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Thread: Roast Gooble Dinner - Episode 022 Discussion!

  1. #51
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    Nate is BANNED from future episodes of RGD.

  2. #52
    Grew up on a horse Baena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixel Dan View Post
    I like this guy! He knows his stuff!!



    Oh wait...nevermind. I spoke too soon.

    I counted on that post making you smile.

    Quote Originally Posted by JVS3 View Post
    Nate is BANNED from future episodes of RGD.
    Oh so now we're not allowed our opinions eh? Is that how it is now? Mwaaaaahhhh!
    (if you only had a penny every time you heard that right?)

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  3. #53
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    I haven't heard THAT too much, but I have posted "BANNED!" a lot!
    Don't do it to often, but it's fun to say.

  4. #54
    Heroic Master of 200X MegaGearMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penny Dreadful View Post
    To me, Orko is an innocent character who, despite his shortcomings, is innately good and loyal to his friends. As Val and Emiliano said, he is the heart of MOTU. I always felt he would grow to learn just how important he is over time. As Emiliano said, it is important that Orko follow his own path in the hero's journey. Slapping this secret agent stuff on the character utterly undermines everything the character was, sadly destroys his innocence and sincerity (which I feel are essential), and kills any potential for what the character could have been. MOTUC Orko is a case where this character simply isn't even Orko anymore.
    Maybe it kills the potential for MOTUC Orko, but not all of them. The next incarnation of Orko might be more like the other versions.

    This IS Orko...in the MOTUC reality. It's akin to BayBumblebee. G1 Bumblebee was the smallest and the weakest Autobot. He was a spy with no weapons or fighting skill who transformed into a Volkswagon. Michael Bay's Bumblebee is a completely different character. In the movies, he's still a spy and still the smallest. But now he's a warrior who doesn't talk, has a Plasma Cannon and missiles and transforms into a Camaro. Same character, different era.

    Another example is Teela. In the Filmation canon, she's 18, busts Adam's chps for not taking combat seriously and usually disobeys her father's orders, while the younger 16 year old MYP Teela is different. Although she still busts Adam's chops, it's more like a friendly rivalry and has way more discipline. Same character, different era.

    I know what you're saying Max, but what about when the new versions of the characters are poorly depicted? Admittedly, I'm not a fan of radically altering the very nature of established and beloved characters, but if a writer is going to make major changes to to these characters they should be darn sure to do so with skill and with respect for the source material. In other words, if the bio writers want to make changes then they shouldn't make changes for the worse. Good solid writing could really help these bios. Unfortunately, the execution here isn't always up to snuff. I'm fine with adding new elements to the characters but I feel this should be done WELL and should, ideally, be respectful to the source material. For example, I thought Scareglow's bio was excellent. It keeps the nature of the character intact and fills in some great back story. It doesn't say "Scareglow is just pretending to be a ghost to scare people. He's really Songster in disguise!"
    What if they aren't trying to be respectful to the original source? What if they are trying to make THEIR own new version of MOTU? There are new sheriffs in town, with their own new brand of lawbringing.

    I'm not too keen on making characters radically different either. At first I hated Bay's TFs because they weren't familiar. The characters might have had familiar names and maybe some familiar design and personality elements if you squint real hard, but they were new characters. In time, I accepted Bayformers as it's own era because the movie people weren't getting G1 wrong, but they were making up their own version of the mythos.

    Unfortunately, unlike Transformers, we can't ignore the current era and await new or revamped product for the other eras. MOTUC is all we have.

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  5. #55
    Heroic Warrior Emiliano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    What if they aren't trying to be respectful to the original source? What if they are trying to make THEIR own new version of MOTU? There are new sheriffs in town, with their own new brand of lawbringing.
    About the whole "this is new canon" argument I can only say one thing. Not everything new is good all the time.

    Buy the whole "this is new" we could have He-Man changed in a dark haired armored truck driver that shot missiles from his magical guitar and transforms by singing Elvis's songs.
    And the logo on the packaging is MOTU Classic.
    This is new, we need to pretend this is the first time we get to know these character...
    The only problem is that isn't all new at all, and that wouldn't be He-Man.

    The TF movie doesn't stand up for a few reasons. Bumblebee isn't the only change.
    Most of the context of the story and lore has changed. That makes easy to accept the other changes.
    On the other hand, his rank skills and position in the Autobot team has nothing to do with the character purpose in the story.
    In the movie, Bumblebee serves exactly the same purpose he serves in the G1 cartoon: he's the link for the human to the Transformers, he's the guy that relate to them and take the human characters/us to get to know the Autobots. That hasn't changed.

    In general, I accept that some people welcome changes.
    But when those changes are so radical I still wonder if they likes they same MOTU I liked all these years.

  6. #56
    Heroic Master of 200X MegaGearMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emiliano View Post
    About the whole "this is new canon" argument I can only say one thing. Not everything new is good all the time.

    Buy the whole "this is new" we could have He-Man changed in a dark haired armored truck driver that shot missiles from his magical guitar and transforms by singing Elvis's songs.
    And the logo on the packaging is MOTU Classic.
    This is new, we need to pretend this is the first time we get to know these character...
    The only problem is that isn't all new at all, and that wouldn't be He-Man.
    That would be a He-Man, if Mattel made that character He-Man. Not a very good sounding He-Man, but another version of He-Man that joins the others.

    The TF movie doesn't stand up for a few reasons. Bumblebee isn't the only change. Most of the context of the story and lore has changed. That makes easy to accept the other changes. On the other hand, his rank skills and position in the Autobot team has nothing to do with the character purpose in the story. In the movie, Bumblebee serves exactly the same purpose he serves in the G1 cartoon: he's the link for the human to the Transformers, he's the guy that relate to them and take the human characters/us to get to know the Autobots. That hasn't changed.
    Wouldn't this Orko be even MORE capable of helping Adam through his hero's journey than the old Orko?

    In general, I accept that some people welcome changes.
    But when those changes are so radical I still wonder if they likes they same MOTU I liked all these years.
    You always say this...

    I think it's like being a 200X fan: you could love those characters from the 80's, but be open to accepting improvements to those characters on a case-by-case basis. For example, I think Buzz-Off was always cool, but he's made even better by not sharing parts with the other characters.

    In Orko's case, you have fans that think he blows and welcome any change that makes him less like a Saturday morning cartoon mascot. It's like debating whether to change the annoying Jar Jar Binks or Snarf "for the better".

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  7. #57
    Heroic Warrior Emiliano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    That would be a He-Man, if Mattel made that character He-Man. Not a very good sounding He-Man, but another version of He-Man that joins the others.
    Well, maybe for you my friend
    I like the MOTU I grew up with.
    People can love new stuff, nothing bad about that.
    But if I have no attachment to something that has nothing to do with MOTU, I won't be a fan and I can't love it just for the name
    It's something with the name MOTU stamped on it, but it won't be part of the MOTU I know and I love.

    Wouldn't this Orko be even MORE capable of helping Adam through his hero's journey than the old Orko?
    Hum, that isn't how it works.
    The hero's journey is the number of steps a character go through in his evolution and comes out of it changed.
    This new Orko doesn't "become" something else, he don't get his new role through the events in the story.
    This new Orko is already changed, there is no journey here.

    That said, the monomyth is something else. Specifics of the history and role of the characters are all realtive. The monomyth is something that exists above the story, so talking about Hero's journey in relation to what Orko is able to help out more or less Adam isn't correct (please don't take this bad, they are just completely different topics)

    If we want to talk specifics, the point is not if Orko's is more able to help Adam now. Is that what role Orko has in the narrative and MOTU mythology.

  8. #58
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    While I do see where Val, Emiliano, PennyDreadful, and Pixel Dan are coming from, I do have to partially disagree about the Orko situation, and here's why:

    the Filmation Orko fit in the Filmation show.

    Could you honestly see that Orko working in the darker and more epic MYP show? I certainly couldn't.

    A lot of people don't like "comic relief" characters, but in many cases like Snarf and Orko--also Jar Jar--I happen to love them.

    Orko seemed to have that "security blanket" feel to him; and I always described him as offering a "childish theme to a very serious situation", which is why I always loved him as much as I do.

    Thing is, the Filmation show was far more comical than MYP, and a lot of people see it as incredibly corny too.

    Now, I personally see MOTUC trying to be even more epic than MYP...and again, I just don't know that the Filmation Orko would fit very well into this new canon.

    It would be like putting Silver Age Commissioner Gordon and Chief O'Hara into the modern Batman canon; it just wouldn't work.

    But one other thing I have to say about Orko: I remember a comic cover from an '80s MOTU issue showing Orko attempting to destroy Hordak, and He-Man trying to convince him to stop, cause he would be destroyed in the process as well. Orko appears to be really powerful on that cover...a level of powerful that he otherwise appears to have lost from leaving his dimension.

    To top it off, that cover was so awesome, but it made it look like "this $#!+ just got real"; Orko looks beyond ******, and is mere seconds away from blowing the crap out of Hordak; yes, the very Hordak responsible for creating Skeletor.

    So the whole childhood innocence feel of Orko kind of went out the window with that comic, or at least so it would appear, as I've never actually read it.

    The point I'm trying to make is that as the story got darker and more mature for an audience that was also growing up, Orko couldn't stay the same; he had to mature with it. I'm not saying he couldn't appeal to kids in some way, but the reason you may feel so attached to him in that light is because you grew up with him. It's just this really nostalgic feeling for the character.

    There's no problem for that...until the story is presented in a darker, more mature light. Then, the corny but funny character doesn't work as well anymore, unless some changes are made to him. Again, it would appear they already started doing that in the mid-late '80s, so this change isn't completely out of nowhere IMO.
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  9. #59
    Master of Dreams Sandman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingRandor82 View Post
    But one other thing I have to say about Orko: I remember a comic cover from an '80s MOTU issue showing Orko attempting to destroy Hordak, and He-Man trying to convince him to stop, cause he would be destroyed in the process as well.

    That's actually a very good issue of the Star/Marvel series called "The Hate Stones". And yeah, Orko nearly gives in to his hate and destroys Hordak single-handed in that, though everything turns out to be fine at the end.

    Orko was generally portrayed as more "serious" in other media, such as the UK annuals and comics, and even the minicomics.

  10. #60
    Rainbow Warrior Irian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Croaker View Post
    But consider this:
    In this new story the overlords of Trolla are the supreme power in the galaxy. They maintain a corps of warriors to 'police' space - the cosmic enforcers. They also have a magic sword with the power of the universe which is given to one warrior - the Cosmic Warrior.
    Some old guys on a planet beg them to leave this most powerful sword on their world for several hundred years because of a prophecy. The overlords agree, getting Zodac in return to be a cosmic enforcer.
    I think you convinced me there, Croaker.

    If this story were about a different, completely new character and not Orko what you described would be an interesting story to me.

    And to be fair to MotUC we probably should admit that it's just us not liking the new version and not a rational critique of a bad character concept.

    Also: With the attitude that it's a new canon that has nothing to do with Filmation it's easy to see that saying "They killed the character" is just wrong. We have him right here, we just have to pop in one of the old DVDs and he's there. No, George Lucas is not ripping your childhood, and Scott Neitlich didn't kill Orko. The past is still there, nothing is gonna change that.

    But then again, I am with Pixel Dan in that I didn't like Orko that much and I (still) don't like the bio because it makes him an important character that cannot be ignored.

  11. #61
    Heroic Master of 200X MegaGearMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    That's actually a very good issue of the Star/Marvel series called "The Hate Stones". And yeah, Orko nearly gives in to his hate and destroys Hordak single-handed in that, though everything turns out to be fine at the end.

    Orko was generally portrayed as more "serious" in other media, such as the UK annuals and comics, and even the minicomics.
    I remember that story. Dre-Elle had boobies.

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  12. #62
    Sunflower Golden Lord josh's Avatar
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    I haven't cared for Orko for ages. However, thanks to this episode, I respect the use of him as a storytelling device much more than I ever have. I still don't care for him but do have new-found respect.

    Also, sorry I'm late with the appendix & notations later than usual again. I got a last minute lettering gig that's kept me busy (and I'm taking a break from, but need to get back to very soon), plus things at the day job have gotten busier and more exciting for me! Back on topic...

    EPISODE 022 (You're here already.)
    Fan Art of the Week: Eamon O'Donoghue Illustration & Design
    Fan Site of the Week: motucfigures.com
    Collectible of the Week: Merchandising > Cups, Glasses, Dishes and Trays > Argentinean Glasses

    Discussion: Eternia (continued from previous episode), Count Marzo, and Orko MOTUC bios.

    Items of Note:



    Quote Originally Posted by RocketPunch View Post
    [...]The actual Classics storyline would be told better in a narrative form, and since there isn't enough room on the cardbacks to do this[...]
    I've actually meaning to do a mock-up of a design that would better accommodate that. Hopefully I can get to it in the next few weeks.


    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    I remember that story. Dre-Elle had boobies.
    Quoted because I'm a fan them (in general, not Dree Elle's).
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  13. #63
    a Muppet of a man...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Croaker View Post
    I do agree with all of this - but the whole tone around here about the bios is very reminiscent of Transformers fandom in the mid 90s when Beast Wars came out. (Look up TRUKK NOT MUNKEY if you're interested) Thank goodness we are being much more civil.
    I hope that's not the tone my post had! I remember that in the mid-90s, and that's not where I was coming from. I was just making an observation about how what I think I expect from a new canon. Honestly, until this bio I had never really given it much thought, but after really thinking about it, I realized that I had expectations of story vs. character that I hadn't really been aware of, until this bio really shook things up more than some of the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    Also: With the attitude that it's a new canon that has nothing to do with Filmation it's easy to see that saying "They killed the character" is just wrong. We have him right here, we just have to pop in one of the old DVDs and he's there. No, George Lucas is not ripping your childhood, and Scott Neitlich didn't kill Orko. The past is still there, nothing is gonna change that.
    Absolutely true! Despite any conversion about what I do or don't like in the bios, and the end of the day I LOVE these toys, and MOTUC Orko is on my shelf, with all his wide-eyed innocence and wonder, just like I remember him from 1983

  14. #64
    Heroic Warrior RocketPunch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    And to be fair to MotUC we probably should admit that it's just us not liking the new version and not a rational critique of a bad character concept.

    Also: With the attitude that it's a new canon that has nothing to do with Filmation it's easy to see that saying "They killed the character" is just wrong. We have him right here, we just have to pop in one of the old DVDs and he's there. No, George Lucas is not ripping your childhood, and Scott Neitlich didn't kill Orko. The past is still there, nothing is gonna change that.
    Of course it doesn't, but I still wouldn't want them to use the MOTUC version of Orko for future stories, like a new movie. The bios remove a vital element of any fantasy story, the younger character that is inspired by the hero's great deeds to become a hero himself. Now they need to create a new character to fill that void left by Orko.

    I grudgingly accepted the changes to He-Ro backstory, as they'd already put King Grayskull in there, but there was absolutely no need to make such drastic alterations to Orko's character.

  15. #65
    Johan Eggink Eterniandreams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    That's actually a very good issue of the Star/Marvel series called "The Hate Stones". And yeah, Orko nearly gives in to his hate and destroys Hordak single-handed in that, though everything turns out to be fine at the end.

    Orko was generally portrayed as more "serious" in other media, such as the UK annuals and comics, and even the minicomics.
    Can I find that cover on the net?

  16. #66
    Heroic Master of 200X MegaGearMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RocketPunch View Post
    Of course it doesn't, but I still wouldn't want them to use the MOTUC version of Orko for future stories, like a new movie. The bios remove a vital element of any fantasy story, the younger character that is inspired by the hero's great deeds to become a hero himself. Now they need to create a new character to fill that void left by Orko.

    I grudgingly accepted the changes to He-Ro backstory, as they'd already put King Grayskull in there, but there was absolutely no need to make such drastic alterations to Orko's character.
    So how about changes nonetheless?

    While Mattel went a little too far on that bio, many fans think Orko is the Jar-Jar Binks of MOTU and he indeed needed less silliness.

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  17. #67
    Warrior of Evolution 13977's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eterniandreams View Post
    Can I find that cover on the net?
    Yes you can:
    http://www.he-man.org/publishing/item.php?id=289
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  18. #68
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    I actually like the idea of the Trollans working as a foil to the more rigid cosmic enforcers.
    And I like the idea of them sending Orko to watch over Adam. As long as Orko doesn't appreciate the scope of his mission, the bio works for me. I'd like to believe that he doesn't understand the scope of his deception.
    Furthermore, even when I was a kid, I imagined that Orko's powers would evolve until he was ready to be an equal partner with He-Man in the final battle--whatever that means.
    I do regret that they ommitted Orko's heroic rescue of Adam as he is introduced to court. The bio makes it seem like that whole incident was staged. bababum...
    But not in my canon.

  19. #69
    Evil Apologist of Mattel Count Marzo's Avatar
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    This was the episode I was waiting for...the Count Marzo bio discussion! It's a shame that Orko's bio discussion had to totally eclipse everything. Well, I guess it's a good thing since no one really has a problem with Count Marzo's bio and Orko's...well...is absolutely terrible. No one even mentioned a thing about Count Marzo in this thread, it's all about Orko the spy.

    -Penny Dreadful is an awesome guest host!

    -I guarantee the WSOD will return for a month that is much more jam packed than this one. Especially one that sub holders will have to order from. Roboto's shoulders detered a lot of people as well. I for one am a little bit of a perfectionist when it comes to my MOTUC so I'm anxiously waiting for a corrected Roboto re-issue.

    -Eamon's art is great, especially that She-Ra which is my favorite work of his! I've had that She-Ra as my desktop wallpaper for a very long time on my desktop pc. It still might be my wallpaper on there, I can't remember since I don't really use my desktop pc that much anymore.

    -I love everyone's multiple personalities and alter ego's too! I'm happy that The Spotlight Spencer Powers gets to turn heel. Being heel is way more fun, it's true! And Penny is hilarious wanting to be in his corner to throw salt in the opponent's eyes. Classic wrestling stuff right there. Mr. Fuji style! I enjoyed Pixel Dan's...err I mean Spencer Powers's recent review on PCN for that WWE title belt. That was a kinda heel-ish performance. Being a bad guy is definitely way more fun.

    -I don't really dig most of the MOTUC storyline with all these sword halves, cloned stuff, etc... so I don't really have a comment on that stuff. I simply ignore the stuff that I don't approve of, is confusing, or just plain overdone. (ie Evil-Lyn freeing everything)

    -Count Marzo's bio is one of their good ones. No complaints here. Just wish they had Filmation rights so they could throw a hint of Filmation Count Marzo's history in there. Barely anyone even remembers him from Filmation til I school them on it. I'm suprised they didn't mention Mekaneck in there as his arch enemy. That is the main thing that the Filmation and MYP forms of Count Marzo share imo. Maybe it was too early for Mekaneck to be mentioned in his bio? Or maybe Count Marzo is just too bad ass nowdays for even mentioning Mekaneck in there. You guys also seem to like Count Marzo for many of the same reasons I have for so long.

    -Can anyone explain how Count Marzo is like our Boba Fett? I don't know anything about Star Wars. Val mentions that whenever Count Marzo comes up. Also very interesting what Emiliano mentioned about the symbol on Marzo's Amulet in the cartoon. Like he said, he would know more than most since he's the artist and would notice something like that. I'm going to have to look into that as well and rewatch the MYP episodes one of these days.

    -lol @ the praise for Orko's real name. That's about the best thing about the bio. Like Pixel Dan, I'm not a real big Orko fan either, but I feel he is a very recognizable and important character that most people remember from MOTU. I feel bad for people that really like Orko a lot like Emiliano. Hilarious listening to you guys discuss this bio though. I just think it completely sucks. This is just one of those bios that I completely ignore. I can't wait to listen to everyone's voice messages about this bio. Does anyone even like Orko's bio?

    Anyways, great episode! A very entertaining one for me at least with Count Marzo's bio and the abomination that is Orko's. Penny Dreadful needs to be a guest host on there again too, she did a great job and I agree with many of her views on MOTU! No offense to Eamon though, he's also a blast to listen to. At least he got to be the artist of the week on this episode he was absent from.
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  20. #70
    Johan Eggink Eterniandreams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 13977 View Post
    Thanks!
    That is the Orko I want!

  21. #71
    Warrior of Evolution 13977's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Marzo View Post

    -Can anyone explain how Count Marzo is like our Boba Fett? I don't know anything about Star Wars. Val mentions that whenever Count Marzo comes up.
    The Boba Fett comparison refers to a character that doesn't have much screen time and we know very little about but for some reason they are a huge fan favourite.
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  22. #72
    Master of Dreams Sandman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 13977 View Post
    The Boba Fett comparison refers to a character that doesn't have much screen time and we know very little about but for some reason they are a huge fan favourite.
    No no no, Count Marzo wasn't Boba Fett.

    Count Marzo had dialogue.

  23. #73
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    What I like about Marzo (and there's room enough in the bio for it) is that he's a character that can catch some of the inconsistencies of the rest of the bios without messing him up as a character--and maybe even enriching him.
    For instance, the charge of racism against Miro and maybe even Randor might have stemmed from a little Marzo manipulation. He was clearly trying to bring their family down.
    Evil-Lyn's betraying the Faceless One, who was probably an old rival of Marzo's may have been the result of the right words spoken at the right time.
    Even Keldor's discovery of Hordak, reintroducing ancient magic into Eternia, may have been a convenient discovery, the result of research that Marzo "left" behind.
    I mean, the elders stripped him of his power, but not his knowledge. Surely he wouldn't have been polite enough to just shrug and give up for all those years.
    What do you think?

  24. #74
    Warrior of Evolution 13977's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    No no no, Count Marzo wasn't Boba Fett.

    Count Marzo had dialogue.
    So did Fett, granted it was only a line or two "He's no good to me dead!"
    But I get what your saying
    That is the comparison Val is on about though
    MOTUC NA Most Wanted: Darius, Kayo, Vizar, Hoove, Lizorr

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    Trade my Red Stone He-Ro Staff for a Green one
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  25. #75
    Heroic Warrior He-Man123's Avatar
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    I guess I'm in the minority and maybe it makes me less "sophisticated" or something, but I do like the Orko bio.

    It DID make me like the character more. In fact, I didn't like him when I was little. The new bio makes me appreciate him more.
    Last edited by He-Man123; October 25, 2010 at 09:45am.
    "I SHALL WARN YOU BUT ONCE, EVIL ONE--SPEAK TO ME THE TRUTH 'ERE MY BATTLE AXE FINDS A PLACE TO REST 'TWIXT YOUR FOWL EYES!" -He-Man.

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