DC Reboots Universe.

[Mr. Shokoti]

Have you actually read those Golden Age comics, or are you just taking this off of seeing a few panels out of context here and there? Martson actually advocated that men submit to women.

Yes I have and find them far more "sexist" than this idea that Wonder Woman's current owners are sexist because they have the audacity to change her origin. I also have read about Martson, his life, & his opinions and still find his Wonder Woman to be a superhero Betty Page.

And another thing about Marston, I know his granddaughter. I think it's very disingenuous of you to cast shade and judgment on their family relationship, making it sound more purient than the actual situation was. Shame.

Let's see. You know his granddaughter and feel Wonder Woman should be treated not as an equal but better than any other superhero. Shame me all you want, but I feel you are already biased. No matter what I or someone at DC says, we're going to be pointed out as vile & women hating. I'm sorry but I don't feel his "family relationship" was very different from a polygamous marriage or an in-house gumad. There are a great deal of people, men & women alike, who find those situations to be extremely sexist. You're not going to find a woman with multiple husbands. If you did, she'd be considered loose.

Talking to her and her father, they talk about what a loving environment their home life was - where women's issues and equality are still important to their family.

This is why I've never been involved in the past when people cried sexism about Mattel, ToyGuru, or the 4H. No matter what I say, my words will be twisted to "prove" what a pig I am. This is so far off topic anyways which I fully take credit for. I'm done even arguing about it. I just find the idea inane that Wonder Woman is so far above every other superhero that if DC dare change her costume or origin(which has been done at least once to almost every superhero out there), they are sexist.

And about the relateability thing, I understand it I just don't get it cause it's never been me. Probably because typically when they try to do something more relateable to me I focused more on what they got wrong. The other issue is how before the first issue came out people were implying less relateable and more superior with Miles Morales to Peter Parker. I just got done reading several 80s Spider-man stories I imagined him being black for a few pages and it worked.

Besides the fact that I'm never going to be able to relate to a person with superpowers who puts on a costume & bravely risks their life by fighting crime, most of the characters I love are unrelatable to me; a single, white, straight male. I can't find myself able to relate to Superman, Swamp Thing, Blue Devil, Incredible Hulk, Supergirl, Batgirl, Luke Cage, or The Thing, but I still love them. Although, I do understand that minorities(whether we're talking race, sexuality, or religion) feel left out when there aren't characters who reflect them. They deserve to have heroes who better reflect their lives, but I just feel the way DC or Marvel usually go about doing it are wrong & failures waiting to happen.

[Adam_Prince of Eternia]

I doubt that's the intention.
They are probably just trying to find a way to actually sell Wonder Woman comics.

For as much as people claim to love Wonder Woman, her comics never seem to sell very well.
I mean, she's in the DC "trinity" of most important characters.
But while Batman and Superman have 2-4 titles each and a "family" of 7+ books,
Wonder Woman can barely sustain one monthly title.

I don't care one way or the other about the change.
'Cause if I'm being honest, I don't care one way or the other about Wonder Woman.
But I think it's pretty presumptuous to assume that this change is about a fundamental, organizational sexism rather than just another (probably unsuccessful and misguided) attempt to start fresh and try to sell this character to comic book readers.

I did not state that there is a conscious, intentional, or organized effort to make sexist changes to Wonder Woman, only that the changes themselves are sexist.

The problem of sexism is that it rarely takes the form of overt discrimination that most have learned to easily recognize but more often takes the form of an institutional bias that favors men over women.

it is for this reason that most will recognize allowing Wonder Woman to be secretary but refusing her membership to the JLA as sexism but fewer will recognize other attempts to "legitimize" the character as sexism.

Notions that Wonder Woman cannot dress as a woman, i.e. wear a skirt or tights, if she is to be "taken seriously," as if she can only be powerful in pants; that Wonder Woman must be similar in stature to Superman if she is to be similar to him in strength, as if her magical strength has anything to do with her height or her muscles; or that Wonder Woman must be a demigod if she is to be equal to Batman, as if being a princess, ambassador, and superhero is not enough.

When writers propose changes like those listed above, they demonstrate that they do not understand the character or what she represents: and that is the reason Wonder Woman comics do not sell well; instead of understanding and embracing the character, writers attempt to explain her away or change her to appeal to the fickle attitudes of ever-changing demographics, writing her as if she is Buffy, Xena, or a popular male character, the success of whom they are trying to replicate.

Perhaps if writers stopped pitching everything and the kitchen sink at the character and seeing what sticks and focused on strong, feminist stories, they would sell more Wonder Woman comics.

[wyldman11]

But her power set is the same now, she was imbued with those powers by the gods before, one of which was male, and could easily have been considered a demigod before because of all that.

The wanting to change her outfit to pants is because strippers started using her outfit in their routines because of her popularity in male fantasy. And because of that people go around saying she is wearing a strippers outfit.

At best you can read sexism into those things. I have read her comic off and on over the years, she tends to suffer the same issue as most comics these days they are mediocre and cost too much for the short about of entertainment you get out of them. Her comic doesn't sell better because a large number of the people who read comics fantasize about being the character, and well most guys don't fantasize about being a woman of any kind.

You want to make an argument for sexism in comics based on these changes focus on Starfire. Not sure about Karen Star yet, she currently is depowered and is Mr. Terrific's girlfriend (may be or maybe the opposite of sexism). We also went from Wonder Woman, Batgirl, Power Girl, Supergirl, Zatanna, and I think one other ongoing title to Wonder Woman, Batgirl, Supergirl, and Voodoo. Huntress is a mini series so doesn't count in that regards.

[Kevenn]

Another example of why I rarely bother to talk about Wonder Woman with people not educated about the character or gender awareness. Time to use my ignore button.

[guitargod694]

When writers propose changes like those listed above, they demonstrate that they do not understand the character or what she represents: and that is the reason Wonder Woman comics do not sell well; instead of understanding and embracing the character, writers attempt to explain her away or change her to appeal to the fickle attitudes of ever-changing demographics, writing her as if she is Buffy, Xena, or a popular male character, the success of whom they are trying to replicate.

True... I can see how you would think the people working at DC comics today make ill-advised changes to characters.
They are the same people that gave the nigh-invulnerable Superman knee pads.
But the comic-reader demographic is not one I would call ever-changing.

Perhaps if writers stopped pitching everything and the kitchen sink at the character and seeing what sticks and focused on strong, feminist stories, they would sell more Wonder Woman comics.

I seriously doubt it.

[Mr. Shokoti]

Another example of why I rarely bother to talk about Wonder Woman with people not educated about the character or gender awareness. Time to use my ignore button.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...1_182441_n.jpg

I said I was done arguing, but now that I'm on ignore, I'm just talking to myself and the other forum members here.

I don't get annoyed when people bring up sexism. I find it exasperating when people cry sexism, racism, etc when it really isn't there(especially considering we're talking about a fictional character). That sort of crying wolf makes it that much harder for legitimate claims to be taken seriously in the future.

I seriously doubt it.

Wonder Woman doesn't sell since she's more iconic than popular(Superman is similar to a lesser extent). Most comic readers these days are adult males and a lot of them don't have much interest in her. Maybe if the people who come out of the woodwork to say "sexism"(like Gloria Steinem) every time something is done to Wonder Woman actually tried to get more of their friends, family, etc to buy her comics, she'd be more popular.

[guitargod694]

Wonder Woman doesn't sell since she's more iconic than popular(Superman is similar to a lesser extent). Most comic readers these days are adult males and a lot of them don't have much interest in her. Maybe if the people who come out of the woodwork to say "sexism"(like Gloria Steinem) every time something is done to Wonder Woman actually tried to get more of their friends, family, etc to buy her comics, she'd be more popular.

Yeah, I think that's the problem.
As a character and an icon, she is quite popular.
I just don't think there's a lot of cross-over between the people that love Wonder Woman and the people that buy comics.

[Mr. Shokoti]

I'm not going to have the money or time to keep getting all 52 issues(along with the now 2 extra mini-series each week), but I did plan on getting all of them for at least the first 2 months. I've only read 2 of October's books so far.

Action Comics #2 As much as I didn't like the first issue, I loved this one(although I still am not a fan of Rags Morales). It gave us a new take on Superman that still felt like the guy I knew(minus a threat of snapping someone's neck), had a bunch of easter eggs for Superman fans, and it didn't feel like Morrison was doing his writing shorthand trick of leaving out info thus making a simple book more confusing than it need be. Here's hoping #3 is just as good.

Suicide Squad #2 I think I'm done with this book.

[MegaGearMax]

I did not state that there is a conscious, intentional, or organized effort to make sexist changes to Wonder Woman, only that the changes themselves are sexist.

The problem of sexism is that it rarely takes the form of overt discrimination that most have learned to easily recognize but more often takes the form of an institutional bias that favors men over women.

it is for this reason that most will recognize allowing Wonder Woman to be secretary but refusing her membership to the JLA as sexism but fewer will recognize other attempts to "legitimize" the character as sexism.

Notions that Wonder Woman cannot dress as a woman, i.e. wear a skirt or tights, if she is to be "taken seriously," as if she can only be powerful in pants; that Wonder Woman must be similar in stature to Superman if she is to be similar to him in strength, as if her magical strength has anything to do with her height or her muscles; or that Wonder Woman must be a demigod if she is to be equal to Batman, as if being a princess, ambassador, and superhero is not enough.

Nope. That's because Joe Average sees the very pop culture and iconic Wonder Woman costume as a stripper costume, thus it is seen as ridiculous. It's the same idea with underwear outside of spandex with the make heroes. DC got rid of it because non-fans have been saying that it looked ridiculous for quite some time now.

When writers propose changes like those listed above, they demonstrate that they do not understand the character or what she represents: and that is the reason Wonder Woman comics do not sell well; instead of understanding and embracing the character, writers attempt to explain her away or change her to appeal to the fickle attitudes of ever-changing demographics, writing her as if she is Buffy, Xena, or a popular male character, the success of whom they are trying to replicate.

Perhaps if writers stopped pitching everything and the kitchen sink at the character and seeing what sticks and focused on strong, feminist stories, they would sell more Wonder Woman comics.

Maybe that would work for Wonder Woman die hard fans, but it wouldn't attract new readers. Wonder Woman is a title for a niche audience, not one of it's strongest titles as DC would like.

[wyldman11]

I liked Action Comics 2, and picked up Suicide Squad to rubberneck. Skipping the most of the other titles I didn't care for though.

Huntress was great.
Red Lanterns 2 this might be ok for a back up story or a mini, not an ongoing. They did hint before that the Red Lantern's weren't exactly evil just super angry.
Penguin wasn't bad
Justice League International, I will give a few more issues to. It felt like the first two issues could have been told in one issue.

I still have to read this weeks titles though.

Nope. That's because Joe Average sees the very pop culture and iconic Wonder Woman costume as a stripper costume, thus it is seen as ridiculous. It's the same idea with underwear outside of spandex with the make heroes. DC got rid of it because non-fans have been saying that it looked ridiculous for quite some time now.

I would say it's quite vocal non reader type that says it. I would say most people don't really care or like her the way she is but because they don't buy the title and don't speak in favor of the character it seems like the more negative side is the majority.

[MegaGearMax]

I would say it's quite vocal non reader type that says it. I would say most people don't really care or like her the way she is but because they don't buy the title and don't speak in favor of the character it seems like the more negative side is the majority.

Yeah. Wonder Woman looking like a stripper is probably a criticism of a kid who plays Call of Duty or Gears of War would think, rather than a comic book reader who is regularly exposed to superhero costumes and their conventions (capes, leg pouches, spandex, swimsuits, cleavage, high heels, bright colors, domino masks, etc.). These kids don't buy Wonder Woman and don't understand the character, nor have they read her long history and probably wouldn't care to. But they WOULD understand Kratos from God of War, so that's someone who has something in common with Wonder Woman--a badass Demigod warrior that battles mythological monsters.

[wyldman11]

Yeah. Wonder Woman looking like a stripper is probably a criticism of a kid who plays Call of Duty or Gears of War would think, rather than a comic book reader who is regularly exposed to superhero costumes and their conventions (capes, leg pouches, spandex, swimsuits, cleavage, high heels, bright colors, domino masks, etc.). These kids don't buy Wonder Woman and don't understand the character, nor have they read her long history and probably wouldn't care to. But they WOULD understand Kratos from God of War, so that's someone who has something in common with Wonder Woman--a badass Demigod warrior that battles mythological monsters.

I would add in Frat boys but personally I think the difference between what you said and I what I said is one might be legal to drink, drive, and vote.

[hopewell]

"I find it exasperating when people cry sexism, racism, etc when it really isn't there(especially considering we're talking about a fictional character)."

I have to disagree with this thought Shokoti. Racism, sexism, bias of all kinds is ALWAYS there. If you agree with the more postmodern, liberal belief, that is, that we are all biased against different groups to various degrees. What matters is that we try to be as cognizant of these reactions as possible and try to correct them if possible. In other words, acknowledge your biases and you can better contain them and grow as a person.

Now, fictional characters are still written by real people who can easily let their biases and prejudices sink into the stories they write. Plenty of racist fictional characters have been created over time. Yes there was such a thing as a mexican bandit. But I dont want to eat a bag of chips with a Frito Bandito on it. That offends me. And gives fodder for truly racist people to continue stereotypes. Thus the character was removed.

It's completely possible for writers to fetishize Wonder Woman and make the main character of their story a single, white male. It's not racist but it's certainly the writers painting their world view into comics. It's also business savvy. Single white males are the main consumer of sci-fi, fantasy, comics, action etc, it's big money and protagonists are usually single, white and male as a result. Other than Blade, I think the main character is almost always a white male and the supporting heroes are usually women or minorities. Oh except for She-Ra.

But come on, if Clamp Champ were the main character of Masters of the Universe, it wouldn't have sold like it did. Not because the children of the 80's were racist, but the average consumer of that kind of media is a white male. Women and minorities are pushed to the back because they simply don't need to be marketed to as much. In my opinion and they don't sell.

When Chow Yun Fat was marketed to the U.S. his movie posters always covered his eyes with sunglasses. There's a reason for that.A very deliberate act by a marketing team trying to get white americans to show up to the film. Xenophobia is alive and well. Racism is not our grandparen's problem. It lives to this day and inside each of us.

I'm 35. My grandfather had to shower after the white miners finished showering in Globe,AZ. That was NOT that long ago. You can't tell me some comic book writers are incapable of putting sexism and racism in their books innocently and accidentally. We're ALL racist.

[wyldman11]

Interestingly enough, many TV producers over the last several years have explicitly said that they made changes to a TV show because studies show women don't like it, even with shows where the main protagonist is male. This also why the typically have the lead character in all this have a romance going. Women don't want to be the male lead they want to be with them, it's the same issue in rock music and while male vocalists are more common. Guys want to be them, women to be with them.

To the point that men are typically the last to choose what programming is watched in a household, it goes mom, or children, then dad unless sports is involved. Which to not create competition many networks limit new content on game nights. And because of that most music and TV are actually aimed more at women but without pushing men to the side.

90% of the time I hear a husband say 'we watch' I know they mean, my wife watches and I just want to spend time with her. I think the last stat said women in a household choose 75% o the TV programming.

Movies and comics actually try to target individual demographics, for specific titles. The majority of superhero comics focuses on a male demographic that is typically younger and single.


----
more comics follow up
Batgirl 2 was a more cohesive story than the first issue, much as I expected. Still kind of weird reading a less confident Barbara.

Batman and Robin 2, still focusing on the relationship and interaction between Bruce and Damien. I think they are setting up for a good story though.

Demon Knights 2, picks right up where the first issue left off and kept going.

Green Lantern 2, wanting to see where they take this for sure.

I have Superboy 2, Suicide Squad and The Shade left to read. Like I said holding off reading Frankenstein and Animal Man, might do the same for Swamp Thing. Other titles not mentioned I am probably not reading or forgot to mention.

[Uki]

Hopewell, your thoughts and points are valid and well stated, but I do have to agree with Shokoti too: the "isms" are cards that get played far too often, especially in situations where the problem has only perpetuated itself thanks to people who make money off of "solving" these social injustices. True, racism and sexism do and always will exist, but they are also an effective weapon for greedy "activists."

In any event, the thread about the (awesome) DC New 52 is getting derailed a bit here, and I think we should all try to steer it back on track before we tumble into the Tar Swamp!

[Patrick Bateman]

^ This gentleman summed it up nicely and I will re-state what I stated several pages ago: This forum is NOT there to discuss topics of sexual/political/racial nature. If you want to discuss theses aspects to the DCU re-launch, please do so in the appropriate forum, not in here

[wyldman11]

And I appreciate the leniency this time as it was at times a bit of a struggle to discuss some issues without using certain things that would have pushed it that way. But at least it kept the elephant out of the room. Almost said that in my last post, but moving on.

But so far most of the books I liked the first week or were willing to give a second try are working out for me. I put off reading Superboy 2 last night because it looked kind of verbose. Suicide Squad I am following up more to be sure than anything. It is interesting reading other forums and the slightly different reactions.

[Uki]

That's racist against elephants, wyldman11!

I still need to get this past week's comics. What came out?

[Mr. Shokoti]

Hopewell, your thoughts and points are valid and well stated, but I do have to agree with Shokoti too: the "isms" are cards that get played far too often, especially in situations where the problem has only perpetuated itself thanks to people who make money off of "solving" these social injustices. True, racism and sexism do and always will exist, but they are also an effective weapon for greedy "activists."

Very well stated and I agree 100%(and not just because you agreed with me first).

In any event, the thread about the (awesome) DC New 52 is getting derailed a bit here, and I think we should all try to steer it back on track before we tumble into the Tar Swamp!

^ This gentleman summed it up nicely and I will re-state what I stated several pages ago: This forum is NOT there to discuss topics of sexual/political/racial nature. If you want to discuss theses aspects to the DCU re-launch, please do so in the appropriate forum, not in here

I'm sorry.

[wyldman11]

That's racist against elephants, wyldman11!

I still need to get this past week's comics. What came out?

Batgirl #2
Batman and Robin #2
Batwoman #2
Deathstroke #2
Demon Knights #2
Frankenstien, Agent of S.H.A.D.E. #2
Green Lantern #2
Grifter #2
Legion Lost #2
Mister Terrrific #2
Resurrection Man #2
Suicide Squad #2
Superboy #2

Greatest Adventure 1 of 6
The adventures of Garbage Man and Tanga from WEIRD WORLDS continue – and now, these offbeat heroes are joined by the Robotman, who has a disturbing knack for self-destruction.

Shade 1 of 12

[Mr. Shokoti]

I'm going to be so upset if this is true...

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/10/...ate-of-krypto/

...I figured it was probably going to happen since so many of the New 52 read like a cross between a 90's comic and what passes for superheroes at JoeyQ's Marvel, but I was hoping I was wrong. Taking away Superman & Batman's trunks, making the books as violent as a Saw movie, and getting rid of fun characters like Ambush Bug & Krypto is not going to make DC sales skyrocket.

[wyldman11]

So the writer of Suicide Squad just discovered the internet and decided to make the dialogue 50% internet catch phrases? None of the characters felt like they had a voice, they were just a stream of cliches.

I'm going to be so upset if this is true...

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/10/...ate-of-krypto/

...I figured it was probably going to happen since so many of the New 52 read like a cross between a 90's comic and what passes for superheroes at JoeyQ's Marvel, but I was hoping I was wrong. Taking away Superman & Batman's trunks, making the books as violent as a Saw movie, and getting rid of fun characters like Ambush Bug & Krypto is not going to make DC sales skyrocket.

I didn't even make the connection that the animal was krypto.

[Mr. Shokoti]

I didn't even make the connection that the animal was krypto.

I didn't think it was either, but I'll still be shocked if Krypto is kept around. Didio has already gone on record saying Ambush Bug is gone. Krypto seems to fit somewhere between him & Superman's red trunks; a goofy character that people who don't even read comics mock.

[wyldman11]

Captain Marvel will be appearing in a backup story in Justice League
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansit.../news/?a=48251

[Mr. Shokoti]

That's good to hear about Shazam.

I'm not down on this New 52 since there are a lot of books I like. I'm just nervous the more & more some of the books look like something from Marvel. If DC goes that way, my superhero well will have dried up almost completely.