Recently I was going through my Batman: the Animated Series boxed sets again (I own volumes one and three).
Credit where credit is due: the show is a fun little comic book romp.
But, am I the only person who thinks this show is a little, well, over-rated? I'm always hearing about how deep the writing was and how so many bars were raised but.. I just don't see it. IMO its actually kind of a step back, in some ways, from efforts like He-Man in terms of writing and characterization.
Like, for example, how all these villains are locked up in Arkham and yet they somehow STILL have the funding and resources to make fear toxins, mind-control chips, or rocket-propelled Christmas trees. I mean, are they given these things as part of their therapy or something?
Or all the changed character premises... like how Jervis Tetch (did I spell his name right?) starts out as basically a good guy who fell victim to temptation, but in later episodes is just another villain with a gimmick. Poison Ivy too--has a very specific purpose at first, but near the end she's just a crook with plants. About the only crook who has any sort of real development or consistency is Mr. Freeze (though it is kind of bizarre that his wife is clearly dead but then they turn and say "Oh she's alive").
[Speaking of which, question of personal curiosity: Have any storylines--comics or otherwise--ever explored what would happen if Two-Face knew who Batman was?]
Another issue I kinda have is that... Batman never really needs effort, like He-Man often does. He just depends on the grace of the writers, and sometimes they really suspend logic for the ol' caped-and-cowled one. There's a really blatant example of what I mean in the Clock King episode (not gonna spoil it, but anyone whose seen that episode probably knows what I mean).
I don't really get that about superhero shows: One, why do the criminals even bother when the city is being patrolled by a tough-jawed vigilante who has cars, boats, and planes (not to mention an assortment of gizmos that would make Buck Rogers jealous)? Or why does Batman even bother when he just ends up having to recapture the same criminals again and again without any hope of permanent resolution (I mean, besides being crazy and all)?
Anyway, there's my ramble.
I hear ya. I think people think they like it the best cause of the dynamic styling's. Its probably visually the best Batman ever.
Whilst I will agree to it, most of the episodes to me currently (now remeber i was die hard on this when i was young) are a total snooze fest.
I prefer "The Batman".... its just more wacky fun. Its not the most accurate thing ever, but I find it to be just alot of enjoyable moments!
"We are the tools of our own imagination, constructing temples and cathedrals in which our most outlandish dreams become truth." - Samael
You got to let some things go when you bring up superheroes. Contrary to what Batman Begins has started, these villains would not function in real life.
What made Batman:TAS significant was the visual style and use of characters. The series broke new ground in how far an animated show could go. Without BTAS, we would not have many of the great comic book series that we have now. There would not have been a Superman, JL and JLU without BTAS. Not to mention The Batman and the DVD animated movies.
We survived the long night.... MOTU Forever!
Amen to that brotherOriginally Posted by bskcase
I tend to let the loop holes go myself. I enjoyed the series back then and yes for its time it was great, IMO. Not as great as the writing in JLU looking back but I'm not complaining.
"Milk is for babies" - Arnold Schwarzenneger
you mention the Mad Hatter's first episode as well as poison Ivy's first episode and state how they had more than just a villain with a gimmick - those are the reasons the show is lauded. it was episodes like that one, See No Evil, On LEather Wings, THe Demon's Quest, POV, Feat of Clay (part 1 and 2) Two-Face (part one), Robin's Reckoning and particularly Heart of Ice that really brought kids cartoons to a new level of respectability.
sure there were some hiccups in logic, but hey we're watching a show about a guy who dresses up as a bat, you can't expect it to REALLY be 100% believable, honestly name one cartoon that is fun to watch or heck video game that is fun to play that IS 100% believable.
I don't see ANYTHING that would have made this show a step BACK from what cartoons were. it seems you're condeming the entire show and the ground it broke by a few hiccups in logic and yes there were some moments that sucked IMO but it's 10000000000 times better than a buncha anthropomorphic cats running around in 'onesies'. Batman TAS broke ground in ways that no cartoon did prior to it. it may have had followed some formulas here and there - but hey Fox still had to try to get in the kids and Hasbro had to sell toys. If you found the show BORING then most likely you prefer your entertainment to focus less on characterization and plot pacing and more on action - nothing wrong with that at all, but to really say it was over rated is just not seeing the forest for the trees as they say. it may not hold up AS well now but it's still good and i'd say only falters 15 years later due to the strong stuff that came after and because of it.
As for Two-face knowing who Batman is - they've never done that as far as I remember, but Riddler found out prior to the Hush storyline.
Last edited by krosfyah; August 6, 2007 at 04:48am.
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Are you serious? You honestly think BTAS was a step BACK from the original MOTU?
Have you watched the original He-Man cartoon recently? Haven't you noticed how 90% of the episodes are EXACTLY the same?
1) Skeletor: "at last I've found a way to beat He-Man! I'll use [insert magical device here]!"
2) Skeletor uses said plot device. Heroes give a collective "oh no."
3) He-Man has either a conversation with the Sorceress or otherwise manages to find out how to overcome said plot device.
4) He-Man has a "fight" with the bad guys. "Fight" being in quotation marks because it consists of him hitting the enemies one time and they're down.
5) He-Man destroys plot device.
6) Skeletor: "i'll get you next time He-Man"
8) Everything returns to the status quo, never to be remembered again.
7) Close with comedic moment from Orko and/or Cringer.
Now I love the original MOTU cartoon - obviously, otherwise I wouldn't be here on he-man.org - but mostly for nostalgia at this point. But to say that it is more advanced than Batman: The Animated Series is absolutely rediculous.
At the time it was released BTAS had the most dynamic storytelling yet seen in a children's cartoon. Every episode was like a miniature movie. Not to mention the fact that it actually HAD CONTINUITY, something that, before then, was virtually unheard of in kids' cartoons. And unlike MOTU and most other kids' shows, not once throughout the entire series (and yes, I can confirm that as I own the entirety of BTAS) was there a blatant toy commercial.
It had, and still does have, some of the most well developed characters ever featured in an animated series (as you said yourself, they're more than just gimmicks, which is much more than can be said about most filmation MOTU characters).
It has arguably the best voice cast ever assembled for a cartoon series. For example, I have yet to meet any fan who doesn't think that Mark Hammil's Joker voice is by far the definitive voice for the character. The cast is infinitely superior to MOTU's cast of five actors, which lead to all of the characters' voices sounding alike apart from He-Man and Skeletor.
Unlike any cartoon series that had come before it, and most that have come since, it didn't use stock music. It had an original score - performed by a FULL ORCHESTRA - for EACH episode, replete with fully developed themes for many characters.
Not to mention it had a completely innovative, totally kick ass visual style that has influenced EVERY American cartoon series that has been produced since.
Oh yeah, and it won Emmy awards. How many other kids' cartoons can say that?
Now, Batman: The Animated Series is my favorite television show of all time, so I will admit that I'm a bit biased. BUT, regardless of that, to say that it is inferior in terms of production to prior children's cartoons is just completely unfounded.
Most animated shows made around the time of the first MOTU were more designed for children specifically, about up to the age of 12 or so. Which meant simpler plots and just an episodic plot.
After the simpson's had been on for a bit, fox and a few others had some toons that were aimed at more of a teenage audience. Batman, X-Men, Spider-Man are examples of these. They had less of an episodic feel and more of an overarching feel.
Which also led into anime becoming more popular stateside.
Of course the show had/has it's flaws, but pretty much all do. Does this one deserve praise? Yeah, but X-men came out almost the exact same time as did other shows so it may not need as much as it does get.
One Gum Drop to rule them all, One Gum Drop to find them,
One Gum Drop to bring them all and in the sweetness bind them
In the Land of Candy where the Gingerbreads lie.
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There are sentences I should just stay a way from. - The Doctor
Rob Liefeld isn't a comic artist, he's a women's clothing designer. Think about it
Thanks, VaderLives, for reacting the way you did so that I didn't have to! I would have written just as an incredulous post as you if you hadn't done it already.
Frankly, I get amazed when the original MOTU is held higher in terms of quality over pretty much anything, let alone Batman!
I mean, I love MOTU to death as well, but certainly not for its technical achievements and/or compelling storytelling!
Personally I thought the fox X-men toon was pretty mediocre for the most part. the animation was usually terrible, and the pacing was so unbalanced. it was a good effort to bring something big to the table but it just felt as though it never really delivered in what it had the potential to do. and really Batman TAS was the first to come out and deliver that more mature vibe, the rest got in because of the success of Batman. without it we wouldn't have had the (mostly) awesome Gargoyles that's for sure!
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I've got everything that I need, right in front of me! Life's a happy song people!
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Yah, me too! Thanks VaderLives!
To me, most of 8-Bit Star issues don't come across as Batman was a poor show because of x, y, and z. It sounds more like Batman was a poor show because it wasn't written like He-man.
If you personally don't like Batman/superheros because of your tastes- that is cool. But to judge the quality of the series based on your tastes isn't fair.
not saying x-men was great, And from my research batman came out in sept of '92 and x-men oct of '92.
Batman was the big influence, just saying there were other series that came out at the same time that helped. Pirates of dark water came out in '91 and fox's Peter Pan and the Pirates came out in '90 both of which were a bit more mature then previous toons and had continuity, and apparently Tim Curry won and Emmy for his portrayal of Hook in the later.
One Gum Drop to rule them all, One Gum Drop to find them,
One Gum Drop to bring them all and in the sweetness bind them
In the Land of Candy where the Gingerbreads lie.
-Tag line for the Candy Land Movie Adaptation
There are sentences I should just stay a way from. - The Doctor
Rob Liefeld isn't a comic artist, he's a women's clothing designer. Think about it
I enjoyed the show. I thought it had good stories and was well written, plus I really liked the shows that it led to. However, I never actually liked the animation style of those shows. The overly square jaws and whatnot didn't appeal to me.
Eh, I was going to reply in greater detail, but by time I got to the end of the first post it seemed like the whole rant boiled down to "superheroes bad, He-Man good." I like He-Man too, obviously, but Batman TAS is leaps and bounds better in all possible ways. I can still watch most of Batman TAS, I can't watch He-Man at all without cringing.
Actually, as much as I absolutely LOVE the 90s X-Men cartoon (which needs to be released on DVD yesterday!), the quality of the animation for B:TAS was infinitely superior. For example, in Night of the Sentinels there's a long shot of Rogue picking up a soldier out of a tower and throwing him on the ground, and throughout the duration of the shot the soldier goes from being a black guy with brown hair to a lighter skinned black guy with red hair to a white guy with red hair. Again, this all happens within the same shot. Those kind of mistakes happened all the time in that series. Batman NEVER had those kind of drastic animation errors.
Likewise, the Spidey cartoon that came out around the same time also had a lot of those type of animation errors. And it also used a TON of stock footage, something B:TAS never did, which is another thing that set it far apart from most other cartoons. I mean, going back to the MOTU example, every episode of MOTU was literally about 80% stock footage interposed onto different backgrounds.
The vast amount of time, effort, and money that was put into each and every episode of Batman: The Animated Series was completely unprecedented. It's really incredible when you stop and think about it. The show is nothing short of amazing.
And how many other children's cartoons at the time were loved just as much, if not moreso, by adults?
I really have become more and more impressed by that incredible series as the years have gone on. I mean, for example, I never really thought about it when I was a kid, but now it just completely blows me away that it had a FULL ORCHESTRAL SCORE for EACH INDIVIDUAL EPISODE! And I'm not even talking about synthesizers, they actually had a full freakin' ORCHESTRA! Most live action TV series don't even get that kind of treatment, let alone an after school children's cartoon! Do people not realize just how unbelievably amazing that is?
Batman: The Animated Series most certainly does deserve every bit of adulation it receives, and then some!
Oh, and about Mr. Freeze's wife. She was never dead, she was frozen in suspended animation. And in the direct-to-video movie Sub Zero, Freeze does eventually succeed in curing her and waking her up. However it was later established that at some point during the two year gap (storyline wise) between that and the New Batman Adventures she realized what evil things he had done and she left him, which is what caused him to go bad again.
Last edited by VaderLives; August 7, 2007 at 10:37pm.
For Batman there's a psychological need to do what he does.
He became Batman to avenge his parents deaths. After he did that, he moved on to clean up the rest of Gotham. After that, what's there to do? If every one of the criminals are dead, then he stops having a reason to be Batman, and nothing for the rest of his life will ever compare to the adventure and near-death experiences he had, so he'll become depressed, moody, and brood a lot, and that's if he doesn't kill himself. Everyone knows Arkham is a crap hole where the staff is just as crazy as the patients, which makes it easy for the inmates to escape and continue the cycle.
Beware of Sham Wow imitators.
As far as cartoons go, BTAS is one of the best. Superman and Justice League were good, but not on the same level (maybe I just like Batman more). I also loved the '90's Spider-Man and thought the continuity and storytelling was great. Never liked the X-Men toon very much, but then I'm not a big fan of that franchise.
I also like The Batman, but it is a different style than BTAS. It is more of a "superhero show", if you know what I mean (ie. less realistic).
My name is Pan . . . and I am the Man.
Is He-Man better than Batman?
I think first we have to understand that any answer one way or the other is going to be subjective. Fans always try to make out their personal preference is somehow a fact, but... it just isn't, period. You can defend it, but its still an opinion.
Now that being said, yes I do think He-Man is the better show. Not because of anything it necessarily does better (though I do think its more overall creative and I do personally have a preference for fantasy adventures over superheroes), but just because I'm more bothered by Batman's shortcomings than I am by He-Man's. I can stand some comedy relief, some inherent corniness, some moralizing, and seeing He-Man deflect laser bolts using the same forty-five degree sword motion.
But its hard for me to reconcile a lot of Batman's logic snafus and inconsistencies, some of which I've already mentioned, or how despite what I've heard there's actually less continuity with the villains here than in most other cartoons. I mentioned Jervis Tetch before... he appears first in an episode where he's clearly motivated by a desire for one girl's love, and ends the episode seeming to regret his actions. Or Two-Face... motivated by revenge, willingly surrenders himself. Yet then when Tetch reappears, he's just stealing things, and Two-Face is running gangs... both apparently just for the sake of doing so.
Logic and continuity aren't the only things I look for in cartoons though. Emotional impact means a lot to me as well and in fact, if a show is really pulling my heart strings and making me laugh or cry or feel joy, I'll usually overlook any other flaws. This is why I still enjoyed Robotech when I first saw it in 2001 even though I had seen a lot of cartoons and anime with better animation and dialogue and less cliched storylines.
I know this'll probably get a lot of tomatoes thrown my way, but Batman often seems to, well, shortcut the drama so they can get to the parts where Batman is being cool and kicking butt. "Nothing to Fear," "The Forgotten," "The Underdwellers," are good examples (though admittedly Underdwellers could've suffered from Fox censorship... they had a rule against children in peril or something). In fact the only episodes I've seen recently that felt like they had real character drama were the Two-Face and Feat of Clay two-parters. Of those, only Feat of Clay comes close to being on the level of, say, Teela's Quest or Prince Adam No More in my opinion. A lot of Batman episodes keep me interested purely from a "I want to know how this ends" standpoint with no feeling of having a deeper emotional involvement.
As for what specifically made Batman a "step BACK" for cartoons, well... the way I see it, in the 1970s cartoons were dominated by these superhero shows that basically starred Mary Sues who never had to put real effort into solving their problems... like how no matter what happened to Space Ghost, he just had to press a button on his power gauntlets and instantly everything was okay. Then the 1980s came and raised the bar on that... no more perfect heroes--He-Man for example was getting tossed around, locked up, knocked out etc. and the limits of his powers were established pretty much up-front. In the 1990s though we started to see a kind-of return to the "perfect heroes" of the 1970s who seemed to have a built-in solution for everything, and that's almost certainly the case with Batman (SWAT Kats is another big example).
Well, that's my big explanation/rebuttle.
I loved the first season or so of Batman but I gotta say that it became a bit dull after a time.
I totally unerstand why folks rave about it as it was pretty fresh and dynamic when it came out.
But that that whole style got over used I think with Superman and JLA and did not stimulate me any more.
I'm a actually a big fan of The Batman series.
I think animation on a whole is far more exciting now than it's ever been.
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for the record I like "The Batman" as well and they've attempted to get a little deeper with their stories too lately. the animation level of that show is fantastic though, Avatar as well. I'm impressed with how much better animation is from a technical stand point for some of these kids cartoons these days. but I still long for the return to the 80s art style (more realistic looking characters and proportions esp women that look like women filmation did it the best IMO) with today's quality of animation (The Batman Avatar etc) and storytelling (avatar)
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Here, receiving praise is well in hand which is not really what I am against. I am more against what comes across as Batman The Animated Series is the sole reason we got more mature, continuity etc in cartoons in the following years to the show. And at the same time the often completely downplaying of any other show that may have contributed to later effect.
Did X-men have some serious flaws? Yes
Did X-men contribute to more mature, continuity etc? Yes
Did it give as big of a contribution as Batman:TAS? No
Should credit be given where credit is due? Of course
There were several shows that contributed to the whole thing in varying degrees and many of even came before Batman. Sure some of the shows had bigger flaws, some of them were only successful in getting on the air and having one of the attributes but they still played a part. Pirates of Dark Water is an example of that, and it still has a pretty decent following today. I don't necessarily believe that if these shows hadn't come out that Batman:TAS would not have happened either as you can't substantiate it one way or another, likewise if those hadn't come out we wouldn't have had the same end result.
===============
About batman being a 'mary sue.' This is always one of those claims I am a bit wary to throw around as reading up on the whole thing you can make arguments for just about any character every to be a 'mary sue.' I can easily arguing Harry Potter as one, I could argue that even He-man was one (his being knocked down was just to lighten his Mary-Sueness for example).
That said Batman is a character by design that can easily become Mary-sueesque. A highly intelligent, wealthy, resoursefull and capable fighter can quickly become that. This is the problem with writing the character, from what I remember though they did frequently have him get knocked down, over taken, surprised, and made him do his detective work through out the show. Did every episode do that well? Most likely not.
One Gum Drop to rule them all, One Gum Drop to find them,
One Gum Drop to bring them all and in the sweetness bind them
In the Land of Candy where the Gingerbreads lie.
-Tag line for the Candy Land Movie Adaptation
There are sentences I should just stay a way from. - The Doctor
Rob Liefeld isn't a comic artist, he's a women's clothing designer. Think about it
Wellt stuff like Ultimate Avengers and Iron Man have that more realistic style something I am very happy about.
But yes, there could be more variety in the animation style of shows.
Ben 10, JLA and The Batman all have that 'animated' style.
This is one reason why i can't wait to see the Bravestarr movie again. That was the last great piece of all america animation IMO.
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AH PEter Pan and the Pirates now THAT was a great show IMO and it needs the DVD treatment - the later episodes had lower quality animation from what I remember but it was a really good show and Curry deserved that award.- you're right Batman TAS didn't single handedly change the scape but it probably had the biggest impact overall. as for x-men I SWEAR it came out in 94 or 93 at the earliest. and i just said I didn't think it was all that great because a lot of people rate it and to me it was mosly a mess. but it does deserve some credit, it brought mavel's properties back to the small screen and eventually the big screen which is a big reason why we have so many comic movies now days.
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I've got everything that I need, right in front of me! Life's a happy song people!
Fear is faith in failure
I'm sorry, 8-bit Star, no offense, but you and I clearly must be watching two different shows. The ONLY instance in the original MOTU cartoon that I can recall He-Man EVER having to put forth any effort whatsoever was when he was fighting to crush the Diamond Ray of Disappearance.
He-Man NEVER had to struggle with anything. He was never in any sort of danger at all. Trapped in a cave? Thunder Punch a hole in the wall. Monster coming at him? Drop that tangle of vines on him that just happens to be hanging oh so conveniently over his head. Swarm of robot drones? No problem, I'll just swing my sword around and make a whirlwind to carry them off. Etc., etc., etc.
Any problem that He-Man was ever in was resolved in just a few seconds without breaking a sweat. And using the same stock animation that we've already seen in virtually every other episode.
And it was even worse with She-Ra, who could change her sword into anything she needed, which made her have to put forth even less effort than He-Man. And I wouldn't have thought that would even be possible.
Not to mention the fact that all of the enemies were a complete joke, even Skeletor (and coming from me that's saying a LOT). The retarded, useless spikey mutant from X-Men 3 was a more menacing threat than all of the Filmmation MOTU villains combined.
Now am I being a bit harsh? Probably. But that's because I have come to the upsetting realization that the concept of what the classic MOTU was that I had in my head growing up all my life is not at all what it actually was like. I know this is due to the fact that the cartoon was taken off the air when I was 3, and so all the things that I really thought were true of the classic MOTU were actually constructed in my head from playing with my toys and watching the movie. The 2003 MOTU cartoon is how I've always imagined MOTU to be: Skeletor is actually evil rather than a bumbling idiot, the enemies actually pose a legitimate, serious threat, and, most importantly, He-Man actually has to WORK to overcome them. I mean, I still enjoy watching the DVDs of the classic show for the nostalgia of it, but honestly the only episode I can watch without cringing is "The Problem With Power." And I absolutely cannot stand Princess of Power.
But anyway, does Batman have a few logical inconsistencies here and there? Of course. But so does every other fictional story ever written. That's why it's called "fiction." It's not real. And that's where the concept of suspension of disbelief comes in, and B:TAS calls for an exponentially smaller amount of that than most other shows.
You also mention "The Underdwellers" and "The Forgotten" as low points of the series, and that's very true. Those are by far the WORST two episodes of the entire series.
And about the villains...of course their motivations changed throughout the course of the series! It would be boring to tell the same story over and over again for each bad guy. And that's one of the things that set B:TAS apart from most other shows before it, the characters actually grew. All of the MOTU villains aside from Skeletor were just walking gimmics, whereas the villains in Batman were fully developed characters. And in fact, Two Face in particular had possibly the most complex character development of any of the villains. There were many instances of the two halves of his personality fighting with each other, and it made him a very compelling character. For instance the episode "Second Chance," where the psichiatrists think that Harvey has overcome his evil side and they're about to give him plastic surgery to restore his face, but Two Face arranges his own kidnapping (unbeknownst to Harvey) to prevent it. And at the very end of the New Batman Adventures run they even had Harvey create a third alternate personality to fight back against Two Face.
And then another example, of course, is the whole Joker/Harly relationship...
I'm sorry, but I cannot see how anyone could possibly consider the storytelling in B:TAS a step BACK from Filmation.
And I'm not saying that Batman was the ONLY thing that raised the quality of animation. Far from it. But there's no denying that it had the biggest influence by far.
Yes, Peter Pan and the Pirates and, especially, Pirates of Dark Water were EXCELLENT shows (which I would LOVE to see again). As were X-Men and Spider-Man (which, again, need to be released on DVD yesterday). But in terms of the quality of production there's almost no comparison. Every episode of Batman had the production values of a feature film. That's what was so unprecedented about it, and that's why it was so groundbreaking.
Those are pretty much my thoughts exactly. He-Man basically embodied the whole "mary sue" concept. He was perfect all the time and the few times where he was knocked down or "trapped" for a minute just served to lengthen the episode so that it was long enough to fill up 22 minutes. He-Man was never in any peril, or even the slightest of danger from any of the villains.
When it comes to characterization, MOTU had none. There was an odd episode here and there that tried to give people some background, but for the most part the characters were utterly 2 dimensional, frequently not even rising past 1 dimensional. The 200x MOTU series on the other hand actually did work on giving the characters some personality and depth, even though it also had its flaws.
Batman on the other hand actually focused on character growth and people changing. For instance, there was an excellent episode where we learn about why Grayson was no longer Robin. The villains changed and evolved over the years so that they too had actual personalities, as opposed to simply being bad for the sake of being bad.
Oddly enough I'm on the last disc of the first season right now, and I'm remembering why I never watched it when it was on television. The cartoon isn't terrible, but it's really not that great.
It is strange how all the villains operate in Gotham. Batman has this amazing jet that can probably get him across a few states in a matter of hours, and yet he NEVER has to leave Gotham.
The Joker was actually kind of a disappointment, there were alot of times in the cartoon, and the Penguin was a total joke. He and his goons were beaten by a group of 8 year olds... LAME. Clayface was the only decent villain.
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