Did Filmation Really Cause MOTU To Stop Being About Sword & Sorcery?

[Steph]

True but some MOTU fans feel that He-Man and his pals will never be true fantasy/sword & sorcery archetypes unless their blades are dripping with blood after battle. That is another charge levied against Filmation.

Well I am not in the bloody gore camp. I just like a little more physical violence than punching someone into a mud puddle.

Agree with the gore camp though for different reasons. Except for the early mini comic, MOTU can never be "true fantasy/sword & sorcery" because the character assortment is too ala-cart. Not being pure fantasy is not an insult or a slam- sci-fi fantasy is just as cool when done right.

He-Man almost always only fought the villains that were toys.

Hate to be snarky, but it was a 30min toy commercial.

MOTU can have barbarian action and feeling without having boobs and gore.

I agree- done by a talent crew- the barbarian version could be done in kid friendly cartoon form. No gutter is needed.

[Mr. Shokoti]

Hate to be snarky, but it was a 30min toy commercial.

I meant in the mini-comics not Filmation(although Filmation was less a toy commercial than Sunbow or MYP; not only did the designs often stray far away from the toy designs they even turned down some of the toys like Stinkor). Some people act as if He-Man was killing people left & right in them until Filmation neutered the franchise.

I agree- done by a talent crew- the barbarian version could be done in kid friendly cartoon form. No gutter is needed.

I feel Filmation did just that. Obviously He-Man couldn't cut any villains with it, but he always used his sword as well as his strength like any other barbarian would.

Except for the early mini comic, MOTU can never be "true fantasy/sword & sorcery" because the character assortment is too ala-cart.

This was in the very first mini-comic...



No traditional fantasy or sword & sorcery story is going to feature someone riding a flying metal vehicle.

[Steph]

I feel Filmation did just that. Obviously He-Man couldn't cut any villains with it, but he always used his sword as well as his strength like any other barbarian would.

Okay- I am confused. What exactly is your definition of sword and sorcery, fantasy, sci-fi fantasy, and sci- fi cause I don't think we are using the same definition here.

[MegaGearMax]

I feel Filmation did just that. Obviously He-Man couldn't cut any villains with it, but he always used his sword as well as his strength like any other barbarian would.

Thundarr did that and was even more of a barbarian than He-Man was. They also used unearthed vehicles--until they crashed...

[Mr. Shokoti]

Okay- I am confused. What exactly is your definition of sword and sorcery, fantasy, sci-fi fantasy, and sci- fi cause I don't think we are using the same definition here.

I never said sci-fi. I've been going by what I've read in the past. The descriptions usually say that MOTU was a "sword & sorcery" or "fantasy" storyline before Filmation made it more sci-fi & superhero like. I was pointing out that the sci-fi elements were always there and giving He-Man a civilian identity doesn't scream superhero unless you are already familiar with that genre.

Thundarr did that and was even more of a barbarian than He-Man was. They also used unearthed vehicles--until they crashed...

Other than riding a horse, which is traditionally what a barbarian would ride, I disagree that Thundarr is more barbarian than He-Man. You can say his show didn't have as much humor or characters you might hate(like Widgets or Orko) as Filmation's did, but I don't agree otherwise.

[Spikewolfe]

I strongly agree with Sandman and Baena. I also feel that filmation really lightened MOTU, which I didn't like. I liked how Eternia looked and felt on the vehicles/creatures/playsets box art, and in the first four mini-comics. Even the early merchandising managed to get the feel correct. I really loved the early MOTU coloring books for that! I liked how the swords were actually used as swords are meant to be used (yet without blood and gore) and how Eternia was post-apocolyptic. It was darker and more mysterious then filmation. I liked how different characters were part of different tribes or people - not an organized kingdom - Man-At-Arms being a great example.

[MegaGearMax]

Other than riding a horse, which is traditionally what a barbarian would ride, I disagree that Thundarr is more barbarian than He-Man. You can say his show didn't have as much humor or characters you might hate(like Widgets or Orko) as Filmation's did, but I don't agree otherwise.

Thundarr acted a LOT more hardcore than He-Man did. He-Man LOOKED like a barbarian, but it was only a guise. He was really a Prince underneath who lived in a palace. Thundarr, Ariel and Ookla never stayed in the same spot.

[Steph]

I never said sci-fi.

See, now I know were are misunderstand each other. I know you are not claiming sci-fi, I am.

I've been going by what I've read in the past. The descriptions usually say that MOTU was a "sword & sorcery" or "fantasy" storyline before Filmation made it more sci-fi & superhero like.

I chalk that up to marketing. Marketing is not always truthful, or more likely the case Mattel was using an easy to understand term even it if wasn't totally correct.

For me, this is how I think of the MOTU properties:

Mini comic MOTU: sword & sorcery /fantasy with a touch of sci-fi tech

Filmation MOTU: Sci-fi fantasy- with emphasis on the fantasy. It has a little of everything (super- heroes are generally a sub classification of sci-fi). Because of the age it was written for, I feel it also has some fairytale undertones.

Filmation POP: Sci-fi fantasy- with emphasis on the sci-fi. It has a little of everything. Because of the age it was written for, I feel it also has some fairytale undertones.

That being said, I agree with your original premise- Filmation did change the original concept from mostly pure fantasy, to a sci-fantasy hybrid when they made it more kid friendly.

[Mr. Shokoti]

Thundarr acted a LOT more hardcore than He-Man did.

Hardcore? It was a cartoon made for kids and his best friend was a Wookie ripoff.

Thundarr, Ariel and Ookla never stayed in the same spot.

Neither do gypsies or hobos.

That being said, I agree with your original premise- Filmation did change the original concept from mostly pure fantasy, to a sci-fantasy hybrid when they made it more kid friendly.

OK, but that's the opposite of what my opinion is. I stated in my first post that I feel MOTU was never very sword & sorcery to begin with and if anyone changed it from that, it was Mattel, not Filmation.

[MegaGearMax]

Hardcore? It was a cartoon made for kids and his best friend was a Wookie ripoff.

I said acted. Thundarr made threats like "Feel Thundarr's wrath!" and had a battlecry, he didn't kill anyone, but he acted far more warrior-like than Filmation He-Man did.

[Neal1972]

I think context is very important here, because those who discovered Motu prior to Filmation will undoubtedly have a different perspective of the Filmation era as opposed to those who discovered Motu via the cartoon.

I agree with the opinion that the swords and sorcery element was not taken away by Filmation. The 'feel' of Motu was changed from the earlier days, but the overall theme and context was relatively consistent overall.
But what MGM said bears saying again, in that many elements were altered or simplified to appeal more to children.

That in itself wasn't neccesarily a bad thing, in fact without Filmation it's highly doubtful Motu would have ever become the phenomenon it was (is?) but at the same time it did leave many longtime fans - fans who were used to a more dark look, mood and feel - feeling disgruntled, to be honest. I know I was.

Even if you compare the DC comics to say, the Marvel comics of a later vintage and you'll see there is a big shift in the way the two respective comics were handled.
The DC comics were fairly serious and had a more mature look to them, but the Marvel stuff read like a glorified toy ad, and if memory serves, the stories were also fairly simple.

Obviously that's got nothing to do with Filmation but there was that shift again away from the origins of Motu to something more childlike and simple, and for better or worse Filmation played a big part in that.
But hey, Filmation did more for Motu than any other era I think. I'm not complaining - much

[MegaGearMax]

Filmation to He-Man is like what the Adam West Batman, the Lynda Carter Wonder Woman, the Bill Bixby Hulk or the Fred Wolf Ninja Turtles did for those franchises.

Imagine the fans who were reading and enjoying those comics before those shows aired? Those are the Pre-Filmation Era fans.

[Croaker]

If Filmation did anything right, I'm glad it took MotU out of that stupid "post apocalyptic" setting the early mini comics had created.

Disagree entirely. I like the post-apocalyptic setting, and think is says volumes about the time in which it was created.
It also places MOTU with a different kind of story.

I also feel that it better explains why there are technological elements and sword and sorcery side-by-side.

[Steph]

OK, but that's the opposite of what my opinion is. I stated in my first post that I feel MOTU was never very sword & sorcery to begin with and if anyone changed it from that, it was Mattel, not Filmation.

LOL. I give up! I was using your title of the thread as the premise- not that it was your opinion. Since I am failing to articulate my self well in this thread- I'll leave.

[MegaGearMax]

OK, but that's the opposite of what my opinion is. I stated in my first post that I feel MOTU was never very sword & sorcery to begin with and if anyone changed it from that, it was Mattel, not Filmation.

I agree. The only thing Filmation is guilty of doing is toning down the hardcore elements for kids and television (the DC comics had the hardcore element intact, with the new canon).

Like I said earlier, the times were changing and Mattel morphed MOTU to fit within those times. Barbarians weren't "In" anymore, like they were in 1982-1985 when sword and sorcery was a dominant genre. Cyborgs (Rio-Blast, Extendar, Snout Spout, Dragstor, Rotar) and Transforming (Rokkon, Stonedar, Meterorbs) were the new things.

[hauke]

For me YES. It is not about the sci-fi elements. - Even a classic Conan tale features him climbing a tower that turns out to be a spaceship. - It is about the mood. Sword and Sorcery is always very raw, dark, mysterious and violent in content. At the beginning MOTU was very dark and mysterious. In fact the artwork on Castle Grayskull used to scare me as a kid. But it was also this darkness that attracted me to the world of MOTU.
When Filmation came along they totally killed that mood by adding cute characters, bright colors, giving He-Man a secret identity and so on...

For me the first Minicomis were a serious sword and sorcery setting that could have become a true fantasy classic while the filmation stuff was a fairy tale world suitable for children. Business wise it was probably smart to go the fairy tale route but I still miss the time when MOTU was scary and mysterious.

[tmthor]

To me I always liked the original Mini comics & the DC 3 part mini better than Filmation. I lik

Marlana , Prince Adam & a talking Battle cat (I think BC's alter ego as well just I don't remember him be ing named) too showed up in the DC mini series & that predates Filmation by at least a year.

Also look at the other toys at the time (besides Star Wars & Gi Joe) alot were of the Fantasy/post apocolyptic genre
(And yes some were wanabes/KO's of the Masters)
Crystar
Thundercats
Dungeons & Dragons
Dragon Riders of the Styx
Sectaurs (A little while later but same genre)
Warrior Beasts
Remco's DC Characters (Warlord, Arak & Hercules)
Arco's Lost World
Remco's Conan
Golden Girl

[PIMPS ADAM]

For me YES. It is not about the sci-fi elements. - Even a classic Conan tale features him climbing a tower that turns out to be a spaceship. - It is about the mood. Sword and Sorcery is always very raw, dark, mysterious and violent in content. At the beginning MOTU was very dark and mysterious. In fact the artwork on Castle Grayskull used to scare me as a kid. But it was also this darkness that attracted me to the world of MOTU.
When Filmation came along they totally killed that mood by adding cute characters, bright colors, giving He-Man a secret identity and so on...

For me the first Minicomis were a serious sword and sorcery setting that could have become a true fantasy classic while the filmation stuff was a fairy tale world suitable for children. Business wise it was probably smart to go the fairy tale route but I still miss the time when MOTU was scary and mysterious.

Amen brother.

[Reboot]

Filmation to He-Man is like what the Adam West Batman, the Lynda Carter Wonder Woman, the Bill Bixby Hulk or the Fred Wolf Ninja Turtles did for those franchises.

Imagine the fans who were reading and enjoying those comics before those shows aired? Those are the Pre-Filmation Era fans.

Have you *read* any 50s Batman comics? The Adam West series resulted in the comics being brought back down to Earth, if anything! (I'm not joking. 50s Batman was very low-rent sci-fi. Plus, Alfred had been killed off as a sop to the "Seduction of the Innocent" mob, and was ultimately brought back to tie in with the TV show. Once the show was gone, the campiness disappeared for the 70s - most Bruce Timm B:TAS comic adaptations came from 70s - and became downright grim in the 80s)

As for the Hulk... the TV show had no influence on the comics - indeed, the path of the comic book from #272 onward was directly away from the TV show's premise, not toward it (Bruce Banner got control of the Hulk, then went away entirely for the mindless Hulk to be sent on an interdimensional mystery tour, then came back to Earth to be bodily split from the Hulk, then they remerged for the Hulk to become gray, articulate and get a job as a Las Vegas legbreaker while Banner messed the Hulk's life up, then they merged into a permanently green Hulk with Banner's face who became head of a secret organisation.... I simplify somewhat, but it wasn't based on the TV "David Banner" Hulk in the slightest.)

[MegaGearMax]

Have you *read* any 50s Batman comics? The Adam West series resulted in the comics being brought back down to Earth, if anything! (I'm not joking. 50s Batman was very low-rent sci-fi. Plus, Alfred had been killed off as a sop to the "Seduction of the Innocent" mob, and was ultimately brought back to tie in with the TV show. Once the show was gone, the campiness disappeared for the 70s - most Bruce Timm B:TAS comic adaptations came from 70s - and became downright grim in the 80s)

As for the Hulk... the TV show had no influence on the comics - indeed, the path of the comic book from #272 onward was directly away from the TV show's premise, not toward it (Bruce Banner got control of the Hulk, then went away entirely for the mindless Hulk to be sent on an interdimensional mystery tour, then came back to Earth to be bodily split from the Hulk, then they remerged for the Hulk to become gray, articulate and get a job as a Las Vegas legbreaker while Banner messed the Hulk's life up, then they merged into a permanently green Hulk with Banner's face who became head of a secret organisation.... I simplify somewhat, but it wasn't based on the TV "David Banner" Hulk in the slightest.)

I was talking more about Batman's darker origins or Hulk's more military origins than what was going on in their books at the time. I'm way more familiar with the Hulk than Batman.

[hauke]

I was talking more about Batman's darker origins or Hulk's more military origins than what was going on in their books at the time. I'm way more familiar with the Hulk than Batman.

I think your Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles analogy works best. That comic had quite a serious tone back before the cartoon and the toys started.

[Lay Ze-Man]

Filmation to He-Man is like what the Adam West Batman, the Lynda Carter Wonder Woman, the Bill Bixby Hulk or the Fred Wolf Ninja Turtles did for those franchises.

Contemporary comic discussions aside, this Batman analogy is pretty much how every non-diehard MotU fan views Filmation:

Fun and great for kids of its day, but with much too high of a camp and silly factor to be an accurate representation of the property.

[Darth Latveria]

Like others have stated, I think that what Filmation took away from MOTU was a lot of the grim and grittiness of it. MOTU, at least in the mini comics (I am unfamiliar with the other comics pre-dating Filmation), started off as a much darker and more foreboding concept. Filmation took away much of that and lightened it up.

However, although I am not a fan of Filmation as I no longer find it entertaining, in its defense I must admit that as a five year old child the cartoon did feel as if it had that sort of darkness and mystery. Although I can't remember specifics of the show from that time, I do remember the impressions it left me with. And while this is no longer the impression I get from it, at the time the show came off as exciting and somewhat mysterious in ways (such as the mysteries related to Castle Grayskull).

[Mr. Shokoti]

Since the dark skies of the vintage box art is often brought up, I wonder if that was just the style of art & coloring that Mattel wanted, or if that initially was supposed to go hand-in-hand with the post-apocalyptic origins of MOTU. Although, having said that, Filmation didn't exactly drop that look for as much as they are blamed for changing things in MOTU.

I think context is very important here, because those who discovered Motu prior to Filmation will undoubtedly have a different perspective of the Filmation era as opposed to those who discovered Motu via the cartoon.

While that's possible, that's not a guarantee. I was with MOTU from the beginning(ie. before Filmation) and yet I still am a huge Filmation fan. I know of others in the same boat. Sure, there are also those who were around pre-Filmation who despise what that animation studio did with MOTU just like there are those who were born after Filmation had ended their MOTU & POP shows but still came to love it in reruns or on VHS & DVD.

I was talking more about Batman's darker origins or Hulk's more military origins than what was going on in their books at the time. I'm way more familiar with the Hulk than Batman.

These darker origins?





These are from Golden Age books made decades before Adam West donned the cowl.

[MegaGearMax]

These darker origins?

These are from Golden Age books made decades before Adam West donned the cowl.

Yup. Nothing is infallible, Shokoti.