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Thread: Roast Gooble Dinner - Episode 022 Discussion!

  1. #26
    Do it right or not at all Reboot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    But now after re-watching some Filmation (Daimar the Demon-notwithstanding, a wizard, no matter how inexperienced, summoning a demon for a playmate seems DUMB to my RPG based mind), I think the bio went too far.... I know I went off on Orko for Daimar the Demon, but even this could be explained...maybe he didn't grasp the concept of a demon.
    Well, "demon" varies depending on what you read. Take a Buffy/Angel view, with characters like Lorne who are nice guys while still nominally being "demons" around, and it's reckless, but not the sort of guaranteed Bad Thing you're seeing.

  2. #27
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Montork View Post
    But did you guys have him do exactly that in one of the last issues of the comic, when he went to find his wand?
    Yeah, the last issue dealt with Orko because there really was no one else better suited to close out our last issue.
    There's a LOT of stuff packed and hidden in that dialog and events of that story. We hint at a lot of things and we put a lot of heart into that issue because like Emiliano said, for us Orko was the heart of MOTU.

  3. #28
    Heroic Warrior Emiliano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Montork View Post
    But did you guys have him do exactly that in one of the last issues of the comic, when he went to find his wand?
    Yes, that's largerly my "fault"
    The (few) times I write stories, I always use the monomyth.
    Just by my observation, in a serilized story, you don't only use the Hero's Jurney for the main story, but also in the single episodes.
    Writers just make smaller version, taking their characters through single, smaller and shorter journey.
    Usually procedural TV shows are a good example of this.
    We get into a new story where the protagonist has to overcome a fear or deal with a problem that matter at the moment.
    By the end of the episode, for example, the detective will solve that week's case, but by what he learnt while doing his job, will also fix the week's issue with his family/girlfriend, etc.

    That's what I wanted with that Orko story.
    It wasn't THE Orko story. It wasn't going to be the end of the Journey for Orko. Just a small Hero's Jurney within the bigger Orko's Hero Journey.
    Personally I think that's the story that works better. It has a very simple and clear plot and it offer a nice payback for both the character and the readers.
    But it's just a single step in getting Orko to another level.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallstar View Post
    Is this Halloween surprise something MOTU-related?
    Yep, absolutely. Keep an eye out for it next week sometime!

    ~Penny~

  5. #30
    Court Magician MykEd's Avatar
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    I was listening to this at work today.
    I work at a book warehouse; we buy and resell used books on Amazon. During the podcast, I was digging through a box for an order and I found a book called Penny Dreadful. Got a kick out of that

    Anyway, as a writer myself, I have to say I agree partially about the whole monomyth theme. In college, I majored in creative writing and never once took a class or even learned a bit about the Hero's Journey. I mentioned it in class and a teacher just kind of waved it off, but we did eventually learn the archetypes and stuff from it.
    Let me say, for any story, it is very important. While the story or character development doesn't have to follow it directly, character growth is important, and getting from point a to point b is as well.
    I know this is all a "well, duh" type thing, but I just wanted to say that I think it's important.

  6. #31
    Warrior of Evolution 13977's Avatar
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    Good episode guys. Danielle contributed quite a bit and felt comfortable talking with you all.

    I must say I've never really been an Orko fan but I really don't like his bio. Don't like the idea of him pretending to be goofy and is really watchman or guardian for Adam. What was wrong with the loosing his wand story, and rescuing young Adam from the Tar swamp on his arrival.
    I know you guys said you didn't like it but I'd didn't have any issues on how MYP handled Orko.

    With the Eternia Bnio two things I don't like is the idea the Elders not only know something the Overlords don't but that they managed to trick them with this knowledge as well. A it make the Elders seem dishonest and B make the Overlords seem less powerful/all knowing (still wish the Overlords had not been Trollan as well).
    MOTUC NA Most Wanted: Darius, Kayo, Vizar, Hoove, Lizorr

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    Trade my Red Stone He-Ro Staff for a Green one
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  7. #32
    Heroic Warrior Khror's Avatar
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    Well for my part, about Orko I would say… Why not?
    Even if for me also, at the beginning, thinking that Orko was playing a game was a little bit difficult to accept, I realized at the end his bios is compatible and do not kill the character at all (according to what is officially known about Orko) (Except for the loss of his power… but it’s a detail).

    IMO I think it’s because this bios breaks the image you imagined for Orko that you seem not to be happy with it. But after all, who knows who really is Orko?
    I think that Orko had to be seen simply as a buffoon and for those that considered him only like that, there isn’t any problem with the bios now.

    However, I agree that this new aspect of Orko wasn’t really a necessity but, that’s not that bad.

    Also, As it was stated before :
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoffrod View Post
    Actually, they could have totally saved that bio by adding that Orko's trip to Eternia messed up his memory so he didnt realize his role until later in the future. That would have kept his nature true and his important role much better played out. I think that would have kept ALMOST everyone happier.
    This is also a possibility that could satisfy you .. no ?
    For me it’s alright

    I’m one of those that don’t like Orko now (and as I was a children too) and I’m convinced I would have loved the MOTU the same if Orko wasn’t part of the Mytho. I don’t think he was that much important in the alchemy of the MOTU despite what is said in this episode of RGD.

    With this Bios, Orko can be someone else than the poor and uninteresting character he has always been. He was the Jar Jar Binks of the MOTU (One of the reason why I hate episode 1 of SW). Before today, I was interested in the Trollans but not in Orko. Now, I imagine how Orko could be an interesting character.

    Also, This bios is closely linked to the episode with King Grayskull in MYP cartoon when he loses faith (and his sword) and meet the oracle that in fact is a Trollan that gives him his faith and sword back.

    But what I agree with you is that the bios shouldn’t be used to replace what is the purpose of a cartoon or comics.
    Please Mattel, gives fans a new entertainment !

  8. #33
    Heroic Warrior Emiliano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khror View Post
    W
    IMO I think it’s because this bios breaks the image you imagined for Orko that you seem not to be happy with it. But after all, who knows who really is Orko?
    The audience that have known Orko for 20+ years.
    By changing completely the nature of the character, you just created a new one and replaced the old Orko.
    So this is a new character named Orko, that has very little to do with the Orko we knew.

  9. #34
    Heroic Warrior THE RAW's Avatar
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    i mean, i love the Orko we all know too
    but
    Orko being a spy could mean we´ve being tricked all those years too!!!

  10. #35
    Heroic Warrior Khror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by THE RAW View Post
    but
    Orko being a spy could mean we´ve being tricked all those years too!!!
    You've got the point!

    I consider myself as part of "The audience that have known Orko for 20+ years" but I'm still convinced the problem is more in the heart of each of us than in the Bios.

  11. #36
    Heroic Master of 200X MegaGearMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emiliano View Post
    The audience that have known Orko for 20+ years.
    By changing completely the nature of the character, you just created a new one and replaced the old Orko.
    So this is a new character named Orko, that has very little to do with the Orko we knew.
    I'm not defending the Orko bio, but then isn't this the case with everyone? Aren't these ALL new versions of old characters?

    This is the idea that I called in with from Episode 10, when I said that you guys might be "setting yourselves up for disappointment" if you want these characters to be the same as you remember. You might expect the characters and world to be the same, but since it's a new continuity, Mattel could totally change everything up in the new reality. Orko is probably the most extreme since he's a major character, but I know we'll probably see more changes to lesser characters.

    Wouldn't MOTUC be something like how the Optimus Prime from the Bayformer movies is a different character from the Sunbow cartoon Prime or the Animated Prime? Orko in Filmation is different from Orko in MYP and Orko in Classics. I guess I'm used to the idea of there being different incarnations of characters from era to era (I collect Transformers, but only the eras that I like).

    Quote Originally Posted by THE RAW View Post
    i mean, i love the Orko we all know too but Orko being a spy could mean we´ve being tricked all those years too!!!
    But you didn't get tricked. MOTUC Orko isn't Filmation Orko, nor is he MYP Orko or Star Comics Orko.

    Now if Mattel is saying that MOTUC Orko was ALWAYS faking incompetence in all of his incarnations, it would be the same thing as the Spider-Clone. Where all those years ago, Spider-Man battled a clone that The Jackal made of him, but the clone BEAT Spider-Man and took his place! So the Peter Parker we've been reading about for all those years wasn't really Peter at all!
    Last edited by MegaGearMax; October 22, 2010 at 12:01pm.

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  12. #37
    Scrolls Reviewer Jukka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    I guess I'm used to the idea of there being different incarnations of characters from era to era
    I think it's the dual problem, where MOTUC bios are trying (1) to make one cohesive world that somewhat justifies backstories and origins that clashed in the past; to bring them together.
    In a sense, what they've said; to give nod to what was there before. Atleast, that's what I've gotten out of everything.


    And at the same time (2) to make something with it's new twists (additions to the gaps that we've never seen before with each character, respectfully), that may or may not be used in the future incarnations.



    (1*) Orko's bio doesn't really make nod to the rich history there is about him.

    (2*) Having him retain this "Trollan Spy" aspect in any later incarnations, is definitely a new take, but not the best way they could have taken him.




    I am on the same level with Emiliano on his line about after I read that, I practically forgot the rest of the bio. Because, this bio isn't about Orko, so much as it's about:

    50% - Overlords of Trolla & Cosmic Warriors
    35% - Trollan Sword of He
    15% - Orko and his position/backstory



    ---
    On a lighter side of things; I want to see He-Ro with the Powersword, and his Trollan watcher; Uncle Montork!!!!




  13. #38
    Heroic Warrior Croaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    Wouldn't MOTUC be something like how the Optimus Prime from the Bayformer movies is a different character from the Sunbow cartoon Prime or the Animated Prime? Orko in Filmation is different from Orko in MYP and Orko in Classics. I guess I'm used to the idea of there being different incarnations of characters from era to era (I collect Transformers, but only the eras that I like).
    I've been thinking this for a while as well.
    I guess, also being a transformers collector/fan, I'm used to this type of thing where every few years we get a new 'version' of the principle characters.
    Sometimes Optimus is a great leader, sometimes he's just learning, got kicked out of the academy, sometimes he evolved from a bot named Orion Pax, sometimes not, etc.

    They are all different versions. (it's like the DC multiverse. MOTUC is like Earth-2 or something along those lines). I also think that's why the new bios haven't angered me much. They don't change anything about Filmation, minicomics, MYP, MVC. They're not trying to ret-con these stories, as MGM mentioned above.
    This is an entirely new story, which is trying to take elements of all pervious versions and tie them together.

  14. #39
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    I believe everyone has recognized this is a new story.
    That shouldn't even be used as a position for debate.

    The discussion is actually about why the MOTUC story used the info it did when trying to merge all the canons and/or why certain new plot points were created.
    And as we've all discussed many times before, there's many ways it could have been done.
    And at times, we (us on the show and all of you here) have opinions on why we think another approach would have been more successful.

    Compound that with how it's a bit confusing when you consider how often we're told how the figure sculpts are intended to be rooted in the classic MOTU, yet the bios contains so many 200x and newly altered plot points.
    One might even argue that at times, it feels the figures don't belong in the packaging that contains them.

    So I think the real question to ponder is:
    Is this new story good?
    And that's what we debate on the show. The choices made, the story told, etc.

    And when it comes to the Orko bio, I say no.
    I don't think this was a good story.

    It's all relative, of course. You like what ya like!
    There are gonna be people who think Orko's MOTUC bio is the oyster's ice skates.

  15. #40
    Grew up on a horse Baena's Avatar
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    Just listened in.
    Penny Dreadful was delightful!

    Orko is dumb. Death to Orko. He has no place in MotU.
    He's just a dummy dumb dumb. If he went away completely I wouldn't miss him in the slightest.



    Bring on more Cosmic Enforcers and more HE-MEN!!!
    We don't stop playing because we grow old, we grow old because we stop playing. -George Bernard Shaw
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  16. #41
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    And the weak argument award goes to Captain Sarcastic himself: Baena!

  17. #42
    Heroic Warrior Croaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JVS3 View Post
    I believe everyone has recognized this is a new story.
    That shouldn't even be used as a position for debate. ...

    So I think the real question to ponder is:
    Is this new story good?
    And that's what we debate on the show. The choices made, the story told, etc.
    I guess that it seems in many of the arguments and debates going on in the forums it really seems that most people aren't recognizing this.

    The main complaint is that this new story is bad or faulty because it's not like the old story. Which really is absurd if it is supposed to be a new story.

    If it truly is a new story, before we've read Orko's bio (or anyone's for that matter) we don't know who they are. Nothing. He could be a wizard, a clone of an old council member, a spy, He-man from the future depowered, shrunken and turned blue.

    So I think it's totally fair to argue whether the story is good based on its internal merits. For example the last idea above (future He-man shrunk) is a bad idea and deserves to be decried as such.

    But the trouble I'm having with many of the reactions to the bios is that most rebuttals are based on the 'this is different' attitude. Of course this isn't the Orko we loved as kids. It's a new interpretation with a new story.

    I think that many of Emiliano's critiques are very valid. i.e.:
    Is the bio the proper place to try and tell this kind of story?
    The lack of proper character development (the hero's journey)
    The drastic change of a character (as opposed to the slight change)

    But consider this:
    In this new story the overlords of Trolla are the supreme power in the galaxy. They maintain a corps of warriors to 'police' space - the cosmic enforcers. They also have a magic sword with the power of the universe which is given to one warrior - the Cosmic Warrior.
    Some old guys on a planet beg them to leave this most powerful sword on their world for several hundred years because of a prophecy. The overlords agree, getting Zodac in return to be a cosmic enforcer.

    Given this set up is it a good story idea to have a spy or observer sent to watch over the sword? Especially when the chosen one(s) show up?
    I think that sounds pretty good and makes sense.
    Does it have to be Orko?
    Well, he is the only Trollan around without creating a new character.

    I think a lot of the reactions to Orko's bio, even if they integrate excellent critiques are still suffering from a knee-jerk reaction of "this is too different".


    Can we critique the new story about being a green latern rip off? - of course!
    Is it a vaild critique to say characters have changed too much?
    That's what's up for debate.

    When making a new version, interpretation, story etc. you generally keep the archetypes but recreate specific personalities and back stories.
    He-man - hero, strong, powerful
    MAA - wise mentor, old soldier
    Orko - bumbling sidekick
    but who they are beyond a few core attributes is totally up for grabs.

    (I really don't like what Bay did with Bumblebee in the movies. Too totally different from his G1 character. But I don't bring it up much because I'm not sure it's a valid critique because they were trying to make a new interpretation.)

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by JVS3 View Post
    I believe everyone has recognized this is a new story.
    That shouldn't even be used as a position for debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Croaker View Post
    The main complaint is that this new story is bad or faulty because it's not like the old story. Which really is absurd if it is supposed to be a new story.

    If it truly is a new story, before we've read Orko's bio (or anyone's for that matter) we don't know who they are. Nothing. He could be a wizard, a clone of an old council member, a spy, He-man from the future depowered, shrunken and turned blue.
    Here's thing I see about it being a new story. The events of a story are one thing, but I think a great majority of us (right or wrong) see a new story with the characters we've loved forever. There's a difference between changing the events of a story and changing the core of who a character is. Cloning and splitting swords are events that we may debate and argue, but changing from innocent fish-out-of-water to super-spy seems to be too much for a lot of people. The WHAT and HOW seems flexible but the WHO seems more important.

    That's just the way I see it... I may be full of poo...

  19. #44
    Evil Warrior jibernish's Avatar
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    I agree with Penny Dreadful: I want a novel. So why can’t/won’t Mattel give us one?

    Mattel is a for-profit business that makes its decisions based on the bottom line: money. There is money out there for Mattel to grab, but they won’t, can’t, or don’t trust their ability to do so.

    1 - There is money to be had: There is a rabid fan base that would eat up a well written, respectful story that honors the spirit of MOTU. We are starved of story. The characters we love are suffocating in these bios, and I want to see them live and breathe not only in my imagination, but in some sort of collective reality.

    While there may not be enough of us to make investing in a movie, cartoon series, comic book series, or retail toy line a safe bet for them, I would think that producing a novel would be completely doable. I'd pre-pay for a novel written (or at least planned out) by Val and Emiliano, or someone else that understands the brand. Or just license it out and don't be greedy.

    2 - But they can’t grab it: Put MOTU up against Star Wars, GI Joe, or Transformers. Those stories aren’t better than MOTU, just better managed. And so their fans get much more storytelling than we do. Mattel has left a lot of money on the table that they could have pocketed if they were better able to manage the brand. A very simple example is to give us a 200x style Grizzlor heads. Doing so would increase figures sold, but Mattel has some policy (management device) that says they can’t, even if it would mean more money for them. But more sweeping than that, there have been more years than not when Mattel has let the line lie dormant, and wasted the opportunity to make money.

    I really do believe that Scott is doing the best he can, and I am grateful to him and the 4H for this awesome line of figures. It has reawakened the kid in me who looks at the world and sees magic instead of just traffic, bills, and work. But I think the negativity that comes out, at least in me, is because I just want more He-man, and I think under different management, I would have that. It’s only natural to be frustrated with something that gets in the way of your desires and I feel we are suffering from their past mistakes (200x toyline packing).

    PS – Val, I’d love to hear a podcast or two about what you think makes MOTU “profound” as mentioned in episode 21, and thanks guys for helping me appreciate Orko. I was with Dan, but you guys won me over. I can’t believe I missed the point of Orko all these years.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khror View Post
    Well for my part, about Orko I would say… Why not?
    IMO I think it’s because this bios breaks the image you imagined for Orko that you seem not to be happy with it. But after all, who knows who really is Orko?
    To me, Orko is an innocent character who, despite his shortcomings, is innately good and loyal to his friends. As Val and Emiliano said, he is the heart of MOTU. I always felt he would grow to learn just how important he is over time. As Emiliano said, it is important that Orko follow his own path in the hero's journey. Slapping this secret agent stuff on the character utterly undermines everything the character was, sadly destroys his innocence and sincerity (which I feel are essential), and kills any potential for what the character could have been. MOTUC Orko is a case where this character simply isn't even Orko anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax
    I'm not defending the Orko bio, but then isn't this the case with everyone? Aren't these ALL new versions of old characters?
    I know what you're saying Max, but what about when the new versions of the characters are poorly depicted? Admittedly, I'm not a fan of radically altering the very nature of established and beloved characters, but if a writer is going to make major changes to these characters they should be darn sure to do so with skill and with respect for the source material. In other words, if the bio writers want to make changes then they shouldn't make changes for the worse. Good solid writing could really help these bios. Unfortunately, the execution here isn't always up to snuff. I'm fine with adding new elements to the characters but I feel this should be done WELL and should, ideally, be respectful to the source material. For example, I thought Scareglow's bio was excellent. It keeps the nature of the character intact and fills in some great back story. It doesn't say "Scareglow is just pretending to be a ghost to scare people. He's really Songster in disguise!"

    I agree with what has been said about the bio format not lending itself very well to narrative storytelling. However, I DO think these can be executed in a better way. The MOTUC bios tend to be convoluted, and some of them present the reader with questionable storytelling and character choices. I'm very glad the writers want to retain many classic elements and that they are trying to tie things together, but this needs to be done skillfully with an insight into what works and what doesn't.

    ~Penny Dreadful~
    Last edited by Penny Dreadful; October 22, 2010 at 05:59pm.

  21. #46
    Heroic Warrior Croaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scotward View Post
    Here's thing I see about it being a new story. The events of a story are one thing, but I think a great majority of us (right or wrong) see a new story with the characters we've loved forever. There's a difference between changing the events of a story and changing the core of who a character is. Cloning and splitting swords are events that we may debate and argue, but changing from innocent fish-out-of-water to super-spy seems to be too much for a lot of people. The WHAT and HOW seems flexible but the WHO seems more important.
    I do agree with all of this - but the whole tone around here about the bios is very reminiscent of Transformers fandom in the mid 90s when Beast Wars came out. (Look up TRUKK NOT MUNKEY if you're interested) Thank goodness we are being much more civil.

    These type of story changes have happened before in MOTU. Look at the first mini comics to filmation for a great example.
    He-man goes from being a brave savage from the jungle who fights with a techno vest and axe to being a spoiled young prince who gets a magic sword and turns into a superhero. These are incredibly different characters. They rewrote He-man.

    Imagine all MOTU narrative in the 80's had continued the story of the early minicomics. And now 20 years later we were getting the filmation version. There would be huge outcry about changing our noble barbarian into Superman.
    I guess nobody was really that attached to the old minicomics to have the same effect when the story changed as we are today with MOTUC (plus most of us were kids then with a very different view towards things.)

  22. #47
    Johan Eggink Eterniandreams's Avatar
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    I agree with Max and Croaker. I also like the new spin for this Orko.

  23. #48
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Croaker View Post
    I do agree with all of this - but the whole tone around here about the bios is very reminiscent of Transformers fandom in the mid 90s when Beast Wars came out. (Look up TRUKK NOT MUNKEY if you're interested) Thank goodness we are being much more civil.
    You should have been around for the 200x sword reveal!
    That wasn't so nice.
    And let's face it, that sword is still hated by many and it's had 10 years to sink in.

    You also have people who still don't like Filmation 30 years later and prefer the original Savage He-Man.

    A comparison between the classic and the MOTUC bios are inevitable.
    You'll have people who prefer the execution on one or the other.
    It's just a given.

  24. #49
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    I think that a lot of this is subjective.

    There's no doubt that Orko's nature has been radically changed as I am unaware of his ever having had this sort of portrayal in the past. But after that, there's a lot of stuff that arises that the judgment of is subjective in nature.

    Should they change the nature of a fairly major and well-known character? That's a subjective question. Some people strive on evolution and change and believe that there is very little that is set in stone. Others feel that something that worked well in the past shouldn't be tinkered too much, that certain things should be set in stone because they are truly necessary for MOTU. The thing is that not everyone agrees with what those things are and not everyone feels that Orko's characterization was an aspect that had to remain as is. Some people flat out dislike Orko, which for them would be reason enough to have change. Others love him as is, thus changing his nature isn't appreciated.

    Then once the change is made, some people feel that it adds something valuable to MOTU while others feel that it detracts. I don't think there's a cut and dried "right or wrong" response to that. It all depends on a person's sensibilities and tastes. Some people here have stated they like the changes to Orko's story, others feel that the changes detracted from it. But once again, it's a matter of subjective preference.

    Also, please note that I am referencing the content of the story when I refer to subjectivity, not specific aspects of the writing as certain things with regards to the mechanics of writing (grammar, punctuation, etc) are clearly objective.

  25. #50
    Heroic Reviewer of MOTUC Pixel Dan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baena View Post
    Just listened in.
    Penny Dreadful was delightful!

    Orko is dumb. Death to Orko. He has no place in MotU.
    He's just a dummy dumb dumb. If he went away completely I wouldn't miss him in the slightest.


    I like this guy! He knows his stuff!!

    Bring on more Cosmic Enforcers and more HE-MEN!!!
    Oh wait...nevermind. I spoke too soon.

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