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Thread: How Sorceress wings/arms could have been fixed

  1. #26
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    And the irony?

    So many of us will buy add'l Sorceresses to "fix" that she will wind up being a huge Success and ToyGuru will say "Fans liked what we did with the Sorceress' wings- she was the fastest sell out ever!".

    Se la vie.

  2. #27
    sculptor - fantastique JimPansen's Avatar
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    Iīll not. I already know it will anger me each time iīll look at her.
    I really donīt know if itīll make sense to buy the TOD Sorceress then.

  3. #28
    Heroic Warrior Jo-Ro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danielsan52 View Post
    Anything in the world "could have been made better." Why not just take what we've got? I don't think there is one single figure released that someone didn't find fault with.


    Maybe it's because I compare MOTUC to awful Marvel toys, or awful 200X figures. Some are awful by comparison.

    Is Emiliano's design great? Of course it is, but he wasn't the toy designer and is not a Mattel employee.

    Would I have like to see it implemented? Sure, I like all of his designs.

    But, at the end of the day, Would Mattel use a design by a non-emplyee and get sued? I think not.
    We have no choice right now but to "take what we've got", and I have never really complained about a figure before, but this time it's truly a ridiculously bad choice they made.

    This mistake is completely engineering's fault, the toy design itself is wonderful. It's frustrating that we get such great sculpts, but they are mostly ruined by things like this.

    Comparing other toy lines is irrelevant and certainly no excuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by TED675 View Post

    Se la vie.
    C'est la vie (Just for your future reference, not to be douchey)
    Last edited by Jo-Ro; January 11, 2012 at 12:07pm. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  4. #29
    Bashasaurus Emiliano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baena View Post
    Only issue I could see with this Emiliano, is that the drums then move out to the side, so they're sticking out sideways off her shoulders.

    I really like your design, and feel they should've explored the tricep piece like you've got, and as pointed out, like they already did on Shadow Weaver. I just am not clear on how thick or thin those other wing pieces are that would come out of the shoulders?

    That make sense?
    At Power-Con I heard that the drums were so big because they had to be able to sustain the open wings. Which was already missing the point, as the drums weren't supposed to sustain the wings: the arms would have.
    So, aside from other safety rules, the drums could have been much slimmer, and not so noticeble when sticking on the side.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TED675 View Post
    And the irony?

    So many of us will buy add'l Sorceresses to "fix" that she will wind up being a huge Success and ToyGuru will say "Fans liked what we did with the Sorceress' wings- she was the fastest sell out ever!".

    Se la vie.
    I thought about that earlier this morning, instant sell out for a figure people are disappointed in and will fix themselves
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  6. #31
    Casual Fan slackrguy's Avatar
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    Could the arms have supported the wings like that (on bicep) and maintained an out stretched arms pose without dragging the arms down or throwing the figure's balance off? Would the wings have been able to retain a decent shape with plastic light enough to not drag the arms down due to the weight of the wings? I don't know about the different types of plastic like many of my fellow .orgers do, but it is just a thought.
    Last edited by slackrguy; January 11, 2012 at 12:28pm.
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  7. #32
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    This is the final nail for me - I won't be buying this version of the Sorceress, or the TOD varient. Too bad!
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  8. #33
    Bashasaurus Emiliano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by slackrguy View Post
    Could the arms have supported the wings like that (on bicep) and maintained an out stretched arms pose without dragging the arms down or throwing the figure's balance off? Would the wings have been able to retain a decent shape with plastic light enough to not drag the arms down due to the weight of the wings? I don't know about the different types of plastic like many of my fellow .orgers do, but it is just a thought.
    Yes, I don't think any of that would have been a problem. The shoulder joint is usually sturdy enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by oulala View Post
    I think the route Mattel took is not as bad as people say it is. They could have gone for the lazy, Swift wind wings for all we know (two wings, no articulation, except two ball joints) but they at least tried to make something different.
    Let's give credit where credit is due: Mattel didn't go this route, the 4H did. The chose to use this solution for the wings (the "fan" constuction).
    Only Mattel's credits goes to removing the bicep attachement and moving it to the shoulder's pice, while makign the dums gigantic

  9. #34
    Heroic master of Nippes TuShan's Avatar
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    I'm still scaptical, I have to admit. I have yet to see a proper review of the sorceress (or a picture of her rear, to be precise). Are we absolutely certain that the wing drums are attached to the shoulder bit? So far I had always assumed that thew were attached to the torso (that's why the drums are so big). That is my biggest question.

    As for Emilianos design: I can see what you wanted to do, and I like the concept behind it, but your wing attachment also hinders articulation, but in another way. While Mattel's Sorceres might not be able to lift her arms forward without the wing sticking out strangely, your method would render the bicep twist useless, as there would be only one position in which the wings would be positioned right. Twist the arm a little and the wings stick out to the side/back. Do you catch my point?
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  10. #35
    Grew up on a horse Baena's Avatar
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    I see.
    I don't know that I agree with their reasoning on the overly thick rings... I'm sure there are other things I'm not aware of at play like safety restrictions and whatnot.
    I just can't imagine the wings are that heavy.
    No, I don't work for a toy company, but I've been collecting and customizing and repairing figures now for at least 10 years.
    *shrugs*

    I would love to see someone try to customize a sorceress with your schematic... Given a shot I might try actually... Maybe that's what I'll do with my TOD Sorceress I hope to get? Shouldn't be much to thin out those rings some, and try your tricep design.
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  11. #36
    Illumina & Cat please! Darkspecter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuShan View Post
    As for Emilianos design: I can see what you wanted to do, and I like the concept behind it, but your wing attachment also hinders articulation, but in another way. While Mattel's Sorceres might not be able to lift her arms forward without the wing sticking out strangely, your method would render the bicep twist useless, as there would be only one position in which the wings would be positioned right. Twist the arm a little and the wings stick out to the side/back. Do you catch my point?
    I don't think that would happen/be a problem. The shoulder and elbow-to-lower arm are all separated from that part. Since the ENTIRE wings would be attached to that bicep/tricep piece, it moves independently of the other parts.

    If you look at the drawing again, there is articulation below the shoulder and above the elbow.
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  12. #37
    Heroic Warrior Eternian Poet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuShan View Post
    As for Emilianos design: I can see what you wanted to do, and I like the concept behind it, but your wing attachment also hinders articulation, but in another way. While Mattel's Sorceres might not be able to lift her arms forward without the wing sticking out strangely, your method would render the bicep twist useless, as there would be only one position in which the wings would be positioned right. Twist the arm a little and the wings stick out to the side/back. Do you catch my point?
    Sounds right, but it is a lesser point of articulation - don't you think?
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  13. #38
    Bashasaurus Emiliano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuShan View Post
    I'm still scaptical, I have to admit. I have yet to see a proper review of the sorceress (or a picture of her rear, to be precise). Are we absolutely certain that the wing drums are attached to the shoulder bit?
    Hum, yes, check the other threads, there are plenty of pics and some of us saw her in person at Power-Con.

    As for Emilianos design: I can see what you wanted to do, and I like the concept behind it, but your wing attachment also hinders articulation, but in another way. While Mattel's Sorceres might not be able to lift her arms forward without the wing sticking out strangely, your method would render the bicep twist useless, as there would be only one position in which the wings would be positioned right. Twist the arm a little and the wings stick out to the side/back. Do you catch my point?
    Well, my method woulnd't make the bicep twist useless, it actually makes use of that to make the wings stay in the right position all the time.
    Sure, the wings limit the movement somehow anyway, but this is still much better and allow for greater posability with the right look than what we have now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baena View Post
    I see.
    I don't know that I agree with their reasoning on the overly thick rings... I'm sure there are other things I'm not aware of at play like safety restrictions and whatnot.
    There might, but I swear I heard that explanation at Power-Con.
    I just can't imagine the wings are that heavy.
    They aren't, but they believed they had to stay up by themselves, and not sustained by the arms.

    I would love to see someone try to customize a sorceress with your schematic... Given a shot I might try actually... Maybe that's what I'll do with my TOD Sorceress I hope to get? Shouldn't be much to thin out those rings some, and try your tricep design.
    AlessandraF wants to customize one for me. So I'll be buying an extra one just fot that purpose!
    Last edited by Emiliano; January 11, 2012 at 01:09pm. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  14. #39
    Heroic master of Nippes TuShan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emiliano View Post
    Hum, yes, check the other threads, there are plenty of pics and some of us saw her in person at Power-Con.
    I'll have to take a look. That way the execution will really annoy me. I wanted to pose her with one arm streched forward, holding her staff...

    Quote Originally Posted by Emiliano View Post
    Well, my method woulnd't make the bicep twist useless, it actually makes use of that to make the wings stay in the right position all the time.
    Sure, the wings limit the movement somehow anyway, but this is still much better and allow for greater posability with the right look than what we have now.
    Yes, I can see that your concept is very much superior to Mattel's execution of the wings. Thanks for clarifying.
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  15. #40
    Assimilate, or else!! krosfyah's Avatar
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    does this solution require a new tool though? (I'm genuinely curious because that could be a big reason they didn't do it)
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  16. #41
    folks die GoreIlla Dances DO4M's Avatar
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    It Still required a New tool just to get it done the "Mattel way". Emiliano's designs would have reduced the awkward Articulation issue that we're getting... Maybe for Vintage Sorceress 2.0
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  17. #42
    Assimilate, or else!! krosfyah's Avatar
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    ok, well I'm not a toy engineer so I ask questions to clarify where I'm unsure, if there was already a new tool as opposed to a gluing welding or other fastening method used I wasn't in the know.
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  18. #43
    sculptor - fantastique JimPansen's Avatar
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    I bet they are too proud to admit that Emiliano has smarter design solutions.
    Matty will come up with some illogical excuses.
    Safety, costs whatever

  19. #44
    Bashasaurus Emiliano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krosfyah View Post
    does this solution require a new tool though? (I'm genuinely curious because that could be a big reason they didn't do it)
    It would require 3 new pieces for the upper arm segment and the upper wing.
    Right now, they created 2 new pieces for the same areas (the new shoulder and the new upper wing), so mine is 1 extra tiny piece.
    But the number doens't really matter, as they can probably be all the same kind of plastic, so still fit one injection mold, keeping the cost the same.

  20. #45
    Grew up on a horse Baena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emiliano View Post
    AlessandraF wants to customize one for me. So I'll be buying an extra one just fot that purpose!
    Awesome, I may be a chump and wait and see how she pulls it off. Then copy her!
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  21. #46
    Heroic Hyperborean NorthCoast's Avatar
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    I agree that the hinge attached to the upper arm piece (not the shoulder) would have been the best solution. A trivial and simple solution. Hundreds of toys have small hinges, maybe even some MOTUC figures, but I can't think of any at the moment.

    3 pieces for the wings: 1 on each arm and a back "connector" piece was all that was needed.

    The current design probably seemed clever on paper but failed in 3D form. It happens.

    She still looks good. I just won't move her arms the "wrong way" or look at those huge hinges too much!

    Emiliano: Looking at your drawing, if you would combine the 3 wing sections under the arm to 1 and then place a small hinge between the wing and the upper arm section in a horizontal orientation (running lengthwise of the arm), you'd have what I am talking about. You lose the "fanning" effect, but I could live without that personally. Not sure how others feel about that.

    EDIT: Looking at it again, I see you have the upper arm piece separate from the hinge that connects the lower arm/elbow. I suppose this could work the same as having a hinge between the wing and upper arm, but you have the additional cut before the elbow. This is similar to the "spinning meat" arm design from the original Marvel Legends Elektra figure (series 4).
    Last edited by NorthCoast; January 11, 2012 at 02:18pm.

  22. #47
    sculptor - fantastique JimPansen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emiliano View Post
    It would require 3 new pieces for the upper arm segment and the upper wing.
    Right now, they created 2 new pieces for the same areas (the new shoulder and the new upper wing), so mine is 1 extra tiny piece.
    But the number doens't really matter, as they can probably be all the same kind of plastic, so still fit one injection mold, keeping the cost the same.
    But couldnīt it be possible to design the upper wing/bicep in a way that you could use the Adora shoulder and Teela elbow part? So yours wouldve needed only one new tool!
    Ok she wouldīve got some long arm.

  23. #48
    Assimilate, or else!! krosfyah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emiliano View Post
    It would require 3 new pieces for the upper arm segment and the upper wing.
    Right now, they created 2 new pieces for the same areas (the new shoulder and the new upper wing), so mine is 1 extra tiny piece.
    But the number doens't really matter, as they can probably be all the same kind of plastic, so still fit one injection mold, keeping the cost the same.
    cool. I'm not making excuses for them, I just like to learn about toy building!
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  24. #49
    Sorcerer of Zalesia bcrduke's Avatar
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    Emiliano, I'm glad you started this thread and explained your designs. I tried to in the other thread, but I'm not sure a lot of people saw.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimPansen View Post
    Iīll not. I already know it will anger me each time iīll look at her.
    I really donīt know if itīll make sense to buy the TOD Sorceress then.
    Mattel should re-engineer and retool the TOD Sorceress this way. It would cost them but they can share the money saved on Snake MAA
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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcrduke View Post
    Mattel should re-engineer and retool the TOD Sorceress this way. It would cost them but they can share the money saved on Snake MAA
    If only there was time and any chance in hell that Mattel would do that. They could also have her arms be flesh tone too, while they're at it.
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