TG Blog #10 Hordak - The last figure ever

[EatTheseCrackers]

Anyone feel like Mattel may reissue characters with more 200x flair later down the road? Holding out until a sales dip warrants a refresh to the line?

"Maybe in a movie year"?

[He-Boy]

I would hardly call Hordak a cowardly anything.

Regarding the whole retired 200X style, why are they putting such strict restrictions on this line? Rather than flat out re-interpret the vintage line, shouldn't they create a new line based on all the good stuff from ALL of the lines? For me “Classics” should be about creating the ultimate MOTU line. I don’t doubt that this is the officially chosen direction at “Mattel”, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not a stoopid call. And I’m not convinced about who the decision originated from.

[Slave2Evil_Lyn]

Good entry. I'm glad the line continued after Hordak, I would have been really bummed if it had ended without at least a Teela.

Tallstar, very cool concept art, where did you come by it?

[Tallstar]

Tallstar, very cool concept art, where did you come by it?

They've been floating around for awhile on the POP forum after Wacky Martin discovered the pre-production artwork on eBay. There are a few others as well.

[shadowfall1976]

While the news that the 200X style was “retired” did not go over well with all our fans, it seems that most have now gotten aboard this train. We had a few early slips with Marzo’s hair and Whiplash’s second head, but otherwise we have stuck to this direction very well. Sure, it won’t please everyone and as a fan myself I totally get it, but as a marketing manager, I 100% understand management’s desire to retire the old 200X interpretation and start up an all new interpretation/style, if for no other reason than to sell more toys (again, are you really shocked that this is what it is all about?)

A few early slips? Funny, since I still see 200X stuff in the MOTUC line --- ehh ehhm, Fisto?

Sure, and I do realize that ! I'm not OK with it personally either. But I really don't understand why he brings back this issue when we just got an alternate head with Fisto, Kobra Khan and (soon) Stinkor...

The 200X style was retired, the pieces we are getting are not 200X styled, but 200X based, done with Classics styling.....Marzo was clearly an attempt to slip a 200X styled figure in, but he was caught, now it's down to just accessories and extra pieces, not a whole character, and even then they are only based on their appearance in 200X, not created in that style.

Example, the Fisto head is the same as the basic head, just with a crown or whatever you want to call it sculpted in, and his belt is just a belt (now the sword is another story, but it's an accessory and a 200X tie-in)....it's not like we got a new He-Man head with the veins popping out everywhere and Anime looking hair. I can see why Whiplash got an extra head it looks totally different than the vintage based head, but still doesn't look out of place on the vintage based body.

I just don't want the steroid induced bodies and Anime styled hair to come into the Classics line, and that more or less is what they mean, not that they wouldn't be using something 200X if it fit into Classics, and could be restyled in a vintage look.

It's the style that was retired....then re-retired after Marzo....not the pieces they can use so long as they are done in Classics styling, if not then there would be no 200X nods at all in the line. And while I don't like 200X, I do like the variety that the accessories based on 200X add to the likes of Fisto.

[grenadaspice]

This was the blog I was most looking forward to, so I really enjoyed it. Personally, I will always view the Horde as MOTU characters, but I guess it'S a moot point since She-Ra is He-Man's twin sister, so in the end of the day, I see it as She-Ra got the Spin-Off and the Horde got retconned into the series since She-Ra needed someone to fight with, though you think Mattel could have made more than 2 evil POP characters in the toyline. Mt question though is IF the Horde were meat to be She-Ra's enemiues from the get go, why was she non-Existent in the MOTU comics and why didn't the Horde appear in POP comics. That doesn't make sence.

[Hordak]

I loved this blog! I Hordak approve 100%

I am happy to hear about the tiki mask thing. I never knew that.

I will only add this. I also clearly recall having the figures before Secret of the Sword was released in theatres. I even remember getting the MOTU magazine that showcased them and I already had them. I remember being confused by how different Mantenna looked compared to my toy when I saw the film. Sorry that there is so much controversy over this but I clearly recall the Horde fighting my He-Man figures first. If they were intended for POP first they did not make it very clear with the toy releases at the time. In the end all I care about is that they exist and they are part of the MOTUC line.

[Irian]

It's the style that was retired....then re-retired after Marzo....not the pieces they can use so long as they are done in Classics styling

That's simply not true.

NOT A SINGLE PERSON is asking for a return of the 200X style. All what the 200X fans are asking for is 200X inspired items like heads done in the Classics style.

Toyguru keeps denying things nobody asks Mattel to do.

We say: "We'd like heads in classics style with design elements from 200X"
He says: "The 200X style is retired. We will not do figures in 200X style."
We say: "Yeah, that's nice and all. But that's not what we asked for. We just would prefer to see some of the 200X heads done in style of MotU Classics"
He says: "No, no, no, you don't understand: That look is retired. We won't do anything in 200X style."
Other fan says: "I cannot understand why you cannot accept what Toyguru said."
We say: "Let me try to rephrase that: Toyguru said very often that you can do 200X characters in Classics style (like for example 200X Evil-Lyn)..."
He says hesitantly: "Yes..."
We say triumphantly: "Now we just replace the 'characters' with 'heads': We'd like to see 200X heads in Classics style...."
He says: "The 200X style is retired. We will not do figures in 200X style."
We say: "Aaargggggs!""

It's sometimes as if we communicate in completely different languages.

PS: And the argument of the one look for each face/head is completely bogus as well. There is no issue with releasing an Alcala-inspired head for Skeletor in Classics-style - but doing that with a 200X-inspired head for Skeletor in Classics-style would be causing recognition problems? How does this make ANY sense?!?

[Dragonblaster]

The strange part is if Mattel wants to sell more figures, wouldn't including 200X heads be the way to go? There are fans who buy multiple figures to display both heads, a strategy that could have done wonders for Buzz-Off and Clawful.

That is exactly what people are saying all the time. But Mattel just doesn't get it.

[oICEMANo]

I also copied the “title” line from the front of package (which often differed from the line on the cross-sell) so we could use that.

This is not true to the best of my knowledge, name me one figure who had a different tagline on the cross sell to under his name on the front of the card! ...and I'll bet he's thinking of Grizzlor cos he made that tag line "Ferocious Figure with Fur"

In reality the correct tagline for Grizzlor is "Hairy Henchman of the Evil Horde" "Ferocious figure with fur" was a side note and not the official tag line... sorry Scott.




Also, why wouldn't Hordak's mom call him that??? Who are we to say what are "given" names for his species... flawed line of thinking for this subject too...

[bcrduke]

I want to know WHO Scott is talking about when he refers to someone at Mattel telling him that the Horde were produced for MOTU first.

If that were the case, then why were the Filmation concept drawings of Hordak so different from the mini-comic and toy depictions?

His was an irresponsible statement because the way he words it, makes it sound clear-cut... And the development of the Horde and POP was anything but that. .

Everyone knows that everyone at Filmation who worked on POP has stated that the Horde was conceived for the She-Ra storyline.

Other evidence:

- The Sword of Protection appears in the MOTU cartoon episode: "Origin of The Sorceress." The Horde also appear in that episode. Is that some kind of accident?

- Etheria is mentioned in almost all the Horde-related MOTU mini-comics

- HORDAK appears in the first POP mini-comic, "The Story of She-Ra" - those illustrations have a copyright of 1984, the same as the copyright for the MOTU Horde mini-comics. Horde Troopers also appear in the mini-comic, albeit later on.

- the map on the table that came with the Crystal Castle depicts locations common to MOTU mini-comics, the She-Ra cartoon, and the mini-book. The Crystal Castle playset had to have been developed before the aforementioned horde-related mini-comics were released (especially if you consider what Scott always says about the time needed to develop toys). The locations shown: "Fright Zone," "Horror Hall," "Scorpion Hill," "The Crimson Waste," "Valley of the Lost," and "Beast Island.". These were locations used in Horde-related mini-comics, and/or the She-Ra cartoon, and the mini-book. So, sure they were put on the map in the toy and used in the She-Ra cartoon, but the toy was surely developed during the development of the Horde toys... They all came out in late 1984/early 1985

- as mentioned, the Filmation concept drawings of Hordak don't look like his final design, therefore one may make the educated guess that since they were drawn WITH concept drawings of She-Ra (and Catra), that these characters were all planned together.

Scott, are you trying to say that this was NOT all planned to occur simultaneously? That it was NOT done to not only introduce a new villain, but also a new heroine and a new toy line and cartoon?
.
I'm going with Larry Ditillio on this (who incidentally never received a free Faceless One figure (a character he created) - you'd think someone from Mattel might have had the grace to send him one, or bring him one at the last Power Con ). After all HE was working there at the time. He was a major part of the development of the She-Ra cartoon.

Also, We all KNOW about the Bruce Timm mini-book about the Horde. It was not commissioned "well before" Filmation's involvement. Check your dates.

You see, you can't expect us not to know the details. This is the Org. We will always know what you think will surprise us.

[phantom1592]

I want to know WHO Scott is talking about when he refers to someone at Mattel telling him that the Horde were produced for MOTU first.

If that were the case, then why were the Filmation concept drawings of Hordak so different from the mini-comic and toy depictions?


Please. How about you not try telling hardcore fans of this property what's what, and we won't tell you the history of Hal Jordan and friends.

i wonder if the truth is somewhere down the middle... Seriously.. the concepts were VERY different than the finished project... i wonder if maybe they knew they wanted a horde.. and a Hordak... but nobody liked that design...

Then one of the suits said.... Hey, What about this Tiki character we're prepping... why not just use HIM as Hordak?

Similiar to how the Techno sword went from 'replacement sword... to REAL sword in teh 200x series?




And I'll match hal Jordan history with ANYONE... Any TIME Including Scott, or even Geoff!!!

BRING it!

[bcrduke]

It is a middle-ground evolution. That's what I hope I inferred by my post. I also edited myself to be a bit more kind . Unfortunately you quoted me before I edited.

Anyway, there is a lot more specific info on this, and a few of us will post it. I don't have the time right now. It will be posted though!

[krosfyah]

I think it depends on where you were.

I know for a fact that I saw Secret of the Sword LONG before I ever saw a Horde member in the aisle... I was SOOOOO excited at seeing Mantenna on the big screen. I had a serious problem with the legs breaking on my toys and here was a character that AN EXTRA SET!!!!

When I finally saw the Crappy cheap way they did the toy, I was VERY upset!! So in my area I know the movie came out first.

I think whatever it was 'designed' for was LONG determined before anything ever hit shelves. The Horde toys were always meant to be She-ra villains. They just were. Hordak's mini comic mentions being trapped in Etheria.... She-ra's mini mentioned that she was kidnapped by Hordak... Both in 1985... All documented on this very site...

Whatever Tiki guy had planned... before he hit the shelves as Hordak, his destiny was already decided.

Fair enough, but the way I see it, the toys WERE RELEASED in the world months before She-Ra debuted to the public. One of the beefs between Filmation and Mattel was that they did the same with Bravestarr, the toys came out months before the toon or movie. Difference is MOTU already had a foothold in the mkt so any new toys were ravenously accepted, cartoon or not.

[Skystalker]

It doesn't matter as far as chronology as to whether the toys or Secret of the Sword were released first. The question is, when was the concept first developed. You could have the toys released first even though the characters were developed in large measure by Filmation, in conjunction with Mattel, for the POP cartoon. And I think it is pretty well established that that is what happened.

In other words, Mattel and Filmation work together on the concept for the Horde, knowing that they will be used as the villains for the POP cartoon, but then because of logistics, the toys just happened to get released first in some areas, and the cartoon released first in others.

[Snake Hunter]

3 POINTS:

- FULL BODY ARMORS: the way Snake Hiss, Preternia He-Man and Fisto have been designed the armors is the way the line will go vs the horrible bra used in Hordak. So the Hordak armor was not so awesome. I still hope that BuzzSaw Hordak will get a full body armor.

- HORDAK can have a legion of HordeBats that serves his own purposes and Imp is a separated character.

- Hek-tor-Kur doesn´t work at all. HORDAK´s real name is HORDAK.

[Ealo]

Anyway, there is a lot more specific info on this, and a few of us will post it. I don't have the time right now. It will be posted though!

That'll be fun to read. In my mind the horde is PoP and I'll always think so, regardless of what initial plans were or were not because of how I was exposed to it as kid. Also, I wouldn't push Scott under a train for what he wrote; he's got no agenda and doesn't gain anything by making people think one way or another; he's just passing on what he was told. surely more information is better, even if it makes it harder to clearly say what was what. Sure Scott could be wrong, but I doubt it was written with any malicious intent. Less drama, more discussion.

[krosfyah]

You have it almost correct- Ditillio said that the Horde were going to be a cross branding between Season 3 of MOTU and PoP which we later saw in SoS- the concept itself of the Horde was seen in Filmation production art far before the figures of the Horde showed up in stores but didn't get revealed until after the figures had already premiered. .

Hmm, I thought it started conceptually as just MOTU and then mattel wanted to expand it then they switched out to PoP. ah well as I said my only inofrmation on who they were meant for is anecdotal, but the toys were at many retail outlets (and shown on commercials) months before the toon appeared. that doesn't lay claim to them for MOTU it's just stating the fact and why many of us feel or felt cheated at not getting season 3 and a horde invasion as we imagined.

[shadowfall1976]

That's simply not true.

NOT A SINGLE PERSON is asking for a return of the 200X style. All what the 200X fans are asking for is 200X inspired items like heads done in the Classics style.

Toyguru keeps denying things nobody asks Mattel to do.

We say: "We'd like heads in classics style with design elements from 200X"
He says: "The 200X style is retired. We will not do figures in 200X style."
We say: "Yeah, that's nice and all. But that's not what we asked for. We just would prefer to see some of the 200X heads done in style of MotU Classics"
He says: "No, no, no, you don't understand: That look is retired. We won't do anything in 200X style."
Other fan says: "I cannot understand why you cannot accept what Toyguru said."
We say: "Let me try to rephrase that: Toyguru said very often that you can do 200X characters in Classics style (like for example 200X Evil-Lyn)..."
He says hesitantly: "Yes..."
We say triumphantly: "Now we just replace the 'characters' with 'heads': We'd like to see 200X heads in Classics style...."
He says: "The 200X style is retired. We will not do figures in 200X style."
We say: "Aaargggggs!""

It's sometimes as if we communicate in completely different languages.

PS: And the argument of the one look for each face/head is completely bogus as well. There is no issue with releasing an Alcala-inspired head for Skeletor in Classics-style - but doing that with a 200X-inspired head for Skeletor in Classics-style would be causing recognition problems? How does this make ANY sense?!?

What part of what I said is not true, I said the 200X styling was supposedly retired, not that we wouldn't get pieces based on 200X, that is what I said....

I never said anyone is asking for 200X style. What I said was that we are getting Classics (vintage) styled 200X pieces....And also 200X characters can be done in Classics styling, but you get BG Evil Lyn, and Keldor in return....Marzo was a stretch that they tried to slide in, but didn't work.

The one look for each face and head....I don't know about that part, but t was said that if the look (being head or accessories) was different enough to warrant another head (like Whiplash's 2 heads vintage & 200X were totally different looking, Fisto's vintage head didn't have the 200X headband) that we would get 2 heads....Stinkor, Fisto, Whiplash, Man-At-Arms, Mer-Man....all had 2 heads because the other looked different or had something unique that the other one didn't. Regardless if it's Comic, FIlmation, Vintage or 200X, if it's a different look, so long as it can be Classisized we will get it.....although Buzz Off is another story....The other heads are based on something else, but the style is all Classics.

[krosfyah]

It doesn't matter as far as chronology as to whether the toys or Secret of the Sword were released first. The question is, when was the concept first developed. You could have the toys released first even though the characters were developed in large measure by Filmation, in conjunction with Mattel, for the POP cartoon. And I think it is pretty well established that that is what happened.

In other words, Mattel and Filmation work together on the concept for the Horde, knowing that they will be used as the villains for the POP cartoon, but then because of logistics, the toys just happened to get released first in some areas, and the cartoon released first in others.

I'm not saying it matters as a statement of ownership, just stating how it happened tot he public. The toys and toy commercials came out prior to the toons, that's it. maybe not EVERYWHERE but they were out. just saying that it wasn't the toon released, the toys were out in the world before the toon, again not everywhere but they had a major release before the toon in many markets. just a statement of fact, not of ownership to any one brand.

[Thrawn29]

I am not at all okay with ignoring 200X heads when they are needed.

And neither is Clawful.

I agree. I hate Clawful's head. In fact, he's the one of the few figures I don't mess with very much.

His head is so stupid. It kills that figure. Particularly when you stand him next to Tri-Klops, Scareglow, Kobra Khan, Beastman, etc.

He looks like a Sesame Street reject.

[Seril]

I actually like Clawful's head. Sure he's got big eyes but so does Spikor and several other characters.

The blog is another good read. Hordak's one of my favorite characters so I found it pretty interesting. I think if the Horsemen designed his armor now it might look a bit different since they have more experience with armor pieces now. In truth I don't really notice it anymore though. In regards to his 'real name' I don't mind that much either. I look at it as was Hordak always a dark god of sorts or did he become one throughout the course of his life. If he was always one, then yeah, Hordak was probably always his name. If he became one, then stands to reason he might have been called something else at one point in his long life. There might not be anyone around that even knows that was his name at one time.

[Sabretooth]

Very interesting with the behind-the-scenes as always. Thanks and keep it coming!

Thanks Scott! I enjoy the blogs

Who cares if the Hordak chicken came before or after the Hordak egg... Just be happy we got them in the vintage line and in MOTUC

... yes at least we will get both color versions of Hordak. I do enjoy and collect MOTUC repaints and variants!

[Mamblo]

Anyone feel like Mattel may reissue characters with more 200x flair later down the road? Holding out until a sales dip warrants a refresh to the line?

"Maybe in a movie year"?

I agree at 100%, I think this is in their plan since the beginning. They just won't loose this big demand from the fans and they are trying to reduce the 200x elements at the minimum now in order not to compromise future 200x versions sell.

[Tallstar]

Typically, first series Mattel figures have a copyright date one year earlier than when they were released to the public (If later figures share the mold, then the date stays the same.), so I would imagine that nothing from the Princess of Power line or The Evil Horde made their way to store shelves in 1984. I'm not saying it's impossible they came before 1985, but generally that's not how it works as far as I know. Boxofficemojo.com is showing a March 1985 theatrical release date for Secret of the Sword.

My best guess as to how the chain of events unfolded is as follows:

My personal feeling is that a separate female-centric line was being conceived as early as 1983, which I believe coincides with what Roger Sweet said in his book about the Girls' Toys department 'snatching' the project away. I say this because in the U-Matics video some of the POP figures are shown with a Teela shield, Clawdeen is just a flocked red Panthor, the Crystal Castle has different colors/a different design etc.

I'm guessing the Princess of Power style body may have been something that was initially developed for Teela (but then abandoned), because she's advertised in the French mini-comics with a similar buck. By very late 1983, Filmation and Mattel probably started bouncing ideas back and forth for POP character ideas/looks and The Horde; hence the pre-production art work and prototypes in the U-Matics video. Presumably the colors on Castaspella, Catra, Clawdeen etc. changed for the toys because yellow and pink were considered more 'girl friendly'.

Later down-the-road, in early 1984, Dave Capper's (Mattel marketing) idea for Hordak's look was developed by Ted Mayer and ultimately chosen as the 'final' Hordak.