Is Shadow Weaver Possible?

[Blue Monkey]

She would be a cool figure to have, but if it doesn't happen I am not going to be crushed.

[eurorko]

Gygor is cool and all but I'd rather have an Octavia figure instead. Hordak needs some company badly. I thought that Gygor was a weird choice for them.

[Aramis]

Gygor is cool and all but I'd rather have an Octavia figure instead. Hordak needs some company badly. I thought that Gygor was a weird choice for them.

Yeah... me too.

[Emiliano]

Didn't gygor get mentioned in the book Mastering the universe ??

Yes he did, and I remember hearing about him even before that.
But no one had that photo and surely Mattel didn't know about it.
After we showed that I clearly remember Toyguru coming to me in San Diego and asking me "Where did you find that image?"

[gbagok]

Gygor is cool and all but I'd rather have an Octavia figure instead. Hordak needs some company badly. I thought that Gygor was a weird choice for them.

I don't think we need to look at it with the either/or goggles. Gygor didn't happen at the expense of Octavia. It's not clear why they don't feel Octavia counts the same way Gygor does. It's possible Gygor benefitted from never being interpreted by Filmation, thus giving Mattel something they'd have to prove (that it didn't originate with Filmation). I would just want them to try and use the same logic used to approve Gygor on some other obscure characters. Octavia. Illumina. Seems like a lot of female characters are always on my list of "Must have" figures. Sigh.

I'm still very hopeful they are working on acquiring the Filmation cast. Not expecting it, or even hoping for it within another few years, but it's something worth having when we get to where the majority left to be made are third and fourth tier characters (of course some would call most Filmation characters "third and fourth tier" now, so maybe we need a new cartoon or comic to turn some obscure somebodies into stars first).

Queen Marlena just got filed for trademark at February 17th

For use in Prince Adam's Bio. No, I'm kidding. I hope.

[Adam_Prince of Eternia]

I guess for Mattel Lawyers that isn't enough, you'r right.
Too bad that Filmation's models are marked Mattel Toy. It's just logic they are from that design, but I know just pure logic may not be enough for them.

Still, I wonder how they did for Gygor.
The only existign document is that photo owned by Josh Van Pelt, Mattel had no idea he even existed until I showed them the pic.
And still, even without having something on file, they did a figure.
It's just confusing.

The difference is that one is a published character, and the other is not. As the entity that introduced the character to the public, FILMation is the presumed author of Octavia in court, and Mattel has the burden of proof to substantiate that it is the author of the design.

[synthalus]

Queen Marlena just got filed for trademark at February 17th

For use in Prince Adam's Bio. No, I'm kidding. I hope.

Prince Adam doesn't have a trademark... yet
Maybe he is getting a trademark soon,
but I wonder if it's possible if the name Adam cannot be licensed because of Adam & Eve

[Kevenn]

I can tell you the difference between Gy-Gor and Octavia - one is female, and the other is not. The females in this line get the shaft all the time - as females in the cartoon/comic business tend to do.

[urbanmyth]

So was there a prototype for Octavia?

[hordedestiny]

Maybe I worded it wrong, but I think you misunderstood my post a bit. I'm not going against the idea of fans figuring out stuff Mattel doesn't know.
Heck, it was me and AlessandraF bringing the POP style guide to Mattel's attention, it was me again finding out about Dylamug, Octavia, etc. And I explained about Darius to toyguru, not counting providing info and the first idea that lead to Gygor.
I'm not saying to give up. Actually I'm all about keep looking.
But Mattel refueses to receive any input from fans, and I noticed they got more and more irritated in their response to this kind of stuff, so maybe it's better to not rock the boat too much, and only offer the info when we have rock solid proof.
The cards, the old legal lines, are things already discussed, and those don't bring anything new to the table.

All I'm saying about SW is that as much as we look she's still is a Filmation creations. I found proof of that.
We found proof that Mantenna, Leech, Hordak and Grizzlor originated at Filmation for the She-Ra show!So, I wouldn't call caser closed, but c'mon, how many chances are there we'll find other something that contraddict this origin about her?
A bunch of cards won't do anything, when we get to orginal Filmation development art.

Question if this is the case then how in the world did we get Count Marzo and Hordak then? Im only recently catching up with these developments of the Filmation rights and such and I havent seen my exact question that I just asked mentioned anywhere. I mean when I saw Marzo unveiled recently I was curious as to why he could be made if the others couldnt and now we find out that Hordak is also a Filmations owned character as is Leech and the others but yet they were all made in the vintage line.

[Darth Latveria]

Question if this is the case then how in the world did we get Count Marzo and Hordak then? Im only recently catching up with these developments of the Filmation rights and such and I havent seen my exact question that I just asked mentioned anywhere. I mean when I saw Marzo unveiled recently I was curious as to why he could be made if the others couldnt and now we find out that Hordak is also a Filmations owned character as is Leech and the others but yet they were all made in the vintage line.

If I am not mistaken the question of a character's origins became moot with regards to copyrights when that character was originally made into figure form. Thus Hordak, Leech and the rest of the Horde are now owned by Mattel since back when they were working with Filmation they had some sort of deal that allowed them to be made into figures and then subsequently chose to do so. As a matter of fact I think that in the early 90's Mattel sold the rights to all the characters that were not made into figure form (so Shadow Weaver, etc) and that is why they no longer hold the rights to them now (I think Emiliano may have posted this).

As for Marzo, I have absolutely no idea and am curious as well. For that matter I also wonder why Evil Seed was allowed into MYP. I think this has been answered elsewhere (presumably a licensing agreement with whoever held the rights to the Filmation characters at the time) but I cannot recall what the answer was nor the details that it entailed.

[gbagok]

if this is the case then how in the world did we get Count Marzo

I think it's been said in other threads that Mattel negotiated the rights to use the names Marzo and Evilseed, and probably Hawk as well, in the MYP cartoon but the designs are different. They own those MYP versions of the characters now.

[Artistix]

I thought Mattel were just buying the rights to characters when they needed them.

They wanted to make Marzo, so they forked out the moolah.

If they want to make Shadow Weaver, they will fork out some more moolah.

Though some characters are likely more expensive than others. I'm sure Shadow Weaver is considered more important than Marzo to the folks holding the FILMation rights, so she probably costs a crap load more.

Ofcourse I'm just talking out my butt...I have no idea how this all works.

[Swanmarsh]

Interesting about Mattel being able to obtain the names of Count Marzo and Evilseed but not the artistic design / image. If this is the case then I'm glad Mattel didn't obtain Shadow Weaver and Scorpia's names in 2002 and give them new, unrecognisable bodies with nothing in common with the original.

I would much rather wait until Mattel secures rights for these characters in name and image as we remember them. I just don't want to have to wait much longer!

[gbagok]

Interesting about Mattel being able to obtain the names of Count Marzo and Evilseed but not the artistic design / image. If this is the case then I'm glad Mattel didn't obtain Shadow Weaver and Scorpia's names in 2002 and give them new, unrecognisable bodies with nothing in common with the original.

They weren't massively different though. Marzo still was bearded wizard with a red cape, and Evilseed was still a green plant themed bad guy with a big head. I think Emiliano's version of Shadow Weaver printed in Toyfare magazine would have been different enough to suffice. I don't know how hard buying the rights to Shadow Weaver's name would have been, but I think had Mattel gotten to the Horde earlier in 200X they might have tried.

[Old Bolty-Neck]

I'm not a lawyer and I may have an incomplete understanding, but it seems to me that Mattel may have been able to "obtain," as you say, the names of Marzo and Evilseed as follows:
(by the way, below is just my educated guess. I don't claim I have all the facts right, but they seem right as I understand things.)

• Copyright and trademark are not the same thing. Copyright covers designs, works of art, stories, TV episodes and movies, songs, etc. Trademark covers names, logos (such as the * logo of 2002 He-Man), etc. And trademarks lapse much quicker than copyrights do. In essence, you have to keep a trademark alive if you want to continue to hold it, but copyrighted material is subject to different laws & regulations that don't require renewals very often.
• Copyrights on the Count Marzo character from Filmation and Evilseed the character from Filmation (among others) remain the property of Classic Media, just like everything else within the Filmation library of copyrighted material, but
• Nevertheless, trademarks on the names "Count Marzo" and "Evilseed" weren't maintained by the owners of Filmation's library, and either they lapsed or they aren't considered to have been names that were ever covered under trademark to begin with (by that I mean, Filmation never made a product called "Count Marzo" to be sold under that name, for instance)
• Being up for grabs, the names "Count Marzo" and "Evilseed" got registered by Mattel, and so they can use the names. They just can't tread on the copyrighted Filmation material by making those characters TOO similar to the ones seen in Filmation.

[Adam_Prince of Eternia]

Nevertheless, trademarks on the names "Count Marzo" and "Evilseed" weren't maintained by the owners of Filmation's library, and either they lapsed or they aren't considered to have been names that were ever covered under trademark to begin with (by that I mean, Filmation never made a product called "Count Marzo" to be sold under that name, for instance)

The marks are protected by use in the original animated series.

Being up for grabs, the names "Count Marzo" and "Evilseed" got registered by Mattel, and so they can use the names. They just can't tread on the copyrighted Filmation material by making those characters TOO similar to the ones seen in Filmation.

For an entity to use the lapsed mark of another entity in a mixed intellectual property rights scenario constitutes trademark infringement.

[Old Bolty-Neck]

OK. Do you think the Marzo and Evilseed names were bought outright by Mattel, then?

And while we're on the topic, how might it have worked out that Fisto being named as such in the 2003 MYP show wasn't an infringement on someone else's "Kit Fisto" trademark, while the same seemed not to be true regarding the toy Battle Fist?

[LORD FALLEN ELDOR]

The reason why Evil-Seed, Marzo, Corridite, Eterneum and other Filmation concepts where used by the MYP series is that Mattel has a "special agreement" (they probably paid money) to the then license holder (Hallmark IIRC) to recycle concepts for the new cartoon. It was only limited in the fact that the MYP crew cherry picked what they wanted, updated and changed it to fit the new direction of the show. I don't recall it being a case of "having to" change anything, they just updated the designs much as the 4HM did the original toys. Of course this relationship ended when the cartoon did. This was not a creative/rights relationship held with the licensed MVC comics. Val & Emil had to do what Mattel said...Though I know they liked to change their minds on our guys and what was permitted! Mattel now owns the 200x Marzo, but not the Filmation Marzo in the same way they can make Granamyr & Sky Tree only as they appear in the mini comic Dragons Gift AND NOT in Filmation...

That's how I recall it, anybody remember anything different or did I miss something?

[scott metzger]

But Mattel refueses to receive any input from fans, and I noticed they got more and more irritated in their response to this kind of stuff, so maybe it's better to not rock the boat too much, and only offer the info when we have rock solid proof.

A bunch of fans find important information that Mattel's apparently over-paid legal department didn't unearth? Gee, I wonder why they'd be upset about that? Let's face it, you folks did a better job than the people Mattel pays to do this sort of research, and that makes Mattel look bad.

But even if Mattel doesn't appreciate it, I and many other fans do. I'm one of the people really pshyched to have a chance to get something unexpected like Gygor, and it's obvious that figure wouldn't even exist if it hadn't been for you bringing it to their attention. You did good, Emiliano, very good, indeed.

As for the Filmation rights and some interesting things you mentioned, I'd be surprised if Mattel isn't trying to get back those rights right now. Mind you, I doubt it's for the MOTUC line; a single collector's line likely wouldn't justify the outlay to buy back the rights they foolishly sold off for quick cash. But there is a movie still bouncing around somewhere, and having the rights to the property split in any way is something a studio isn't going to want to deal with (look at the flap over Watchmen because of the option rights). Mattel NEEDS to get all the MOTU rights under their wing, so they are sole owners of the property, if they have visions of turning MOTU into the next Transformers. Of course, that would allow the MOTUC line to dip into the now forbidden waters of Filmation, a nice bonus.

I really think the wheels are already turning on this, from What Emiliano is saying.

[Reboot]

But there is a movie still bouncing around somewhere, and having the rights to the property split in any way is something a studio isn't going to want to deal with (look at the flap over Watchmen because of the option rights). Mattel NEEDS to get all the MOTU rights under their wing, so they are sole owners of the property, if they have visions of turning MOTU into the next Transformers.

Depends - there are several characters from the Marvel Transformers comics which Hasbro don't own (which meant IDW were forced to skip a bunch of issues and part-issues in their reprints, although I believe they've come to an arrangement over the last set of issues, since they're serialised AND feature those characters too heavily to cut). Also, they're pushing forward with a Micronauts movie, even though the situation there is the same, but moreso (Three or four of the main team were owned by Marvel, and core Marvel characters guest-starred. And MN never had a cartoon).

[urbanmyth]

Some of the comments in this thread imply that there was a prototype or Mattel concept art for Octavia (like Gy-gor). Is this true?

Sorry to ask again but I thought it was worth a try.

[Cringalicious]

I can't wait to see the Weaver! I hope she will be released soon.

[Emiliano]

But even if Mattel doesn't appreciate it, I and many other fans do. I'm one of the people really pshyched to have a chance to get something unexpected like Gygor, and it's obvious that figure wouldn't even exist if it hadn't been for you bringing it to their attention. You did good, Emiliano, very good, indeed.

Thank you so much Scott, it's words like yours that make these days less hard for us.
Oh, if only I could tell you the whole story about Gygor...

Some of the comments in this thread imply that there was a prototype or Mattel concept art for Octavia (like Gy-gor). Is this true?

Sorry to ask again but I thought it was worth a try.

Yes, this is totally true: we have the original Mattel design in hands, and we have the Filmation model sheets marked as "Mattel Toy"

[Angel-T]

Scott's right, many many fans very much appreciate all the hard work the both Val & Emiliano do for the fan community. I bet if you guys were at liberty to say all the things you could many fans would be more appreciative of all the efforts you have made for our community. I don't understand Mattel's attitude towards you guys and the org in general, but what I do know is that this place is my online home and I feel that friends I have made here are like a second family. Thanks for dealing with all the red tape, gagging orders and attitude Mattel give to you guys on a regular basis, while always remaining calm and professional. We may not have the power when dealing with Mattel, but we do have the honour!