"Originally Posted by Irian:
The problem I have with Mighty Spector's design is that it is missing a coherent theme. Mighty Spector's concept is completely "disjointed".
ANY other MotU figure has a theme that goes through name, design, and abilities. But Spector?
1. I do not see the spade fitting the time travel theme
2. I do not see the time travel theme fitting the name
3. I do not see the name fitting the spade
4. I do not see the costume fitting the time travel theme
A MotU time travel figure would have an hour glass or a clock as a symbol. It would have a name like "Infinitor". Its costume would have time travel references."
Draego-Man and Photog have a coherent design (even if I don't think Photog's powers make much sense, as they are described on his bio... but I can ignore that bio and make up my own mind about what it is Photog actually does). I feel that The Mighty Spector does not have that going for him. I can't look at him and discern what it is his purpose is or what his powers are. Maybe he's a guy who whips things with his wrist laser weapon? That's about all I can get from him on my own. If Scott's "create-a-figure" were something that I thought was really cool, I'd have no complaints about the whole 30th Anniversary sub-line. As it is though, between the reveals of TMS and then SMAA- I am one of those folks who's really shaky about what the other 2012 variants and 30th Anniversary special figures are going to turn out to be.
I have no problem with ToyGuru writing the bios (they're 100% disposable if you don't like them) or chosing what figures come out next. If he were doing things like "I think we're going to paint Orko purple" or call Frosta "Ice-ella" in MOTUC because he thinks it sounds better... or saying what the 2002 brand manager once said- something particularly infuriating to me that was along the lines of "We're not going to include characters like Rio Blast in the line because they're ridiculous"... then I'd light the torches for sure and chime in with all this "Bring Me The Head Of ToyGuru" that seems to permeate a lot of threads... LOL.
Last edited by zodak74; January 1, 2012 at 07:49pm.
So, he's already telling the 4H what not to sculpt, he's telling us how popular each character is, which characters to buy and when, what to call the characters, how to display them MOC, what the important storytelling elements of MotU are, and I could go on.
And that's my question: what's enough? Where does the line get drawn? Does he get to show up acting in the MotU movie, too? Does he get to do voice over work for a new MotU cartoon?
Sure, he's a fan. "A" fan. Not "the" fan. And certainly not the biggest, most passionate, or most knowledgeable, as evinced by Gooble 67.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not angry about any of this, and I don't hate Scott or anything.
I'm just being honest, because I don't think the current environment allows for enough of it.
Then there'd be page after page on these boards detailing why YOU shouldn't do it either, especially if you displayed so little creative talent. MotU isn't about any one person, any one contributor. And where MOTUC is concerned, the scales are tipped too far in Scott's favor IMO.Heck, if I were running the MOTUC brand and had the opportunity to, you bet your butt I'd want to add something to the legacy and drop one of my own characters into the line if I had the chance!
I'm sure he's disappointed people don't love TMS. But no one forced Scott to put him in the line. That was his own choice, and he has to live with the consequences, which in this case involves the criticism leveled at the questionable design skills.
Well then you're getting into the awkward territory where you don't feel free to be critical of the guy in charge. (Love to all the Gooblers, but no way the conversation from this episode happens in Scott's presence.)Obviously someone somewhere thought it was a great idea and something fans were going to be wowed with when he was revealed.
I just don't agree with injecting so much personal taste and ideas into a line with so much history and a longstanding, fairly well-established tone.
To me, Scott has shown himself mediocre at best with regard to creative writing, character design, naming, knowing what fans want, and knowing what components make for a fun toy that feels worth its price.
As Val said, there's a reason TMS was rejected by Mattel and Marvel.
And, I would add, there's a reason that Scott isn't known to us because of any creative work.
As I said in another thread, especially at this level of play you gotta leave things to the professionals.
I understand how great the temptation would be, but you just gotta resist the urge.
Try to see the bigger picture, try to look at MotU 10, 15, 20 years from now.
No matter how much you think you're awesome at something, if it's not what got you where you are, you probably aren't that awesome at it.
A few points:
1) Aesthetics aside, I don't see how the fact that Spector didn't win the original contest makes him "invalid" for inclusion now. I'm sorry, but the original runners up were absolutely silly - the net girl and the guy with the plungers? Were the judges choosing soley on whimsical/silliness factor? Who knows what else was rejected. I have a hard time believing those were the best submissions. Besides, aren't fans clamoring for all the concept figures from Tomart's and the Power and Honor book? By the same logic, all of those designs were rejected too - they weren't the "winners" so to speak - they never got made. So should they be disqualified for inclusion? Again, I'm not arguing for Spector's design, just critiquing the logic being used to disqualify him.
2) I think the idea of new characters fits the theme of the 30th Anniversary perfectly. Thirty years ago, we were constantly getting all new characters. We never knew what was coming next. I see the 30th line as a celebration of that idea. What better time to finally introduce new characters into the line? While I like some of the other ideas presented in the podcast, I don't think the way Mattel went was a bad idea.
3) And finally, I don't get the arbitrary measuring rod used to determine how much Scott is "allowed" to influence MOTU. This kind of nonsense isn't thrown around at Hasbro brand managers. And they certainly aren't running polls to let fans decide to what to release on Transformers or GI Joe anniversaries. No, they they pretty much do what they want. Like it or not, Scott is the man at the helm for this era of MOTU, just as the many others before him. He and the Four Horseman have brought us some of the greatest action figures ever (certainly the best MOTU figures). If Scott wants to release a vanity figure or two, more power to him. Whether Spector is a success or a massive failure - that will be on Scott. But I don't believe for a second that he shouldn't be allowed that opportunity to succeed or fail with his own creation. It's his perogative as brand manager.
We're getting a rejected entry ONLY because Scott Neitlich is the brand manager. No other rejected entry has the same chances of getting made, that is a fact.
Also, there is a big different with the design process. The art showed in Tomart or PAHF Catalog were part of the design process of existing figures or rejected ideas that didn't made it to the final product stage for several reason, including budget, feasibility etc.
But there wasn't a contest at Mattel. Designers were supposed to come up with ideas and it's part of the process to narrow them down.
That is your opinion, I respect that, but it's really a matter of tastes.2) I think the idea of new characters fits the theme of the 30th Anniversary perfectly. Thirty years ago, we were constantly getting all new characters. We never knew what was coming next. I see the 30th line as a celebration of that idea. What better time to finally introduce new characters into the line? While I like some of the other ideas presented in the podcast, I don't think the way Mattel went was a bad idea.
For many fans, the 30th anniversary celebration shouldn't be just about that specific idea, but more about celebrating MOTU origins, what it has been in its glorius days and what we loved more about it. Not presenting new concepts that have little in common to do with the originals.
I totally agree that it is his prerogative.3) And finally, I don't get the arbitrary measuring rod used to determine how much Scott is "allowed" to influence MOTU. This kind of nonsense isn't thrown around at Hasbro brand managers. And they certainly aren't running polls to let fans decide to what to release on Transformers or GI Joe anniversaries. No, they they pretty much do what they want. Like it or not, Scott is the man at the helm for this era of MOTU, just as the many others before him. He and the Four Horseman have brought us some of the greatest action figures ever (certainly the best MOTU figures). If Scott wants to release a vanity figure or two, more power to him. Whether Spector is a success or a massive failure - that will be on Scott. But I don't believe for a second that he shouldn't be allowed that opportunity to succeed or fail with his own creation. It's his perogative as brand manager.
The question is: is the best thing to do?
Yes, Scott works hard, seems to be an incredibly nice guy and all that, but he already has enough perks as it its.
He's in charge of the story (writing the Mini comic, being part of the Bio Writing team)
He chooses the roster and what they will come with. He pushed hard for Carnivus to get made sooner than a bunch of core characters cause he liked Disney's Robin Hood.
He got his Likeness on a figure (and his name on a DCUC figure)
Getting his design in seems a bit too much, ESPECIALLY since every other time he's tried to submit THAT design it has been Rejected (by Mattel AND Marvel).
Now the design, leaves a lot to be desired. The name vs "gimmick" do not match his "codename".
Add to that the Potential Mary Sue vibe that oozes from the Heroic Warrior version of Lt. Toyguru. (With Mattel stating that these 30th characters are going to be key players that link the entire story together and the Brand Manager/Spector's creator stating that he shows up, saves the day and vanishes while everyone wonders "who was that?")
Now with that said, IF I had the chance to design a MOTUC character for Mattel, I'd probably would have made a Rebel,a Galactic Protector, a Mutant, a Horde Member or a Snakeman to boost up the ranks of that faction and he/she would NOT be a Key player in the overall story.
But the biggest mistake, IMO is not Spector, but the way the 30th is being celebrated.
I understand having Terry, the 4 Horsemen, and TG designing a character. Getting Photog and the winner of the current CAC seem like a nice idea... Geoff Johns? He's done nothing related to MOTU in the line's 30 years. Why is he making one figure instead of a person involved with MOTU (either currently, or had worked on MOTU on the past)
I would have made the 30th a journey through unrealized concepts through the eras.
a concept character that did not make it to the line from the vintage, PoP, NA and 200X eras. To those four I would have added Photog AND The winner of the current CAC contest.
FINALLY!! GLIMMER IS IN MY SHELF!! Now I need a Crita!! Crita is to Mara what Evil Lyn is to Teela. If we ARE getting Mara, then we NEED Crita.
So tell me how it's fair that a character that didn't even place as a runner-up gets made?Originally Posted by Toyguru
My intent in quoting this is not to throw Scott under the bus, but to point out that even he is thinking along the same lines when it comes to other losing entries (both vintage and current).
As for the runners-up being silly, that's irrelevant. They lost. They shouldn't be made either.
With the Tomart's/Power&Honor concepts, you're employing faulty reasoning. These concepts are something entirely different. They were character designs by the original creators of the line and they possess historical significance. Yes, they were never made (for a variety of reasons) but they weren't losing entries in a contest. It's a totally different situation.
Can he do that as a brand manager? Sure he can, and he did. Should he do it? Probably not, IMO - at least not in the way it was done. It would have gone over better if TG had simply created an all new character unaffiliated with the create-a-character entry or the Lt. Spector character. In doing things the way he did, he put himself in a position where folks started poking fun at the character and at the creator. If he had whipped up an all new character utilizing the more predominant design aesthetics of the brand (and not empowering the character to such a great extent), I suspect it would have been better received. It would have also been wise if he'd waited a bit longer to do it.
Other than selecting the figure lineups, Scott has a lot of control over the whole 30-year mythology of MOTU/POP/NA. When you effectively insert yourself into that mythology, folks are going to have sharp reactions to that as evidenced by some "memorable" fanfics we've seen.
I do apologize if this sounds harsh because that is not my intention at all. I'm just pointing out why I feel your reasoning is faulty here Mr. Howard.
"Prerogative" implies this uncompromising, know-it-all type.
When to me it should be more of a shepherd role, that of a guardian or protector.
The prerogative, then, is to NOT just do whatever you feel like cause you can, but to enjoy being in service to MotU as its own reward. (Y'know, besides the paycheck. )
I know that'll probably sound loony to some of you guys, but it's what I believe. To make sure everything is of the highest quality, to do everything possible to maintain and enhance MotU's legacy, and to find the best people in the world and create the environment where they can do their best work possible.
Call me crazy if you want, but I think approaching MotU with anything but humility and yes, a certain reverence, is arrogant and lacking the bigger picture view.
"What's in it for me? What do I like the most? What kind of personal stamp can I put on this?", these kind of questions should never even enter into one's mind IMO.
Whenever decisions are made that seem arbitrary, self-aggrandizing, or contradictory, I feel it shows a lack of respect to the fan community and the history of the property. And it tells me more and more that the line isn't being made for the fans, but for one guy in particular, and that's not right IMO.
And just to add to the 30th thoughts, I do agree it should be about celebrating the history of MotU.
And no offense, but Geoff Johns, Scott, and Terry have nothing to do with MotU's history.
Photog? Absolutely has a pretty major historical significance, so he makes perfect sense. But to use his inclusion as an excuse to shoehorn in other random figures without any historical significance is a huge contradiction in my book.
Add it to the list though, from someone usually championing against any new or updated elements for supposed ill-fittingness on the one hand, and forcing the inclusion of a wholly brand new character with questionable compatibility on the other.
Slush-Head is amazing, I'm really pleased with him and looking forward to more NA in MOTUC.
I have to agree I don't think they've gone the best route with the 30th Anniversary line. I personally wouldn't have gone the new characters route, I would have done figures of existing characters we've always wanted but never gotten a figure of before. But the even new characters route they've chosen to do could have been done better. With the exception of the 4HM I wouldn't have used the people they've used to design figures. Like others have said they should have used people from MOTU history like Mark Taylor, Ted Mayer and Roger Sweet etc that would have been a lot better way to celebrate the anniversary. They can say what they want about promoting current Mattel talent and employees but they should consider what is more important to them, promoting current Mattel talent or selling more units? Because if they had given slots to people from MOTU history the line would have sold better IMO.
I agree with what people have already said about Spector, looks more like a superhero then a MOTU character, spade symbol is not only an Earth symbol but as no link to the theme of the character, and his power is way too powerful. A better power for him would have been to have teleportation powers. He could still have the mini Cosmic Key thing and have is bio say the device that gives him his teleportation powers is based on the same technology as the Cosmic Key. While I'm talking about the Cosmic Key
I see no reason why Gwildor cant build more of them unless it was stated in the movie he can't, At the time of the movie he had two keys, the prototype and the final version. But after the events of the movie I see no reason why Gwildor cant build more of them.
I like the point about Spector once being a rejected fan pitched concept, as wasn't that very reason used against something else at one point I hate to dig up old ground with that but I just though it was funny.
MOTUC NA Most Wanted: Darius, Kayo, Vizar, Hoove, Lizorr
Trade my Red Stone He-Ro Staff for a Green one
HE-MAN UK Adventure Magazine #26
First of all, forums weren't around way back when, but in the early .org days as far as I remember it was a subject of debate more than it was an overall hated concept.
So while it rubbed some fans the wrong way, it's a huge leap to suggest it was a universally loathed idea that's now become a universally loved one.
Also, I would add: where's this supposedly prevalent knee-jerk disdain with regard to Draego-Man?
I really can't remember how it was divided. I do remember the sides being fairly split. I'm just not positive in which direction it leaned. That was more than 10 years ago.
Yikes! time flies.
Agree 100% with this. Relatively speaking, Keldor wasn't exactly a new concept anyway. He's a latter-day vintage 80s concept that was finally realized in 200X, so people were debating about it well before the 200x era. In fact, we discussed this very thing in an upcoming episode of the podcast.
Plenty of people hated (and still hate) the idea, but I wouldn't call it something that was hated by the majority of fans. IIRC, it seemed like some really liked the idea and some really didn't like it. Like Val said, it seemed like a pretty even split.
And yep, Draego Man seems pretty popular overall.
I am not against Spector and am actually glad that Scott is getting to produce a figure he designed. He gets enough grief from people who think every move he makes is a deliberate attempt to "kill teh line."
But the discussion in this episode made some excellent points about a rejected contest character now being made a figure, especially since some of Scott's other statements indicate that no other contest losers have a real chance of being made.
On the other hand, I'm not really sure that people would feel any better about Spector if he was a concept Scott came up with yesterday and was not originally submitted to the contest. People mainly hate him because of his aesthetics or that Scott created him or for both reasons. Is there really anyone out there who is anti Spector now but who would be all for him if he had not originally been a losing character submission? You will think he is a good design or not based on the design, not on the circumstances of his inclusion in the line. So if he had been a hit out of the ball park like Draego Man, most everyone would not have cared that he had been rejected originally.
And I'm sure that Scott never expected his character to get the response that it has generated. Clearly he thought it was an awesome concept, and he expected everyone else to think so as well.
For his sake, and the sake of the brand, I also hope that Spector does not play a crucial role in the storyline. I am rather indifferent to the bios myself, but making Spector the key to the universe would be a terrible mistake for Scott to do even if Scott himself is key to the line's success. And whether you like Spector or not, Scott is the key reason why we have MOTU toys at all right now.
Last edited by Skystalker; January 2, 2012 at 03:43pm. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Oh! Before I respond to posts below, I wanted to come to Eamon's defense on his Star Sisters/The Mighty Spector comment.
When he was saying they fall in the same category, I think he meant from the perspective of casual collectors who don't have any insight into the behind-the-scenes stuff or history that any of these figures have.
For us on these boards, they don't fall in the exact same category, but I'd argue that for most people out there, they do. They're each of them fairly boring and unremarkable from a straight, just visual, action figure perspective. They have had little or no media representation. An they are questionable when it comes to overall stylistic compatibility with MotU.
So without the intrinsic allure that comes attached to "unproduced figures" they should just be judged solely on their merits as action figures.
Anyway, that's how it made sense to me, but Eamon can pitch in and correct me if I read him wrong.
For my part I always thought the mysterious concept of Keldor was great, really intriguing and one of the most memorable elements of all the Mini-Comics. As for Keldor's physical depiction in MYP, I found it slightly too close to Skelly's design and would've considered it a little lazy if it hadn't been on a kid's cartoon where the connection needed to be obvious. And I also lamented that Keldor's fate was no longer a secret to Randor. Overall it served a good storytelling function. Whether you cared for the particular story or not, that was at least an honorable motivation.
But it's a completely different scenario with something like TMS, which unlike Keldor doesn't arise from a storytelling need, but instead the opposite: "I want this character in the line, let's think up an excuse to do so."
So I think it's a pretty flimsy premise to say that Mighty Spector just needs to grow on people like Keldor did as a way to excuse TMS's poor reception.
I disagree, it would be a little better. I'd still find it quite opportunistic and inappropriate, but at least a brand new design would be keeping in spirit with the rest of the 30th figures. As it stands now, he's specifically separated Photog and TMS into their own subcategory. This isn't people looking for stuff, he himself has invited these comparisons and criticisms.On the other hand, I'm not really sure that people would feel any better about Spector if he was a concept Scott came up with yesterday and was not originally submitted to the contest.
But the circumstance is the straw that breaks it. And theoretically, no matter how awesome the design ended up being, it would always be tarnished by its history.You will think he is a good design or not based on the design, not on the circumstances of his inclusion in the line.
But if he gets to take the credit, he also has to take the blame.And whether you like Spector or not, Scott is the key reason why we have MOTU toys at all right now.
I disagree. MOTUC is MotU's present, not its history.Geoff has nothing to do with MOTU's history, but this is not true of Scott or Terry. Both Scott and Terry have been working on the line for the past few years, which are part of the 30 years of MOTU. Both men have contributed to figure design, determining additional accessories, bios, and much more. Even if you don't like anything they have done, they are now as much a part of MOTU's history as the 4H, for example. I would say they are as much a part of the history as Taylor and Sweet, but those founding fathers deserve a special place, IMHO.
And there's no comparison with the Horsemen's contributions IMO.
The 4H have been officially involved with MotU continually for over 10 years.
And not to be offensive, but to suggest the current Mattel staff has played as big a role as Taylor or Sweet is outright laughable.
I don't know . . .
It just feels taken, not earned.
And this isn't a bias against Scott, I'd apply it to anyone. If the 200x comic had featured Emilianor and Valor going around teaching He-Man how to be a badass, it would raise the exact same eyebrows for the exact same reasons.
Last edited by Lay Ze-Man; January 2, 2012 at 06:13pm.
He should get the blame. But it is one thing for people to say Spector is a bad design but another to say Scott is putting him in the line as a deliberate "screw you" to the fans. Again, not saying that is your perspective, but that is the flavor I get from some people who are doing the criticizing. (BTW, that is not the sense I get from the Roast Gooble team, whose criticism was fair and respectful, as all of our criticism should be).
The line between present and history is a false one. We have 30 years of MOTU that includes MOTUC, its bios, characters, and so on. Scott and Terry have been integral to that and thus MOTU's history. I have no interest in defending every decision Scott has made, but when people blow him off as not having made a real contribution simply because he has only been involved for a few years, it just feeds the fires of those who think some people have a personal vendetta against Scott simply because he is brand manager and they are not.
Of course Scott has not made the kind of contribution Scott or Taylor has, but at the end of the day, we have MOTUC because he advocates for the line. Yes the 4H sculpted the He-Man prototype, yes they are awesome artists, yes this line would not be what it is without them. But if Scott were not there, who would have been able to convince Matty to try the line again since it tanked at retail the last time? Let's fault him where he is due, but also remember that we can only have these cordial discussions because he got MOTUC off the ground, with the help of others of course.
From all his comments, 'creative' works and the attitude he portrays, that's how I see it.
Last edited by kup; January 2, 2012 at 09:25pm.