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Thread: I voted for Illumina!

  1. #76
    Council Elder Tallstar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ealo View Post
    scott´s already said multiple times that illumina was not going down well with upper management, so this isn't new. in general though, upper management have had a lot to say about a lot of things; remember a year ago when everyone was saying they wanted scott in charge and upper management was a dirty thing? nothing has changed since then apart from people deciding TG was an easier target.
    Well, I have known this information for quite awhile, but I just don't understand why this group of people are given so much power over something they're not totally familiar with. It seems like the extent of their reasoning skills is: Mattel created character good. Illumina bad. Has anyone ever tried to approach these folks to explain that Gygor was just as risky because barely anyone knew of him until just a few weeks before he went up for sale? If upper management can't grasp this concept, then they all need to be fired, imo.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toyguru View Post
    MOTUC is not just "Scott Neitlich says!"
    That was my favorite game growing up. "Scott Neitlich says touch your toes," and I touched my toes only to learn that I could have waited 'til Cyber Monday and touched my toes for half off.
    Still remembers we paid excessive shipping on Battleground Teela. Is confident Matty will resolve the issue and make it right for us.

  3. #78
    Filmation She-Ra Forever! AlessandraF's Avatar
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    I hate to be the negative one who adds fuel to the fire, but I just need to be honest on what I think about this, even if I'll then be an easy target for many people.

    Scott, this post hardly makes sense to me and add to that that I make no mystery that I'm privy to some behind the scene stories, so I'm having an hard time and biting on some of the stuff being said here

    Quote Originally Posted by Toyguru View Post
    Okay, there seem to be more conspiracy theories around Illumina then Roswell. Let me see if I can clear some of this up.
    I don't believe in any conspiracy theory. You past staments clearly expressed a dislike for the character and hostilty towards the creators. I just think that's it, no secret plans or anything

    At the end of the day she is: "a character who never appeared in a story but only on a print ad". The zealous desire to see her in the line on this site and others I presume is because she has a connection to the He-Man.org founders and I totally respect that. (unless I am reading into things and the desire is instead perhaps due to her look?
    Hum, yes?
    You keep saying how she's awesome, but is pretty generic, you never actually said why you like her. Since you had the time to type this long post, I think you could have said why you like her too. Nothing detailed I just want to know if you like her designs and if you like her backstory.
    Because people like her because she is a cool design and because of her story, not because of Emiliano!!!
    The connection to He-Man.org surely add to that, but the above are the main reasons.

    I can't think of something else since she has since she never had a storyline)
    She has a storyline, why are you saying she never HAD a storyline?
    It isn't official? That doesn't mean she didn't have a storyline, you can't change the past
    Here it her story (quoted from other threads):

    Little is known about the blue-skinned warrior named Illumina. It is known, however, that she is a descendant of the Gar refugees that came to Eternia after the destruction of Infinitia and that she was a member of the Guardians of Grayskull (a secret sect devoted to the preservation of Castle Grayskull’s secrets throughout time).

    At one point in her life, Illumina was known as one of the strongest proponents of anti-Eternian sentiments amongst her fellow Gar. Accordingly, she was a fierce proponent against efforts to integrate the Eternian and Gar peoples. What remains unknown, however, is what (if any) role Illumina had in the ruination of Captain Miro’s planned union with the mother of Keldor and the subsequent Gar massacre instigated by Count Marzo and other segregationists. Whatever the cause, with age Illumina’s views changed and she eventually sought atonement and repentance past for misdeeds.

    At the time when the Mystic Wall was created she was on the Dark Hemisphere of Eternia, which effectively trapped her there. Fortunately, in addition to being a great strategist and possessing formidable fighting skills (especially with melee weapons), she has the power to control light and can even blind her opponents when those other talents are not enough. Prior to being caught on Dark Hemisphere she assisted Dekker in the teaching of Duncan.

    Although a heroic force, it has been said that she was very cold blooded. Also, a common misconception is that she is in some way related to Keldor; however, beyond their shared Gar heritage there is no connection between them. Similarly, many believe that Sleetah, her mount, is a descendant of the Battle Cats of old, while, in fact, her white-furred companion is an entirely different species that is genetically closer to the blood-thirsty Panthor.


    And the description that was removed from the homepage, but that many of us got to read before you asked to remove it:

    Illumina is a blue-skinned female character who was planned for the MVCreations comic series. She was once a member of the Guardians of Grayskull, which is an ancient sect devoted to the preservation of Castle Grayskull’s secrets. When the Mystic Wall was created, Illumina was on the Dark Hemisphere of Eternia and became trapped there. She has the power to control light and can blind her opponents with this unique ability.

    You can ask the site admins to remove her story and then claim she has no story.
    This is the main reason people got upset in first place and you keep not addressing this.
    This was never printed? But that's what the creators had in mind for her, and it's just fair to let people know what's behind a cool design.
    Her story isn't canon? You can make it canon!

    Furthermore, when I note that Illumina is wanted by a small but loud group, that in no way means I don't respect this group and want to find a way to get her in the line. I TOTALLY respect that for whatever reason (be it her look, her cat or her connection to Emiliano etc..,) fans do want her in the line. And that is awesome. So here is where some misunderstanding may have occurred.
    Allow me to have a different view on this.
    My honest opinion is that this is a pure PN spin to make up for the mess generated by your previous posts. Understandable, but that's what it sounds.

    I firmly believe the whole Fan Choice slot was created to put a spin on the mess generated by your posts against He-Man.org and Emiliano right before NYCC. The fuzzy rules, the lack of precise guidelines seems to confirm that. The fact that at one point you posted saying the poll wasn't necessarily about obscure characters but any characters could be in (contraddicting what was said at NYCC), really makes the above hard to believe what you said about making this a way to get Illumina done (yes, I catched that before you edited your post).
    And all the past statments about the Illumina (including the so well researched Emiliano's popularity) add and conflict with this, plus all the refusals to make her happen has a he-Man.org exclusive etc.

    In conclusion I'm once more surprised that you too so much time to explain this and still we haven't got any communication or explanation about the issue with Swift Wind's legs.

    Now, I may be wrong about the entire issue and you may be 100% sincere.
    It all just sounds so weird.
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  4. #79
    Heroic Warrior tumalu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toyguru View Post
    Okay, there seem to be more conspiracy theories around Illumina then Roswell.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallstar View Post
    Well, I have known this information for quite awhile, but I just don't understand why this group of people are given so much power over something they're not totally familiar with.
    Uh, because they're upper management. If you've ever worked for a big corporation, you know that most of the time the upper management of said big corporation is unaware of the details of the day-to-day operations outside of how much money is made. Yet, upper management usually feels the need to interject themselves in the event that something doesn't seem right to them and rather than educate themselves as to why a proposal may be good for the corporation, it's much easier to shoot it down. I see this constantly where I work. Of course, this is assuming that absolutely no one in Mattel's "Upper Management" is familiar at all with the Masters Of The Universe property. For all we know, they are only familiar with the vintage line, or rather the vintage line's success and that's why we have things that while they were never realeased in the original line are seeing the light of day in MOTUC because they were related thorugh concept art (i.e. concepts like Gygor, Vikor, Demo-man that never saw production or evolved into something else).


    Quote Originally Posted by Tallstar View Post
    It seems like the extent of their reasoning skills is: Mattel created character good. Illumina bad.
    This goes back to what I mentioned above regarding a possible vintage centric philosophy in upper management. It's probably not that they think "Illumina bad", rather they think "Illumina not vintage". If Illumina was a vintage concept like Vikor, Gygor, Demo-Man I guarantee their stance would be a completely different one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallstar View Post
    Has anyone ever tried to approach these folks to explain that Gygor was just as risky because barely anyone knew of him until just a few weeks before he went up for sale? If upper management can't grasp this concept, then they all need to be fired, imo.
    Really, firing upper management? Really? Gygor was made because at it's very core, MOTUC is a vintage-centric line and Gygor is a vintage toy that made it all the way to prototype, but was never mass produced. Illumina neither had a vintage toy, vintage toy concept, appearance in any of the Filmation cartoons, 200X toy, 200X toy concept, 200X cartoon appearance, or an actual appearance in the MVC comics and no, the one picture in the back of that comic book doesn't count. Maybe I have a completely different point of view from everyone else, but why is there so much outrage that Mattel is reluctant to use a character that they did not create? I just don't see what makes her so incredible that she absolutely, positively, by any means necessary has to be included in the line. Just my opinion here, but I find her look pretty bland and her back story to be a really bad attempt at shoe-horning her into MOTU continuity as some super important character having ties to just about every aspect of the Mythos that somehow everyone just up and forgot about. Streamline her backstory and make her important moving forward, just not integral to MOTU's history (i.e. get rid of the Guardians of Grayskull nonsense and this crap about training Man-At-Arms to name a few), actually make her appearance relate more to the fact she has light based powers and not look like Frosta 2.0 and I'll get on board.

  6. #81
    Bashasaurus Emiliano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AximusPrime View Post
    This goes back to what I mentioned above regarding a possible vintage centric philosophy in upper management. It's probably not that they think "Illumina bad", rather they think "Illumina not vintage". If Illumina was a vintage concept like Vikor, Gygor, Demo-Man I guarantee their stance would be a completely different one.
    Carnivus and the Faceless one are there to prove that is not always the case

    Gygor was made because at it's very core, MOTUC is a vintage-centric line and Gygor is a vintage toy that made it all the way to prototype, but was never mass produced.
    Do you really want to know why Gygor was produced? Because I'm the only one that can tell the entire story here

    Just my opinion here, but I find her look pretty bland and her back story to be a really bad attempt at shoe-horning her into MOTU continuity as some super important character having ties to just about every aspect of the Mythos that somehow everyone just up and forgot about.
    I respect your opinion, but you are indeed wrong, posibbly because you're reading the info about her out the context (not your fault)
    She wasn't supposed to be a super important character at all. Yes, she was supposed to have ties to other part of the mythos, but that's because this was her function in the economy of the story: a plot device to explain things. I never wanted her to be the main character of our stories.
    You can call the Guardian of Grayskull a nonsense and the training of MAA crap, and that is your opinion, but I had reasons to do that (explaining why no one knows much about Castle Grayskull and MAA does, how those secret had been protected etc.). Ultimately we didn't get to tell the story, so all of this stuff haven't been explained or showed in any form. And we've been prevented to explain more of the story by Mattel.
    Sure, it could have been turned out to be crap, but I can at least telling you you're reading too much in Illumina's role.

    Streamline her backstory and make her important moving forward, just not integral to MOTU's history (i.e. get rid of the Guardians of Grayskull nonsense and this crap about training Man-At-Arms to name a few), actually make her appearance relate more to the fact she has light based powers and not look like Frosta 2.0 and I'll get on board.
    Okay, but that's another character, not Illumina

  7. #82
    Ghost In The Machine Staff Of Ka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emiliano View Post


    You really want to know why Gygor was produced? Because I'm the only one that can tell the entire story here
    Yes please!

    Quote Originally Posted by Toyguru View Post
    Yes, I get a sub specifically so I can see what the experience is and try to constantly improve it. (plus it is the only way I can get final product, the review samples always have something wrong and I want final product on my shelf darn it!)
    Thats so cool......But I hafta ask, have you ever had to Call DR as a 'Customer'?

    (Ive had ZERO issues with DR since my personal TJ fiasco, But Im just curious!)

    ka
    Last edited by Staff Of Ka; December 9, 2011 at 08:49am. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  8. #83
    Heroic Warrior Coptur's Avatar
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    Mattel have said no to her I think we should move on.

    I'm not starting a flame war but facts are facts! No means No!

  9. #84
    Eternian Sorcerer zodak74's Avatar
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    Good post. Now let's all move on

  10. #85
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    My top 3 votes were:

    1. Illumina
    2. General Sunder
    3. Hawke

    To me most of these characters on the entire list I could do without, and even though I chose Illumina (I've said more than a few times she reminds me of an Aurra Sing looking type character) I would prefer other obscure characters on the list in Prahvus, Calix, or Ceratus.

  11. #86
    Bashasaurus Emiliano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coptur View Post
    Mattel have said no to her I think we should move on.

    I'm not starting a flame war but facts are facts! No means No!
    Talking about not paying attention.
    There is a poll goign on, a poll requested by Mattel.
    If she wins the poll and then the poll in July, she'll get made.
    Even Scott Neitlich just said that, how did you miss that?

  12. #87
    Heroic Master of 200X MegaGearMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ealo View Post
    scott´s already said multiple times that illumina was not going down well with upper management, so this isn't new. in general though, upper management have had a lot to say about a lot of things; remember a year ago when everyone was saying they wanted scott in charge and upper management was a dirty thing? nothing has changed since then apart from people deciding TG was an easier target.
    We know, but now I'd like to know more about upper management and how they are likely to judge any new figures to be included into MOTUC.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tallstar View Post
    Well, I have known this information for quite awhile, but I just don't understand why this group of people are given so much power over something they're not totally familiar with. It seems like the extent of their reasoning skills is: Mattel created character good. Illumina bad. Has anyone ever tried to approach these folks to explain that Gygor was just as risky because barely anyone knew of him until just a few weeks before he went up for sale? If upper management can't grasp this concept, then they all need to be fired, imo.
    IF they are familiar with MOTU's characters and world as if they are fans like us. Like I said before, I wasn't aware that management even cared who Queen Marlena was or could tell the difference between Frosta and Illumina.

    The Blonde Teela (Battleground and Alcala Teela) Thread
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  13. #88
    Marketing Manager at Mattel Toyguru's Avatar
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    I've got engineering looking into the Swiftwind issue. I just don't have any info on this yet to share. We are also working with DR to see how many returns/exchanges we have had to understand the breadth of the issue. There isn't more to report yet.

    The storyline posted above was passed on by Mattel and never published. it is not a direction we will be going in. That is why had to ask Val to take it down. In no way was this a move to offend her fans. Really, we didn't want to mislead anyone who would think a potential figure would follow this passed on material. If Illumina was going to be in a poll to be a Mattel toy, it was important legally that the description of her matched Mattel's direction for her, not any passed on material. (it's a legal thing).

    And reading through a few posts on this thread about why people like Illumina and that it comes down to her "mysterious look", really just opens up the options with her. If she is truly an unknown where we are judging her by a drawing only...just think of the possibilities of how she could fit into this world! In a way that kinda does make her cooler.

    Like I said, navigating programs like this - or heck collector lines in whole -through the Mattel system is not easy. You take victories and opportunities where you can and do all to get fan requests made.

    We got a way for you to vote her (or anyone you wanted) into the line. That was what mattered.

    Hope this clarifies!
    Last edited by Toyguru; December 9, 2011 at 09:34am.

  14. #89
    Bashasaurus Emiliano's Avatar
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    If by "passed on" means "rejected", that can't be the case. This specific storyline was never submitted to Mattel, so simply Mattel can't have rejected it
    If passed on means Mattel never considered using the original ideas for the character, that's fine and completely legit.

    I then again must question all the other descriptions for the other characters in the poll
    Since the problem arised only with Illumina, does that mean that Mattel hasn't passed on all the other stories presented for all the other characters in the poll, and if they ever get released their current story will match Mattel's direction?

    Anyway, thank you for claryfing that if released, Illumina won't be Illumina

  15. #90
    Eternian Sorcerer zodak74's Avatar
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    I think folks should brace themselves, and I don't see this as a bad thing, for the eventual Illumina bio that will be something entirely new... akin to how He-Ro sort of had his "roots" reworked so as to fit into the new MOTUC world. I am a HUGE fan of Double Trouble. Do I even know that much about her? No. Never have. She's never been in a single cartoon episode and had I think one appearance in a PoP mini-comic. I fully expect Mattel to do as they please with her in regards to her eventual bio. For all I know, ToyGuru is going to make it so that DT's true allegiance is to the Horde and that she spies on the rebels for Hordak! Anyways, despite what they put in that paragraph on the back of the box, I'm going to do with her as I please on my toy shelf (that sounded rather wrong, didn't it?). I don't think an Illumina bio that puts her in the story in a place other than where her creators intended her should ruin the enjoyment of her 6" action figure.
    Last edited by zodak74; December 9, 2011 at 09:44am.

  16. #91
    Evil Sorcerer! Pravus Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hordaiquiri View Post
    I just like her look; a wintery looking presumably badass female with a large cat partner. Big win in my book. Supporting the .org and her creators is just a bonus.
    I put her in first place entirely because I like the look of the character.
    Matty, Great Black Wizard figure please!

  17. #92
    Council Elder Tallstar's Avatar
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    Toyguru - Any thoughts on toy-based Star Sisters?

    Just thought I'd throw that question out there.

  18. #93
    Master of Power Suction Killian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emiliano View Post

    Do you really want to know why Gygor was produced? Because I'm the only one that can tell the entire story here
    YES!!! Let's have a Why Mattel lumbered us with a yellow Gorilla instead of an established character thread!


    Quote Originally Posted by Toyguru View Post

    The storyline posted above was passed on by Mattel and never published. it is not a direction we will be going in. If she is truly an unknown where we are judging her by a drawing only...just think of the possibilities of how she could fit into this world! In a way that kinda does make her cooler.
    Interested to see what the story for Illumina will be if she gets made!
    He who dies with the most MOTUC wins!

  19. #94
    Bashasaurus Emiliano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killian View Post
    YES!!! Let's have a Why Mattel lumbered us with a yellow Gorilla instead of an established character thread!
    Oh, you can totally blame me for that

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emiliano View Post
    Carnivus and the Faceless one are there to prove that is not always the case
    I would agree except for the fact that I referred to MOTUC as vintage-centric, not vintage exclusive. Carnivus and The Faceless One are characters that appeared at least two to three times on a television show on a national cable channel that aired in a primetime slot. In my opinion, that's an easier sell than a proposed character for a comic book that had a smaller audience.


    Quote Originally Posted by Emiliano View Post
    Do you really want to know why Gygor was produced? Because I'm the only one that can tell the entire story here
    I think everyone would like to know that story. However, I will maintain my stance until then based on the fact that (A) everyone has a right to an opinion and since everyone likes to jump to conclusions based on whatever information is available, no matter how little it is, and (B) everyone loves using Gygor as a crutch about why Illumina should get made when they are completely different concepts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Emiliano View Post
    I respect your opinion, but you are indeed wrong, posibbly because you're reading the info about her out the context (not your fault)
    She wasn't supposed to be a super important character at all. Yes, she was supposed to have ties to other part of the mythos, but that's because this was her function in the economy of the story: a plot device to explain things. I never wanted her to be the main character of our stories.
    You can call the Guardian of Grayskull a nonsense and the training of MAA crap, and that is your opinion, but I had reasons to do that (explaining why no one knows much about Castle Grayskull and MAA does, how those secret had been protected etc.). Ultimately we didn't get to tell the story, so all of this stuff haven't been explained or showed in any form. And we've been prevented to explain more of the story by Mattel.
    Sure, it could have been turned out to be crap, but I can at least telling you you're reading too much in Illumina's role.
    While I'm sure the story that could have been told would have been compelling, the reason I look down at these concepts is because both Filmation and MYP established that the Sorceress guarded Grayskull from within and when there was an evil that she herself could not deal with alone, He-Man would come into play. To have a sect of Grayskull Guardians come out of nowhere and we are to just accept that they have been there all along diminishes from what was already established. Also, Man-At-Arms' knowledge of Grayskull comes from his interactions with the Sorceress due to the fact that he was chosen to raise Teela, the Sorceress' daughter as his own. In MYP, Dekker was established Duncan's teacher as he was the previous Man-At-Arms with Duncan as his successor. While I am not opposed to Duncan having multiple teachers, I just don't see why he needs another, especially if it is one that at one point was a proponent of Anti-Eterninan sentiments and it is unclear if she was involved in ruining Miro's union with Keldor's mother. So she at one point she was Anti-Eternian, but the Royal Guard said, "what the hell, let's bring her aboard!"


    Quote Originally Posted by Emiliano View Post
    Okay, but that's another character, not Illumina
    The Vikor and Demo-Man concepts were different proposed characters than the characters we got in Classics.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toyguru View Post
    I want to do all I can to deliver fan demanded characters in the line. Outside of Carnivus, there really hasn't been anyone i pushed for that didn't also have fan demand (I hope!).
    I hope you will be giving us Glimmer and Frosta in 2012 then since they have had very high demand for years.
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  22. #97
    Eternian Trekkie Sallah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toyguru View Post
    Just think of the possibilities of how she could fit into this world! In a way that kinda does make her cooler.

    Wow dude... really? Did you basically just say that your story is going to be better than theirs?

    Sorry... but for the most part the bios haven't made anything "cooler".

    Sallah

  23. #98
    Ray of Sunshine Lookie's Avatar
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    Scott,

    You keep saying Illumina has no backstory, yet this is the fault of Mattel, not the creators. Then you make a character like GyGor which had NO backstory and even changed it from (what was known) He-Man's gorilla to something completely different (proving Mattel does NOT respect ANY previous history). Then after several times coming on here insulting the character of Illumina, you realize your mistake and claim you liked her all along (BTW, you STILL haven't stated what you SUDDENLY like about her).

    This contest was a way for you to put out some of the flames you created during your last "statement of the week" where you (once again) made some really poor comments (as a rep for Mattel). You constantly do this and then say that we fans "blow things out of control". That's like blaming the world for all your problems. Try not saying some of the things you do and see how you are received.

    You make me want to cancel my subscription every time I see a post by you. Too bad management doesn't come on here to see the types of statements you make and the bad blood you create between Mattel and this "small but loud" fanbase.
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  24. #99
    Eternian Trekkie Sallah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emiliano View Post
    I then again must question all the other descriptions for the other characters in the poll
    Since the problem arised only with Illumina, does that mean that Mattel hasn't passed on all the other stories presented for all the other characters in the poll, and if they ever get released their current story will match Mattel's direction?
    THIS! This is what I keep saying as to why it makes ZERO sense to only remove Illumina's description. You can't have it both ways Scott.

    Sallah

  25. #100
    Bashasaurus Emiliano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AximusPrime View Post
    I think everyone would like to know that story.
    it has been told already, I could only reiterate it

    However, I will maintain my stance until then based on the fact that (A) everyone has a right to an opinion and since everyone likes to jump to conclusions based on whatever information is available, no matter how little it is, and (B) everyone loves using Gygor as a crutch about why Illumina should get made when they are completely different concepts.
    They are completely different concepts.
    But, what we questioned is the "how risky" they would be that was discussed about in the other thread.
    Aside from his tie with the vintage line, was Gygor less risky then Illumina?

    The funniest part is that of course I wanted Gygor in the line in the first place, and he happened because of me (not the entire process of course, but I started it)

    While I'm sure the story that could have been told would have been compelling, the reason I look down at these concepts is because both Filmation and MYP established that the Sorceress guarded Grayskull from within and when there was an evil that she herself could not deal with alone, He-Man would come into play. To have a sect of Grayskull Guardians come out of nowhere and we are to just accept that they have been there all along diminishes from what was already established. Also, Man-At-Arms' knowledge of Grayskull comes from his interactions with the Sorceress due to the fact that he was chosen to raise Teela, the Sorceress' daughter as his own. In MYP, Dekker was established Duncan's teacher as he was the previous Man-At-Arms with Duncan as his successor. While I am not opposed to Duncan having multiple teachers, I just don't see why he needs another, especially if it is one that at one point was a proponent of Anti-Eterninan sentiments and it is unclear if she was involved in ruining Miro's union with Keldor's mother. So she at one point she was Anti-Eternian, but the Royal Guard said, "what the hell, let's bring her aboard!"
    You are right, but again, that isn't the story I had in mind, and you don't have the full picture, but it isn't your fault.
    The Guardians of Grayskull were not supposed to be "defenders" meaning that would have the same role of He-Man.
    Their only purpose was to maintain the secrets all aorund Eternia, and keep the powers (kings etc.) unaware of Grayskull while waiting for He-Man to come. I don't really want to go into details, but the story you pictured isn't what I had in mind (the Royal guards had nothing to do with that for example)

    The Vikor and Demo-Man concepts were different proposed characters than the characters we got in Classics.
    Vikor and Demo Man have never been proposed characters.
    They were concept exploration for the main hero and the main villain in the proposed male action figure line in 1980. Two of a few, not just the only ones either

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