Toyguru's follow-up to RGD 47 & 48 as well as Filmation Rights and other guesses

[urbanmyth]

I can't believe this thread is still going strong on this particular topic.

[oulala]

The Horde is She-ra's villainous faction in the Filmation canon. I don't give a rat's ass that they were originally intended to be in MOTU. In TV history they ended up being in POP and NOT MOTU.

You can't argue otherwise on the ground that things might have happened differently. Originally in Star Wars, Luke was a tiny little miniature person. Guess what? Lucas changed his mind and Luke ended up NOT being a miniature person. What's important is what actally happened as opposed to what could have happened!

The Horde's media birth and introduction came with SECRET OF THE SWORD when He-man first encountered them on Etheria when he went there to look for Adora. They were never featured in the He-man cartoon, only in POP. Blah.

As for them being released under the MOTU toyline banner, that's another story. I would understand the argument had the Horde been FIRST released under MOTU before the Secret of the Sword movie and then 'stolen' by POP, but that's not what happened. The Horde was premiered with She-ra and then was released under the MOTU toyline label. Not the other way round.

Next topic: The female buck. I totally agree with Tallstar about the slight frustration of always having Teela premiering a new buck tailor fitted to her, and then having that same buck being recycled for She-ra.

Same happened with the exclusive SDCC She-ra figure, who wears Teela's infamous asymetrical BOOT, and her bracelets, etc. being a simple Teela redeco.

It would be nice one day for Mattel to give she-ra a brand new, original buck made JUST for her. They can reuse it on other characters if they want but She-ra is as iconic as He-man and you'd think she would at the very least deserve her very own sculpt, as opposed to a neon green gorilla that no one has ever heard of before...

Don't get me wrong. I love the diversity in MOTUC. I love Gygor and Battle Ground Teela (can't wait to have her). All I'm saying is that sometimes the budget for tooling seems to go for obscure characters as opposed to ones that people have been clamoring for ever for.

Here's a good example: Bow. As a Pop fan, you'd expect me to defend him right? Well, he's one of my favorite figures so far but I was kinda surprised that he gets the brand new wrist articulation whereas He-man can't even hold his sword up in the air right. That to me doesn't make any sense. I'm still happy and I love the fact that Mattel gave us such a wondrous figure (Bow is awesome) I'm just surprised that figures such as Gygor or a Teela Variant (no matter how cool they are) would get so much new tooling, as opposed to A list characters.

[Tallstar]

It's also a misguided notion to claim to know exactly what someone is thinking and label them something based on your interpretation...food for thought

If I was just going purely on gut instincts I would agree with you, but it's a combination of instincts and measurable facts, over a lengthy period of time, for lack of a better way of putting it. I'm not claiming to know exactly what folks are thinking, however, one can start to get an idea of the intentions over time.

Like Guitargod just said, disagreeing with you and some others does not = not understanding. Thinking it does is can make you unreasonable

There are some things in life that are indisputable facts, though. IMO, Sometimes folks use the whole "it's my opinion" stance inappropriately.

[Emiliano]

Man, although I'm self-exiled from the .org, Val kindly asked me to chime in and bring some wisodm to this mess. I read a few pages, then I decided there is nothing I can say without offending anyone (not that I want to, but I know I would)
All the talk about female buck and sexism just sounds crazy to me.
I think Dynamo of Eternia addressed almost everything and he's 100% right, I don't think I need to repeat it, but if you want to read something that is realistic and reasonble go read his post on page. 4.


Other than that, since I'm now more interested in just the historical and creative aspects of MOTU, I want to address something oulala just said:

The Horde is She-ra's villainous faction in the Filmation canon. I don't give a rat's ass that they were originally intended to be in MOTU. In TV history they ended up NOT being in POP and NOT MOTU.

The harsh reality (at least for POP heaters, assuming they actually exist) is that the Horde were originally intended for POP, and they have always been intended for POP.
Filmation developed the characters for the POP cartoon.
It's a fact.
You want proof? I have seen proof, and you'll have them soon enough I hope

[MegaGearMax]

Emiliano...you can take the man out of the .org, but you can't take the .org out of the man!

I can't believe this thread is still going strong on this particular topic.

I can. POP fans are a match for 200X fans in raw passion.

I don't think there is any sexism (I think favortism is what you mean) or conspiracies going on in this line though. MOTU is going to get the lion's share of the attention here. POP,NA, 200X, MYP, Mini-comcs and concepts are along for the ride. Everyone is using the same parts, male or female. Even NA is using MOTU bucks.

[markatisu]

Even NA is using MOTU bucks.

And thank god because it helps to prove my point that the only true reason people hate on it is because the figures were different scale/parts than the vintage

[Tallstar]

I think Dynamo of Eternia addressed almost everything and he's 100% right, I don't think I need to repeat it, but if you want to read something that is realistic and reasonble go read his post on page. 4.

Wow. I can't believe you're agreeing with 100% of that...

[Emiliano]

Wow. I can't believe you're agreeing with 100% of that...

Well, maybe 99%, I stopped reading when I realized Dynamo was saying all the stuff I wanted to say.
I'm talking about how things works, I'm not interested in bickering on other member's personality and behaviour.

Jim, I hate to say it, but all the talk about female bucks and who's realead first etc is all wrong and ridiculous, no offense.
It's all a matter of perception, but what fans perceive may not have anything to do with the reality of how a toy is developed.
And it is true that the majority of fans prefer the cartoon version of the characters.
You can blame me too, during the years, even prior to MOTU and when I was still allowed to talk to the 4H, we discussed that many time, and cartoon version was always my first suggestion.
That doesn't rule out a toy version later on.
It's all about money: if they sell, you can bet your ass that Mattel will release refreshes of the POP character more similar to the vintage toys!

[Reboot]

*agrees fully with Dynamo & Emiliano on this matter*

Um okay. My post essentially amounted to: "I'll believe it when I see it", which folks toss-out around these parts all the time.

"Here's a couple things that need to happen in order for me to be convinced there's no conspiracy"? That's stronger. And "believe it when you see it" only applies when a promise has been made - they never promised that stuff. (They closest they came is when they said they'd base the She-Ra characters on the toys, but not as a promise. And then they saw the reaction to that and changed their minds appropriately...)

[And a couple =/= four ]

And as I said earlier, that list is stuff they should be doing anyway.

In your opinion.

Not even touching this.

For the record, the word I used can also be used in reference to a male chicken. I'm shocked that it's been swear-filtered, which makes the sentence look much worse...

There would also be tons of non-Horde characters, so the ratio game wouldn't be so fun anymore for some of you if many of those were edging out MOTU characters from the original line. That was the point.

First time it's been implied I'm some sort of hardcore vintage toy fan. I'm a Filmation He-Man & She-Ra fan (and I prefer those terms to "MotU" and "PoP"), who has some appreciation for the MYP He-Man (but not the Snakemen-centric episodes, which were uniformly horrid). If we never see the likes of Mosquitor and Twistoid again, it'll be too soon.

[gbagok]

You know, all I want is for them to add more details into the PoP costumes than can be found in the Filmation designs. That's all. They can draw from the toys' details, or make up their own. I like how they did Bow. His boots are NA He-Man's, but he's a good compromise and a beautiful toy. Beyond that, I'm content to wait for more PoP stuff. We've got 6 years planned, and we won't get there without continued support. This from someone who liked the 200X stactions sculpts way more than MOTUC! I have no doubt there will be more PoP stuff to come in this line, and honestly I just want to see it happen rather than demand it happen at a certain pace. I'll kiss Scott on the mouth if Illumina is the last figure made just because she gets made at all (or I won't if it makes the difference, Scott).

And thank god because it helps to prove my point that the only true reason people hate on it is because the figures were different scale/parts than the vintage

Mmm, I think it's also that the colors and designs just don't go back to the same magical nostalgic sweet spot for many of us. At the time I loved that He-Man and Skeletor weren't sausage factories anymore and more "normal" proportioned--probably because I had loved the movie which obviously couldn't feature people built like the original toys. I think the Horsemen will do very interesting things with these guys though and I'm as eager to see it as I am to see more 200X, mini comic, and PoP characters (and if we don't get mini comic NA Sorceress, I'm going to freak out).

[DO4M]

There is a favoritism towards Vintage MOTU. Sadly, there are many reasons why that favoritism exists. (Being The Original line, having the bigger roster, etc.)
I swear, if we get '200X Sorceress before Angella It'll fuel the 'Mattel/4H are biased towards vintage MOTU' sentiment... (Yes, NA has it worse, but we're discussing PoP here.)

While I'm fond of the Filmation designs; I DO feel that they look a tad bland compared to the 'Vintage' MOTU inspired designs (Bow is the sole exception to PoP's underdetailed look with his "Surpisingly not Anime, yet very hyperdetailed look)
I honestly wouldn't buy ALL the PoP figures if they made a 'second toy version' but there are a couple of figures who are Different enough to warrant a Toy version. (Castaspella, Catra, She-Ra, etc.)

Why does the 'New female stuff' has to premiere on Teela? While stoked for BG Teela, why didn't the new "nude" Torso premiere with 'Queen of Grayskull'? (Which should be the OTHER figure to reuse that sculpt?)

[zodak74]

My main thing with Filmation PoP designs vs. classic toy designs is the matter of fact that the toys just have way more detail and just look better than what Filmation presented us with. I think people are picturing frilly cloth skirts or pantaloons on their impending MOTUC Glimmer or Angella figures, but the outfits are going to be a sculpted plastic of some sort and I'm just crossing fingers that when the Four Horsemen do 'em they don't end up overly simplified like they're wearing '80s spandex aerobics outfits (which is how I feel they look in Filmation). What they did with Bow was amazing. I want to see that sort of hybrid look for Glimmer, Angella, Castaspella, Frosta, etc. But this is something I've said a million times before, but I just wanted to throw out there that not everyone wants 100% cartoon style PoP gals. I want some detail in there, and I feel that a few extra tooling dollars could be spent on some guantlets and boots to differentiate the gals a bit. If you look at the classic toys, there aren't THAT many different styles and a lot of the girls do share parts, but there's enough that I would be annoyed if Frosta, Entrapta, Mermista, etc all came with She-Ra/Catra's boots and guantlets. Part of the problem for us PoP fans is that we've only seen the heavy hitters of PoP introduced in MOTUC. Bow, She-Ra, Adora, Catra... and a lot of reused parts for the ladies. It's not like the MOTU characters... where they mixed up the line-up a lot over the past couple years and you go from Teela to Trap-Jaw to Keldor to Sy-Klone to Whiplash and there's all kinds of unique parts worked in, and more excitingly you just don't know who's going to show up next! I don't wanna say the PoP roll out has been predictable... buuuut... until we get a Frosta, Double Trouble or a Peekablue or a Star Sister... we're not really going to have a good idea of how PoP is going to be handled in the rest of the line because so far there hasn't that much variety (and even less if you're waiting to see how NA is going to be integrated into the mix!).

[Tallstar]

Well, maybe 99%, I stopped reading when I realized Dynamo was saying all the stuff I wanted to say.
I'm talking about how things works, I'm not interested in bickering on other member's personality and behaviour.

I'm just surprised by some of what you're saying. "Bringing wisdom to this mess" and deciding that someone is 100% right, without having read the responses to those comments? I'm going to pretend that you didn't call everything I had to say "unreasonable."

"Here's a couple things that need to happen in order for me to be convinced there's no conspiracy"? That's stronger. And "believe it when you see it" only applies when a promise has been made - they never promised that stuff. (They closest they came is when they said they'd base the She-Ra characters on the toys, but not as a promise. And then they saw the reaction to that and changed their minds appropriately...)

Actually, you're wrong. If you re-read the WTFWTK answers, they did promise dramatic unique tooling on some of the POP characters. Mini-Comic and toy line designs were supposed to have a real chance of being made in this 'everyone is possible as long as we have the rights' line, but they've sort of been backpedaling a bit as of late. And all of this is wrapped up in the denials of a conspiracy. So yes, "I'll believe it when I see it" or rather believe it when some of these promises are fulfilled.

[markatisu]

I don't wanna say the PoP roll out has been predictable... buuuut... until we get a Frosta, Double Trouble or a Peekablue or a Star Sister... we're not really going to have a good idea of how PoP is going to be handled in the rest of the line because so far there hasn't that much variety (and even less if you're waiting to see how NA is going to be integrated into the mix!).

If I see a Star Sister I will be speechless, out of all the POP figures I think those 3 girls would require the most work (well 2 out of the 3) and tooling since I doubt it could be really shared with any other characters.

[oulala]

Man, although I'm self-exiled from the .org, Val kindly asked me to chime in and bring some wisodm to this mess. I read a few pages, then I decided there is nothing I can say without offending anyone (not that I want to, but I know I would)
All the talk about female buck and sexism just sounds crazy to me.
I think Dynamo of Eternia addressed almost everything and he's 100% right, I don't think I need to repeat it, but if you want to read something that is realistic and reasonble go read his post on page. 4.


Other than that, since I'm now more interested in just the historical and creative aspects of MOTU, I want to address something oulala just said:

The harsh reality (at least for POP heaters, assuming they actually exist) is that the Horde were originally intended for POP, and they have always been intended for POP.
Filmation developed the characters for the POP cartoon.
It's a fact.
You want proof? I have seen proof, and you'll have them soon enough I hope

thanks Emiliano! Just to clarify, I meant to write that Horde was in POP, NOT MOTU'. The NOT of 'NOT POP, not MOTU' was a typo, and I've since edited the post for clarity.
but I think the rest of my post was pretty clear that yeah, to me, the horde was essentially the bad guys developped in the Bible on the She-ra Show.

As a writer for cartoon TV shows, I can tell you those of you who aren't familiar with the process that a bible for a show is probably written 1 or 2 years before the first episode is completed. When it's not 4 to 5 years before everything is green lit! Meaning that the Horde must have already been developped for She-ra a long time before Secret of the Sword.

Emiliano, I am totally using your post as my automatic quote on my user profile! That will save me so much time writing long posts everytime that debate pops back into the forums!

[MegaGearMax]

Actually, you're wrong. If you re-read the WTFWTK answers, they did promise dramatic unique tooling on some of the POP characters. Mini-Comic and toy line designs were supposed to have a real chance of being made in this 'everyone is possible as long as we have the rights' line, but they've sort of been backpedaling a bit as of late. And all of this is wrapped up in the denials of a conspiracy. So yes, "I'll believe it when I see it" or rather believe it when some of these promises are fulfilled.

But they could be coming eventually. The fans have to wait for 200X versions of Adam, Evil-Lyn, Randor, Sorceress and He-Man--figures that have been mentioned many times as possibilities, but we haven't seen yet.

[Horde08]

Well, I guess the DCUC problem hasn't really been fixed, because I bought Star Sapphire from Green Lantern Classics wave 2 and she has that same problem.

I've purchased 3 and none of mine have that problem...

[Eternian Poet]

Um - what's this thread aboot again?

[RockinHard]

Um - what's this thread aboot again?

About how Mattel are racists. I mean, they give us that black Royal Guard just to shut us up. But we know what's up! Where's Netossa, Clamp Champ, and Dekker? Where are the unique parts that should be debuting on those figures? Racists! They are so racist that---wait a minute . . .

[Mye-Kah B]

The problem is everyone has a different oppinion and it's hard to find a mid ground and make everyone happy.

For me example. For the POP stuff, I want to see it based mostly on the toon. In fact untill I saw Catra I was thinking I was going to pass on the POP figures, seeing Catra done as she was and given me the drive to look foward to more figures.

Back in the day I really disliked the POP figures design. Not as much as they were like dolls, but rather the outfits were made too girlish with lace and such. If you took the cloth cloths off you were left with a pretty flat looking sculpted on outfit. I opted to buy some Golden Girl figures and actually used Golden Girl as She-Ra.
I always thought the cartoon designs were much better and look foward to more POP figures and more MOTU figures that lean more toward the cartoon design.

This is just my oppinion though, There are going to be others that have the total oppisite view on it. So Mattel has to find a good comprimise.

[Count Marzo]

About how Mattel are racists. I mean, they give us that black Royal Guard just to shut us up. But we know what's up! Where's Netossa, Clamp Champ, and Dekker? Where are the unique parts that should be debuting on those figures? Racists! They are so racist that---wait a minute . . .

They're homophobic too, just take a look at Bow's crotch in the proper lighting!!

[Tallstar]

If I see a Star Sister I will be speechless, out of all the POP figures I think those 3 girls would require the most work (well 2 out of the 3) and tooling since I doubt it could be really shared with any other characters.

It'll definitely be interesting to see how they approach Jewelstar and Tallstar's complex design. Even though they promised a "100%" unique tool on those gals (like Ram-Man), I'm guessing they'll find a way to incorporate most of the parts into other characters...somehow.

But they could be coming eventually. The fans have to wait for 200X versions of Adam, Evil-Lyn, Randor, Sorceress and He-Man--figures that have been mentioned many times as possibilities, but we haven't seen yet.

Hopefully the rest of the applicable classic toy line designs are still on the table. I get worried hearing some of the official commentary on the subject.

[Emiliano]

I'm just surprised by some of what you're saying. "Bringing wisdom to this mess" and deciding that someone is 100% right, without having read the responses to those comments? I'm going to pretend that you didn't call everything I had to say "unreasonable."

See, I told you you were going to be offended, but I swear I didn't want to
I didn't decide Dynamo is 100% right, it's just that what he said makes sense and it's reasonable and stick the reality.
It's just how toys work, and he nailed it.
I can't tell you he's wrong to please you, what he says is true to what I know about the brand and the toy industry's logistics (ARGH, NOT THAT WORD!!)

Plus I didn't say all you have to say is unreasonable.
I said that most of what you said here is unreasonable.
Again, what do you want me to say? I could use the same "IMO" formula, but it's true, what you said about the female bucks is just not true.

Actually, you're wrong. If you re-read the WTFWTK answers, they did promise dramatic unique tooling on some of the POP characters. Mini-Comic and toy line designs were supposed to have a real chance of being made in this 'everyone is possible as long as we have the rights' line, but they've sort of been backpedaling a bit as of late. And all of this is wrapped up in the denials of a conspiracy. So yes, "I'll believe it when I see it" or rather believe it when some of these promises are fulfilled.

One great unreasonable example is wanting unique tooling just for the sake of proving Mattel cares about POP too.
That simply isn't how this line works and I'm surprised after 3 years this is not clear.
They will do unique tooling WHEN and IF (ARGH! AGAIN!!!!) a specific character requires it.

[Crusader]

Man, although I'm self-exiled from the .org, Val kindly asked me to chime in and bring some wisodm to this mess.

There is one that could unite them. One who could reclaim the throne of the Org. He turned from that path a long time ago. He has chosen exile.

Emiliano, you are the chosen one !!!

[Lord Anubis]

LOL Everyones arguing over toys. Not only is the line nostalgic, but the sandbox fights are too. God I love Masters, it just keeps giving

No but seriously guys.... we dont have a Sorceress figure yet.... isnt that what really matters right now???? EH EH EH!?