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Thread: DC Reboots Universe.

  1. #976
    Heroic Warrior wyldman11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Shokoti View Post
    Here's hoping, after the Mattel & DC Direct toys based on the new costumes fail(I'll be shocked if they don't), DC will think about going back to the classic costumes. I have nothing against new designs(I like Tim Drake's new costume as well as his One Year Later) but most of these are either the same as they were before with the addition of new colors and/or a bunch of unnecessary lines or bland designs that look like they are worried more about what they'll look like in live action than on the comics page(something Marvel has been guilty of for the past decade).
    The thing I have found about the 'realistic' designs is how many cosplayers have done a bang up job recreating many of these costumes over the years. Sure would some of the still be at least someone impractical in a crime fighting situation? Yeah, but considering many of those characters are bullet proof and the ladies could easily be wearing a pair of skin colored tights would avoid most complaints.

    Heck on the subject of Power Girl Carrie Keagan shows it can work considering she is built like the character, and there was a fan film that did the same.

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    Last edited by wyldman11; February 11, 2012 at 09:22am. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  2. #977
    The power has returned MOTUfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    I hope DC decides to go back to the old looks anyway.
    I hope DC goes back to the old universe sooner rather than later all these changes are horrid, now with the changes to the Huntress and Power Girl and the rapid declining of sales monthly.
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  3. #978
    Heroic Warrior wyldman11's Avatar
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    The good thing is DC knows a way to boost sales, the bad news is they don't know how to keep them up. Which part of that reason probably has to do with the way they boosted sales.
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  4. #979
    Heroic Warrior Dr Kain's Avatar
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    I honestly would rather they keep the new designs for most of the characters. It is the writing that matters, not the looks. Or are you saying that you would rather have your Aquaman go back to being a loser?
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  5. #980
    Heroic Warrior wyldman11's Avatar
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    Aquaman was never really a loser in the comics. While I am indifferent to most of the new costumes, I do see what they are saying some of it was change just to change because some marvel zombies think DC smells like poo poo. Really most of the writing isn't much better then it was before the reboot, which is part of the reason sales are going back down.
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  6. #981
    Widget Wrestler Mr. Shokoti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyldman11 View Post
    Aquaman was never really a loser in the comics. While I am indifferent to most of the new costumes, I do see what they are saying some of it was change just to change because some marvel zombies think DC smells like poo poo. Really most of the writing isn't much better then it was before the reboot, which is part of the reason sales are going back down.
    I agree with you about Aquaman(he's lasted since the Golden Age, has always been one of the main members of the JLA, & is a household name) and the lack of improvement in the writing(there are definitely good books, but it seems like they are more worried about keeping friends employed & editors obeyed than giving the best books they can deliver).

    I don't know if it's because we have an ex-Marvel EIC at DC or if it's because they are trying to get Marvel fans to try their books, but DC has lost a lot of what makes them unique in recent years; "classic" costumes, a universe that isn't bleak & depressing, not a lot of gore, and not worrying about making every comic "movie adaptation ready". Outside of keeping the secret identities and still having a few heroes who don't going around killing, they're not much different than today's Marvel imo(outside of the fact that I prefer their characters).
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  7. #982
    Heroic Warrior wyldman11's Avatar
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    I agree there are good books, then a lot that are decent enough we can argue that we think they are good.

    Aquaman has only been seen as a loser in the real world and that was largely because of Superfriends, combined with internet backlash from people who say they read comics but what they meant to say was I watched Superfriends, and Amazing Spider-man and other comic based cartoons growing up. Brave and the Bold has done quite a bit to help Aquaman's public image.
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  8. #983
    Heroic Master of Puzzles Thatman's Avatar
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    I definitely think there's reboot stuff that works. But on the whole, I'd rather they do a Reverse-Flashpoint, or something, go back to the old universe but incorporate some of the elements from DCNu.

    As much as I was opposed to it originally, I really do like having Babs back as Batgirl. I love Aquaman's book. (I'm also really digging All-Star Western, actually). The new design on Gentleman Ghost is neat...there's a bunch of heres-and-theres that are worthwhile, but on the whole, I'd really like to go back to the pre-Nu world with some tweaks.

    Personally, the majority of the costumes were better pre-Nu, and Shokoti's right - the world itself feels off, more like the Marvel Universe than what I've come to love about DC.
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  9. #984
    Widget Wrestler Mr. Shokoti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyldman11 View Post
    Aquaman has only been seen as a loser in the real world and that was largely because of Superfriends, combined with internet backlash from people who say they read comics but what they meant to say was I watched Superfriends, and Amazing Spider-man and other comic based cartoons growing up. Brave and the Bold has done quite a bit to help Aquaman's public image.
    I blame Jerry Seinfeld and other hack comedians who used him in their material. I remember when I was a little kid, I had a short routine involving cereal mascots(I never wanted to be a stand-up, but I used it to make my friends laugh) that was just as hacky. Unfortunately things like that along with Super Friends(as much as I love that show, I don't think any of the heroes came off as edgy or cool in it) are some of the reasons he is a household name while Namor, who was created a short time before him, is practically unknown to anyone outside of comics.

    I'm curious what the consensus on the new costumes is. I don't frequent comic forums anymore and, outside of this place, only have a few people I talk to about comics. Personally, 99% of them I don't like. I do know that, in the past, DC has listened to their fans a great deal more than Marvel has(hell, Wonder Woman lost her pants before her first issue of the New 52 was even released). I know that Jim Lee, one of the bigwigs at DC now, is responsible for most of them, but if most people are unhappy, I wonder if we'll see them go back. It does worry me that the new costumes not only are showing up in merchandise & ads, but the upcoming Superman movie features a costume a lot closer to Jim Lee's design than the one we've seen for most of the past 70+ years.
    Last edited by Mr. Shokoti; February 16, 2012 at 01:39pm. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  10. #985
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Kain View Post
    I honestly would rather they keep the new designs for most of the characters. It is the writing that matters, not the looks. Or are you saying that you would rather have your Aquaman go back to being a loser?
    Wouldn't the way Aquaman's character is written have more do with whether or not he is a "loser" than which design they go with?
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  11. #986
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Kain View Post
    I honestly would rather they keep the new designs for most of the characters. It is the writing that matters, not the looks. Or are you saying that you would rather have your Aquaman go back to being a loser?
    I hope we someday may see Aquaman throwing a Polar bear again at some crooks
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  12. #987
    Heroic Warrior wyldman11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Shokoti View Post
    I blame Jerry Seinfeld and other hack comedians who used him in their material. I remember when I was a little kid, I had a short routine involving cereal mascots(I never wanted to be a stand-up, but I used it to make my friends laugh) that was just as hacky. Unfortunately things like that along with Super Friends(as much as I love that show, I don't think any of the heroes came off as edgy or cool in it) are some of the reasons he is a household name while Namor, who was created a short time before him, is practically unknown to anyone outside of comics.
    I will admit to oversimplifying the matter, leaving out comedians who pushed it.

    About the costumes I honestly had no problems with the previous ones, in fact I liked many of them. Some new ones I don't mind but still prefer the original or what was being used before. I would say I dislike many, like the ones where they put in lines for no real reason other then to have lines in them. I don't like Harley's new look, and I don't understand the need to change it really as an example.
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  13. #988
    Master of DVDs BCI Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Shokoti View Post
    I'm curious what the consensus on the new costumes is. I don't frequent comic forums anymore and, outside of this place, only have a few people I talk to about comics. Personally, 99% of them I don't like. I do know that, in the past, DC has listened to their fans a great deal more than Marvel has(hell, Wonder Woman lost her pants before her first issue of the New 52 was even released). I know that Jim Lee, one of the bigwigs at DC now, is responsible for most of them, but if most people are unhappy, I wonder if we'll see them go back. It does worry me that the new costumes not only are showing up in merchandise & ads, but the upcoming Superman movie features a costume a lot closer to Jim Lee's design than the one we've seen for most of the past 70+ years.
    I doubt it matters what comic fans think. It seems that now comics are mostly a "loss leader" and the real value in the characters is in other media - especially movies. So it no surprise that the comic book costumes now include so many of the "details" that end up being added when adapted to movies.

  14. #989
    Heroic Master of 200X MegaGearMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Shokoti View Post
    I'm curious what the consensus on the new costumes is. I don't frequent comic forums anymore and, outside of this place, only have a few people I talk to about comics. Personally, 99% of them I don't like. I do know that, in the past, DC has listened to their fans a great deal more than Marvel has(hell, Wonder Woman lost her pants before her first issue of the New 52 was even released). I know that Jim Lee, one of the bigwigs at DC now, is responsible for most of them, but if most people are unhappy, I wonder if we'll see them go back. It does worry me that the new costumes not only are showing up in merchandise & ads, but the upcoming Superman movie features a costume a lot closer to Jim Lee's design than the one we've seen for most of the past 70+ years.
    I don't like the new costumes and prefer the iconic outfits. I think the New 52 DC Costumes seem to be a response to various criticisms leveled against those characters over the years so that they can be prepped for movies and television. The loss of underwear on the outside for Superman, Batman and Aquaman, Wonder Woman being more warrior-like and almost wearing pants, Power Girl losing her cleavage window for a generic superhero outfit, Black Canary and Zatanna losing their distinctive looks for generic battle armor, Green Arrow looking like Smallville version, Captain Atom looking like Dr. Manhattan, Batgirl is Barbara Gordon again....

    I love Jim Lee and his art, but when you fiddle with a distinctive look too much, you could lose what the original outfit was trying to do entirely. It's like Classicizing 200X looks.

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    The only DC I read is GL and GL corp so I'm not super fussed.
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  16. #991
    Widget Wrestler Mr. Shokoti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    I love Jim Lee and his art, but when you fiddle with a distinctive look too much, you could lose what the original outfit was trying to do entirely. It's like Classicizing 200X looks.
    Or 2002ing the iconic MOTU toy designs.

    Jim Lee, for me, is DC's answer to Olivier Coipel; a good artist who is awful at costume designs. Actually, Jim Lee might be even worse at it what with all the lines he added to the costumes for no reason at all.
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  17. #992
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    Regarding costumes, it varies from character to character and while Jim Lee was the guiding hand behind the redesigns, the extent of his involvement also varied from book to book. I know Mikel Janin had very little input from Lee on his JLDark costumes. I think the general edict was just that Zatanna had to lose the fishnets/tuxedo costume. I was wary of Birds of Prey, but I think their costumes look fantastic and realistic. I love that they kept Dinah's fishnets motif, but just adapted it to a suit of battle armor. Every woman on this team, including Poison Ivy, is covered from the neck down, but they still manage to look beautiful and sexy. Power Girl's looks awful. It might look better as I see it more, but I kind of doubt it.

    Wonder Woman's is just off. It's not different enough from her original costume to seem warranted. The switch from gold to silver makes no sense, especially since so many people question why she is dressed in an American flag inspired suit when she isn't from America. This makes her look MORE like an American flag.

    Flash looks okay. Green Lantern and Aquaman's suits are barely changed at all. I don't like Batman and Superman losing the trunks. They took Batman's away a few years back, but he eventually got them back, so I'm hoping enough people insist that super heroes need the trunks on the outside of their tights and they magically reappear. I mainly miss them as just a design element. They add that extra contrast to keep their suits visually interesting. Much better than a bunch of pointless fussy lines going everywhere.

  18. #993
    Heroic Master of 200X MegaGearMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Shokoti View Post
    Or 2002ing the iconic MOTU toy designs.
    ERA WAR™!!!!! Nowadays the 200X looks are Spider-Man's black costume, the Gray Hulk or Wolverine's orange and brown. An alternate look, but not

    Quote Originally Posted by Wonderboy_JMB View Post
    Regarding costumes, it varies from character to character and while Jim Lee was the guiding hand behind the redesigns, the extent of his involvement also varied from book to book. I know Mikel Janin had very little input from Lee on his JLDark costumes. I think the general edict was just that Zatanna had to lose the fishnets/tuxedo costume. I was wary of Birds of Prey, but I think their costumes look fantastic and realistic. I love that they kept Dinah's fishnets motif, but just adapted it to a suit of battle armor. Every woman on this team, including Poison Ivy, is covered from the neck down, but they still manage to look beautiful and sexy.
    I hate Dinah's costume now. At least with the classic costume, you know what her gimmick is, just like Zatanna's old costume.
    I think it's the 2012 equivalent of adding Liefeldian shoulderpads and pouches with generic spandex.
    Last edited by MegaGearMax; February 18, 2012 at 01:59pm.

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  19. #994
    Widget Wrestler Mr. Shokoti's Avatar
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    I think it's insane that DC felt the need to change to change the costumes either to lure in new fans or to make the characters ready for TV & movie adaptations.

    While some people may have complained about the DC costumes, I honestly believe a lot of them, if not most, did so because they didn't like DC and not because the costumes were chasing them away from reading the comics. Considering Batman is DC's best selling character, I don't think his losing the trunks is going to make him sell that much better.

    As for adaptations in other media, there is no reason in my mind for them to force "real world" designs on the printed page. Besides there is little evidence to show that new movies or TV have done much to bring in new comic fans since 1989's Batman. With that being the case imo, the current comic readers are already aware of the possibility of inevitable costume changes for an adaptation in another medium.

    I have a feeling that we aren't going to see many things, if any, revert to their past designs and/or status quos at DC unless there is a change in those in charge(boy do they sound like Marvel). Even Earth 2, which I thought was going to feature "old school" characters & designs(either Golden Age or the recent past), but it sounds like it's just going to be a different Earth but more of the same "New 52". I'm not done with DC yet, but I'm closer now than I ever thought I'd be.

    To end on a positive note, I will say I love how hard they're working at making their universe seem shared. We're only 6 months into the reboot but there have been title crossovers, character gueststars, and the little notes at the bottom of the page telling you about other issues or titles to read(I don't think that has been used by either of the "big 2" for quite awhile).
    Last edited by Mr. Shokoti; February 18, 2012 at 07:24pm.
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  20. #995
    Heroic Warrior wyldman11's Avatar
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    Some other examples. Zatanna's new outfit doesn't look bad, I just prefer her old costume. I don't have a huge problem with Poison Ivy's new outfit. I do think they need to realize the real issue with the sexuality of the characters was often more the close up shots and body posturing going more then the outfits.

    Superman didn't need the change he got. Flash is fine, not really an improvement nor the opposite though. Batman the detail is annoying. Red Robin is good. I understand Martian Manhunter, and I am fine with it.

    I don't think we will see much change back either, the new rule is do something draws attention every 6 months or so. It's great for temporary sales boosts but that's about it. They need to stop asking how can we improve sales, to how can we increase month to month readers but I think I hae said that plenty of times.
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  21. #996
    Master of DVDs BCI Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Shokoti View Post
    IBesides there is little evidence to show that new movies or TV have done much to bring in new comic fans since 1989's Batman. With that being the case imo, the current comic readers are already aware of the possibility of inevitable costume change.
    *cough* Watchmen *cough*

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    Widget Wrestler Mr. Shokoti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCI Guy View Post
    *cough* Watchmen *cough*
    Possibly, but the Watchmen trades have sold better than your average monthly book for decades now. Besides, imo, going to a book store to buy the Watchmen trade(which is where most of its sales were made) is not the same as hooking someone into going to a comic store on a semi-regular basis.
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    Heroic Warrior wyldman11's Avatar
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    I am also sure it being put on several best works of fiction of the century helped. Also many of those who bought it read graphic novels, so they wouldn't read a monthly because it isn't snooty and high brow enough for them.

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  24. #999
    Widget Wrestler Mr. Shokoti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyldman11 View Post
    Some other examples. Zatanna's new outfit doesn't look bad, I just prefer her old costume. I don't have a huge problem with Poison Ivy's new outfit. I do think they need to realize the real issue with the sexuality of the characters was often more the close up shots and body posturing going more then the outfits.
    They took Zatanna's whole magician design and turned her into a goth club girl. If you have to change the costume, don't lose the appeal or motif that made them popular in the first place. I also find it odd that, while some female characters are a lot less sexualized(Poison Ivy, Power Girl), some are more so(Harley Quinn). Although Harley was probably only sexed up since she wore something similar in a popular video game. I bet if Wonder Woman was the star of a successful TV show on HBO & she wore pasties, the comic would reflect that as well.

    Superman didn't need the change he got. Flash is fine, not really an improvement nor the opposite though. Batman the detail is annoying. Red Robin is good. I understand Martian Manhunter, and I am fine with it.
    I agree about everyone you just said except for Martian Manhunter. Aestetically, I'm just not a fan of his tribal skirt(or whatever it's supposed to be), but I actually haven an issue with his new head. In the past at least, his normal form was something that was less upsetting for your average human to see, but didn't require the level of control as his John Jones disguise did. His new head sculpt makes him look more alien & creepier than he used to. Although, that is based on past canon. Who knows what his story is in the New 52.

    I don't think we will see much change back either, the new rule is do something draws attention every 6 months or so. It's great for temporary sales boosts but that's about it. They need to stop asking how can we improve sales, to how can we increase month to month readers but I think I hae said that plenty of times.
    DC is really trying to use some of Marvel's sales tactics along with their "modern" costume designs & darker universe. While it makes sense on paper to do that since Marvel has led in sale more often than not since the 70's, I really don't think there's anything DC can do to beat Marvel on a regular basis. Sure, a lot of people like the Marvel characters and the comics they currently publish more than DC's, but I also hear a lot of people who don't read DC base it on outdated stereotypes. Some people will never buy a DC book since they can't get the image of Super Friends or the Ward Cleaver-like heroes of the Silver Age out of their heads. It's really hard to fight the conditioning that some comic fans have gone through since childhood either due to a parent, older sibling, or never bothering to try another company's books out in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by wyldman11 View Post
    I am also sure it being put on several best works of fiction of the century helped. Also many of those who bought it read graphic novels, so they wouldn't read a monthly because it isn't snooty and high brow enough for them.

    **punches a hipster**
    I hate the term "graphic novel". The same people who only use that phrase watch "films" & not movies and watch PBS & not TV.
    Last edited by Mr. Shokoti; February 18, 2012 at 07:48pm. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  25. #1000
    Heroic Warrior wyldman11's Avatar
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    I meant fine more as just above shoulder shrug. I may have also not completely looked Martian Manhunter's new look. For some reason I only recall he got pants.

    I agree on the female costumes. For Zatanna's if a new character was introduced wearing it I would have no problem with it, so I agree with you. As a costume it works but for Zatanna there really wasn't a need especially since it didn't capture who she was. That is the issue with some of these, they aren't really bad designs... for a new or alternate version of said characters. Then others aren't really good designs.
    Last edited by wyldman11; February 18, 2012 at 08:13pm.
    One Gum Drop to rule them all, One Gum Drop to find them,
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    In the Land of Candy where the Gingerbreads lie.
    -Tag line for the Candy Land Movie Adaptation

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    Rob Liefeld isn't a comic artist, he's a women's clothing designer. Think about it

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