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Thread: Death, Betrayal, and the 2nd Ultimate Battleground

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    CRITAcal for MOTUC 2015!! Barezz's Avatar
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    Death, Betrayal, and the 2nd Ultimate Battleground

    So the other day when I was looking at the Fwoosh Mermista pictures and laughed at the decapitated Mer-man pictures, a question occurred.

    In the mini comic, the Heroic Warriors, Great Rebellion, and Evil Warriors are fighting on the same side. Yet, Mermista kills mer-man, Photog seems to fight and defeat Whiplash and Clawful, and Buzz-off almost kills Goat-man.

    So what happens? Do the Evil Warriors turn on them? Do the heroes make a "heel turn" and kill the bad guys? Does Mer-man sexually harrass Mermista past her limits?

    Has anything ever been said about this?

    Now, the real world explanation is that I imagine many of the bios were written years before the mini comics, and the story just sort of evolved differently as a result.
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    Heroic Warrior Jinxieman's Avatar
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    I imagined that after Skeletor defeated Hordak and took off it became a free for all...in the sense that all evil factions...or what was left of them...turned on the heroic warriors and the GR.

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    Royal Guard Jeevesosiris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barezz View Post
    So the other day when I was looking at the Fwoosh Mermista pictures and laughed at the decapitated Mer-man pictures, a question occurred.

    In the mini comic, the Heroic Warriors, Great Rebellion, and Evil Warriors are fighting on the same side. Yet, Mermista kills mer-man, Photog seems to fight and defeat Whiplash and Clawful, and Buzz-off almost kills Goat-man.

    So what happens? Do the Evil Warriors turn on them? Do the heroes make a "heel turn" and kill the bad guys? Does Mer-man sexually harrass Mermista past her limits?

    Has anything ever been said about this?

    Now, the real world explanation is that I imagine many of the bios were written years before the mini comics, and the story just sort of evolved differently as a result.
    I don't think there is any sense of timescale to the Mermista bio, so it could have been that she killed poor Squiddish years after the 2nd (Or is it third now?) Ultimate Battleground. It is still a decision that I don't like in the cannon I have to say...

    I agree though with your theory Barezz about how the story evolved along the way. I have enjoyed the ride, even if there were some bumps, typos and weird decisions along the way.
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    Spec'to'matic! Toyguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinxieman View Post
    I imagined that after Skeletor defeated Hordak and took off it became a free for all...in the sense that all evil factions...or what was left of them...turned on the heroic warriors and the GR.
    Pretty much. We only had 12 pages. Could have told this battle in a
    50 page comic and still have room! We had to really pick the key moments (that goes for all 8 of the minis).

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    Reaper of Crom Riddle of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toyguru View Post
    Pretty much. We only had 12 pages. Could have told this battle in a
    50 page comic and still have room! We had to really pick the key moments (that goes for all 8 of the minis).
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    Sorcerer of Zalesia bcrduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toyguru View Post
    Pretty much. We only had 12 pages. Could have told this battle in a
    50 page comic and still have room! We had to really pick the key moments (that goes for all 8 of the minis).
    But you've also had many many bios in which to keep things clear, and that's really what this question was about. You aren't really addressing the OP's question by using the excuse that the mini comic only had 12 pages.

    And if the mini comic was that limited, perhaps it would have been wiser to focus on less of a grand storyline?
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    Heroic Warrior Mern-Ra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcrduke View Post
    And if the mini comic was that limited, perhaps it would have been wiser to focus on less of a grand storyline?
    I've enjoyed some of the mini-comics quite a bit, but I feel similarily. If you start with a 24 page script and then have to cut it down to 12 pages, you can't just "pick the key moments" out of that script and still be able to tell the same story...at some point you have to do a page-one re-write.
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    Sorcerer of Zalesia bcrduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mern-Ra View Post
    I've enjoyed some of the mini-comics quite a bit, but I feel similarily. If you start with a 24 page script and then have to cut it down to 12 pages, you can't just "pick the key moments" out of that script and still be able to tell the same story...at some point you have to do a page-one re-write.
    Agreed.

    I quite liked some things in these new mini comics. I especially liked the most recent one on Trolla (though, some Trollans could have appeared and I would have been super happy). But the create-a-character contest runners up from years ago and from 2012, plus characters like Lady Slither, Robowoman, and Man Crystal are all figures I would happily buy (alongside Crita, Dylamug, Granita, etc).

    But the limitations of the comics and bios aren't a mystery - at some point, the lack of space became a factor. Understandable.

    Still doesn't explain the contradictions though. If you're going to compare yourself to Jack Kirby in an interview, Scott, you're going to open yourself up to fair and even handed criticism of your work.
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    Heroic Warrior No-Ah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mern-Ra View Post
    I've enjoyed some of the mini-comics quite a bit, but I feel similarily. If you start with a 24 page script and then have to cut it down to 12 pages, you can't just "pick the key moments" out of that script and still be able to tell the same story...at some point you have to do a page-one re-write.
    Yeah, I think this was my major criticism of the mini-comics I've read. If there are only 12 pages, one ought to tell a story which is meant to be 12 pages.

    I get that we're supposed to fill in the gap with our imaginations.... but it didn't work the way it was intended. It just came across as sloppy.

    Anyway, glad to see Scott is still alive and kicking.
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  10. #10
    Historian of Eternia LORD FALLEN ELDOR's Avatar
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    This is why My preference is towards vintage. Each mini comic is a whole story unto it self. Short, sweet and to the point. Some have consistency and continuity and tell a grander story like the first four. He-man and the Power Sword, and King of Castle Grayskull especially lay the foundational groundwork that the whole franchise is anchored to. They accomplished that with 44 total pages, though if you boil it down to key pages and frames, well, the Don Glut foundational structure is perhaps 15 pages AT MOST establishing the characters and relationships of the first 8 characters. DC comic assembled a team of professionals for The second series and continued to tell self contained stories in a new continuity that added The Royal Family (sans Adam) and gave us an explanatory myth for the misunderstanding of who the Sorceress was in relation to Teela The Warrior. Then in year three things got pretty much Filmation with the Adam Action figure came out and things continued in that trend. I dislike that continuity went by the way side in this intervening era, especially with the confusion of Etheria in She-Ra Mini comics contrasted against the Etheria in He-man's. luckily, the introduction of The Eternia playset (Three Towers) and King Hiss in 1986 began that trek towards the ancient Eternia and 1987's almost got it Powers of Grayskull story line. Those last year of mini comics are the best IMO they accomplished SO MUCH with a handful of mini comics. My favorite MOTU era is essentially five 13 page mini comics, but that is because they where made by MASTERs of their craft and a young Bruce Timm who was clearly Jack Kirby's biggest fan.

    I would LOVE to be able to enjoy the Bios and new mini comics, and I do enjoy some things. (time wars, Hans Hammer Holder, That they span from Preternia to NA and even dare to touch on He-man's son! and they are all drawn so well!) But I'm reminded of what Aunt May told Peter Parker in the first Spider-Man film while she was in the Hospital bed: "you try to do too much, Your not superman you know". What makes sweet, old precious aunt may's comment so entertaining is that it comes from a place of love, and that she doesn't grasp the whole situation. What also makes that funny is the comparison between a young kid who just got his powers a day ago who has a hard time lifting a car compared to a guy that that turn back time by flying around the earth backwards and juggle planets. It doesn't take hindsight to have foreseen that these stories would be inconsistent and irreconcilable. Scott isn't Jack Kirby! Scott just didn't have the experience to successfully pull off what he wanted to do. Been there. I can relate to that. Though I've never been lucky enough to have a dedicated fan base to get excited about my failures...much less celebrate them.

    That Mermista would turn around a kill Mer-Man under any circumstance is inconceivable to me. What is her motivation for doing so? They where allies who just defeated their enemy. Mermista isn't even Eternian, she was just helping to fight that final battle. Why would Mer-man turn on her? He can't control his own Kingdom in is own planet and he wants her's too? Because they are both fishy people? What? What S the story hear? If the purpose was just to make an outline, hoping that a future writer would ask these questions and tell that story. What is the point of me to "keep reading the bios" then? I'll just ignore the outline and read that story if Mattel decides to dictate DC to write it. Outlines like that are not something that is generally publish is it? Remember when we where not permitted to share the Style Guides on the .org? http://www.he-man.org/collecting/documentsLib.php That is because house where for licensing people (writers and artist) not for fans to view and discuss...Going back to The Bios, Scott then, not having a plot or coherent story structure means this is literally Scott just brainstorming and printing it to see how we react towards that. Besides, don't people usually get something in return for participating in market research? I don't like that level of manipulation truth me told. If the situation was the same, and everybody involved was just more forthright, i think there would be less animosity surrounding these topics.

    You know what would have been cool? A mini comic about
    The Mighty Specter, Cy-Chop, Sir Laser Lot and Drego Man are summoned to modern Eternia by Skeletor and He-man or whatever to fight in a self contained story in which we learn a shocking revelation about Ancient Preternia era! The Secret of Keldor is one of my favorite vintage mini comics and we get to see Faker come back after years of neglect, and Clamp Champ fighting alongside King Randor and The Sorceress fighting against Ninjor and Scareglow. What's so memorable about it is EVERYTHING. in so few pages they give us a whole wave of new guys, and completely change everything we thought we knew about Skeletor. FOREVER. Randor is a sympathetic man who longs to be reunited with his missing brother and THE SORCERESS can now leave the confines of Castle Grayskull because the Three Towers had irrevocably changed Eternia and ushered in a new age of the line. Why couldn't these comics just do THAT? That comic made new and different so freaking awesome that it made MOTU 1983-1985 seam BORING to me when I was five.

    Perhaps it's best to not compare? least we see the flaws right? Just enjoy Toyguru's canon for what it is. For me, that includes knowing what has been changed and where ideas come from. That is an uncomfortable subject for some...This is why I refuse to codify "my canon" and enjoy each version of MOTU for what it is and just live in the hypothetical land that is what COULD be instead of what is. Less bickering that way nobody claiming that an idea be theirs. Could you imagine if I felt like I "owned" the things I first suggested that are now Canon? OMG I would be banned.
    Last edited by LORD FALLEN ELDOR; November 7, 2014 at 05:28am.
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  11. #11
    Slashor CreamCheeseAlchemy's Avatar
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    I see several issues at play. First off, we are seeing an approach towards Masters as a continuation of earlier media, as opposed to a reboot. Classics and the DC book continue off stories from the previous motu media. At best, I think we're getting the sort of storytelling of a theme park ride or development pitch- more like a collection of scenarios that will be fleshed out in future story-based media. That said, I can see Mermista killing Merman as a last resort sort of thing. I'm not terribly happy of the the trope that toy franchises have opened up killing characters as a way to rotate in more characters and variants. I more liked how GI Joe Renegades established a core group of heroes and villains and used the rest as a pool for guest stars and recurring players.

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    Historian of Eternia LORD FALLEN ELDOR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreamCheeseAlchemy View Post
    I see several issues at play. First off, we are seeing an approach towards Masters as a continuation of earlier media, as opposed to a reboot. Classics and the DC book continue off stories from the previous motu media. At best, I think we're getting the sort of storytelling of a theme park ride or development pitch- more like a collection of scenarios that will be fleshed out in future story-based media. That said, I can see Mermista killing Merman as a last resort sort of thing. I'm not terribly happy of the the trope that toy franchises have opened up killing characters as a way to rotate in more characters and variants. I more liked how GI Joe Renegades established a core group of heroes and villains and used the rest as a pool for guest stars and recurring players.
    But it isn't a continuation. They are not in direct continuity. Numerous changes in characters and back stories prevent it from being so. It's what in comics is refereed to as a "soft reboot" where things are different, but not everything. It's the worst kind of reboot because it tires to serve two masters, old readers and new readers, but just makes both angry. This was the problem with Superman Returns the film. It didn't suck, except that people where confused by it's "inspired by" lack of continuation with the first two films. Then of course there was the Donner cut and the idea that in Superman Returns he never fought Zod at all...Best to do a HARD reboot, or not reboot at all. But that isn't what we have with these bios or DC comics. Its's a convoluted mess of "Kind of like you remember, but totally isn't because it's mostly new".

    I agree with you about your point with GI Joe Renegade, great example. Shame that got canceled. I hate it when good shows die because I can't afford to buy all the toys to everything. (Young Justice and Thundercats!) Your point also is reflective of Justice League Unlimited. Core group with character spotlights. Heavy rotation of the main-guys and a healthy supply of second string and Z list characters made that Toyline EPIC! Star Wars does this well. As did MOTU in the 1980's. Each year new characters got added to the stories and later got dropped. Zodac was nowhere to be seen in 1985-1987, but that gave room for Gwildor (and would have been Eldor) come into play. It's just like rotating your tires on a car man!

    Quote Originally Posted by Barezz View Post
    So the other day when I was looking at the Fwoosh Mermista pictures and laughed at the decapitated Mer-man pictures, a question occurred.

    In the mini comic, the Heroic Warriors, Great Rebellion, and Evil Warriors are fighting on the same side. Yet, Mermista kills mer-man, Photog seems to fight and defeat Whiplash and Clawful, and Buzz-off almost kills Goat-man.

    So what happens? Do the Evil Warriors turn on them? Do the heroes make a "heel turn" and kill the bad guys? Does Mer-man sexually harrass Mermista past her limits?

    Has anything ever been said about this?

    Now, the real world explanation is that I imagine many of the bios were written years before the mini comics, and the story just sort of evolved differently as a result.
    Mer-Man being a con creeper and Mermista ripping his head off screaming "Cosplay is not Consent" would be pretty funny. Slush head being all like "rrrrrrespect the ladies creepos!" and walks away alongside her.

    I like the idea of Fearless Photog perhaps gaining that moniker for having defeated such powerful enemies. Same for "The Mighty" Specter. Perhaps more charecters could have tag lines like that? Sensational Spider-Man. Uncanny X-Men. It's a very marvel comics thing. Perhaps this could denote military rank for having accomplished great deeds during the Eternian World War.

    It's a shame Duncan was impaled by a clamp. Duncan would be well suited to answer some of these questions about what happened next in Jack Olesker's post He-Man & Skeletor Eternia. All the killing and all the changes, it would be nice if the character's personalities evolved and matured into real adults now that we are. More generally speaking to what you ask, what is Eternia like now? I'd Study WWI and WWII and try to see how international relations played out. Eternian cold war after the ultimate royal rumble? Perhaps take that literally and do something with Icer and Frosta and the Kulataks. Cold War = Ice age? IDK, just brainstorming.

    More to your point, a Days of Future past homage cover would be awesome:

    Last edited by LORD FALLEN ELDOR; November 7, 2014 at 06:08am.
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  13. #13
    Heroic Master of 200X MegaGearMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toyguru View Post
    Pretty much. We only had 12 pages. Could have told this battle in a
    50 page comic and still have room! We had to really pick the key moments (that goes for all 8 of the minis).
    I have a question then...

    Since you aren't with Mattel anymore, are you willing to reveal stuff that WILL NOT get wrapped up in the bios and mini-comics (which seem to be going forward in time) that will be published in 2015?

    Like clarifying exactly what happened during the Second Ultimate Battleground? Who survived it, who died and how?

    Or clear up the connection between the Goddess and the Sorceress? Do they know each other?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Barezz View Post
    So the other day when I was looking at the Fwoosh Mermista pictures and laughed at the decapitated Mer-man pictures, a question occurred.

    In the mini comic, the Heroic Warriors, Great Rebellion, and Evil Warriors are fighting on the same side. Yet, Mermista kills mer-man, Photog seems to fight and defeat Whiplash and Clawful, and Buzz-off almost kills Goat-man.

    So what happens? Do the Evil Warriors turn on them? Do the heroes make a "heel turn" and kill the bad guys? Does Mer-man sexually harrass Mermista past her limits?

    Has anything ever been said about this?

    Now, the real world explanation is that I imagine many of the bios were written years before the mini comics, and the story just sort of evolved differently as a result.
    Most of the events in the Classic Canon and the Second Ultimate Battleground are disconnected, convoluted, and contradicting themeselves. Also had made most of the so called "heroic" characters to look really bad:

    Mermista killing Mer-Man, is so forced that is reading like a Death Battle sentence. Mer-Man has fought for the Eternian freedom and at the end was killed by an ally. So what happened? Suddenly Mer-Man in the middle of a huge battle he became so lustful for Mermista (a character that belongs to another species and another world and with whom never have interacted so far), that he forget the battle, and decided to risk his life for having her. And we speak about Mer-Man who is not exactly the most brave among the Evil Warriors. I could understand if it was Trap-Jaw, but Mer-Man among all people? Come on. And the other explanation that suddenly the Evil Warrriors turn against their allies isn't satisfying neither. I mean the only reason that the Evi Warriors were assembled in the beginning was because of Skeletor. And without their leader it's most likely that they would try to kill each other for the dominance of the Dark Hemisphere, rather than turn against the Heroic Warriors and their allies. Except only if Randor with Skeletor gone, seeing this as a chance to rule all of Eternia, betrayed them and tried to imprisone them so the Evil Warriors they forced to defend themselves and fought back, which would not surpirised me since Randor in the Classic Canon is one of the most despicable characters.

    Orko committing genocide against the Snake Men is also another controversial point, that goes against his character.

    But the worst part is Champ Clamp killing brutally Man At Arms (congratulations to Flutterina for her choise). And Randor as the ******* he is (Randor is the only MOTU character that i didn't give a damn about dying. I loved him in the 200X cartoon when he was a humble soldier, but the Classic Canon ruined his character beyond repair), he rewarded him, making him the new Man At Arms. Really how bad this sounds? He appointed as new Man At Arms the man that killed his best friend. But thank God, that Teela became Queen, and replaced Champ Clamp with Laser-Lot. At least Teela is the most integral character by far, in the Classic Canon.

    And how on Eternia, Jitsu came to be the Lord of Snake Mountain? Last i checked he was just another evil warlord. What happen to Tri-Klops? He was Skeletor's main tactician and inventor, second in command after Evil-Lyn and the most respected among the Evil Warriors. Or Trap-Jaw, that once challenged Skeletor himself, for the leadership. And how the Evil Warriors escaped if the actually turned against the Defenders at the end of the SUB?

    At this point the Classic Canon between bios and mini comics, is just a convoluted and contradictoring mess. I really miss the first mini comics. They had more simple stories, but at least there was a plot and a reasoning in them.
    Last edited by granamyr80; November 7, 2014 at 08:42am.

  15. #15
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    Comparisons to the original four minicomics are a little unfair because they were individual stories and didn't form a continuity. It happened more with the minis that followed to a small degree (The Tale of Teela! and The Power of Point Dread! are linked), but it wasn't a dominant element.

    I'm not a great fan of the Classics minicomics, but I do admire the boldness of trying to squeeze an entire continuity into so little space. It's a very difficult edit and is actually very impressive. A few contradictions with the bios are inevitable. Remember each bio has (probably) more text than one minicomic.

    I also have no issue with major characters being killed off. The fact that people respond with outrage shows exactly why it's a good storytelling technique. Can you imagine a series of 24 in which only the bad guys died? It would be boring.

    Ultimately though, you're entitled to pick and choose what you want from the minis. Scott said that himself ages ago. They're a starting point for imagination, just like the original tales.

    I choose not to pay a great deal of attention to the new minis because I lean towards a storyline based on the Gary Cohn minicomics. The only thing that actually bothers me about the new ones is the title wording. You can only have one ultimate anything!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Comparisons to the original four minicomics are a little unfair because they were individual stories and didn't form a continuity. It happened more with the minis that followed to a small degree (The Tale of Teela! and The Power of Point Dread! are linked), but it wasn't a dominant element.

    I'm not a great fan of the Classics minicomics, but I do admire the boldness of trying to squeeze an entire continuity into so little space. It's a very difficult edit and is actually very impressive. A few contradictions with the bios are inevitable. Remember each bio has (probably) more text than one minicomic.

    I also have no issue with major characters being killed off. The fact that people respond with outrage shows exactly why it's a good storytelling technique. Can you imagine a series of 24 in which only the bad guys died? It would be boring.

    Ultimately though, you're entitled to pick and choose what you want from the minis. Scott said that himself ages ago. They're a starting point for imagination, just like the original tales.

    I choose not to pay a great deal of attention to the new minis because I lean towards a storyline based on the Gary Cohn minicomics. The only thing that actually bothers me about the new ones is the title wording. You can only have one ultimate anything!
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  16. #16
    Heroic Warrior No-Ah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    I have a question then...

    Since you aren't with Mattel anymore, are you willing to reveal stuff that WILL NOT get wrapped up in the bios and mini-comics (which seem to be going forward in time) that will be published in 2015?

    Like clarifying exactly what happened during the Second Ultimate Battleground? Who survived it, who died and how?

    Or clear up the connection between the Goddess and the Sorceress? Do they know each other?
    Scott doesn't have that power. It's like when a writer gets hired to write The Justice League and has all sorts of plans for what he's going to do in a massive 50-issue run, but then gets removed from the book after a year. The ideas which were not published never happened. They were just ideas. Scott could tell us what he wanted to do, but he is no longer the authority of what happened.
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  17. #17
    Heroic Warrior Poweron's Avatar
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    If there was a "heel turn" on anyone's part, I'd imagine it would be the Evil Warriors.

    When the Snake Men and Hsss die, Skeletor has a brief moment where he rises to his prime antagonist role again. It's not hard to imagine the Evil Warriors siding with him once more. Like it or not, the Evil Warriors are a lot of jerks.

    Also, like it or not, Mermista's bio points out that Mermista was "forced" to kill Mer-Man. However you want to play that out (and even if you don't, that's fine), it sounds like Mermista was in a kill or be killed scenario. The time period within which the Heroic and Evil Warriors were allies is no doubt very, very short - and no doubt not on the best of terms either. Mer-Man was an ally when it suited him, he betrayed the truce (presumably along with most others), and he got killed by forcing Mermista's hand.

    Just use your imaginations people. Sure, there could have been better editing on the bios, and sure there could have been a better flow between what was depicted in the mini-comics after space and cuts were considered, and what was actually scripted - but just take it for what it is. Getting frustrated because more things aren't answered makes it sound like you don't want to use your imagination in the first place. The more open plot points, the better.
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  18. #18
    CRITAcal for MOTUC 2015!! Barezz's Avatar
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    Good heavens, I mastered imagination when I was 5.

    Since there is an actual story within the bios and mini comics, this is a question about that story. It is valid, and using or not using imagination has nothing to do with it. Can you imagine if Empire Strikes back had been released, but Return of the Jedi never was? What happens to Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke's father?? Just use your imaginations!

    Since "Keep reading the bios and mini comics" became sort of a stock answer to questions about the MOTUC storyline, there is nothing wrong with asking for clarification on some points.

    I know that NDA's are a real thing and may end up being a reason we never get answers or see the bigger picture, but man that is a shame. It makes me all the more grateful when we get writers like jack Olesker who are willing and able to discuss elements of the story and answer questions.
    It is spelled "Crita", not "Critta". Misspell her name and Crita will knock the "T" out of you!

    Also...get her into the line!

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  19. #19
    Heroic Warrior No-Ah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barezz View Post
    Good heavens, I mastered imagination when I was 5.

    Since there is an actual story within the bios and mini comics, this is a question about that story. It is valid, and using or not using imagination has nothing to do with it. Can you imagine if Empire Strikes back had been released, but Return of the Jedi never was? What happens to Han Solo? Is Darth Vader really Luke's father?? Just use your imaginations!

    Since "Keep reading the bios and mini comics" became sort of a stock answer to questions about the MOTUC storyline, there is nothing wrong with asking for clarification on some points.

    I know that NDA's are a real thing and may end up being a reason we never get answers or see the bigger picture, but man that is a shame. It makes me all the more grateful when we get writers like jack Olesker who are willing and able to discuss elements of the story and answer questions.
    If it wasn't published, it's not any sort of canon. It's one thing to ask a current writer for hints about what's coming. Asking an ex-writer what they were thinking of publishing won't tell you what's canon. Future writers are more than likely to contradict that speculation without fear.

    If it's not in the bios and final mini-comics which Scott wrote, he's in no more authoritative position to decide what happened than you or I anymore. He's off of MOTU.
    Last edited by No-Ah; November 7, 2014 at 04:26pm.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poweron View Post
    If there was a "heel turn" on anyone's part, I'd imagine it would be the Evil Warriors.

    When the Snake Men and Hsss die, Skeletor has a brief moment where he rises to his prime antagonist role again. It's not hard to imagine the Evil Warriors siding with him once more. Like it or not, the Evil Warriors are a lot of jerks.

    Also, like it or not, Mermista's bio points out that Mermista was "forced" to kill Mer-Man. However you want to play that out (and even if you don't, that's fine), it sounds like Mermista was in a kill or be killed scenario. The time period within which the Heroic and Evil Warriors were allies is no doubt very, very short - and no doubt not on the best of terms either. Mer-Man was an ally when it suited him, he betrayed the truce (presumably along with most others), and he got killed by forcing Mermista's hand.

    Just use your imaginations people. Sure, there could have been better editing on the bios, and sure there could have been a better flow between what was depicted in the mini-comics after space and cuts were considered, and what was actually scripted - but just take it for what it is. Getting frustrated because more things aren't answered makes it sound like you don't want to use your imagination in the first place. The more open plot points, the better.
    Except that Skeletor left Eternia immediately after the battle was over. And with Skeletor gone, and Evil-Lyn depowered, how much likely is that the outnumbered Evil Warriors decided to fight the Heroic Warriors and their allies? Who would lead them? Tri-Klops was the next in the hierarchy, but as a good tactician that he is, it's unlikely that he would to try to attack the combined Eternian and Etherian forces. And the most of times that the Evil Warriors were without Skeletor, they ended to retreat and desperded. Also from the bios we don't have any clue that the Evil Warriors actually betrayed or attacked their allies. Beastman and Goat Man continued to live free and well, and Jitsu became the Ruler of the Dark Hemisphere. From this i presume that after the SUB, there was some sort of compromise between the two sides.

    And with Etherians returning to their homeworld, the story of Mer-Man's death is feeling even more forced. The only reason for the whole thing seems to be that since Mer-Man and Mermista are the major MOTU acquatic characters, so let's put them to a Death Battle or Mortal Combat situation and see what happens. Because storywise it's really forced and came out of nowhere.
    Last edited by granamyr80; November 7, 2014 at 04:40pm.

  21. #21
    CRITAcal for MOTUC 2015!! Barezz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by No-Ah View Post
    If it wasn't published, it's not any sort of canon. It's one thing to ask a current writer for hints about what's coming. Asking an ex-writer what they were thinking of publishing won't tell you what's canon. Future writers are more than likely to contradict that speculation without fear.

    If it's not in the bios and final mini-comics which Scott wrote, he's in no more authoritative position to decide what happened than you or I anymore. He's off of MOTU.
    I think the case can be made that the actual writer of a story can be considered much more of an authoritative position to explain and clarify parts of the story he or she wrote than you or I.

    Also, I never said it would be part of the MOTU "canon". Mattel could publish a MOTUC mini comic and wipe out and invalidate the previous story if they wanted. Whoever takes over for the brand could say that Mermista kills Mer-man because he has this insane, frustrating habit of being argumentative, pretending to be an authority on matters he is not, and beating people over the ideas with his viewpoints over and over and over.... and it would be canon.

    Scott could reveal what his plans were, and the official canon could later contradict that. It doesn't make it any less interesting to hear about. I am genuinely curious as to what happened during that battle.
    It is spelled "Crita", not "Critta". Misspell her name and Crita will knock the "T" out of you!

    Also...get her into the line!

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  22. #22
    Heroic Warrior Poweron's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=granamyr80;3523899]
    Except that Skeletor left Eternia immediately after the battle was over. And with Skeletor gone, and Evil-Lyn depowered, how much likely is that the outnumbered Evil Warriors decided to fight the Heroic Warriors and their allies?
    There is at least a bit of time after Hsss' death that Skeletor gets his mojo back and betrays the Heroic Warriors, it's not inconceivable that the majority of his goons would get behind him once more.

    I think that part of the problem in imagining alot of this is just that the recent mini-comics seemed to be telling the story very quickly. Like Scott wrote, much of that is due to space constraints and editing.

    Who would lead them? Tri-Klops was the next in the hierarchy, but as a good tactician that he is, it's unlikely that he would to try to attack the combined Eternian and Etherian forces. And the most of times that the Evil Warriors were without Skeletor, they ended to retreat and desperded. Also from the bios we don't have any clue that the Evil Warriors actually betrayed or attacked their allies. Beastman and Goat Man continued to live free and well, and Jitsu became the Ruler of the Dark Hemisphere. From this i presume that after the SUB, there was some sort of compromise between the two sides.
    Skeletor could have lead a betrayal for longer than the mini-comics made it seem. Once he'd been ravaged by Hordak and taken to the stars, however, we're told that there is a truce on Eternia enforced by Strobo. Up until then, though, all bets were off.

    I'll admit that it does come off forced that the aquatic characters are pitched in do or die battle, but that's kind of how it goes sometimes. You have to send the aquatic team-mate after the aquatic foe etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Barezz View Post
    I am genuinely curious as to what happened during that battle.
    I hear you. Yes, it would be cool. I'm just championing imagination because that's what we're left with. I'm just trying to find the positive.

    Even when all was said and done with the Star Wars Trilogy, fans continued to piece things together in their own minds - but you're right, it is still cool to know in a greater capacity.
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  23. #23
    Heroic Warrior No-Ah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barezz View Post
    I think the case can be made that the actual writer of a story can be considered much more of an authoritative position to explain and clarify parts of the story he or she wrote than you or I.

    Also, I never said it would be part of the MOTU "canon". Mattel could publish a MOTUC mini comic and wipe out and invalidate the previous story if they wanted. Whoever takes over for the brand could say that Mermista kills Mer-man because he has this insane, frustrating habit of being argumentative, pretending to be an authority on matters he is not, and beating people over the ideas with his viewpoints over and over and over.... and it would be canon.

    Scott could reveal what his plans were, and the official canon could later contradict that. It doesn't make it any less interesting to hear about. I am genuinely curious as to what happened during that battle.
    When it comes to a shared universe, I disagree.

    Let me give you an example: James Robinson was hired to write The Justice League. He had a big long story planned out, and he wanted to feature Congorilla (seriously!)
    However, there were cross-overs, and line-wide events and he was off the book a year later. He never got to tell the story he wanted to.

    You or I could ask him about what he wanted to do, but we can't ask him about what actually happened to the characters beyond what he wrote. That's up to the next guy and the guy after him to decide.

    Now, if I were to create and publish a series of novels and not let anyone else contribute, then I could tell you what happened between stories, with full authority.

    But MOTU doesn't belong to Scott. He had the job for a while. Now, it's someone else's. We can ask him what he was planning, but not what "happened." It's no longer his call to make.

    The work which did make it to publication stands on its own.
    Last edited by No-Ah; November 7, 2014 at 06:15pm.
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  24. #24
    SoH Supporter He-Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barezz View Post
    I think the case can be made that the actual writer of a story can be considered much more of an authoritative position to explain and clarify parts of the story he or she wrote than you or I.

    Also, I never said it would be part of the MOTU "canon". Mattel could publish a MOTUC mini comic and wipe out and invalidate the previous story if they wanted. Whoever takes over for the brand could say that Mermista kills Mer-man because he has this insane, frustrating habit of being argumentative, pretending to be an authority on matters he is not, and beating people over the ideas with his viewpoints over and over and over.... and it would be canon.

    Scott could reveal what his plans were, and the official canon could later contradict that. It doesn't make it any less interesting to hear about. I am genuinely curious as to what happened during that battle.
    I agree with you in that I really want to know what Scott's plans were...though maybe the next Mini comics and the rest of the bios will flesh most of it out.

  25. #25
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    [QUOTE=Poweron;3523913]
    Quote Originally Posted by granamyr80 View Post

    There is at least a bit of time after Hsss' death that Skeletor gets his mojo back and betrays the Heroic Warriors, it's not inconceivable that the majority of his goons would get behind him once more.

    I think that part of the problem in imagining alot of this is just that the recent mini-comics seemed to be telling the story very quickly. Like Scott wrote, much of that is due to space constraints and editing.



    Skeletor could have lead a betrayal for longer than the mini-comics made it seem. Once he'd been ravaged by Hordak and taken to the stars, however, we're told that there is a truce on Eternia enforced by Strobo. Up until then, though, all bets were off.

    I'll admit that it does come off forced that the aquatic characters are pitched in do or die battle, but that's kind of how it goes sometimes. You have to send the aquatic team-mate after the aquatic foe etc.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I hear you. Yes, it would be cool. I'm just championing imagination because that's what we're left with. I'm just trying to find the positive.

    Even when all was said and done with the Star Wars Trilogy, fans continued to piece things together in their own minds - but you're right, it is still cool to know in a greater capacity.

    From the mini comics and the bios, it was said that Skeletor once he defeated Hordak and healed himself, he left Eternia and went after the Horde Empire. At least from his part, doesn't seem that he continued the battle after Hordak's defeat. And this have to be the most likely scenario, since at the beginning of the next mini comic He-Man and Skeletor are still allies against the Horde. So He-Man still trusts him enough to continue to fight side by side with him.

    But if actually Skeletor decided to fight against thousands of Eternians and Etherians, and the Evil Warriors standed on their leader's side in a 300-style last stand, then i really admire their courage. Maybe they are more "heroic" than i previously thought!

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