Roast Gooble Dinner - Episode 028 Discussion!

[mjharwood]

I posted this on the Buzz-Off review forum and was told it might be good to post here (and I've added a few extra details for clarity):

I think the biggest thing with "200x" heads isn't that they are 200x (or "modern"), but more that they are tooling two unique heads... which is why they said Stinkor would likely include a second; his "vintage" head is a straight up repaint of Mer-Man, leaving tooling dollars for a head. Whiplash, Buzz-Off, Grizzlor... they all required unique heads just to represent their vintage look. Considering how much detail goes into a head, I can imagine that they wouldn't want to double that cost on a figure.

I read an article a week or two ago about Mattel's CEO and this new Monster High line of dolls they are producing. If the article is even half true in their representation of the man's normally conservative approach to spending and spreading out toy lines, I can totally understand why this line isn't giving (some) fans what they want out of it... Apparently, the man likes to manage every penny and only spend on 100% absolute sure things... which, despite what we supporters on the outside of the company's walls may think, MOTUC may not fit into from a business perspective yet in the man's eyes. And it's not that there's necessarily anything wrong with this from a business perspective (many businesses are more successful by playing it safe), but it can be annoying and frustrating to fans.

Check the article out for yourself and tell me you can't see why the line is "holding back"... http://www.usatoday.com/money/compan...ceo24_CV_N.htm

[KingRandor82]

I posted this on the Buzz-Off review forum and was told it might be good to post here (and I've added a few extra details for clarity):

I think the biggest thing with "200x" heads isn't that they are 200x (or "modern"), but more that they are tooling two unique heads... which is why they said Stinkor would likely include a second; his "vintage" head is a straight up repaint of Mer-Man, leaving tooling dollars for a head. Whiplash, Buzz-Off, Grizzlor... they all required unique heads just to represent their vintage look. Considering how much detail goes into a head, I can imagine that they wouldn't want to double that cost on a figure.

I read an article a week or two ago about Mattel's CEO and this new Monster High line of dolls they are producing. If the article is even half true in their representation of the man's normally conservative approach to spending and spreading out toy lines, I can totally understand why this line isn't giving (some) fans what they want out of it... Apparently, the man likes to manage every penny and only spend on 100% absolute sure things... which, despite what we supporters on the outside of the company's walls may think, MOTUC may not fit into from a business perspective yet in the man's eyes. And it's not that there's necessarily anything wrong with this from a business perspective (many businesses are more successful by playing it safe), but it can be annoying and frustrating to fans.

Check the article out for yourself and tell me you can't see why the line is "holding back"... http://www.usatoday.com/money/compan...ceo24_CV_N.htm

And y'know? There's something else I was thinking about:

if it's true about the current CEO, to him the vintage heads are definitely a sure thing, as well....they're based on one of their top selling boys toy lines of all time.

The MO2K heads, while in several cases I do prefer them( see Buzz Off, and Whiplash), I can understand his hesitance seeing as how the line didn't do as well at retail.

Even Val has admitted that he--much like I--doesn't really think the MO2K line would've done anywhere near the success of the vintage line.

I remember suggesting it might've done like a 1/4 of the popularity of Ben 10...maybe.

To this guy, that's not a sure thing.


Do I fully agree with the decision? Well, to be fair I think there're other, better ways to go about it. With Buzz Off, they could have just made a more serious-looking head. Even though I'm fine with the Grizzlor decision, they could've just put the faceplate on the vintage head. And oh my god how I wish they would've painted King Hiss's hood/crown gold.

I've already mentioned what the Horsemen said about Buzz Off; they didn't want to make him with a more "ferocious" face because--in their words--he's a good guy. And I still said they could've done something more with it. I know their work, and I was definitely a tad disappointed.

Nonetheless, that's why I think the decision that was made was...well, made.

I will definitely push, though, for MO2K heads if that's what it takes to get what I want made!

[Lay Ze-Man]

Well first off, glad to see my uncontested posts in the last Gooble thread have been somewhat validated.
(Pun intended. )
But yeah, good to know I wasn't just talking into a well.

And sorry to have to get this out, because it was a great episode with LOTS to comment on otherwise.

No offense, but these "official" explanations are all nonsense.
The "cohesive look" you're after? You've got it.
It's called "The 4H designing and sculpting every figure."
Boom. Done. Next.

You already have cohesion. The notion that Marzo was so offensively "hyper anime" styled, while was Carnivus perfectly fine is nothing short of laughable.

And as has been said, the branding thing just simply doesn't hold water.
Scott, you say "for a branding purpose" but you don't even explain it.
You typed quite a bit there, but said almost nothing.
Everyone knows the 200x line is done, and NO ONE is requesting its return.

Honestly, I think the "200x thing" is a red herring that we all need to move away from.

What I think most fans want is a combination of the most bang for their buck, with the element of something to look forward to.

When the MOTUC figures are nothing but 4H sculpts of the vintage figures, you're talking about a boring line.
A pretty line, sure. But a boring one. And a line devoid of surprises.
Cause sorry, Sy-Klone coming out slightly before Stinkor is NOT my idea of a surprise.

And Scott, you still keep getting your terminology confused.
"The current look is the Classics style."
This means nothing with regard to 200x design elements.
The 4H have already proven that 200x design elements can be interpreted successfully in the Classics style.

But as I say, I think 200x is a red herring.
Something to hide behind so, simply put, Mattel isn't on the hook for investing more of OUR money into the figures.

I think that's more what the problem is.
We want variety, we want display options.

We want to feel like our $20 for a non-licensed, wholly-Mattel-owned property that sells out EVERY SINGLE ITEM is buying more than just a new bio.

As I said in the other thread, I think 200x design elements are the "go to" elements for most collectors because it's the common reference point, but by no means do collectors need 200x elements only to be what makes a figure fresh, exciting, and worthy of our purchase. It's NEW stuff in general that does that.

So let's all just stop saying "200x this or that" and start saying:
"We want NEW elements not included on the vintage figure."

Because whether it's MAA's weapons rack or Scare Glow's reliquary or Moss Man's 200x head (yes, it's a 200x head, 100%), I don't care WHERE it comes from, I just want it. And I want it with EVERY FIGURE.

We already know the figures are being produced in hugely greater numbers than they were initially, so we know that extra new tooling is possible. This is just Mattel being cheap.

And to that point, I think most of us would be more understanding of a little more honesty. We all know that repaints and refreshes are the name of the toy game, collector online exclusive line or not. We get that. We're smart. We've been in the adult collector game longer than Mattel has. We get it.

So if it's about selling us the same parts with a new head down the road when you need a "cheap" figure to sell us, then just say that! But the lame explanations about stylings and retired looks and branding just flat-out do no make sense for this collector line, and it's really getting old to hear them recycled and regurgitated again and again.

Branding explanations don't fit.
"That's the way the vintage line did it" explanations don't fit.
Let's hear something that fits. For once!

We fans can listen to "I'm a huge 200x fan too!" all day long, but when the end result looks like someone just wants to recreate their childhood toys while literally putting their own personal stamp on it, it all just doesn't wash.

We want some show of faith by Mattel that our investment is being recognized.
We have been told since the beginning of the line "Have faith, we're working on it, please hang in there..."
And we've held strong, spending thousands and thousands, while relatively little has improved.
And while WE have remained unwavering, Mattel somehow sees it fit to take away.

Sorry to any fans that see this as dead-horse-beating.
Or whining, or whatever.
And no offense to anyone who doesn't feel like reading my posts.
But this is not going away . . .

[gbagok]

If we do 200X heads they will be with a figure. After all, we need to save things for key refreshes down the line.
TG

In that case you should create a generic body (or even two, one good and one evil) that comes only with extra heads accessories like maybe three total, counting the one he's wearing in package. I know a lot of us would like a helmet-less Zodak, but I get the feeling he sold so slowly that it'll be a loooooong time before he even is considered. However, I suspect a generic head-master that comes with several extra heads including his would probably sell faster than another Zodak.

[Croaker]

Regarding Zodac and Wun-Dar: Zodac becoming a cosmic guardian does not have to happen in the last 100 years, actually if you put the bios into a timeline it seems highly unlikely, because we know

Yes - Wun-Dar did not become Zodac.
As Irian pointed out the deal for Zodac to leave eternia in exchange for the sword staying there happened about 500 years ago (shortly after Grayskull died.)
Wun-Dar lived 100 years ago.

It's a nice idea, but definitely a no-go in the classics story.

[JVS3]

...until time travel comes into the story.
Watch out!

We had a bit of that in the MV comics too.
I left that up to Emiliano to figure out, though. Time travel always makes my head hurt.

[SCB]

Val, do you guys plan on covering the TRU He-Man? I think he's actually the best painted He-Man out there. Eye brows are perfect.

[Minion]

In the case of Grizzlor, why not do him with the other head, repainted clothes and new weapons/accessoires as something like "Jugularian Elder" bonus figure?
Buzz-Off's 200X head? "Spelean Warrior" bonus figure with similiar modifications.

I couldn't agree more. This is why I've bought extra figures of characters with second heads. In my mind (and in my display) they are completely separate characters.
I think packaging them as such is a terrific idea and a good compromise.

There are so many characters still to do where 200x heads and influences are essential in my opinion. Sy-klone is the latest and most severe casualty of this for me, and the lack of anything except his solar ring has merely replicated th blandness of the original toy (just my opinion, I realise he has his fans). Of course i'll still buy him, but Mattel lose out another 1 or 2 sales had he come with a 200x head and other parts.

On a final note - great episode guys. Very funny and entertaining. Keep up the great work and roll on the next gooble dinner!

[JVS3]

Val, do you guys plan on covering the TRU He-Man? I think he's actually the best painted He-Man out there. Eye brows are perfect.

There is a lot of He-Man talk in episode 029 coming on Wed.
But we haven't talked TRU He-Man yet.
I don't have him (well, I don't have any of them except Orko/Prince Adam).
I'm not sure if the other guys have him or not.

[Croaker]

...until time travel comes into the story.
Watch out!

We had a bit of that in the MV comics too.
I left that up to Emiliano to figure out, though. Time travel always makes my head hurt.

Fair enough!

So then we could have Wun-Dar wearing armour from his underground city in 100 BA (before Adam), armour which is inspired or modelled on that of the heroes of the past (Zodac/k). Then after his many adventures the Goddess wisks him to the past (circa 530 BA) where a more mature Wund-dar joins the council of elders, hiding his face under a mask -either to hide hideous scars or so that preternia He-man (also in disguise) won't recognize him. Calls himself Zodac.

That way we get a nice little paradox about the armour. (being designed based on itself.)
Why not? There's lots of crazy stuff going on already.

[Inhibitor]

99.9% of people would not have noticed if 200x was phased out quietly.

Yup. Just like nobody here discovered the reversed shoulders on He-Man and Roboto... This board is world renowned for our obsessive powers of observation.

I submit to the court that this statement is false.

Let me see if I can clear up this confusion about "no 200X" in the online MOTUC line.

Scott, I have to admire you for this! Unfortunately, the company's position has painted you into a corner.

There is one major loophole here: If like you say, 200x is off the table, then why are we still getting weapons, armor, and otherwise 200x influenced accessories? To this you might respond with "those are elements of 200x" or "Classic-ized 200x elements" and not the verboten "200x style".

Here's the thing about 200x: All of its elements are stylistic interpretations of the vintage line.

As I said on the show last week, this was done for a branding purpose. Eamon is correct in his extrapolation.

I'm sorry, but was it apparent that you weren't getting enough adult collector interest to justify taking away such a rich and creative resource?

This was supposed to be a grab bag of all that is and was awesome about MOTU. The added "vintage" aspect was the use of a more muscular buck and the reuse of parts thereof. Do we need to beat it to death though? If you're serious about making the best possible brand of MOTU, you will need to bring in the best of the best. 200x might not have nailed everything perfectly for everyone, but you have to admit that 4H brought some fantastic creative solutions to the table. Shame on you for not taking more advantage of that!

We won't ever agree I guess. There is absolutely no good reason to leave out the unquestionably aesthetically superior 200x-styled Buzz-Off head if you had the budget for it. If you don't like the 4H's work on that, why are you asking them to sculpt this one?

We know there are fans of 200X designs and I imagine in time (and not anytime in the immediate future) 200X heads will be "Classic-ized" much like Whiplash. But not in the current online line as this look is retired. (things can and do come out of retirement if the timing works and the situation calls for it).

The situation where people are getting tired of simple retreads and stop buying up subscriptions? You're really going to have to work it to keep this up for another 5 years! Again, I'd like to point out that you have not retired 200x but have only said no to the heads. As stated, this is purely arbitrary and it makes your position all the more untenable!

I still don't follow this.
It's an adult line for collectors sold online.
And the 200x elements thus far IMO have worked just fine.
In the 4H we trust!

Truth.

[Fighting Foe Man]

Regarding Zodac and Wun-Dar: Zodac becoming a cosmic guardian does not have to happen in the last 100 years, actually if you put the bios into a timeline it seems highly unlikely, because we know

A) the Elders made a secret bargain with Overlords of the Timeless Dimension of Trolla that one member of the Elders has to join the Cosmic Enforcers in order to being allowed to keep the Sword of He on Eternia. So, Zodac has to become a cosmic guardian (and retain his physical form) before the appearance of Vikor, who battled the remaining Snake Men.

B) Zodak took the place of Zodac in the Council when Zodac left Eternia. And only after that he trapped King-Hiss. So unless you assume the Snake-Men were banished just 100 years ago ...

You are totally correct. I got the timeline for Zodac completely mixed up for some reason (I blame my 6 month old waking me up at all hours of the night). I realized my mistake a few hours after I sent the email in to the show.

By the way, thank you so much to whoever it is that is responsible for adding the emails to the show; I was quite delighted to hear my email question on the show this morning, and even more exstatic when it wasn't shot down for its obviously flawed timeline. Thanks again guys!

Fair enough!

So then we could have Wun-Dar wearing armour from his underground city in 100 BA (before Adam), armour which is inspired or modelled on that of the heroes of the past (Zodac/k). Then after his many adventures the Goddess wisks him to the past (circa 530 BA) where a more mature Wund-dar joins the council of elders, hiding his face under a mask -either to hide hideous scars or so that preternia He-man (also in disguise) won't recognize him. Calls himself Zodac.

That way we get a nice little paradox about the armour. (being designed based on itself.)
Why not? There's lots of crazy stuff going on already.

That is a fantastic idea, and still lends credence to my original theory. Plus, who doesn't love a good time-twisting tale?

[CarKrash]

Would you like to ……my…..? BERZERKER!

I don’t understand why we need to have one definitive version of each character so parents don’t get confused, but yet we have a quarterly A-List variant slot intended for different versions of the same first character. So when the (hypothetical) parents go to a (hypothetical) store to look for a (hypothetical) He-Man.. they can go through the (hypothetical) pegs and find He-Man, Battle Armor He-Man, He-Man of the North, Savage He-Man, Jungle He-Man.. etc etc (hypothetically). They act like they don’t do 2nd heads.. but they do several versions of the same character. So what’s the difference as far as confused parents are concerned?!

Now, I love the addition of 200X inspired classicized heads on characters like Whiplash… but I can’t see buying a repaint figure with a new head later on down the line. Why can’t each of my figures have the extra head in the original release!? Didn’t we vote for extra heads a long time ago!?

[AKA-DOM]

As Scott said the 200X thing isn`t his decision. Val has said about execs and 200X, for me this is probably not far from the truth. Not just from a Matty point of view, but also from a buyers perspective. Im sure Scott will do what he can, when he can.

With stuff like Transformers and GI Joe, Hasbro are slipping 80`s homages into the movie lines. There are true fans working in these brands, but the majoritys of execs and buyers just care about the bottom line. Its a balancing act, but one we all have to accept.

[Neutro]

If we do 200X heads they will be with a figure. After all, we need to save things for key refreshes down the line.

After MUCH thought on this subject, I honestly believe this would be the best route taken to getting fans 200x inspired Classics figures.

I'm just tired of all these extra heads just layin' around, takin' up minimal space, doin' nuthin'.

No, seriously though, we're gonna buy doubles of figures with multiple looks anyway (e.g. Mer-Man, 2-pack Mer-Man...) so they may as well come with accessories that are 100% useful at all times.

I know a lot of us would like a helmet-less Zodak, but I get the feeling he sold so slowly that it'll be a loooooong time before he even is considered.

I think if he were released again now, he would surely sell out a lot faster.
That was year one, and we are now entering year three, and the line is much more popular at this point. IMHO.