View Poll Results: Do you consider NA He-Man oficial canon of Filmation MOTU ?

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  • Yes it is canon

    42 60.00%
  • No it's not canon

    20 28.57%
  • i am still confused about it

    8 11.43%
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Thread: NA He-Man official canon of Filmation MOTU?

  1. #1
    King of Monsters Fallen_Master's Avatar
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    NA He-Man official canon of Filmation MOTU?

    Do you consider the new adventures of he-man oficial canon to the old filmation MOTU cartoon or just something different altogether?

    even though i have loved what i have seen in NA he-man, i am still confused as to consider it an official Continuity of the filmation series.

    i wanted to know what pepole think.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen_Master View Post
    Do you consider the new adventures of he-man oficial canon to the old filmation MOTU cartoon or just something different altogether?

    even though i have loved what i have seen in NA he-man, i am still confused as to consider it an official Continuity of the filmation series.

    i wanted to know what pepole think.
    To me it is. I consider NA as a continuation of Filmation's MOTU.
    But that's me.
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  3. #3
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    Well it's an ongoing question,. isn't it? So let's hope we can lay it to rest here and now, for once and all.

    I'm going to give you a two-part answer. The first part is the easiest. Marcus Aurelius once said, "Of each particular thing ask: What is it in itself?" N/A is, "in itself" a story about He-man going on an adventure. So that's pretty simple. But therein lies the confusion and the potential for acquiescence on the part of some N/A fans. And I've done a lot of thinking about this over the last few months. When some well meaning N/A fans say, "I take it as a separate adventure" what they're unconsciously (or maybe consciously) trying to do is to create an easy out for themselves and me and N/A. If we dodge the question about N/A being linked to MOTU and a continuation of it, they reason, then maybe MOTU fans won't feel quite so angry. And if they don't feel quite so angry, then maybe we can convince them to give N/A a try and pull them into the fold.

    That's well intentioned, but it's a mistake.

    Look, I created The New Adventures of He-Man and I didn't create it to be just "a different adventure." The litmus test is that if I and DIC had written and produced the series and used the artwork and animation and called the lead characters Tough-Man and Boney-boy, what do you think Mattel would have done? They would have sued our collective butts and they would have won. Because., as anyone can tell, these characters and their relationship are formed from the MOTU characters and relationships.

    I created N/A specifically to be a continuing part of the He-man story. And that, alone, should be enough to put the matter to rest. The degree to which I succeeded or failed is an entirely different matter and one for everyone out there to decide -- and I've said it a thousand times: everyone has a right to their opinion, I respect that and I don't expect everyone to love N/A.

    But what everyone does not have a right to an opinion about is this continuing debate about whether or not N/A is tied to and a continuation of MOTU. It is. I intended it to be tied to MOTU, I saw it as en extension of MOTU and it was not a separate adventure.

    Now let me give you my supporting reasons for why I feel it truly is an extension of MOTU. And I'll respectfully ask everyone who doesn't care for N/A to just momentarily put their feelings about the essence of the series aside and just focus on the question about whether or not it is an extension of the He-Man saga. Put your value judgements and subjective feelings aside for just a few seconds, so we can deal with this issue.

    First, and most simply, it's an extension because that's what I had intended it to be. Second, it's an extension because it uses characters and relationships that existed in the original series. And right now I can hear a lot of people out there shrieking "But he's not He-man! He's not Skeletor!!!" This is the argument we hear over and over again when people try to say N/A is not an extension of MOTU. But that argument is built on a false premise. It's a premise that says characters ought to never change. And I understand the reasons for this because television has a long history of characters remaining the same over five, ten and twenty years. But in LIFE, people change and people like to feel comfortable with characters they love. When you change them, when you try to make them grow, people get out of their comfort level and sometimes they even go berserk. If you don't believe me, rent Misery sometime. (Admittedly it's just a movie, but I'm sure glad she wasn't a rabidly loyal MOTU fan. )

    Think about what you were like five years ago. Are you the same today? Lord, I hope not. So I wanted to have He-man and Skeletor change -- kill me! I wanted them to experience growth -- it's why I had He-Man experience a small diminishment in his physical powers on Primus...so he could rely more on his wits and also so he'd finally be forced to figuratively take his gloves off and bare-knuckle it a little, no longer only letting the villains use street fighting tactics.

    And Skelly... Well, like I've said, he was already the most evil guy in the universe. I couldn't make him more evil, so I decided to give him a sense of humor. And what the heck is so wrong with that? God has a sense of humor. Just look at how big He made avocado seeds.

    So He-Man and Skeletor grew and they changed. But the battle continues and that battle started in previous incarnations of the franchise and that's a reason why N/A is a continuing part of the saga.

    Third, as I've said over and over in other posts, I had intended to take He-Man and Skelly back to Eternia in Season Two, so that would have sealed the deal that its a part of the canon. Of course Season Two never happened and I was faced with the unavoidable fact that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    But the bottom line here is that those with opposing views may claim He-Man and Skeletor weren't the same as they were in MOTU all they want (and they're right). The fact is, they are still He-Man and Skeletor. They may not be the He-man and Skeletor you want, but they are He-man and Skeletor, so learn to live with it.

    N/A is a part of the He-Man franchise. I based large parts of their personalities on the original franchise. He-Man is noble, Skeletor is a dog and they battle each other over and over and over again.

    Yes! Heavens, for once and all: It is a continuing part of the He-Man canon.

  4. #4
    King of Monsters Fallen_Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Well it's an ongoing question,. isn't it? So let's hope we can lay it to rest here and now, for once and all.

    I'm going to give you a two-part answer. The first part is the easiest. Marcus Aurelius once said, "Of each particular thing ask: What is it in itself?" N/A is, "in itself" a story about He-man going on an adventure. So that's pretty simple. But therein lies the confusion and the potential for acquiescence on the part of some N/A fans. And I've done a lot of thinking about this over the last few months. When some well meaning N/A fans say, "I take it as a separate adventure" what they're unconsciously (or maybe consciously) trying to do is to create an easy out for themselves and me and N/A. If we dodge the question about N/A being linked to MOTU and a continuation of it, they reason, then maybe MOTU fans won't feel quite so angry. And if they don't feel quite so angry, then maybe we can convince them to give N/A a try and pull them into the fold.

    That's well intentioned, but it's a mistake.

    Look, I created The New Adventures of He-Man and I didn't create it to be just "a different adventure." The litmus test is that if I and DIC had written and produced the series and used the artwork and animation and called the lead characters Tough-Man and Boney-boy, what do you think Mattel would have done? They would have sued our collective butts and they would have won. Because., as anyone can tell, these characters and their relationship are formed from the MOTU characters and relationships.

    I created N/A specifically to be a continuing part of the He-man story. And that, alone, should be enough to put the matter to rest. The degree to which I succeeded or failed is an entirely different matter and one for everyone out there to decide -- and I've said it a thousand times: everyone has a right to their opinion, I respect that and I don't expect everyone to love N/A.

    But what everyone does not have a right to an opinion about is this continuing debate about whether or not N/A is tied to and a continuation of MOTU. It is. I intended it to be tied to MOTU, I saw it as en extension of MOTU and it was not a separate adventure.

    Now let me give you my supporting reasons for why I feel it truly is an extension of MOTU. And I'll respectfully ask everyone who doesn't care for N/A to just momentarily put their feelings about the essence of the series aside and just focus on the question about whether or not it is an extension of the He-Man saga. Put your value judgements and subjective feelings aside for just a few seconds, so we can deal with this issue.

    First, and most simply, it's an extension because that's what I had intended it to be. Second, it's an extension because it uses characters and relationships that existed in the original series. And right now I can hear a lot of people out there shrieking "But he's not He-man! He's not Skeletor!!!" This is the argument we hear over and over again when people try to say N/A is not an extension of MOTU. But that argument is built on a false premise. It's a premise that says characters ought to never change. And I understand the reasons for this because television has a long history of characters remaining the same over five, ten and twenty years. But in LIFE, people change and people like to feel comfortable with characters they love. When you change them, when you try to make them grow, people get out of their comfort level and sometimes they even go berserk. If you don't believe me, rent Misery sometime. (Admittedly it's just a movie, but I'm sure glad she wasn't a rabidly loyal MOTU fan. )

    Think about what you were like five years ago. Are you the same today? Lord, I hope not. So I wanted to have He-man and Skeletor change -- kill me! I wanted them to experience growth -- it's why I had He-Man experience a small diminishment in his physical powers on Primus...so he could rely more on his wits and also so he'd finally be forced to figuratively take his gloves off and bare-knuckle it a little, no longer only letting the villains use street fighting tactics.

    And Skelly... Well, like I've said, he was already the most evil guy in the universe. I couldn't make him more evil, so I decided to give him a sense of humor. And what the heck is so wrong with that? God has a sense of humor. Just look at how big He made avocado seeds.

    So He-Man and Skeletor grew and they changed. But the battle continues and that battle started in previous incarnations of the franchise and that's a reason why N/A is a continuing part of the saga.

    Third, as I've said over and over in other posts, I had intended to take He-Man and Skelly back to Eternia in Season Two, so that would have sealed the deal that its a part of the canon. Of course Season Two never happened and I was faced with the unavoidable fact that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

    But the bottom line here is that those with opposing views may claim He-Man and Skeletor weren't the same as they were in MOTU all they want (and they're right). The fact is, they are still He-Man and Skeletor. They may not be the He-man and Skeletor you want, but they are He-man and Skeletor, so learn to live with it.

    N/A is a part of the He-Man franchise. I based large parts of their personalities on the original franchise. He-Man is noble, Skeletor is a dog and they battle each other over and over and over again.

    Yes! Heavens, for once and all: It is a continuing part of the He-Man canon.

    i get what your are saying, it's just he-man and skeletor with further character developement.
    we just follow them on their continuing adventures after filmations MOTU, they do not necesaraly need to be on eternia.

    you did a great job, i am really enjoying the series.

    but i had one question.did you ever consider in having the horde in N/A? they would fit in perfectly with N/A. a Horde vs the Mutant war in a battle for eternia or primus with he-man and the rest fo the heroes caught in the middle.
    Last edited by Fallen_Master; May 17, 2007 at 04:41pm.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallen_Master View Post
    i get what your are saying, it's just he-man and skeletor with further character developement.
    we just follow them on their continuing adventures after filmations MOTU, they do not necesaraly need to be on eternia.

    you did a great job, i am really enjoying the series.

    but i had one question.did you ever consider in having the horde in N/A? they would fit in perfectly with N/A. a Horde vs the Mutant war in a battle for eternia or primus with he-man and the rest fo the heroes caught in the middle.
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  6. #6
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    My thought on the issue of what comes before The New Adventures of He-Man has come to be this; whatever it is that comes before the series, whether it has origins in comics, TV series, film or other media, there has to be SOMETHING that comes before it because within the first episode there is He-Man/Prince Adam, Skeletor, the Sorceress, Castle Grayskull, King Randor, Queen Marlena and doubtless others (Teela for instance, who is featured later) from the pre-existing history. There is already that back-story and stuff that we're aware of.

    Truth be known, I would want to write and produce a series entitled The Adventures of He-Man or The Original Adventures of He-Man taking the titular character from his "birth" and origins to the point where he is called away to Primus. You could have all those old characters such as Beast Man, Mer-Man, Orko, Battle Cat and Man-At-Arms, even She-Ra and Hordak, as well as the likes of Andros and Remlin from The New Adventures of He-Man and any other characters with some interesting history who could contribute to the prequel. Book-end it with Jack's concept for the second season and you'd have quite the little epic going on.

  7. #7
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    I vote yes. Admittedly, He-Man and Skeletor (and Teela and the Sorceress and etc.) look and sound quite different, and the series is largely divorced from its Eternian roots, but still -- it's He-Man and Skeletor. It clearly continues from the Filmation canon, beginning as it does in a reinterpreted version thereof.

    Yes, it's miles away from what came before, and it's not often you see an alleged direct continuation of an existing property that diverges so radically from its earlier life. But I think, for example, if people can accept both Sean Connery and Pierce Brosnan as canonical James Bonds, surely it's not too much to accept both John Erwin and Gary Chalk as He-Man?

    Cam Clarke is a different matter.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by timhodge View Post
    I vote yes. Admittedly, He-Man and Skeletor (and Teela and the Sorceress and etc.) look and sound quite different, and the series is largely divorced from its Eternian roots, but still -- it's He-Man and Skeletor. It clearly continues from the Filmation canon, beginning as it does in a reinterpreted version thereof.

    Yes, it's miles away from what came before, and it's not often you see an alleged direct continuation of an existing property that diverges so radically from its earlier life. But I think, for example, if people can accept both Sean Connery and Pierce Brosnan as canonical James Bonds, surely it's not too much to accept both John Erwin and Gary Chalk as He-Man?

    Cam Clarke is a different matter.
    Your points are interesting, but remember that Brosnan and Connery were still basically doing the same Bond -- unlike He-man and Skeletor, who were very different from their earlier incarnations. I think a closer parallel is -- to bring Connery in again -- Robin & Marion, in which we see a much older and at least phyiscally different Robin Hood. Now admittedly the Robin Hood in Robin & Marion is pretty much the same in personality, but he is changed because of his age and a different take on life than that he had when he was romping around Sherwood Forest as a young scamp.

    In the comic world, I think Batman is a good example. When I was a kid, Batman was pretty much your run-of-the-mill hero -- doing good, fighting villains, kicking butt and playing by a high code. The later years of Batman saw a turn to much darker -- and for my money, much more interesting -- overtones.

    Like I said, people change, so I didn't want He-man and Skelly to be stuck in the exact same personality forever. They would have lived that way eternally if they stayed on Eternia. But going to Primus I wanted to make a primal change.

  9. #9
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    I think the cannon question comes up because with he-man you have all of these formats, the oringinal mini comics, the mattel toys, the filmation toon, the story books, NA he-man, 200x and then the new comics. Some characters have new names even.

    Just taking the mini comics and filmation there are a lot of indescrepancies. In direct relationship to NA take Teela for example... she's VERY different. Now a bottle of peroxide and a new stylist can explain that so whatever (but then in some original minicomics she was blonde too soooo.....) LOL I personally think there are a lot fewer things in NA that diviate from the He-man we new before then say the comics and the toon of old did. So for me NA is for sure cannon, i mean most of the main differences can be explained away just because he's on another planet and because its Sci-fantasy anyway.

    I guess my point is it isn't a REDICULOUS question to ask...I mean mattel hasn't been very succesful in keeping cannon straight through their different endevours. But I do think NA was more or less successful. When it comes to character design things I never really concider that "cannon" anyway. Its when you start changing dates, or history that cannon becomes changed.. NA didn't change history, it wrote the future... thats fair game in my eyes. :-)

  10. #10
    Winning Skeletor Wacky Martin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patreek View Post
    When it comes to character design things I never really concider that "cannon" anyway. Its when you start changing dates, or history that cannon becomes changed.. NA didn't change history, it wrote the future... thats fair game in my eyes. :-)
    Yeah I was going to say the same thing, when writing that first episode, Jack Olesker kept the filmation continuity perfectly in tact. Randor and Marlena rule Eternia from the Royal palace, Skeletor has Snake Mountain etc, and the main thing I usually cite is that the design of the interior of the royal palace is exactly the same as Filmations, right down to the floor patterns.

    The main thing I think confuses people are the appearances of He-Man and Skeletor. TheShadow used a good example in another thread when he said:
    "Val Kilmer doesnt look like Michael Keaton, but Batman Forever is still in continuity with the previous Batman films"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dagar View Post
    Truth be known, I would want to write and produce a series entitled The Adventures of He-Man or The Original Adventures of He-Man taking the titular character from his "birth" and origins to the point where he is called away to Primus.
    I'd watch it Dave

  11. #11
    Heroic Warrior Matthew L. Martin's Avatar
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    Am I allowed to answer 'yes and no'?

    MotU's canon has always been an amorphous thing--it's made up of several discrete chunks (Mini-comics, DC comics, Star comics, cartoon, movie--and that's without including PoP, NA, and material produced/marketed outside the US) that can be interwoven and reconnected in variant ways. Given Mr. Olesker's comments, I'm inclined to treat the New Adventures as a valid continuation from the cartoon--but not necessarily the only one. I also think that the New Adventures toys (primarily Skeletor) and cartoon fit nicely in a post-movie setup, and that the movie can be made to dovetail with the cartoon with some tweaking. I actually did this for the old "Scrolls of Grayskull" newsletter--a series of articles connecting everything.

    I've also used the New Adventures as an alternate future which wraps back into a present that's changed so that they can no longer happen.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew L. Martin View Post
    Am I allowed to answer 'yes and no'?

    MotU's canon has always been an amorphous thing--it's made up of several discrete chunks (Mini-comics, DC comics, Star comics, cartoon, movie--and that's without including PoP, NA, and material produced/marketed outside the US) that can be interwoven and reconnected in variant ways. Given Mr. Olesker's comments, I'm inclined to treat the New Adventures as a valid continuation from the cartoon--but not necessarily the only one. I also think that the New Adventures toys (primarily Skeletor) and cartoon fit nicely in a post-movie setup, and that the movie can be made to dovetail with the cartoon with some tweaking. I actually did this for the old "Scrolls of Grayskull" newsletter--a series of articles connecting everything.

    I've also used the New Adventures as an alternate future which wraps back into a present that's changed so that they can no longer happen.
    I particularly like your opinion that it is "a" continuation. It opens up intriguing pathways -- that there are alternative paths...sliding doors to different adventures. Good food for thought and well-postulated.

  13. #13
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    i like my motu with a touch of all the he-man worlds. i have my own timelines which spawn off from different points in motu history. if something doesnt make senese i find a way to make it make sense NA is open to fitting in just about anywhere. its a time jump and allows for them to return to the exact moment of departure its open to do what ever your mind can concieve. being pawns in a spiritual plain for the greater lessons of existenece again allows for placment anywhere in motu. they could return and have it be known they could return as if it never happened.

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  14. #14
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    I remember commenting on this issue awhile ago (last year some time), so I'll just repost it here:

    In terms of NA's continuation of Filmation, I've always seen it as being that, at the very least, that on it's own terms, NA is a continuation of the Filmation series, but in terms of the Filmation cartoon, it's really up in the air as to whether you want NA to be the continuation or not.

    That sounds very confusing when put like that, but what it boils down to is: NA follows a 'He-Man Generation 1' - this is true regardless of the iteration of NA, as it's storyline is dependent on He-Man having a history and being summoned out of his normal environment. From reading the comments made by Jack Olesker, it's evident that his intention certainly was the cartoon to be a continuation of the Filmation one.

    The relationship between NA and Filmation He-Man is like the relationship between Beast Wars/Machines to Generation 1.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by coinilius View Post
    I remember commenting on this issue awhile ago (last year some time), so I'll just repost it here:
    Your comments, along with Galaxy Warrior's are quite compelling and on the money, I feel. For me, one of the real pleasures of being a part of this forum -- and let me tell you guys and gals (he said, with a to Rainbow Brite), I don't stroke anyone unless I mean it -- is that I find He-man fans, by which I mean all He-man fans, to be tremendously perceptive, articulate and intelligent. And I mean that as much for the fans who truly, and for their own reasons, dislike N/A. Even when I've encountered posts from fans who don't care for N/A, I've found them overwhelmingly to come along with carefully thought out positions that are respectfully stated and very little vitriol.

    So thanks to everyone for great and thought-provoking posts on this thread and on many, many others.

  16. #16
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    Last Episode Talk Here!!!! Spoiler!!!!!!

    I belive it is a continuing story. At first I hated it. The characters didn't look like they did in the Flimation toon. I mean He-man with a pony tail. But after recent years I aquired all the episodes and gave it a shot. It is a story that could have happened anytime in the timeline of the flimation toon or after it. It's just another battle between good and evil, in another planrt and time. The characters are almost the same. But Skeley is a alot better. At least he fights in this series. i mean Heman is a sucker to help people so he was going with or with out Skeley following him. Skeley just made it better. Imagine Heman fighting Slushhead in every episode that would not be interesting.

    It's a solid storyline with the underlying storyline of what is MOTU and He-man. Good vs. Evil in a struggle that never seems to find an end except when Crita and Skeley zoom off into space in the last episode.
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  17. #17
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    Chris here...

    To be honest, it's a slightly leading question, because one of the intriguing things about MOTU is that it has many different "canons", several of which actually conflict with each other, for example the Filmation cartoon and the mini-comics. To use another property as an example of this, the 1990s Batman: The Animated Series and the current The Batman cartoon are both unrelated takes on the same property, yet both in my mind would qualify as "canon" because they're licensed and approved by DC (as opposed to being fanfics, etc.). For MOTU, I consider official "canon" anything that was approved by Mattel, even if it conflicts - so, for example, even though Roboto has at least two origin stories that I'm aware of (one in the mini's, one in the Filmation cartoon), I consider both to be official "canon", just from separate "canons".

    Does that make sense? It's kind of a hard thing to explain, although I know what I mean...!

    I really hope I don't offend anybody by saying this - but, a source of frustration for me over the years has been reading comments from people who say that they don't regard something as "canon" basically because they don't like it. My argument is, if it was created and Mattel approved it, it's canon, because it's there!

    Now, the one (slightly controversial) comment I'm going to make is on the subject of MOTU having different canons - so, the mini-comics were their own canon, the Filmation cartoon was its own canon, etc., etc. If the question is "Is NA He-Man official canon of Filmation MOTU?" (with the emphasis on Filmation specifically), then I'm afraid I have to answer no. The reason why I say that is because I know that Lou Scheimer was not a big fan of the NA concept, and actually had his own (unrealised) ideas about how a MOTU sequel series should go (namely He-Ro: Son of He-Man). Filmation never had any connection to NA, and the series was not part of Filmation's individual "vision" for the property, so therefore I don't think you can call it part of Filmation canon.

    Everyone here knows I'm one of the biggest, most longstanding and most vocal NA fans on these Boards, and in my own mind I definitely think of NA as a continuation of the MOTU saga - and, I've always passionately believed that the NA storyline adds so much to the characters of He-Man & Skeletor and to the whole epic feel of MOTU. And, I definitely consider it "canon" because it was licensed and driven by Mattel. But, I feel I have to be honest and say that IMO, NA is not official canon of the Filmation cartoon, even though I would love it to be!

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  18. #18
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    And, I definitely consider it "canon" because it was licensed and driven by Mattel. But, I feel I have to be honest and say that IMO, NA is not official canon of the Filmation cartoon, even though I would love it to be!
    On a similar note, He-Fan, what about if you look at it in a slightluy different way: that the Filmation cartoon is part of the NA cartoon canon, but the reverse doesn't have to hold true (that the NA cartoon is part of the Filmation cartoon canon).

    Like you said, the NA cartoon was not part of Filmation's 'vision' of the property, and Lou Scheimer had his own ideas for a continuation... but at the same time, Jake Olesker has said his own intentions for the NA cartoon was for it to follow on from the Filmation canon. So the Filmation cartoon was indeed part of the 'vision' he had for the NA property.

    Does that explanation make any sort of sense?

  19. #19
    Master of New Adventures!
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    Quote Originally Posted by coinilius View Post
    On a similar note, He-Fan, what about if you look at it in a slightluy different way: that the Filmation cartoon is part of the NA cartoon canon, but the reverse doesn't have to hold true (that the NA cartoon is part of the Filmation cartoon canon).

    Like you said, the NA cartoon was not part of Filmation's 'vision' of the property, and Lou Scheimer had his own ideas for a continuation... but at the same time, Jake Olesker has said his own intentions for the NA cartoon was for it to follow on from the Filmation canon. So the Filmation cartoon was indeed part of the 'vision' he had for the NA property.

    Does that explanation make any sort of sense?
    It does, albeit in an intriguingly circuitous manner.

    Look, I'm sad that Lou didn't care for N/A. For what it's worth, as far as I'm personally concerned I think Lou is a god in the world of animation. But you can't please everyone. Johnny Carson would have far preferred to have had David Letterman take over The Tonight Show. But Johnny let the show go and it wasn't his anymore to do with as he wished. Similarly, once Filmation let go of the project, they didn't have the final say about where the storyline went. (For that matter, they never really had the final say, since Mattel owned the property...but a 'god' has an awful lot of input and influence. )

    So He-man moved on. Is it canon? Well, of course it is. It's He-man. And the bottom line is that I could never have created N/A if Filmation's He-man didn't exist. Is it different from Filmation's He-man? You bet. And Leno's Tonight Show is different from Johnny Carson's. But it's not The Middle of the Night Show. It's still The Tonight Show. The fact is, Filmation's He-man was actually a part of Mattel's canon. So let's not split hairs here: Mattel's toyline, combined with Lou's brilliance begat one of the greatest action hero icon's in history. He lived on -- whether you like the way he lived on or not -- in N/A. He's got the same parents, the same love for Eternia and the same enemy in skelly. He's not She-man or Bee-Man or Bee-Gee-Man. He was friggin' He-man! Get it?!!!

    And at the end of the day, let's not get so intense about it all. Let's not get angry here. Let's be kind to each other and keep our priorities in line. There's a lot of kids who never even heard of He-man who will wake up dead in Darfur tomorrow morning.

  20. #20
    Eternian Jedi Knight He-Fan's Avatar
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    Chris here...

    Quote Originally Posted by coinilius View Post
    On a similar note, He-Fan, what about if you look at it in a slightluy different way: that the Filmation cartoon is part of the NA cartoon canon, but the reverse doesn't have to hold true (that the NA cartoon is part of the Filmation cartoon canon).

    Like you said, the NA cartoon was not part of Filmation's 'vision' of the property, and Lou Scheimer had his own ideas for a continuation... but at the same time, Jake Olesker has said his own intentions for the NA cartoon was for it to follow on from the Filmation canon. So the Filmation cartoon was indeed part of the 'vision' he had for the NA property.

    Does that explanation make any sort of sense?
    Perfect sense, and if you flip the argument round that way ("was Filmation MOTU official canon of the NA?"), then that one's Jack's call - so, if he says yes, then there's your answer to that one!

    Take care...
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  21. #21
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    It does, albeit in an intriguingly circuitous manner.
    Perfect sense, and if you flip the argument round that way ("was Filmation MOTU official canon of the NA?"), then that one's Jack's call - so, if he says yes, then there's your answer to that one!
    Phew, I was afraid that reply would have just sounded like gibberish or something

  22. #22
    Adam's Defender foxy11814's Avatar
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    I don't know. This is a really tricky question and I hope no one, especially Jack, gets offended in any way.

    I've said in a few other threads that I was never even aware N/A existed before I started visiting this board. Hearing other people talk about it on other forums, I wasn't sure I would like it, but I gave it a chance. It turns out I enjoyed it very much. Do I like it better than Filmation? No, but to each his or her own!

    Do I consider N/A to be part of the canon? As others have pointed out, yes, I do since Mattel approved the toon, and like Jack said, it is He-Man and Skeletor. And, for the show to even exist, it had to have history from where it picked up. Everyone who tunes into the toon knows He-Man from some background, whether its the comics or Filmation. More than likely, it was probably Filmation, and the first episode, where it shows Eternia, the palace, and Adam's parents, gives a respectful nod to its "parent." Just this one episode shows that it is a continuation of Filmation's version of He-Man, if you wish it to be, as Jack did.

    Of course, that doesn't mean others have to accept it as such, either. Objectively, I see why people have a hard time accepting it as part of the canon. He-Man not having as much power (which I understand people grow and change) is a major drawback for people. Some give the argument that He-Man uses more wit on Primus, but I'm not entirely sure that's true. He-Man was very witty on Eternia and gave science lessons from time to time. *shrugs* But that's another subject, lol.

    Also, if N/A was supposed to be a continuation of Filmation, why did it change the characters so much visually? Why not have Adam in his normal attire in the first episode, only to change them when he gets to Primus so he can fit in with that planet's inhabitants? Maybe people would have accepted it more if that had taken place. The outfit he has on Eternia and Primus seems very outdated, even for Eternia. It looks almost Greek-like, much more than Randor's. It sticks out like a sore thumb to me, but it's not necessarily bad. That's just my opinion. Also, why would Skeletor suddenly have eyes in N/A if it was based off of Filmation's? Or, why was Teela's hair blonde instead of red? You can't use the argument that people grow and change, because even with time, Filmation's Skeletor would not grow eyes suddenly, nor would Teela's hair turn blonde. Of course, some argue Teela's hair was blonde in other versions of He-Man, but the question is whether this show is based off Filmation's, which means her hair should have been red.

    I'm not saying I hate these changes, but let's be truthful. It isn't easy to swallow that N/A is a continuation of Filmation's MOTU when so many of the physical attributes on the show are up for scrutiny.

    I don't think He-Man or Skeletor's personalities stop people from believing it is a continuation. After all, people change. It's very believable that Skeletor could become more cocky and humorous with time, and that He-Man would fight a little more ruthlessly than he did on Eternia, after fighting with Skeletor so long. I don't have a problem with that. I just think that the physical changes of the characters combined with the lack of Battlecat, Cringer, Man-at-Arms, Teela, etc. stops people from even considering for one second that it's part of Filmation's canon whether Jack intended it to be that way or not.

    By the way, I would very much one day love to write a fic and somehow talk about and give reference to He-Man/Adam being on Primus, because it can and should be done, because it is part of the canon.

    And, I just have to say I am not attacking N/A in any way (not even the change in its characters' appearances). I'm just pointing out why some people might have trouble making a connection between the two. I will admit even I stop and think about these changes when someone brings up a question such as this. Maybe it's been discussed before since I'm technically new to N/A. I enjoy both cartoons, and I'm so proud to own every episode to both.
    Last edited by foxy11814; May 22, 2007 at 11:20pm.

  23. #23
    Master of New Adventures!
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxy11814 View Post
    I don't know. This is a really tricky question and I hope no one, especially Jack, gets offended in any way.

    I've said in a few other threads that I was never even aware N/A existed before I started visiting this board. Hearing other people talk about it on other forums, I wasn't sure I would like it, but I gave it a chance. It turns out I enjoyed it very much. Do I like it better than Filmation? No, but to each his or her own!

    Do I consider N/A to be part of the canon? As others have pointed out, yes, I do since Mattel approved the toon, and like Jack said, it is He-Man and Skeletor. And, for the show to even exist, it had to have history from where it picked up. Everyone who tunes into the toon knows He-Man from some background, whether its the comics or Filmation. More than likely, it was probably Filmation, and the first episode, where it shows Eternia, the palace, and Adam's parents, gives a respectful nod to its "parent." Just this one episode shows that it is a continuation of Filmation's version of He-Man, if you wish it to be, as Jack did.

    Of course, that doesn't mean others have to accept it as such, either. Objectively, I see why people have a hard time accepting it as part of the canon. He-Man not having as much power (which I understand people grow and change) is a major drawback for people. Some give the argument that He-Man uses more wit on Primus, but I'm not entirely sure that's true. He-Man was very witty on Eternia and gave science lessons from time to time. *shrugs* But that's another subject, lol.

    Also, if N/A was supposed to be a continuation of Filmation, why did it change the characters so much visually? Why not have Adam in his normal attire in the first episode, only to change them when he gets to Primus so he can fit in with that planet's inhabitants? Maybe people would have accepted it more if that had taken place. The outfit he has on Eternia and Primus seems very outdated, even for Eternia. It looks almost Greek-like, much more than Randor's. It sticks out like a sore thumb to me, but it's not necessarily bad. That's just my opinion. Also, why would Skeletor suddenly have eyes in N/A if it was based off of Filmation's? Or, why was Teela's hair blonde instead of red? You can't use the argument that people grow and change, because even with time, Filmation's Skeletor would not grow eyes suddenly, nor would Teela's hair turn blonde. Of course, some argue Teela's hair was blonde in other versions of He-Man, but the question is whether this show is based off Filmation's, which means her hair should have been red.

    I'm not saying I hate these changes, but let's be truthful. It isn't easy to swallow that N/A is a continuation of Filmation's MOTU when so many of the physical attributes on the show are up for scrutiny.

    I don't think He-Man or Skeletor's personalities stop people from believing it is a continuation. After all, people change. It's very believable that Skeletor could become more cocky and humorous with time, and that He-Man would fight a little more ruthlessly than he did on Eternia, after fighting with Skeletor so long. I don't have a problem with that. I just think that the physical changes of the characters combined with the lack of Battlecat, Cringer, Man-at-Arms, Teela, etc. stops people from even considering for one second that it's part of Filmation's canon whether Jack intended it to be that way or not.

    By the way, I would very much one day love to write a fic and somehow talk about and give reference to He-Man/Adam being on Primus, because it can and should be done, because it is part of the canon.

    And, I just have to say I am not attacking N/A in any way (not even the change in its characters' appearances). I'm just pointing out why some people might have trouble making a connection between the two. I will admit even I stop and think about these changes when someone brings up a question such as this. Maybe it's been discussed before since I'm technically new to N/A. I enjoy both cartoons, and I'm so proud to own every episode to both.
    First, I never get offended at people offering their opinions. People who become offended at others offering opinions are properly refered to as Fascists.

    In any event, your points are well made -- and I confess I do like it better when people offer well made opinions. As for Teela, well, Lucille Ball once had blonde hair and ended up with red. He-man's toga? So it's retro. What it comes down to, then, is Skeletor's eyes. And I hate those eyes. As I've said before, I had nothing to do with the animation -- other than reviewing storyboards -- or voice talent. I think KKC&D simply wanted to have their own imprint and I think they were waaaaaaay off base on Skelly's eyes.

    However, for the reasons I've stated, I really do think it's part of the canon because it is He-man and skeletor and it was produced for Mattel, who have overship of the property -- pure and simple.

    Thanks for your opinions.

    On another note, I really have to apologize to the fans for my post before this. If I seemed a bit emotional and curt, it's because I had a bad day yesterday...and bad days do happen. I don't get into personal things often, but my five year old daughter had a concussion as a result of my going against my better judgement and entrusting her to a sitter I was not enamored of. I'm happy to say she's doing better today. But it was a tough day for me and I probably shouldn't have gotten onto the forum in hopes of distracting myself during a very, very long night.

  24. #24
    Adam's Defender foxy11814's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    First, I never get offended at people offering their opinions. People who become offended at others offering opinions are properly refered to as Fascists.

    In any event, your points are well made -- and I confess I do like it better when people offer well made opinions. As for Teela, well, Lucille Ball once had blonde hair and ended up with red. He-man's toga? So it's retro. What it comes down to, then, is Skeletor's eyes. And I hate those eyes. As I've said before, I had nothing to do with the animation -- other than reviewing storyboards -- or voice talent. I think KKC&D simply wanted to have their own imprint and I think they were waaaaaaay off base on Skelly's eyes.

    However, for the reasons I've stated, I really do think it's part of the canon because it is He-man and skeletor and it was produced for Mattel, who have overship of the property -- pure and simple.

    Thanks for your opinions.

    On another note, I really have to apologize to the fans for my post before this. If I seemed a bit emotional and curt, it's because I had a bad day yesterday...and bad days do happen. I don't get into personal things often, but my five year old daughter had a concussion as a result of my going against my better judgement and entrusting her to a sitter I was not enamored of. I'm happy to say she's doing better today. But it was a tough day for me and I probably shouldn't have gotten onto the forum in hopes of distracting myself during a very, very long night.
    Yeah, I hear ya. Normally, canon is based off of what is written and not drawn, anyway. It isn't your fault really that they wanted to change Skelly's eyes. And, I really do consider it part of the He-Man canon, anyway. I really do. I just think if anyone wanted to argue N/A was a continuation of Filmation's, one of the first things they would point out is the differences in the characters' drawings and color. It only makes sense if you want a show to be a continuation of another, you keep certain things the same, so people can recognize the character and actually connect it to the former. Would Filmation fans have known He-Man was He-Man if they hadn't been told so in title? Would Filmation fans have believed Teela was Teela in "Once Upon a Time" if not told so? It's like no matter how many alternate versions of Superman there is, which are all considered canon, Superman has the same suit, the same hair color, etc., and Lois Lane always has brown hair and a sassy attitude.

    Of course, I'm not saying the animators of N/A did anything wrong with their interpretation of any of the characters. My only point is if one of the goals was to allow fans to connect it to Filmation's tune, it would have been a lot easier to accomplish this if these few minor details I've pointed out would have stayed the same. Of course, that's history, and what's done is done. I'm fine with the way the cartoon is, and I'm glad I decided to give it the chance it deserves!

    Anyway, don't worry about how you sounded in earlier posts. It's your "baby," so you have every right to express your honest feelings and passion on any subject a member brings up. You don't expect anything less from us, and we don't from you. We only ask that no bashing starts, and from far as I can see, you've always upheld your end of the deal, even though others (some non-NA fans) have not.

  25. #25
    Lord of the Patch baronterror's Avatar
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    I voted yes in as much as clearly that was the intent.

    But also I must add that I only accept it in the same way that I accept anything and everything in MOTU. I accept it at face value for what it is. MOTU.

    More importantly for me now however is I accept in through the lense of the new MOTUC. I feel this current line has done what I always wanted and needed. Took all these diparate elements and formed them into one coheisive whole. I find no problem with changes or alterations to what came before to streamline the integration.

    But for me not only is NA clearly cannon, the MOTUC is superior cannon including the NA elements. A refinement of the whole story.

    So while NA stands alone as entertaining and "real", details in my mind of "Current Cannon" are superceded by MOTUC.

    Changing details later doesnt invalidate the story as depicted previously in my mind. Clearly the Adam Eternia bits were "wrong". We had the previous cartoon showing how it should look, but in NA it is different. So who was right? In my mind I gloss over the "superficial" details like that. Clearly Adam & Eternia (King, Queen, ect) should have looked like what we remember. But I also understand this is a different show with it's own look, so I can just ignore the "mistake".

    Just like how in MOTUC when detials are retconned or altered, or designs refined, ect, that doesnt mean they were "wrong" before, just here is the updated depiction of the story, designs, and events previously detialed in other media

    No problem.

    I'd suggest a similar thing with media/vs depiction reality. When there is a mistake on Star Trek in production, continuity or story holes, ect, I dont expect real answers as to why. The why is because it was a production error, not "Real" within the depicted universe. So inconsistancies dont bother me too much. the suspension of disbeliefe does that for me with the story as a whole anyway.

    So if some creative person wants to go back and address in continuity why those things occured, cool, that can be gratifying and entertaining. But otherwise I can look past it and enjoy the story as presented.

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