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Thread: TG Blog #10 Hordak - The last figure ever

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by robaczek View Post
    It's all about execution! Just because Fisto has a head band doesn't make it a 200x head -look at Whiplash, he looks like someone took the head from the 209x figure and stuck it onto Classics body! Many said it doesn't work and I tend to agree and even though on it's own it's cool I still display him with the vintage inspired head. If you like 200x - there's a whole line if them ;-) This line is about reimaginenint the vintage yet again. It's like saying why making a new Bond and not hire Roger Moore.. Call it a reboot of the lne, maybe it will make things easier. We can't alway have what we want.. :-( Just give it a rest and deal with it, life's too short to waste it on holding a grudge!
    True, the Alternate fisto head is not Exactly like the 200X head, but it's close enough and I still consider it a 200x head.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by mekaneckpain View Post
    True, the Alternate fisto head is not Exactly like the 200X head, but it's close enough and I still consider it a 200x head.
    Its a Classic-ized 200x head... which is what all the 200x heads have been so far. The only difference is in TG's imagination.

  3. #28
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    I've already come clean about being un-informed half the time so I'm going to ask this...

    Was there a moment in RECENT times where TG said that they are moving forward with 200X heads? Because I was under the impression that it was decided a while ago by Mattel to no longer include 200X heads.

  4. #29
    Heroic Warrior robaczek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prahvus View Post
    That's what Mattel would like us to believe... However, speaking with a fellow collector, he also identified Fisto's and Stinkor's alternate heads as 200X-inspired. Just sayin'...
    Actually that also happens to be my opinion ;-) As I said it all comes to execution, if it looks too much like the 200x it simply doesn't fit with the current style! See Keldor's swords - we're getting them but in no way one could say they look like the 200x - granted, the principle is the same but the execution is completely different! ;-)

    And as the armour choice goes I totally agree - bad one. TG always said they wanted to allow for as much fun factor as possible giving the ability to swap heads was one - with this execution we cannot swap armours without the figure looking ridiculous.. So what is the point?? If making a choice like that I would prefer to have the armour non removable making it a body piece (like the old BA He-Man had) - at least the abcrunch could be made natural part of the sculpt like they did with Sy-Klone and this way when you try to pose He-Man you end up with the top of the armour sticking out - bad excution. Not to mention limited head movement and arms movement because of the thickness of the plastic under their armpits.. This works great on King Hisss why not use the same solution on Hordak / He-Man? Or a similar solution to Optikk it would still be better and this way we ended up with removable piece that is not removable.. Stupid!

    To be fair though, the longer I think of it the more convinced I am (and TG just confirmed with his comment on the armour) that this aren't bad TG choices, these are bad 4H choices and as much as I love their work I think we should direct our criticism towards them as it has been said over and over that they make the design choices!

    So if we're to have someone to keep accountable it should be 4H! Who's with me?!
    Last edited by robaczek; March 28, 2012 at 06:59pm.
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    The trick is that TG used his imagination to find some arguments stating that the new 200x-inspired heads are not 200x-inspired. But in reality, they ARE 200x-inspired. Oh, personally I don't give a damn about the statements and rhetorics, as long as I can get a second, alternate head for my figure... a head that looks like what we got circa 2002-2004.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mekaneckpain View Post
    I've already come clean about being un-informed half the time so I'm going to ask this...

    Was there a moment in RECENT times where TG said that they are moving forward with 200X heads? Because I was under the impression that it was decided a while ago by Mattel to no longer include 200X heads.
    mmmm... there were some 'clarifications' in one of the interviews... NYTF I believe... or maybe mentioned in a Gooble thread.. (I don't actually LISTEN to the Goobles..)

    I THINK the 'policy' is NOW... that every character can have a 'unique' head. So they'll modernize one up for Moss Man and Stinkor since they were just repaints to begin with...

    Granted that explaination doesn't really fit with Fisto.... but who knows.

    I take it as 'wanting to give the fans what they want... without appearing like they are caving to pressure )

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    mmmm... there were some 'clarifications' in one of the interviews... NYTF I believe... or maybe mentioned in a Gooble thread.. (I don't actually LISTEN to the Goobles..)

    I THINK the 'policy' is NOW... that every character can have a 'unique' head. So they'll modernize one up for Moss Man and Stinkor since they were just repaints to begin with...

    Granted that explaination doesn't really fit with Fisto.... but who knows.

    I take it as 'wanting to give the fans what they want... without appearing like they are caving to pressure )
    So it just goes to show you that what ever is said by the powers that be at Mattel is never carved in marble. Ultimately they'll do what ever they want regardless of what they'll tell us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prahvus View Post
    The trick is that TG used his imagination to find some arguments stating that the new 200x-inspired heads are not 200x-inspired. But in reality, they ARE 200x-inspired. Oh, personally I don't give a damn about the statements and rhetorics, as long as I can get a second, alternate head for my figure... a head that looks like what we got circa 2002-2004.
    I find it insulting that TG says that a head is not 200X inspired, when it actually is.
    Last edited by mekaneckpain; March 28, 2012 at 06:46pm. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by fball13z View Post
    Many of the characters in MOTU (and locations) use Greek and Latin roots. Hector in Greek means “cowardly bully”
    I don't think so. The verb 'to hector' only means 'to bully' in English, not in Greek. The English verb is derived from Hector, the Trojan champion in Homer's Iliad whose body got disgraced by being tied to Achilles chariot and dragged around to spite the Trojans. The name Hector in Greek actually means "to possess, to have" or "to keep, to hold fast".
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  9. #34
    Heroic Master of 200X MegaGearMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robaczek View Post
    It's all about execution! Just because Fisto has a head band doesn't make it a 200x head -look at Whiplash, he looks like someone took the head from the 209x figure and stuck it onto Classics body! Many said it doesn't work and I tend to agree and even though on it's own it's cool I still display him with the vintage inspired head.
    I agree with Whiplash. Although I think that giving him his 200X head was a good call, I think they could have made it work on his smaller vintage body better with a slight redesign instead of a straight port. You can't put a fat Whiplash head on a muscular body.

    However what about Moss Man and Stinkor? They show that 200X heads can work on Classic bodies.

    If you like 200x - there's a whole line if them ;-)
    Yes, and I have them, but they don't have swappable heads, they don't have modern articulation and the line stopped at 25 characters. MOTUC is an improvement as far as features go.

    This line is about reimaginenint the vintage yet again.
    You can reimagine the vintage line without copying the vintage line verbatim. Add the best elements so that we get the ultimate version of that character. Fisto is a great example of this.

    It's like saying why making a new Bond and not hire Roger Moore.. Call it a reboot of the lne, maybe it will make things easier. We can't alway have what we want.. :-( Just give it a rest and deal with it, life's too short to waste it on holding a grudge!
    No one has a grudge against Mattel. Just calling out the inconsistency of making every other alternate stylistic interpretation under the sun except for 200X in specific.

    • Aren't the POP styleguide heads just the original POP toyline heads designed by Filmation and Mattel artists?
    • Aren't Alcala heads just the original MOTU toyline heads as drawn by Alfredo Alcala?
    • Aren't the cardback heads the early artwork of the eventual toys?

    Either there's a plan for 200X heads later down the line or someone in management barely survived those times and has a grudge. I think it's the former. 200X heads might be a way to refresh a host of characters who never originally had variants. I wish they would tell us if this is so, but in doing so, Mattel might sabotage their own sales: would you buy a MOTUC figure if you knew that his 200X headed variant is coming in a few years?

    The Blonde Teela (Battleground and Alcala Teela) Thread
    The Cloak and Dagger Evil-Lyn (The Real 200X Evil-Lyn) Thread
    MegaGearMax's 200X/MYP Screen Grabs

    Sagitar • Cloak and Dagger Evil-Lyn • 200X Prince Adam • 200X Sorceress
    Sssqueeze • Angella • Perfuma • Evilseed (MYP)

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    Yes, and I have them, but they don't have swappable heads, they don't have modern articulation and the line stopped at 25 characters. MOTUC is an improvement as far as features go.


    Wow...

    Never looked that closely at that line... Didn't realize how... Limited it was. 25 figures, Ran for 3 years... Compared to the 60+ figures of MOTUC in their 5th year...

    Wow... this line is doing better than i had realized

  11. #36
    Heroic Warrior Nekk-ra's Avatar
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    This is where the confusion for the fans sets in. Why is it that Fisto can have an alternate head with 200x elements, but heads of figures like Buzz-off and Clawful could not have anything but barely updated vintage? Fellow org members have shown how just repainting Clawful's muppet brows improves the whole look of the figure without actually changing the sculpt itself.

    In my mind, Classics-style is taking the vintage look and giving it the realistically-sculpted features we are used to with modern figures, with a dash of Filmation, 200x, and other looks. And it's also the reason why the above mentioned figures and Leech are at the back of my MOTUC display shelves; Marzo fits better than they do, at least in my eyes.

    It's like they consult the Magic 8 Ball to decide if a figure has anything other than vintage elements to it.

  12. #37
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    I appreciated reading this one. I don't think Scott is being clear enough when he says "200X head". I believe he is referring to hair styling, proportion, and bone structure/angles, not actual costume choices. Like, the heads can't look like they came from Japan.
    --Brent

  13. #38
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    Is Scott ever clear? This is probably the foremost reason why he gets the boots taken to him so often!

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prahvus View Post
    To the 80's fans (who were kids back then), the thing is that the Horde first appeared to the public in the Filmation POP/She-ra cartoon, and the toys came only later. There was also a lot of confusion when some prominent Horde members were never released (Vultak, Shadow Weaver, Octavia, Catra etc.), and disappointment when the POP toys happened to look so different from their cartoon counterparts.

    ?
    This is 100% NOT true, The Evil Horde in the Masters of the Universe line came out before Secret of the sword was released. I remember 100% distinctly because as I watched episode after episode of He-Man (before PoP was on TV) I tried to read into most episode titles that it would be the horde coming in. Even Larry Ditillio who directly worked on She-ra said the original idea was the horde was going to be the focus of season 3 of MOTU. The first four Horde figures (Leech Mantenna Hordak and Grizzlor) were additions to the line before She-ra aired (but definitely not before the show was in production)

    I can't speak at all for the time frame of developing the figures and the she-ra toon, but I can say with 100% fact that the Evil Horde toys were in retail before they were seen on TV or in Theatres. again I can't say outside of anecdotal evidence if they were totally made for PoP or not but I can say the toys came first (to the public) That's one of the reasns the PoP detractors dislike PoP they expected big things for the MOTU toon and didn't get it because all the money went into the PoP toon.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by krosfyah View Post
    This is 100% NOT true, The Evil Horde in the Masters of the Universe line came out before Secret of the sword was released. I remember 100% distinctly because as I watched episode after episode of He-Man (before PoP was on TV) I tried to read into most episode titles that it would be the horde coming in. Even Larry Ditillio who directly worked on She-ra said the original idea was the horde was going to be the focus of season 3 of MOTU. The first four Horde figures (Leech Mantenna Hordak and Grizzlor) were additions to the line before She-ra aired (but definitely not before the show was in production)

    I can't speak at all for the time frame of developing the figures and the she-ra toon, but I can say with 100% fact that the Evil Horde toys were in retail before they were seen on TV or in Theatres. again I can't say outside of anecdotal evidence if they were totally made for PoP or not but I can say the toys came first (to the public) That's one of the reasns the PoP detractors dislike PoP they expected big things for the MOTU toon and didn't get it because all the money went into the PoP toon.

    I knew that line would cause a crud storm of controversy- this is a good example of an instance in which Toyguru takes over and Scott Neitlich sits back and puts his foot in his bloody mouth. It's hard to respect Scott as a leader of this brand when he keeps making absolutely false accusations like this when it's known that the Horde were in fact conceived to be part of PoP first and foremost by Filmation and then a crossover between both brands until MOTU ceased before they could be properly introduced (although SoS somewhat rectified this slight).

    Quote Originally Posted by krosfyah View Post
    This is 100% NOT true, The Evil Horde in the Masters of the Universe line came out before Secret of the sword was released. I remember 100% distinctly because as I watched episode after episode of He-Man (before PoP was on TV) I tried to read into most episode titles that it would be the horde coming in. Even Larry Ditillio who directly worked on She-ra said the original idea was the horde was going to be the focus of season 3 of MOTU. The first four Horde figures (Leech Mantenna Hordak and Grizzlor) were additions to the line before She-ra aired (but definitely not before the show was in production)

    I can't speak at all for the time frame of developing the figures and the she-ra toon, but I can say with 100% fact that the Evil Horde toys were in retail before they were seen on TV or in Theatres. again I can't say outside of anecdotal evidence if they were totally made for PoP or not but I can say the toys came first (to the public) That's one of the reasns the PoP detractors dislike PoP they expected big things for the MOTU toon and didn't get it because all the money went into the PoP toon.
    You have it almost correct- Ditillio said that the Horde were going to be a cross branding between Season 3 of MOTU and PoP which we later saw in SoS- the concept itself of the Horde was seen in Filmation production art far before the figures of the Horde showed up in stores but didn't get revealed until after the figures had already premiered. It's similar to how in 200X MYP was to have included Hordak as a central figure in the next season but given the lack of ratings; and issues with Mattel, died before that could happen.
    Last edited by vertigoink; March 28, 2012 at 08:02pm. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by krosfyah View Post
    This is 100% NOT true, The Evil Horde in the Masters of the Universe line came out before Secret of the sword was released. I remember 100% distinctly because as I watched episode after episode of He-Man (before PoP was on TV) I tried to read into most episode titles that it would be the horde coming in. Even Larry Ditillio who directly worked on She-ra said the original idea was the horde was going to be the focus of season 3 of MOTU. The first four Horde figures (Leech Mantenna Hordak and Grizzlor) were additions to the line before She-ra aired (but definitely not before the show was in production)

    I can't speak at all for the time frame of developing the figures and the she-ra toon, but I can say with 100% fact that the Evil Horde toys were in retail before they were seen on TV or in Theatres. again I can't say outside of anecdotal evidence if they were totally made for PoP or not but I can say the toys came first (to the public) That's one of the reasns the PoP detractors dislike PoP they expected big things for the MOTU toon and didn't get it because all the money went into the PoP toon.
    I think it depends on where you were.

    I know for a fact that I saw Secret of the Sword LONG before I ever saw a Horde member in the aisle... I was SOOOOO excited at seeing Mantenna on the big screen. I had a serious problem with the legs breaking on my toys and here was a character that AN EXTRA SET!!!!

    When I finally saw the Crappy cheap way they did the toy, I was VERY upset!! So in my area I know the movie came out first.

    I think whatever it was 'designed' for was LONG determined before anything ever hit shelves. The Horde toys were always meant to be She-ra villains. They just were. Hordak's mini comic mentions being trapped in Etheria.... She-ra's mini mentioned that she was kidnapped by Hordak... Both in 1985... All documented on this very site...

    Whatever Tiki guy had planned... before he hit the shelves as Hordak, his destiny was already decided.

  17. #42
    Spoony Bard davidlogan's Avatar
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    I am not at all okay with ignoring 200X heads when they are needed.

    And neither is Clawful.
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  18. #43
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    I don`t think 200x heads are always a good thing. Personally, the 200x Whiplash head didn`t work for me and Ithink the Clawful head needed smaller eyes but overall, I personally don`t miss any of this heads.

    I´m fine with the heavy-vintage-influenced line so far and characters like Count Marzo and Keldor look great. I think, they chose right to mix some stuff (Fisto, Kobra Khan, Stinkor) and do some 200x accessories, but at this moment I`m 90% fine, how they handle the design choices for figures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prahvus View Post
    Was this revisionist point of view meant to revive the rage of the POP fans ? I wonder...

    To the 80's fans (who were kids back then), the thing is that the Horde first appeared to the public in the Filmation POP/She-ra cartoon, and the toys came only later. There was also a lot of confusion when some prominent Horde members were never released (Vultak, Shadow Weaver, Octavia, Catra etc.), and disappointment when the POP toys happened to look so different from their cartoon counterparts.
    It depends where you grew up. In Germany the Filmation-PoP cartoon came after the toys and the toys were presented as MOTU-related. Because of this I collect Horde, but not PoP. For me, the Horde always belonged to He-Man.
    Last edited by Berserker79; March 28, 2012 at 08:45pm. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  19. #44
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    I seem to recall having Evil Horde figures and their respective mini-comics before ever hearing about or seeing Secret of The Sword. I also had the early She-Ra figures and based my stories on those mini-comics before seeing the cartoon... which is why it always seemed strange to me when I saw Secret Of The Sword that Hordak and co. were the main villains rather than Catra on the She-Ra cartoon.

  20. #45
    Heroic Warrior Merman's Head's Avatar
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    I'm enjoying these blogs.
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  21. #46
    Let's get Crita in MOTUC! The All American's Avatar
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    I think the tiki mask story is correct. Catra was the original enemy of She-Ra. It doesn't make much sense for Hordak and the Horde to be POP originals, from a boy's toy marketing perspective.

  22. #47
    Heroic Warrior Kowl's Avatar
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    Thanks Scott! I enjoy the blogs

    Who cares if the Hordak chicken came before or after the Hordak egg... Just be happy we got them in the vintage line and in MOTUC
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  23. #48
    Let's get Crita in MOTUC! The All American's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kowl View Post
    Who cares if the Hordak chicken came before or after the Hordak egg... Just be happy we got them in the vintage line and in MOTUC
    Good point. But it's fun to argue and discuss what toy executives may have or may not have done 30 years ago.

  24. #49
    Heroic Warrior urbanmyth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by robaczek View Post
    It's all about execution! Just because Fisto has a head band it doesn't make it a 200x head -look at Whiplash, he looks as if someone took the head from the 200x figure and stuck it onto Classics body! Many said it doesn't work and I tend to agree and even though on it's own the head is cool I still display him with the vintage inspired head. If you like 200x - there's a whole line of them ;-) This line is about reimagining the vintage yet again. It's like saying 'why make a new Bond and not hire Roger Moore?..' Call it a reboot of the line, maybe it will make it easier to deal with. And if not.. Oh well, we can't always have what we want.. :-( Just give it a rest, life's too short to waste it on holding a grudge!
    On the 200X head point, I agree. For all of the figures that added 200X additions as a means of adding interest to the vintage line figure (Moss Man and Stinkor's unique head, Mer-Man's card back head, Fisto's headband and belt, etc, I use the more interesting 200x-ish pieces. But for Whiplash, the head looks totally different, not like a more interesting vintage piece so I just can't get behind it (and his 200X is just terrible IMO)

  25. #50
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    The male Evil Horde figures never had a chance of appearing in the Princess of Power toy line- they were always going to be marketed under the banner of MOTU no matter what- but imo I do believe those characters were originally created for use on the She-Ra, Princess of Power series.

    The only things I have to go by are the dates and Filmation pre-production art.

    I believe the Bruce Timm book Toyguru is referring to has a copyright of 1985. The first wave of POP figures and Evil Horde are copyrighted 1984, as are the mini-comics that are packed-out with them. The characters were trademared in close proximity, with the "Princess of Power" brand name being filed for before "The Evil Horde" and "Hordak."

    "Into Etheria" was Storyboarded in August of 1984 (presumably "Origin of the Sorceress", which shows She-Ra's sword, was earlier.), which means the POP series bible must have come well before that date, 'cause it takes awhile to get a series off the ground and to the point of storyboarding.

    The Horde concept art in The Power And The Honor Foundation book is dated March of 1984.

    So I guess the question is...when were these Filmation pre-production concepts created?







    Some of the Filmation pre-production art for She-Ra is somewhat reminicent of what I would associate with the POP toy line. Hordak is quite different than his figure.

    On an interesting side note, it appears the artist who conceived The Star Sisters originally intended for the evil celestial witch to send them on a collision course with Eternia...so.

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