I'm the same way. While Lee's art has aged a lot more gracefully than that of the other 6 Image Comics founders, imo at least, I also feel it's overrated. It isn't bad, but it all looks the same after awhile. While I wish Johns would lay off the occasional Saw-like violence he loves to sprinkle through his comics, he's almost always great imo. I find that he's one of the most dependable writers currently working at the "Big 2".Originally Posted by Monkeyboy Prime
Was Dale Keown one of the Image founders? I love his work (PITT especially, got the whole run)
To me the absolute bottom of the barrel was Liefeld, its like he wasn't even trying or if he was he stopped like a quarter of the way into what he was doing.
Nope, the founders were Jim Lee, Rob Liefeld, Erik Larsen, Todd McFarlane, Marc Silvestri and Jim Valentino.
Whicle Portacio and Dale Keown were in the "second wave" of talent that went over to the company.
Portacio was going to be one of the first wave(and is often referred to as one of the founders), but family issues delayed Wetworks.
I hope Jim Lee and Geoff Johns decide to do 12 months of Wonder Woman or Aquaman, like Lee did with Jeph Loeb or Brian A.
Yeah, his sister was dying of Lupis.
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I'm quite off on buying comics but I'd love to know what the rumors are.
Actually, I' quite tempted to get Flashpoint. I missed Blackest Night (and of course Brightest Day) and I'm quite sorry about it. I'll get a trade anytime soon.
The only "monthly" comic that I'm following is "Batman: Odyssey" and besides that I'm not understanding a bit where the story goes although I still dig Neal Adams art a lot.
Regarding the reboot, I don't see it viable. There are characters that have their own story depending on how events were unfold, like Tim Drake, Superboy Prime, Guy Gardner and so many on. Pretty much a similar scenario on JSA characters. Not even in 1986 DC was able to generate a full reboot on some characters like Batman, Green Arrow or Green Lantern.
I do really like Jim Lee art, I'm so afraid that him and Frank Miller weren't able to finish All Star Batman, which was some of the best guilty pleasures I ever have.
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Jim Lee wasn't able to finish WildC.A.T.S. for his own relaunch. I heard that ASB&R lateness was Frank Miller's fault.
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It was also due to Didio(among others) unhappy with the way the editor in charge of the All Star line handled it(he was fired). They liked All Star Superman but felt Miller's ASBMARTBW was bad(especially after issues were released with vulgar language not blocked out). Even Geoff John's Batgirl series was taken off the schedule. From my understanding, this series is dead and the Earth One books(Superman and the upcoming Batman) are replacing it. I feel bad for the fans of the book, but I found it beyond awful. It's the raunchy, superhero disparaging crud I'd expect from JoeyQ's Marvel and not DC.
Man All Star Batman was such a pile. If you look at it like a joke in the vain of Marvel's old What the?! book it's not to bad, but if you take it as Miller meant.....ugh. No offence to anyone who liked it.
And I know your a big Superman fan so what did you think of All Star Superman? Speaking for myself, as someone who is not much of a fan, thought it was great.
To Rhanen: Flashpoint, at least I thought, was really good I whole heartedly recommend it. It didn't have a lot of lead in so you can just jump right in.
(Spoilers)
The rumor is that Johns and Lee are doing the relaunch of Superman.
When will we get our Songster figure Mattel???
I liked it a lot(although the premise of Superman dying was sort of a bummer).
So far, unless you include Flash #9-12(it is billed as a prelude to Flashpoint but I think it could easily be skipped) & Time Masters #6(the last page of it hints at Flashpoint but isn't necessary), all that is out for this event so far is Flashpoint #1 along with last week's Booster Gold #44. The nice thing about this crossover is that other than Booster Gold & the main 5-part Flashpoint mini-series, nothing is really needed(at least that's how it seems to me). The other Flashpoint books appear to be 1-shots or 3-issue mini-series covering various characters in this "new" DC Universe. If you don't have the cash or don't like the character, you can just skip them.
This could be cool, but I am sort of nervous since Johns is the one who killed off Pa Kent. The one thing I liked from John Byrnes' Man Of Steel reboot in the mid-80's was keeping both of Clark's adoptive parents alive. Now we're down to just Ma Kent.
Agree with you 100%. I loved the Pa Kent and Superman relationship. I hope it's a more "traditional" Superman story than the recent stuff.
When will we get our Songster figure Mattel???
Ugh, no kidding. I'm really not a fan of his work at all.
But he seems like a nice enough guy...
I met him at Phx comic-con a couple years ago and he was cool... signed and did free sketches for a whole line of people.
Even missed/rescheduled his flight to make sure he got to everyone in line.
That would be pretty awesome.
Bill :: guitargod694
I hope the rumors of how Flashpoint will restructure the DCU are false.
Did anyone who read Flashpoint #1 get the feeling of He-Man & Battle Cat from Captain Thunder(the "new" Captain Marvel)?
The 6 kids who use the power of Shazam & a less anthropomorphized version of Tawky Tawny...
...and after their transformation...
Geoff Johns has gone on record as saying he loved He-Man.
Looks like those rumors were true...
still can't say I think this is a good idea, but I'll wait and see what comes of it, I guess.
At least the Johns/Lee Justice League is happening... that might be cool. Right? Maybe?
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/DC-U...nt-110531.html
Bill :: guitargod694
As Guitargod is already noting...
This autumn, the DC universe is rebooting. All titles are returning to issue 1 and several (most?) are going back to an earlier point in time to appeal more to readers of today.
Good idea? Bad idea?
The digital distribution is awesome, of course.
http://dcu.blog.dccomics.com/2011/05...-distribution/
Yeah, digital distribution isn't something that interests me (at least not currently) but it is definitely a good move for them, I think.
The rest... eh... I don't know.
I'm not convinced this really a reboot as much as just a publicity stunt.
Also, renumbering Action Comic and Detective Comics is not something I can get behind.
It's also not something I believe for a second they won't undo within 1-2 years.
Bill :: guitargod694
The digital distribution is the ONE positive. I may end up dropping comics altogether. This has been building for a while, but I was a fan of the Super Friends and Satellite Era JLA and the New Teen Titans and have just been following along for years. There's been a lot of good stuff, but it's just not the same and DC for the last year or so has plain sucked, with the Straczynski fiasco on Wonder Woman and Superman and Robinson's so-called Justice League.
I can't believe the man responsible for Wonder Woman's universally-reviled pants-and-jacket was allowed... GIVEN on a silver platter the job of redesigning the entire DCU. Lee's aesthetic is NOT current or modern! It's all very, very 90s and outdated! And why would they even think they needed to make their characters more "more identifiable and accessible to comic fans new and old"... BY CHANGING THEM?! The biggest slap in the face?! Changing Superman's S logo! Are you kidding me?! How disrespectful! That logo is either right behind Nike's Swoosh logo or possibly ahead of it as the most recognizable in the world! It's tattooed on like every fifth guy's bicep! I'd say that's pretty recognizable! And what, was there a sale on priest collars?! GAH! Are priest collars the new black?! (They were in 1997, ba-da-bump!)
And I love how he barely backed down on the Wonder Woman suit everyone despised. He tweaked it, made the gold silver, remove the (SENSIBLE) shoulder straps and those stupid arm bondage straps, but the tiara is the same, the bodice is essentially the same, but as I said, minus the SUPPORT. She's still in pants. I assume they gave her red boots, since that was everyone's biggest sticking point. Lord knows what else he's wrought on the rest of the DCU.
Hate to be so pessimistic... I TRIED to defend the new WW suit. I stuck with Brightest Day and have even continued buying Wonder Woman and Justice League, but I've just reached the point where I'm folding my arms and glaring and saying "Entertain me." Otherwise, I'll just stick with Fables and Walking Dead.
Marvel did digital awhile back and while they are doing better than DC it isn't by an amount I would considered well by any means. They need to do something and I don't think just adding in digital versions isn't going to improve figures that much. I can guarantee DC pretty much realizes the only people reading comics are those who are going to for the most part just keep reading them, so doing something like this is an effort to bring in new readers.
It isn't people don't like the format, manga while not as popular as it was a few years back is still doing well.
What I would really like for digital comics though is a reader, about the size of a comic and not to expensive and you can have it subscribe to titles. While I still love having a book or comic in my hand, many I would be just as happy getting in digital format for space saving features.
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I love the DCU and I'm willing to give this a chance, but I really hope this is more of a stunt to let new readers jump in than something permanent. From that tiny pic, I'm not loving Jim Lee's costume redesigns. Aquaman has gone "pinecone" like Captain America(I despise the over-the-top scale look), Wonder Woman has a new costume that is no better than the her last "upgrade", Superman looks like he lost his trunks like Batman(the costumes really lose something when they are all one color), has a high collar, & a slightly changed "S", and Green Lantern has a 3D symbol on his chest. It won't stop me from reading their books, but it reall seems like DC is going the way of JoeyQ's Marvel(that, imho, is NOT a good thing). They are ignoring continuity, making classic costumes "kewl for kidz", rebooting comics for a sales boost(although I guess they've been guilty of that before), and shipping a lot more products than they used to(quantity doesn't equal quality). I guess we won't have long before Johns & Didio start trashing Marvel & their talent on every interview.
Covers Of Some Of The Post-Flashpoint Reboots...
Mr. Terrific
Firestorm
Justice League International
I'm willing to give this a chance, but where it stands now, this looks like I might be done with superhero comics from the "Big 2". I already left Marvel, but, for all it's flaws, DC Comics seemed to embrace what I loved about superheroes. Now it seems like they're going the way of Marvel(minus the overt sexuality).
Censorship
Marvel censored smoking while DC is censoring women's legs. While I have never found Wonder Woman, Supergirl, & the like to be turn-ons, I hate that they are leaving behind iconic costumes that even non-comic readers could pick out of a line-up for an over-the-top politically correct move.
Renumbering
Sure, DC has renumbered & rebooted books in the past, but Marvel has been a lot more guilty of that in recent years. Now DC seems intent on beating them at their own game in one month.
Too Many Books
While the quality of DC's books is up to the opinion of each individual reader, they definitely aren't guilty of the overwhelming onslaught of books each month like Marvel. Now we are, if I understand this correctly, getting 52 new books in 1 month(along with, I'm sure, whatever other DC/Vertigo books are going to stick around). Quality doesn't equal quantity and DC seems to be spending their time focusing on the wrong "problem".
Losing Longtime Fans In Favor Of Possibly Gaining New Fans
Marvel sells better than DC 99% of the time. It's been like that more often than not since Stan Lee & Jack Kirby first created the Marvel Universe. For some reason or another, Marvel readers have been, through good times & bad, more loyal to their preferred company. With that being the case, the sales on Marvel have still gone downhill even after JoeyQ "saved" Marvel. Part of the reason is that, for as many new readers as Marvel has gained, they've also lost a lot. DC can hardly afford to lose the loyal & smaller amount of longtime fans on a gamble looking to entice the "modern Marvel fanyboy". I may be wrong and even enjoy this "new" DCU myself, but it looks like DC is headed for failure. They're going to lose a lot of readers and find that "Marvel Zombies" are not easily swayed from their company of choice.
"Old Fashioned" Costumes Are Not The Problem
Marvel has, in recent years, sorta turned their back on 3 fanyboy concepts; continity, secret identities, and spandex. While DC has always been the more "old school" of the 2 companies, a line-up of Marvel's current main characters looks more like characters from a sci-fi TV show or a movie adaptation than a bunch of superheroes. DC, for better or worse, has always had the more iconic costumes. Sure, some may feel they are old fashioned, but if a kid in the middle of a small village in Africa can point out who Superman is, is that a bad thing? Not only does DC seem to feel that turning Wonder Woman into a less "sexy" Red Sonja and the rest of the JLA(although I hear they are dropping the "America" from their title) into early 90's Image Comics "homages" is the answer to their popularity problem, they are giving the job to a guy who has shown in the past that he's not the most adept at pleasing the majority of fans with his costume redeisgns. Jim Lee may be working exclusively at DC, but he is still a Marvel/Image guy at heart. From what I've seen of his redesigns, he should not have been the guy to do them(or at least not all 50 of them).
I hope I'm wrong and this ends up being a great idea & gives DC some of their biggest numbers they've had in quite awhile. Right now I'm just shocked that this is happening under Geoff John's watch. This doesn't seem like something he would be for since most of his work in the past has shown a great deal of love for DC's history and not Marvel's present.
Another pic of Firestorm which, I'm assuming, is Ronnie & Jason merged together...
At least Aquaman still looks like Aquaman...
This Hawkman pic just has me wondering why we have a middle aged comic artist with his design sensibilities stuck in the 90's redesigning costumes that have been OK for decades & decades all for the sake of "young fans" who I'm not even sure exist anymore(at least not in any large numbers)...
Not my favorite Green Arrow costume but at least it doesn't have the lime green of the Smallville costume...
I'm curious who is the reason behind this new DCU "makeover". Dan Didio? Jim Lee? Has Geoff Johns finally turned his back on the Silver Age & Bronze Age? Are the rumors correct that have this as a mandate from Warner Bros wanting to "fix" DC Comics so they'll have movies as successful as Marvel's(at least movies beyond Batman's)?
Last edited by Mr. Shokoti; June 3, 2011 at 03:33am. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Yeah, DC was the company that was unashamed to have superheroes.
I'll bet this is more about using Wonder Woman in media like film and television in particular than anything else. Ever since sex workers started using the Wonder Woman costume in their performances, the Wonder Woman costume has been derided as looking like a stripper outfit. There is nothing wrong with the WW costume. The reason why strippers wear the outfit IS because it's so iconic and recognizable. You don't see strippers dressing up as Storm or The Scarlet Witch.Censorship
Marvel censored smoking while DC is censoring women's legs. While I have never found Wonder Woman, Supergirl, & the like to be turn-ons, I hate that they are leaving behind iconic costumes that even non-comic readers could pick out of a line-up for an over-the-top politically correct move.
Renumbering is pointless...might as well make all books limited series.Renumbering
Sure, DC has renumbered & rebooted books in the past, but Marvel has been a lot more guilty of that in recent years. Now DC seems intent on beating them at their own game in one month.
This is their way of throwing stuff up at the wall and seeing what sticks.Too Many Books
While the quality of DC's books is up to the opinion of each individual reader, they definitely aren't guilty of the overwhelming onslaught of books each month like Marvel. Now we are, if I understand this correctly, getting 52 new books in 1 month(along with, I'm sure, whatever other DC/Vertigo books are going to stick around). Quality doesn't equal quantity and DC seems to be spending their time focusing on the wrong "problem".
This isn't going to get kids into comic stores.Losing Longtime Fans In Favor Of Possibly Gaining New Fans
Marvel sells better than DC 99% of the time. It's been like that more often than not since Stan Lee & Jack Kirby first created the Marvel Universe. For some reason or another, Marvel readers have been, through good times & bad, more loyal to their preferred company. With that being the case, the sales on Marvel have still gone downhill even after JoeyQ "saved" Marvel. Part of the reason is that, for as many new readers as Marvel has gained, they've also lost a lot. DC can hardly afford to lose the loyal & smaller amount of longtime fans on a gamble looking to entice the "modern Marvel fanyboy". I may be wrong and even enjoy this "new" DCU myself, but it looks like DC is headed for failure. They're going to lose a lot of readers and find that "Marvel Zombies" are not easily swayed from their company of choice.
Jim Lee is so revered because of those X-Men costumes that lasted almost a decade and sold a million copies. But this isn't the same speculator driven market. It worked for the X-Men because the X-Men aren't tied to one particular look. I love Jim's work, but you can't redesign iconic and expect it to stick."Old Fashioned" Costumes Are Not The Problem
Marvel has, in recent years, sorta turned their back on 3 fanyboy concepts; continity, secret identities, and spandex. While DC has always been the more "old school" of the 2 companies, a line-up of Marvel's current main characters looks more like characters from a sci-fi TV show or a movie adaptation than a bunch of superheroes. DC, for better or worse, has always had the more iconic costumes. Sure, some may feel they are old fashioned, but if a kid in the middle of a small village in Africa can point out who Superman is, is that a bad thing? Not only does DC seem to feel that turning Wonder Woman into a less "sexy" Red Sonja and the rest of the JLA(although I hear they are dropping the "America" from their title) into early 90's Image Comics "homages" is the answer to their popularity problem, they are giving the job to a guy who has shown in the past that he's not the most adept at pleasing the majority of fans with his costume redeisgns. Jim Lee may be working exclusively at DC, but he is still a Marvel/Image guy at heart. From what I've seen of his redesigns, he should not have been the guy to do them(or at least not all 50 of them).
I think it's Warner Bros. trying to adapt their characters to something that Joe Average would like. We might be seeing movie versions here ala Thor's Copiel costume.I'm curious who is the reason behind this new DCU "makeover". Dan Didio? Jim Lee? Has Geoff Johns finally turned his back on the Silver Age & Bronze Age? Are the rumors correct that have this as a mandate from Warner Bros wanting to "fix" DC Comics so they'll have movies as successful as Marvel's(at least movies beyond Batman's)?
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If it was just Wonder Woman, I'd agree. Did you look at the above pic of the post-Flashpoint JLI? Even Vixen is entirely covered except for her arms. I'm not going to miss the midriff on Supergirl's costume but seeing her without a skirt just doesn't seem right. I wonder if Phantom Lady & Power Girl are even going to be around after Flashpoint. Are Zatanna & Black Canary going to be wearing pants too? Again, my problem isn't because I lust after these drawings. It's that they are getting rid of so many "classic" costumes at the same time for no good reason at all.
Maybe at Marvel(although I don't think any of the characters are even wearing his designs any longer), but his Wonder Woman costume wasn't exactly loved. I like his art(although most of his characters have the same face), but I've never felt like he belongs at DC. He'll always be a Marvel/Image guy to me.Jim Lee is so revered because of those X-Men costumes that lasted almost a decade and sold a million copies. But this isn't the same speculator driven market. It worked for the X-Men because the X-Men aren't tied to one particular look. I love Jim's work, but you can't redesign iconic and expect it to stick.
I really dislike Coipel's Thor costume. That and Cassaday starting the trend of "pinecone armor" on Cap make it hard for me to even look at those characters any longer without feeling sad.I think it's Warner Bros. trying to adapt their characters to something that Joe Average would like. We might be seeing movie versions here ala Thor's Copiel costume.
Wonder Woman is the chief example. LOTS of DC Women are the same way and would pose similar problems if they get optioned for a movie: Power Girl, Starfire, Star Sapphire, Arisa, Supergirl, Phantom Lady, Black Canary, Zatanna, Poison Ivy, Catwoman and Soranik Natu (when they aren't zipped up).
I know. Many of those looks ARE their identities. Black Canary and Zantanna have to have stockings.Again, my problem isn't because I lust after these drawings. It's that they are getting rid of so many "classic" costumes at the same time for no good reason at all.
His X-Men costumes lasted almost a decade until L. Francis Yu redesigned their costumes when Claremont returned to the book.Maybe at Marvel(although I don't think any of the characters are even wearing his designs any longer), but his Wonder Woman costume wasn't exactly loved. I like his art(although most of his characters have the same face), but I've never felt like he belongs at DC. He'll always be a Marvel/Image guy to me.
Lee really isn't the DC type, but I guess DC gave him the best deal when he sold Wildstorm. His costume designs are more like uniforms and battle gear, not iconic costumes.
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Is this the secret of the DCU Relaunch or purely fanboy conjecture?
http://bobmitchellinthe21stcentury.w...erse-relaunch/
If they have been planning this since then, I am more worried for the people in charge. It's one thing that this sounds like they started planning this three months ago, but 5 years ago?
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One Gum Drop to bring them all and in the sweetness bind them
In the Land of Candy where the Gingerbreads lie.
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Rob Liefeld isn't a comic artist, he's a women's clothing designer. Think about it
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