an impact than you're willing to admit.


    That OR tons of fans and creators are wrong and you're the only one that can see the truth. Now, which of those two is the most likely?

    TDKR didn't just influence "super heroes"...it influenced the entire industry.

    As far as how TDKR impacted non-readers, I can say that prior to seeing it in a bookstore, I had NEVER owned a DC or Marvel book except for GI Joe. In fact, reading TDKR in the spring of 1989 launched me into becoming an actual comic book fan.
    This is getting tiresome, so I will address you one last time, probably because I have a Don Quixote complex, then I will let you have the last word, which I'm sure will be filled with awesomeness.

    No, you did not say that my opinion wasn't worth something well thought out. You said your response would be unacceptable to the mods. Not even remotely the same thing.

    Who's clever now? Hmm...I will go with "not you."

    Now Dark Knight is important, too? Whatever you say, dude.

    And I see now you feel empowered to speak for tons of fans and creators. All of whom comprise the tiny little intellectually backward, emotionally retarded world of mainstream super-hero comics. They couldn't ask for a better ambassador. And exactly what truth are they all seeing? Even the hacks who are currently working on the latest continuity reboot don't delude themselves into thinking that Frank Miller is considered a serious author by anyone with a high school diploma or a library card.

    It influenced the entire industry? Not just super-heroes? Really? Yeah, Daniel Clowes, Jaime Hernandez, Chris Ware...the Dark Knight influence is so obvious I'm not sure how I missed it.

  22. #4372
    Heroic Warrior hauke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisware View Post
    This is getting tiresome, so I will address you one last time, probably because I have a Don Quixote complex, then I will let you have the last word, which I'm sure will be filled with awesomeness.

    No, you did not say that my opinion wasn't worth something well thought out. You said your response would be unacceptable to the mods. Not even remotely the same thing.

    Who's clever now? Hmm...I will go with "not you."

    Now Dark Knight is important, too? Whatever you say, dude.

    And I see now you feel empowered to speak for tons of fans and creators. All of whom comprise the tiny little intellectually backward, emotionally retarded world of mainstream super-hero comics. They couldn't ask for a better ambassador. And exactly what truth are they all seeing? Even the hacks who are currently working on the latest continuity reboot don't delude themselves into thinking that Frank Miller is considered a serious author by anyone with a high school diploma or a library card.

    It influenced the entire industry? Not just super-heroes? Really? Yeah, Daniel Clowes, Jaime Hernandez, Chris Ware...the Dark Knight influence is so obvious I'm not sure how I missed it.
    O.k. you like reading smart stuff we get it. Still us dumb and stupid superhero readers are in the majority. Sorry to tell you but influence is as much about size as it is about quality. So guys like Daniel Clowes, Jaime Hernandez, Chris Ware influence you and your small group of library card owners more then the TDKR? Good for you. But saying those guys had a larger influence on comics is like saying some small independend SF film had a bigger influence on science fiction movies then Star Wars. Oh by the way you are posting on a toyboard discussing a superhero comic. If you are so into all that smart and meaningful stuff wouldn't it be better if you spend your time on a Nobel price for literature message board or something like that?
    Last edited by hauke; August 12, 2012 at 04:31pm.
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  23. #4373
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    Quote Originally Posted by hauke View Post
    O.k. you like reading smart stuff we get it. Still us dumb and stupid superhero readers are in the majority. Sorry to tell you but influence is as much about size as it is about quality. So guys like Daniel Clowes, Jaime Hernandez, Chris Ware influence you and your small group of library card owners more then the TDKR? Good for you. But saying those guys had a larger influence on comics is like saying some small independend SF film had a bigger influence on science fiction movies then Star Wars. Oh by the way you are posting on a toyboard discussing a superhero comic. If you are so into all that smart and meaningful stuff wouldn't it be better if you spend your time on a Nobel price for literature message board or something like that?
    I did not say that Clowes, et al had a bigger influence on comics. Did you even read my original post and its subsequent follow ups?

    Your statement that a site like this one is an inappropriate forum in which to discuss what makes something great art is demeaning to everyone who posts here.

    Your entire tone is defensive and belligerent. I'm sorry if it bothers you that someone doesn't think Frank Miller is a genius, and actually has adult reading tastes, but that's not my problem.

    And it has nothing to do with "dumb super-heroes" or elitism. Nolan's trilogy is brilliant. Miller's Dark Knight isn't.

  24. #4374
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    O.k. you like reading smart stuff
    That sounds like a comeback Jerry Springer contestants would come up with.

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    I loved the issue one of Dark knight returns... the whole 'old washed up batman' putting the suit on and going back in one last time...'

    Awesome read...

    Everything AFTER that... the mutants, Batmans' war' Superman as a government stooge... All rubbish. Dark knight strikes back?? Even worse.

    Point of fact... I liked some of Frank Miller's Daredevil run, but on the whole, I think he's DRASTICALLY overrated. Same with Morre's Watchman.

    Ok read... Best part is how the bad guy WON.. Bot overall... too in love with it's own 'genius' to be taken seriously.

    They BOTH influenced the comic world fairly evenly... and unfortunately. OUTSIDE Comic collector's?? They BOTH mean NOTHING. As Hauke pointed out... They needed to publish primers about who and what Watchmen was... and WHY it was important to the world around it...

    Which... kind of means it WASN'T. You rarely need articles pointing out who Edgar Allen Poe was... or Who Shakespeare was... But Frank Miller? We're still TELLING people who He is... They're a lot like famous sports stars, the barry Bonds, and the Wayne Gretzykes... Only the people who care about the genre... care about the people in it.


    They were both influence... however, I don';t think it was a GOOD influence. It's an effect that is as far reaching as MOTUC... It turned 'kids stuff' into 'Adult stuff'. And I REALLY Hate that...

    They turned a pointy eared detective in a bat costume... and convinced the world that this was 'dark and meaningful'... That he was 'Adult orientated'. Comics everywhere followed suit, and soon the comics code was gone.. and now the mainstream comics have Batman and catwoman having sex on a rooftop.

    'For the Adults'...

    Reaches even into the toy world... How many threads have we seen about these 'Adult collectibles'?

    They aren't.

    They're TOYS.

    If you are an adult who likes to read comics about brightly colored heroes and buys toys... EMBRACE IT!!!

    I Like comics because they were good and wholesome. Heroes who would never get involved in a sex scandle or a steroid scam, or arrested for DUI's like the 'real heroes' of the world.

    I collect toys because they remind me of my childhood, and I enjoy embracing that feeling whenever I can...

    Sadly the kids don't ahve anywhere to go anymore... The 'Toys' are $30 a piece now... while theirs are all big feeted/handed, goofy looking monstrosities.. the Entire DC universe used to be 'Safe'... now there's about 5-6 books that are considered 'all-ages'

    Even the Cartoon network, moved toward 'adult cartoons'...

    All this I lay at Frank Miller's and Alan Moore's feet. Yes they were both influencial... and YES, I wish they had never picked up a pencil

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