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Thread: Princess of Power in MOTUC - Pros and Cons

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    Sorcerer of Zalesia bcrduke's Avatar
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    Princess of Power in MOTUC - Pros and Cons

    MOD NOTE from JonWes: Hi all, I'm pulling the posts out of the Star Sisters Sold Out thread into it's own to keep that on topic. It seems people have a lot to say about it, so why not make it it's own topic? Just keep it civil and within the board's rules. I can't find another thread exactly about this through search, though I know there has been some in the past. Partly it might just be that it's hard to narrow down searches when some of the main words are "MOTUC" or "POP" or "Princess of Power"





    Quote Originally Posted by Man-E-Toys View Post
    I don't understand why you feel the need to question everyone who doesn't like the Star Sisters. As soon as the first guy called them "awful" you just had to ask why. Can't you just leave it alone and accept other people's opinions? People like and dislike things for different reasons. Do the reasons really matter that much to you? If you must know, I didn't keep them because I don't like their look. I don't collect POP. I find them "girly" and they don't fit in with the rest of my collection.
    .
    The look isn't everyone's thing; I totally get that. But the "girly" thing is a reach. And it is becoming a tiresome comment by the same 5 or 6 people who seem to think they are the majority when it comes to POP characters in general. I get that the SS pack wasn't hugely popular. But polls here and elsewhere will tell you that there is actually a lot of support for the pop characters.

    As for the Star Sisters, Tallstar looks like a retro sci-if space ranger. I'm not sure she's girly. She has purple in her costume, but then so does Skeletor. She has pink hair. That must be it.

    IThis is all beside the point because you don't seem to want to discuss this - you just want to ridicule me for challenging statements on a forum where conversation is supposed to be encouraged, and diversity of opinion, I'd hope, is supposed to be celebrated.

    I don't question everyone the way you say. Sometimes I do, when I feel like challenging a lazy statement. Saying that these figures are "awful" without going into detail is lazy, and as I said, not liking something doesn't necessarily make it awful. It just means you don't like it.

    It is unwise to lump every single person who likes pop into one virtual org account. By saying that I always question people about the star sisters, you seem to be making a mistake: I'm not all the pop fans lol... We aren't all one person, and we all have varied taste.

    This is a toy forum with a focus on all things He-Man & She-Ra. I've been a member here for over ten years. If I want to ask someone why he or she thinks something is awful, I will ask them, and I won't feel badly about that. Nor will I censor myself in order to cater to your personal tastes.

    Block me if you don't like my posts.
    Last edited by bcrduke; April 10, 2013 at 11:23am.
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    I'm going to have to agree with bcrduke here... I haven't seen him jump on anybody that reason that they don't like the Star Sisters. What I do see is a response to a small and very vocal group here on the .org that take every opportunity to use the Star Sisters in favor of eliminating POP and trying to sway general fan decision.
    I accepted people's opinions on the Star Sisters back when it was relevant, but hearing the same old tired opinion over and over again is getting old. Furthermore, the Star Sisters are a rather poor representation of POP as an entire faction, just as Vykron is for the vintage stuff. The pack came out like two years ago, it's not solely responsible for the demise of the line, get over it. POP isn't going anywhere, you're entitled to your opinion, but when the same handful of people state it over and over in an attempt to make it sound like entire fan community feels this way, it's just annoying and childish. One person saying something ten times does not equal the opinion of 10 fans, just one.
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    Heroic Warrior Slave2Evil_Lyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lay Ze-Man View Post
    Maybe here on the boards with its vocal minority, but I don't see how it's even remotely possible that Scorpia would sell more units.
    Scorpia is in the top of the Filmation want lists and polls. Even Eric from the 4H has been chomping at the bit to do Scorpia. I'm willing to bet that she would out sell Clamp Champ.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lay Ze-Man View Post
    I see what you're trying to do...

    But as I said before: "For many out there, PoP in general (and Star Sisters in particular) veers way too much into fairy tale princess or Rainbow Brite territory to make sense being folded into an epic warrior fantasy situation."

    Sy-Klone is in no way Rainbow Brite or fairytale . . .

    He's wacky, kinda Kirby-esque sci-fi superhero.

    For a certain percentage of the fanbase, there's just not much room in MotU to go deeper than a small handful of PoP characters.
    Sy-Klone is just as flashy as any of the GR characters. What makes POP so "fairy tale princess or Rainbrow Brite" the colors, the magic? As I stated Sy-Klone is just as colorful. Skeletor, Evil-Lyn, and The Sorceress are all magic uses just like Castaspella, Shadow Weaver, Glimmer, and Madame Razz. Madame Razz may be seen as goofy but she is no different than Orko, who is a mainstay of the MOTU franchise. Those who only see MOTU as those first for mini comics need to accept the fact that was a failed concept that was dropped. Even the toy line that those comics were released in didn't follow them. MOTU was and will always be a brand built on the toys and the Filmation cartoon. The brand would have been just as strong without the mini comics. The POP world developed by Filmation is no less "epic warrior fantasy" than the MOTU cartoon.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lay Ze-Man View Post
    Like a doll, you mean exactly like a doll. And of course it's all "girly" because they were created solely for little girls.

    So it's never a surprise to me when grown men aren't chomping at the bit for updated versions of girl toys.
    An yet grown men are totally fine with having half naked, muscled up men sitting on their self. I love half naked, muscled up men, you know why, because I'm gay. So this tired old "men don't want girly figures in their collection" is tired and over used. If you're willing to have homoerotic figures, I'm surprised you don't want attractive woman in skin tight costumes with swords on your self. You might need to do some soul searching into the deeper meanings behind that.
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    CRITAcal for MOTUC 2015!! Barezz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slave2Evil_Lyn View Post
    An yet grown men are totally fine with having half naked, muscled up men sitting on their self. I love half naked, muscled up men, you know why, because I'm gay. So this tired old "men don't want girly figures in their collection" is tired and over used. If you're willing to have homoerotic figures, I'm surprised you don't want attractive woman in skin tight costumes with swords on your self. You might need to do some soul searching into the deeper meanings behind that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slave2Evil_Lyn View Post
    Scorpia is in the top of the Filmation want lists and polls. Even Eric from the 4H has been chomping at the bit to do Scorpia. I'm willing to bet that she would out sell Clamp Champ.
    Vintage versus Filmation! The Era Wars™ continue! I think Scorpia will be made in fewer numbers than Clamp Champ. To scare people into buying a 2014 12 month Filmation sub. Just like Shadow Weaver...

    Sy-Klone is just as flashy as any of the GR characters. What makes POP so "fairy tale princess or Rainbrow Brite" the colors, the magic? As I stated Sy-Klone is just as colorful. Skeletor, Evil-Lyn, and The Sorceress are all magic uses just like Castaspella, Shadow Weaver, Glimmer, and Madame Razz. Madame Razz may be seen as goofy but she is no different than Orko, who is a mainstay of the MOTU franchise. Those who only see MOTU as those first for mini comics need to accept the fact that was a failed concept that was dropped. Even the toy line that those comics were released in didn't follow them. MOTU was and will always be a brand built on the toys and the Filmation cartoon. The brand would have been just as strong without the mini comics. The POP world developed by Filmation is no less "epic warrior fantasy" than the MOTU cartoon.
    MOTU was built on that Pre-Filmation premise first. Pre-Filmation never failed, since the toys were popular even with the darker barbarian storyline -- it changed! MOTU shifted to Filmation sensibilities in mid 1983-1984. There were no Adam or Orko beforehand and those are major characters now.

    Filmation still followed that same basic story of the original mini-comics, only they added morals to justify being on the air at all, a secret identity and saturday morning cartoon characters. Filmation might be the reason why most fans are here at all, but there was already a story established that Filmation still followed.

    An yet grown men are totally fine with having half naked, muscled up men sitting on their self. I love half naked, muscled up men, you know why, because I'm gay. So this tired old "men don't want girly figures in their collection" is tired and over used. If you're willing to have homoerotic figures, I'm surprised you don't want attractive woman in skin tight costumes with swords on your self. You might need to do some soul searching into the deeper meanings behind that.
    Man, MOTU has a fanbase that was terrified of Swiftwind being pink. You damn skimpy men don't want girly figures in their collections.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slave2Evil_Lyn View Post
    An yet grown men are totally fine with having half naked, muscled up men sitting on their self. I love half naked, muscled up men, you know why, because I'm gay. So this tired old "men don't want girly figures in their collection" is tired and over used. If you're willing to have homoerotic figures, I'm surprised you don't want attractive woman in skin tight costumes with swords on your self. You might need to do some soul searching into the deeper meanings behind that.
    It's the rockstar issue, men want to be them women want to be with them. This is the problem with many guys and goes into other things people buy. Most guys wanted to be He-man and wanted to be the characters they purchased not be with them.

    This is also seen in the video game industry where players go on about people who play female characters want to be female, when the response is more akin to what you said. I never really wanted to be the characters I purchased I buy characters I like whether they are male or female. But all that to say that is the problem they have.

    Typically exceptions are things like wall art (posters) where the object tends to be very blantantly sexualized. He-man isn't oiled and posed provocatively.
    Last edited by wyldman11; April 10, 2013 at 02:19pm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slave2Evil_Lyn View Post
    An yet grown men are totally fine with having half naked, muscled up men sitting on their self. I love half naked, muscled up men, you know why, because I'm gay. So this tired old "men don't want girly figures in their collection" is tired and over used. If you're willing to have homoerotic figures, I'm surprised you don't want attractive woman in skin tight costumes with swords on your self. You might need to do some soul searching into the deeper meanings behind that.
    And yet some people lack the understanding that not everything has to be sexualized. You know some people collect these out of pure childhood nostalgia and place no sexual value on them. Yay stereotypes! Sorry I don't stare at my toys with my tongue hanging out and think of how attractive they would be. I see barbarian types wearing clothing that is classic fantasy inspired. I can't understand what is so hard about the concept to grasp. Go watch the original She-Ra power books commercial and compare it to a He-Man commercial. It is not hard to see the marketing desires when the commercial has Adora being GROOMED by her friends and Catra is just jealous. "The fate of the world's in the hands of a beautiful girl!" I don't care how pretty someone is when they are charged with saving the world.

    Honestly what I think is getting tired is the entire debate. If you really can't see the difference between Sy-Klone and Perfuma or If you think Clawdeen looks just as ferocious as Battle Cat then we are in completely different dimensions apparently. Jealous Beauty vs Evil Lord of Destruction. Comb weapon vs a Battle Mace. Pretty swan Enchanta vs mechanical horse Stridor. You don't see the differences or you don't want to?

    When someone cannot see the differences between POP and MOTU and have to ask what makes POP so girly, they are obviously looking at the line through a completely different lens. I'm honestly of the opinion that this stupid debate will just go on and on because people will just put blinders on and ask the same questions over and over.

    I like the grittier aspects of MOTU but I also used to enjoy watching Sailor Moon. I would never try and pretend that sailor Moon was not girly. I believe it is ok for men to like some "girly" things and girls to like "boyish" things. Just admit it though and stop trying to make it something that it is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldman11 View Post
    It's the rockstar issue, men want to be them women want to be with them. This is the problem with many guys and goes into other things people buy. Most guys wanted to be He-man and wanted to be the characters they purchased not be with them.

    This is also seen in the video game industry where players go on about people who play female characters want to be female, when the response is more akin to what you said. I never really wanted to be the characters I purchased I buy characters I like whether they are male or female. But all that to say that is the problem they have.

    Typically exceptions are things like wall art (posters) where the object tends to be very blantantly sexualized. He-man isn't oiled and posed provocatively.
    You make some really good points.

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    Last edited by Hordak; April 10, 2013 at 03:55pm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slave2Evil_Lyn View Post
    And yet grown men are totally fine with having half naked, muscled up men sitting on their self. I love half naked, muscled up men, you know why, because I'm gay. So this tired old "men don't want girly figures in their collection" is tired and over used. If you're willing to have homoerotic figures, I'm surprised you don't want attractive woman in skin tight costumes with swords on your self. You might need to do some soul searching into the deeper meanings behind that.
    That's why I collect Transformers. No such worries there!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Judas Hel View Post
    That's why I collect Transformers. No such worries there!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    Until Arcee and Elita-1. And Kiss Players.
    Kiss?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lay Ze-Man View Post
    Yeah, I see all the pink sparkly glittery tassels all over Sy-Klone.

    That you even wonder why someone would consider PoP too far into "fairy tale princess" genre says it all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hordak View Post
    Honestly what I think is getting tired is the entire debate. If you really can't see the difference between Sy-Klone and Perfuma or If you think Clawdeen looks just as ferocious as Battle Cat then we are in completely different dimensions apparently. Jealous Beauty vs Evil Lord of Destruction. Comb weapon vs a Battle Mace. Pretty swan Enchanta vs mechanical horse Stridor. You don't see the differences or you don't want to?

    When someone cannot see the differences between POP and MOTU and have to ask what makes POP so girly, they are obviously looking at the line through a completely different lens. I'm honestly of the opinion that this stupid debate will just go on and on because people will just put blinders on and ask the same questions over and over.

    I like the grittier aspects of MOTU but I also used to enjoy watching Sailor Moon. I would never try and pretend that sailor Moon was not girly. I believe it is ok for men to like some "girly" things and girls to like "boyish" things. Just admit it though and stop trying to make it something that it is not.
    Maybe some fans who don't see the distinction are the fans of the Filmation cartoons, rather than the original toys. You have men in spandex with superpowers over in He-Man. And then you have superpowered women in spandex over at She-Ra. No glitter or lace in either show. And BOTH shows had the same overall tone. This is probably the type of fan who sees He-Man more of a superhero than a barbarian warrior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bcrduke View Post
    Bravo.



    Admit what? That your perspective is the one true persepective? That just makes things easier for you... where's the fun in that?

    This isn't 1984 or 1985. She-Ra characters are no longer sold with rooted hair or fantastic fashions. Your statements refer to the past for support... but the past is not the present... so other than just being stubborn, there is no reason not to ignore the past of POP and think of them as new MOTU characters.

    You believe it is "ok for men to like some 'girl' things and girls to like 'boyish' things? I'm sad that you have to keep things so ultra-traditionally categorized.

    Jeez, this country really did a number on our generation with the gender roles thing. It's really kind of sad.
    Ok first I am so far from believing that my perspective is the one true way. If someone disagrees with me I think it is great because it creates dialogue. I just want people to fully admit that She-Ra was created by Mattel for girls in the 80's and that is where it's roots lie. There is a difference between a fact and an opinion obviously.

    The country sure did push gender roles and it is sad however these things exist even if we want to admit it or not though. To this day things are still marketed to men and women. I was only responding to the statement made that having men in furry shorts means that some fans need to look deeper at their own sexuality. That is hogwash. How am I traditionally categorizing things when I think it is alright to like whatever you want? I did not create the marketing campaign and it was clearly made for the sole purpose of selling to girls. I say you can like both. It was Mattel in the 80's who categorized these toys into girl vs boy, not me.

    Also the whole point of me collecting the line is past nostalgia. I would not collect it today if I had not in the past. So that is why the past is so important for me and many others. I hate to say it but if I walked into a store today and saw Skeletor sitting there, with no past 80's line, I would not pay for him. I may think he looks neat but I would pass. So sadly the line is going to have one foot in the past because it was made to appeal to fans of the previous lines.

    I agree that it is sad that gender roles have become so inflated with toy marketing however it happened and it will forever mark this line. I actually do believe that things blur and that is why I collect all MOTUC. Modern society has dictated what is considered girly though not me.

    I will say this. 80's marketing could not have been completely successful since I owned a Sea Pony, Some Stawberry Shortcake dolls and She-Ra toys alongside my He-man Transformers and G.I.JOE. I also hate sports but apparently the gender roles of the 80's completely messed me up by putting me into the classic gender archetypes eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    Maybe some fans who don't see the distinction are the fans of the Filmation cartoons, rather than the original toys. You have men in spandex with superpowers over in He-Man. And then you have superpowered women in spandex over at She-Ra. No glitter or lace in either show. And BOTH shows had the same overall tone. This is probably the type of fan who sees He-Man more of a superhero than a barbarian warrior.
    .
    Very interesting point. I liked both the pre filmation comics and the filmation era but I can totally see how people would look at the two as almost different genres. I never thought of it that way.
    Last edited by Hordak; April 10, 2013 at 04:59pm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hordak View Post
    And yet some people lack the understanding that not everything has to be sexualized. You know some people collect these out of pure childhood nostalgia and place no sexual value on them. Yay stereotypes! Sorry I don't stare at my toys with my tongue hanging out and think of how attractive they would be. I see barbarian types wearing clothing that is classic fantasy inspired. I can't understand what is so hard about the concept to grasp. Go watch the original She-Ra power books commercial and compare it to a He-Man commercial. It is not hard to see the marketing desires when the commercial has Adora being GROOMED by her friends and Catra is just jealous. "The fate of the world's in the hands of a beautiful girl!" I don't care how pretty someone is when they are charged with saving the world.

    Honestly what I think is getting tired is the entire debate. If you really can't see the difference between Sy-Klone and Perfuma or If you think Clawdeen looks just as ferocious as Battle Cat then we are in completely different dimensions apparently. Jealous Beauty vs Evil Lord of Destruction. Comb weapon vs a Battle Mace. Pretty swan Enchanta vs mechanical horse Stridor. You don't see the differences or you don't want to?

    When someone cannot see the differences between POP and MOTU and have to ask what makes POP so girly, they are obviously looking at the line through a completely different lens. I'm honestly of the opinion that this stupid debate will just go on and on because people will just put blinders on and ask the same questions over and over.

    I like the grittier aspects of MOTU but I also used to enjoy watching Sailor Moon. I would never try and pretend that sailor Moon was not girly. I believe it is ok for men to like some "girly" things and girls to like "boyish" things. Just admit it though and stop trying to make it something that it is not.
    There are overlying issues here. The vintage She-Ra toys, and the Filmation cartoon. Let's say the vintage toys never existed, and we only had the Filmation cartoon to work with. For a lot of us, the She-Ra cartoon was just an extension/continuation of the He-man cartoon, wasn't that much of a difference, same universe etc. Like Batman animated and Justice League Unlimited.
    We want the characters from POP because the are the main enemies of the Horde, we don't want Glimmer because she sparkles, we want her because she's a major player for the Great Rebellion and her powers can be awesome. Just like with the He-man cartoon, a lot of the characters never did in the cartoon what they could do in our imagination.
    That some fans find them visually unappealing is fine, but when people start throwing gender roles around, that's when it becomes offensive. I like POP characters because they are a relevant part of the story and I happen to like them. I don't care if 30 years ago they were dolls. That's not what I see now. There are plenty of doll versions of Wonder Woman, Storm, etc, but does that stop them from being action figures too? No. Why? Because they are a part of a larger mythos that transcends male/female roles.
    When Batgirl was introduced she had the goofiest of accessories, lipstick weapons, etc. She's at the height of her popularity now, as a major component of the Batman mythos.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lay Ze-Man View Post
    Yeah, I see all the pink sparkly glittery tassels all over Sy-Klone.


    That you even wonder why someone would consider PoP too far into "fairy tale princess" genre says it all.
    As bcrduke stated there was no "pink sparkly glittery tassels on the vintage POP figures. Did they have soft good elements, yes, was there some pink, yes, was it the primary color of the line, no, not on the figures themselves. Other than the SS staffs none of my MOTUC females have glitter, if you have some you must have gotten a rare variant.

    For the record I'm not a big fan of the vintage line, but I do love the characters as seen in the Filmation cartoon.

    Clearly my imagination allows me to see past the vintage line that was aimed at girls, and see the characters that the figures were based on. Imagination is a powerful thing and I feel for those who are lacking it. The characters in POP are no more or less great then those from MOTU, not talking figures, I'm talking character.

    Thanks a step back and look at POP from the concept, a world taken over by a horrible empire determined to enslave the people of that world. A small band of rebels in one of the last free Queendoms is striving to free the people and repeal the Horde from their planet. I don't know about you but it sounds a lot like Star Wars, a very "boyish" franchise. Now yes the majority of a the characters are female but that should not make them any less a warrior or rebel. You clearly are not a fan of Filmation, so don't think of how She-ra was handled in the cartoon, just think of story. What's not to like about that story, and those characters? If the story was presented in a less "pastel" fashion it would be ever bit as epic as the story that MOTU was based on. MOTU was just as diluted at POP was, because it was for children.

    If its all nostalgia for you than fine but don't bash those who are willing to be open minded and see the potential of the characters out side of MOTU.

    I don't like NA, but I'm open to the concepts and ideas in it, as well as the figures. I don't feel the need to bash every NA figure that comes out. NA has it's fans too and those fans are no less deserving of figures in MOTUC.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lay Ze-Man View Post
    If YOU see MotU figures as homoerotic, you're welcome to it, but I do not. Besides the fact that very few MotU characters are actually half-naked, I don't live in a world where everything needs to be sexualized. I don't like Evil-Lyn because I think she's hot, I like her because she's a cool, interesting character with an iconic design. But for argument's sake, if PoP actually had a decent number of attractive women in skin-tight costumes with swords that were actually convincing as warriors in the epic stakes of MotU, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. No one questions Teela's inclusion for a reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hordak View Post
    And yet some people lack the understanding that not everything has to be sexualized. You know some people collect these out of pure childhood nostalgia and place no sexual value on them. Yay stereotypes! Sorry I don't stare at my toys with my tongue hanging out and think of how attractive they would be. I see barbarian types wearing clothing that is classic fantasy inspired. I can't understand what is so hard about the concept to grasp. Go watch the original She-Ra power books commercial and compare it to a He-Man commercial. It is not hard to see the marketing desires when the commercial has Adora being GROOMED by her friends and Catra is just jealous. "The fate of the world's in the hands of a beautiful girl!" I don't care how pretty someone is when they are charged with saving the world.

    Whether or not you're willing to admit it or "see" it doesn't change the fact that He-Man is homoerotic, that's just fact. It's human nature to sexualize things, it's in everything from art to architecture. Females in comics and media are all most always sexualized, they are drawn with large busts and form fitting clothes. The males are too, but the straight culture is afraid to see it for what it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hordak View Post
    Honestly what I think is getting tired is the entire debate. If you really can't see the difference between Sy-Klone and Perfuma or If you think Clawdeen looks just as ferocious as Battle Cat then we are in completely different dimensions apparently. Jealous Beauty vs Evil Lord of Destruction. Comb weapon vs a Battle Mace. Pretty swan Enchanta vs mechanical horse Stridor. You don't see the differences or you don't want to?

    When someone cannot see the differences between POP and MOTU and have to ask what makes POP so girly, they are obviously looking at the line through a completely different lens. I'm honestly of the opinion that this stupid debate will just go on and on because people will just put blinders on and ask the same questions over and over.

    I like the grittier aspects of MOTU but I also used to enjoy watching Sailor Moon. I would never try and pretend that sailor Moon was not girly. I believe it is ok for men to like some "girly" things and girls to like "boyish" things. Just admit it though and stop trying to make it something that it is not.
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  15. #15
    Heroic Warrior jzachery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hordak View Post
    Ok first I am so far from believing that my perspective is the one true way. If someone disagrees with me I think it is great because it creates dialogue. I just want people to fully admit that She-Ra was created by Mattel for girls in the 80's and that is where it's roots lie. There is a difference between a fact and an opinion obviously.
    The toyline was marketed to girls, the cartoon was made for both. I believe I recall Lookee in the post episode lesson saying more than once... "Remember boys and girls *brush your teeth*" or whatever lesson was on.
    Why can't people understand that the nostalgia roots you speak of, are there for us too, and we saw POP as one and the same to He-man because of the cartoon series that absorbed them into the larger story? That the toys were marketed to girls was actually annoying to some of us, LOL, we wanted the Filmation Glimmer, not purple poodle Glimmer. I accept the vintage toys on their own merits, as some of them had cool looks, but just because the original toyline was marketed to girls, doesn't make them any less a part of MOTU or nostalgia for a lot of us. You can segment your universe, and that's fine for you, but please don't try to force others to do the same.
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    Clown Prince of Darkness Benedict Judas Hel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slave2Evil_Lyn View Post
    Whether or not you're willing to admit it or "see" it doesn't change the fact that He-Man is homoerotic, that's just fact.
    Well, I don't think that Masters of the Universe is homoerotic in and of itself but I believe it does contain many factors that tend to lend itself easily to homoeroticism.
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  17. #17
    Heroic Warrior Slave2Evil_Lyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    Maybe some fans who don't see the distinction are the fans of the Filmation cartoons, rather than the original toys. You have men in spandex with superpowers over in He-Man. And then you have superpowered women in spandex over at She-Ra. No glitter or lace in either show. And BOTH shows had the same overall tone. This is probably the type of fan who sees He-Man more of a superhero than a barbarian warrior.

    - - - Updated - - -
    .
    I'm first to admit for me it's all about Filmation. But I don't see Filmation as more superhero. I see it as a mix of barbarian fantasy and sci-fi, which is what the line was meant to be. Man-At-Arms proves that, he was far too sci-fi for straight up barbarian. I find the original mini-comics to just be a rip off of Conan. Having Prince Adam, Orko, Cringer, and other elements added for Filmation help make MOTU it's own unique brand. I'm also willing to admit that Filmation had a younger tone but it was meant for kids. So just like I can look past the intend of the vintage She-ra line, I can look past the childishness of Filmation and see how much it added and developed the world of MOTU/POP.
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    Leader of the Evil Horde Hordak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jzachery View Post
    There are overlying issues here. The vintage She-Ra toys, and the Filmation cartoon. Let's say the vintage toys never existed, and we only had the Filmation cartoon to work with. For a lot of us, the She-Ra cartoon was just an extension/continuation of the He-man cartoon, wasn't that much of a difference, same universe etc. Like Batman animated and Justice League Unlimited.
    We want the characters from POP because the are the main enemies of the Horde, we don't want Glimmer because she sparkles, we want her because she's a major player for the Great Rebellion and her powers can be awesome. Just like with the He-man cartoon, a lot of the characters never did in the cartoon what they could do in our imagination.
    That some fans find them visually unappealing is fine, but when people start throwing gender roles around, that's when it becomes offensive. I like POP characters because they are a relevant part of the story and I happen to like them. I don't care if 30 years ago they were dolls. That's not what I see now. There are plenty of doll versions of Wonder Woman, Storm, etc, but does that stop them from being action figures too? No. Why? Because they are a part of a larger mythos that transcends male/female roles.
    When Batgirl was introduced she had the goofiest of accessories, lipstick weapons, etc. She's at the height of her popularity now, as a major component of the Batman mythos.

    Also good points. See the thing is I am on the fence when it comes to POP style. I also watched all the Filmation cartoons and considered it an extension of He-man as well. In fact so far I have no issues with the designs being used by Mattel on the She-Ra toys because for POP I would prefer Filmation over the toys/mini comics any day. I think what is sad is that I have somehow painted myself as a complete POP hater when all I am really trying to say is that I can see both perspectives. I am getting the feeling that some people would assume that I hate POP and that is far from true. I will actually be upset if the line ends without some of the major players from it.

    Look I just want to collect cool toys and not be told that I am sexualizing them. That's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slave2Evil_Lyn View Post
    Whether or not you're willing to admit it or "see" it doesn't change the fact that He-Man is homoerotic, that's just fact. It's human nature to sexualize things, it's in everything from art to architecture. Females in comics and media are all most always sexualized, they are drawn with large busts and form fitting clothes. The males are too, but the straight culture is afraid to see it for what it is.
    Sorry I disagree. First of all these were originally made for kids. Added sexuality was created by the fans as they became adults. You call it homoerotic and I say it's pure fantasy so we can agree to disagree. When I was a kid I did not lust for She-Ra or He-Man. I just wanted to see them act like heroes and save people. You can make anything hetero or homoerotic if you want to. That doesn't mean it was created with that intent.
    Last edited by Hordak; April 10, 2013 at 05:32pm.
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  19. #19
    grumpy old dragon scott metzger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hordak View Post
    Ok first I am so far from believing that my perspective is the one true way. If someone disagrees with me I think it is great because it creates dialogue. I just want people to fully admit that She-Ra was created by Mattel for girls in the 80's and that is where it's roots lie. There is a difference between a fact and an opinion obviously.
    The toy line, yes, but that doesn't really settle anything, because that was only part of it. Folks who keep harping on "She-Ra was for girls" ignore the thing that was likely as important, if not moreso, to the perception of the property than the toyline, namely the cartoon. This is where things blur, and, outside the die-hards, this is where Mr. Average Joe gets his entire concept of He-Man. The toons were the major marketing for the line, far and above anything else, and that is the image most folks have in their heads. Heck, if you ask Mr. Joe, he'll likely think there was one cartoon, not two. He doesn't see two properties, just one: He-Man. I guarantee that, if you were to take 100 random folks out on the street and ask them if they remember Masters of the Universe, and then went to another hundred and asked them if they remember He-Man and She-Ra, you'll get more positive responses with the latter. THe most common question I got when I had a 2002 He-Man out in my office back in the day was a variant of, "Wow, did they make She-Ra?"

    The whole debate is long stale, to be honest. If the line was adapting the toy looks of the She-Ra figures, then we'd have some conflict in styles. But they aren't; they are going with the style guide/cartoon approach, with the Fab Four raising the bar with figures like Bow. They are looking at the versions of the characters most folks will recognize, and that's the toon, where there was no "manly man" or "girly girl" conflict. There was one property with a cohesive style and look, precisely what Mattel wants with Classics, and that's the way they are going. The anti-pop folks are repeatedly bringing up a problem that doesn't exist. All the POP characters are done in Classics style, in full, "manly" action figure mode.

    He-Man and She-Ra are one property; the figures took different approaches, yes, based on the antiquated marketing ideas of the toy industry. But Mr. Average remembers it all as one single thing, as it should ever be...
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  20. #20
    Assimilate, or else!! krosfyah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slave2Evil_Lyn View Post
    Whether or not you're willing to admit it or "see" it doesn't change the fact that He-Man is homoerotic, that's just fact. It's human nature to sexualize things, it's in everything from art to architecture. Females in comics and media are all most always sexualized, they are drawn with large busts and form fitting clothes. The males are too, but the straight culture is afraid to see it for what it is.


    Maybe "gay Culture" wants to see homoeroticism in EVERYTHINg (don't get me started on how the Ernie and Bert thing is stupid as hell)
    now outside of the Ernie and Bert thing, this is NOT something I actually believe, but it's a stereotype that people who HATE gay people use as part of their argument.

    Sorry just as we have different opinions on different things, it's NOT a FACT that he-man or any kid's line is DEFINITELY homoerotic, which means concerning homosexual love and desire or tending to arouse such desire. the second part can be argued, but since there is a fetish out there for EVERYONE, one man (or womans) erotic is another man's nothing. so again it isn't FACT, it's YOUR perspective on the character.

    That's what Hordak is saying, don't paint YOUR leanings into someone elses POV to prove that you are right. For me SOME She-ra characters are a bad fit in MOTU (I don't hate the star sisters, I am 'meh' on them, but I LOATHE Glory Bird), for SOME, NA characters are persona non-grata, for others so are the later figures (Ninjor Rio Blast ETC) they aren't wrong for THEIR tastes, but they are for others. everyone finds a reason to justify their prejudices (used in the most innocent of ways, not bigotry) Why can't we just accept that? it isn't a FACT or LAW that She-ra is too girly, but it IS a valid opinion for those who's tastes don't include PoP.

    I LIKE gender roles too, sometimes it makes sense, it shouldn't be forced but what's wrong with having some sort of niche that most men or women prefer to fit into?? again it doesn't have to be forced (which is the only problem with said roles) but it's awesome when we live in them harmoniously and naturally. that way when others cross the lines, no one bats an eye, because we are just good.
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  21. #21
    Leader of the Evil Horde Hordak's Avatar
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    Heroic Warrior Lentzquest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hordak View Post
    If you really can't see the difference between Sy-Klone and Perfuma or If you think Clawdeen looks just as ferocious as Battle Cat then we are in completely different dimensions apparently. Jealous Beauty vs Evil Lord of Destruction. Comb weapon vs a Battle Mace. Pretty swan Enchanta vs mechanical horse Stridor. You don't see the differences or you don't want to?
    These are funny comparisons because they conveniently leave out Prince Adam. He's the most feminine figure in the MOTUC line in my opinion, more girly than any POP offering so far. To top it off the only one with more pink is Jewelstar. Plus there's the matter of Man-E-Faces.

  23. #23
    Double Trouble is MINE!! Shadow-Ra's Avatar
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    The whole POP vs MOTU is at the end of it's life.

    If you don't like POP, fine. Just stop trying to condemn everyone else who does. I don't particularly like Roboto, but do you hear me complaining about it - No, you don't, and I don't judge anyone else FOR liking him.

    The people who are trying to justify POP being in this line, it's been 5 years now and people STILL aren't listening, I wouldn't bother anymore. They'll just have to continue getting figures they don't like, because we will continue to get them, whether they like it or nor.

    Bring on Double Trouble, Glimmer, Sweet Bee, Angella, Mermista, Peekablue, Spinnerella, Flutterina, Kowl, Loo-Kee and Perfuma!! :
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  24. #24
    Heroic Warrior jzachery's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krosfyah View Post
    Maybe "gay Culture" wants to see homoeroticism in EVERYTHINg (don't get me started on how the Ernie and Bert thing is stupid as hell)
    now outside of the Ernie and Bert thing, this is NOT something I actually believe, but it's a stereotype that people who HATE gay people use as part of their argument.

    Sorry just as we have different opinions on different things, it's NOT a FACT that he-man or any kid's line is DEFINITELY homoerotic, which means concerning homosexual love and desire or tending to arouse such desire. the second part can be argued, but since there is a fetish out there for EVERYONE, one man (or womans) erotic is another man's nothing. so again it isn't FACT, it's YOUR perspective on the character.

    That's what Hordak is saying, don't paint YOUR leanings into someone elses POV to prove that you are right. For me SOME She-ra characters are a bad fit in MOTU (I don't hate the star sisters, I am 'meh' on them, but I LOATHE Glory Bird), for SOME, NA characters are persona non-grata, for others so are the later figures (Ninjor Rio Blast ETC) they aren't wrong for THEIR tastes, but they are for others. everyone finds a reason to justify their prejudices (used in the most innocent of ways, not bigotry) Why can't we just accept that? it isn't a FACT or LAW that She-ra is too girly, but it IS a valid opinion for those who's tastes don't include PoP.

    I LIKE gender roles too, sometimes it makes sense, it shouldn't be forced but what's wrong with having some sort of niche that most men or women prefer to fit into?? again it doesn't have to be forced (which is the only problem with said roles) but it's awesome when we live in them harmoniously and naturally. that way when others cross the lines, no one bats an eye, because we are just good.
    No one is saying that people aren't entitled to their opinion, it's when they get on the POP hate parade of forcing people to admit to their position. And usually their position isn't that they don't want POP for their collection, but that they don't want POP released at all.
    I don't care what anyone else likes, it's when what they dislike potentially impacts MY collection. They're not saying, hey I'm not into this figure, they're saying, don't make this figure in the first place as it's undeserving to be in the line and is for girls. As if the origination of the vintage toy line being for girls should automatically exclude them.

    As for ****-eroticism, I do agree that some people look for it in everything, but put yourself in someone else's shoes. Growing up and having nothing to relate to, on TV, in cartoons, in media, music, nothing is like you, so you find it where you can. But the characters, being warriors or not, male or female, I never thought of it as **** erotic, just erotic in general. I didn't detect a gay element, but does it surprise you that a line full of muscle men has a gay following? LOL If nothing else we're all in the same boat, we want more figures before the line ends.
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  25. #25
    Heroic Warrior Slave2Evil_Lyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hordak View Post
    Also good points. See the thing is I am on the fence when it comes to POP style. I also watched all the Filmation cartoons and considered it an extension of He-man as well. In fact so far I have no issues with the designs being used by Mattel on the She-Ra toys because for POP I would prefer Filmation over the toys/mini comics any day. I think what is sad is that I have somehow painted myself as a complete POP hater when all I am really trying to say is that I can see both perspectives. I am getting the feeling that some people would assume that I hate POP and that is far from true. I will actually be upset if the line ends without some of the major players from it.

    Look I just want to collect cool toys and not be told that I am sexualizing them. That's all.
    I'm glad to hear you do not dislike POP. I also want cool toys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hordak View Post
    Sorry I disagree. First of all these were originally made for kids. Added sexuality was created by the fans as they became adults. You call it homoerotic and I say it's pure fantasy so we can agree to disagree. When I was a kid I did not lust for She-Ra or He-Man. I just wanted to see them act like heroes and save people. You can make anything hetero or homoerotic if you want to. That doesn't mean it was created with that intent.


    Quote Originally Posted by krosfyah View Post
    Maybe "gay Culture" wants to see homoeroticism in EVERYTHINg (don't get me started on how the Ernie and Bert thing is stupid as hell)
    now outside of the Ernie and Bert thing, this is NOT something I actually believe, but it's a stereotype that people who HATE gay people use as part of their argument.

    Sorry just as we have different opinions on different things, it's NOT a FACT that he-man or any kid's line is DEFINITELY homoerotic, which means concerning homosexual love and desire or tending to arouse such desire. the second part can be argued, but since there is a fetish out there for EVERYONE, one man (or womans) erotic is another man's nothing. so again it isn't FACT, it's YOUR perspective on the character.

    True He-Man as made for children but it was made by adults. Like most comic heroes He-Man was drawn to be super muscular, even more than Superman really. The same is true for woman, Teela is drawn in a way that make her sexualized, she has exagerated curves, in the cartoon she was featured with a very "womanly" body. The concept of "body building" is based in the gay sub culture. It was a way for men to look at and admire another mans body with out being though of as a homosexual, in a time when that was even less excepted than it is now. Superman was not always drawn ripped, but He-Man started out that way, he was designed to look like a body builder. So when I say that He-Man is "homoerotic" its not about him being gay or interested in sex, it just they way he was designed. He was not designed to appeal to men but they way he was designed has those roots that makes his design homoerotic. Basically I'm saying it was not intentional, it just is.

    Consciously or not sexual undertones show up in everything, that is just human nature. We are programed that way. He-Man's design being homoerotic does not take away from his as a character.

    As a gay man I can clearly see the sexualized way females are depicted in comics, movies and even toys. Even Wonder Woman's design is sexualized, and she's is also a role model for kids. Accepting this does not make me any less gay.

    Quote Originally Posted by krosfyah View Post
    I LIKE gender roles too, sometimes it makes sense, it shouldn't be forced but what's wrong with having some sort of niche that most men or women prefer to fit into?? again it doesn't have to be forced (which is the only problem with said roles) but it's awesome when we live in them harmoniously and naturally. that way when others cross the lines, no one bats an eye, because we are just good.
    Gender roles are not a good thing, historically they have suppressed and demeaned woman. The genders are different, not doubt, and they are different interest but that does not mean they should have defined roles in life or society based on their gender.
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