The dorrmann stamp of approval!
This is a protected thread.
Here's the open discussion on the topic - http://www.he-man.org/forums/boards/...cussion-Thread
Dorrman has approved this thread.
The other thread of the same topic was locked due to an improper start by me, so here's the revised edition. There was some confusion to the rules last time, so let me be a little more clear.
Rules and Guidlines:
The only real rule is don't post if you think the swap was a good idea or if you are neutral, but please consider the following guidlines: this thread is to be a collection of (1) reasons that fans don't like the arm swap, (2) the implications that the swap may cause in the future, (3) possible solutions, and a bit of tutorials for swaping arms. The reason for this is so that outraged fans don't have to continue to explain this to people who don't see the problem, they can simply link this thread. Also, if a reason, implication, or solution has already been addressed by me or someone else in this thread, please don't repost the same idea, I want this thread to only be meat and potatoes, and nothing more. I don't want people to have to read tens of pages of the same old back and forth just to figure out why people are upset about this.
The original post:
The following are a few things to consider if you feel nothing about the swap, or if you are in favor of it. (B) being the most important thing for fans of this line to think about. First let's get the logistics of the outrage out of the way.
(1) Mattel has had parts reversals on 5 figures so far. Shoulders on King Grayskull, He-man, King Hssss and Roboto, and front legs on Swift Wind. This has been one of 2 major hot button issues among the fans, the other being Digital River in general. It should have been a no brainer to assemble the parts correctly, as the Four Horsemen sculpted them, since the fans have been so adamant about reversed parts in the past.
(2) The anatomy is plain wrong. The belly of the forearm is the large rounded mass on the inside of the arm, and this is very promonent on people with large builds. Now the large rounded belly is on the outside of the arms, and they look more like tumors. Since the sculpt of both forearms are not mirror images, they are slightly different. Stinkor's right forearm is the one that is the most dramatic, and it's wonky nature stands out most from the front, so that's the one that should have the most scrutiny. If the asthetics of this don't bother you, then there are more reasons to consider before you publicly state that you're ok with this choice. To be clear, we all understand that not everyone thinks this is aweful looking, and simply covering the more dramatic right arm with the shield is a very simple fix, but there is more than a simple asthetic at play here. The subs will drop from this.
Images for the comparison, contributed by JoeyCruel. Thanks Joey!!
(A) Mattel is setting a presedent here, and so should we. Are you ok with any and all figures forearms being swapped? Before you say yes or no, wait until you have Stinkor in hand and then decide, or do a test and swap another finned arm characters forearms and see how you like the asthetics, and imagine if they did that to one of your favorite characters. Would you still be ok with it?
(B) Consider the very high percentage of fans who are outraged, and you should at least say that Mattel needs to actually do something about this, rather than writing it off, because whether you agree with the outrage or not, it will dramatically reduce the sub sells for 2013, meaning there's a good chance of the line dying. I am not a defeatist, I think Mattel can fix this at little to no cost, but if they let this one alone, they will definately suffer a loss of subs next year. Whether that loss is enough to kill the line remains to be seen. Have some foresight people, and stop looking at just the one tree, because there's a forest fire just behind it. Subs for 2013 WILL BE DOWN BECAUSE OF THIS. Just look at the polls to see the percentage of fans that are displeased with this, and with plenty of good reasons. And yes I understand that there are other issues that will contribute to the decline in next years subs.
Here's the link to the poll thread - http://www.he-man.org/forums/boards/...rms-on-Stinkor
(1) Release a parts pack with a Snout Spout head with a plastic trunk and Stinkor arms correctly painted. Then sell it for half the price of cost as a way to show the fans that Mattel is taking responsibility for their mistakes, by splitting the bill if not making it free to any one who bought both, or perhaps they could deal with both individually. I realize that many fans would want corrected shoulders as well, but it would require so many parts being molded and painted, I personally don't see it happening. But the forearms and head are just single parts, with little paint apps. Well I guess the trunk and head are seperate, as well as the ears, but you get the idea, it's not that much work. And for those who aren't familiar with part swapping, it's relatively easy, and Mattel could include easy instructions with the parts.
(2) submitted to the last thread by TUC138: Release a Battle ground Stinkor (soon) with correctly assembled arms, Trap-Jaw knees and lower legs, with Hordak's feet.
How to swap arms:
Use a hair dryer, NOT hot water, to heat up the hand joint for about one minute. The hand will pull right off with little effort.
The elbow is a little more complicated, so customizers feel free to help out here, and I'll edit this post to include what you write. First heat up the elbow for maybe 1.5 or 2 minutes. Then, with the arm positioned so that the holes are not visible if you were to look at the figure from the front, take the forearm and bend it to the side, away from the body. One of the sides of the pin will pop right out, and pulling the rest apart is a breeze. Remember to hold the two pieces of the forearm with the peg holes, in their correct position afterward, if they look like they are flaying away from each other from your prying (though they probably won't). Now you'll have to paint black over the white stripes, and white stripes on the correct outside of the forearm. With certain paints you'll need to do several coats, but I am told that Cartoon Colour paints are best, and they are supposedly what the Horsemen use. I am also told that you shouldn't need a bunch of coats with that brands white paint.
To re-assemble the hand, simply heat up the forearm socket for the hand (not the hand itself) for about a minute, and then pop it back in. Should be a breeze.
Re-assembly of the elbow is a bit trickier, and I've had trouble, so this may be where customizers will need to add info. It's not too hard to get the peg into one of the forearm holes, but getting it into the other will be tricky. Heat up the forearm piece, the bicep piece, and the peg all at the same time. Put the peg into the bicep hole, and begin to work the forearm back together beginning with the inside hole of the forearm (the hole that's closest to the body). At this point you may want to do a re-heat for about 30 seconds to a minute. Now you'll need some kind of a tool to help you push the peg back through the outside hole. A paint brush might work, but use one that you don't care to fray the bristles on, or perhaps a flathead screw driver, to push on the inside hole, pushing toward the outside hole. This may scar the peg, depending on what tool you use, which is why we're pushing on the inside, because possible scarring will be less noticable. Once it's through you're done. : )
Here's He-bro's tutorial on how to swap. http://he-man.us/Innovations/MOTUC-C...ngStinkor.html
Last edited by nicholighkun; May 30, 2012 at 08:47am.
I agree, the 4HM showed their version at NYCC and Power Con and the arms were right assembled.
There was no need for Mattel to change that. The arms look off, now. The figure was perfect as it was.
I'm really dissapointed about Stinkor not being perfect as he could be.
As a longer term solution to head off future issues, Mattel should establish a MOTUC Collector Advisory Panel similar to their Collector Advisory Panel for Barbie. I'm sure there wouldn't be any shortage of fans willing to apply. For anyone not familiar with the Barbie panel, some general information about it can be found here:
Last edited by Hosed Ovor; April 24, 2012 at 01:15am.
I'd be more than happy to add my 2 cents to Mattel on a panel, to make sure they don't jack another figure up like this. The 4H are supposed to get full creative control (design, sculpting & colors), yet Mattel does this on purpose, and messes up their work?
I do think it needs to be headed off before they decide it's OK to mess with more (dis)figures this way. Besides they are not shared parts, the forearms are brand new sculpts, not to mention, the way Stinkor looks, with his armor & colors as well as a new head, parts sharing doesn't matter, he looks fairly unique enough without needing to POP more....adding paint to his accessories would have done that.
At this point the only solution is to do a Stinkor 2.0, I personally wouldn't mind seeing him with the Hordak feet, not that I have an issue with the webbed feet mind you, or a re-run of the figure....only....fixed this time.
The main reason I don't like the swapped forearms is, it's not accurate, then it just looks like crap, when he gets displayed next to Skeletor, Zodac & Mer-Man, he will look like he has an error....and I like the fins facing out on those other figures, it just looks right. Just because they are new forearms is no excuse to mess with them.
Last edited by shadowfall1976; April 24, 2012 at 01:38am.
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I'm totally outraged at this and I agree with everything the threadstarter has said.
Awesome sticker included!
I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe Mattel really wanted to differentiate Stinkor from Mer-Man. However, one would hope that-upon seeing how the figure looked with the swap-they would have seen how silly it looks and have changed it back.
Got Man-E-Faces, Give 'em Whiplash when I Battle-Cats
I agree with pretty much everything you say, as far as i'm concerned the swapped forearms are a minor issue that should never be repeated, but its the wider implications that bother me! This is one in a long line of reversed parts or broken/exploding parts issues, quality control is appalling most figures up to November (ish) last year had weak ankles too! What makes it worse is the statement recently on Matty's news site that said they were improving quality, obviously not since after that we have another issue albeit wrapped up in a statement it was intentional.
I'm not sure on the statement, it could be true it could not. If its true, when altering the forearms they had mixed them up and adjusted the wrong forearms, so the change may be intentional but its execution is flawed. Or perhaps more likely considering Mattels penchant for flip flopping on statements it was accidental and this is just PR spin.
This all needs to change because if it doesn't more and more people will leave the line, subs were down this year and it was due to poor quality control and Digital Rivers incompetance, further instances of both (which we still are having ) will reduce them more next year, and at that point we could end up a situation like Mattel's Ghostbusters line - a cancelled sub and reduced figures)
Nothing exists in a vacuum, so all three points have to be looked at in the context of other events in the line:
Why fans are upset:
1. The fact that this is yet another case of reversed parts, a problem that has occurred multiple times. TG and the folks on the design team are aware of that problem, and yet here is another case, this time supposedly on purpose. One really has to wonder where their minds were if this was, indeed, a case of "I meant to do that!"
2. Point is, a lot of folks don't believe it was intentional, and was yet again just sloppy QC. TG and Mattel have very little credibility with fans, and both have been caught flat out telling us something that is not true. We're talking about the company who cried wolf once too often. It is hard to swallow when we've been told time and again that such aesthetic choices are left to the Horsemen (it doesn't help TG or Mattel that most of those cases involved deflecting the blame for something fans were displeased with to the Fab Four). Now, suddenly, the design team takes it on themselves to make a change that just happens to give the same results as one of the main problems the line has had? Some folks simply aren't buying it (and I'm among them), and that is adding to the outrage.
3. Stinky is a very demanded, highly anticipated figure that now joins the ranks of the MOTUC QC Problem Club. If they reversed the arms on Laserlot, you'd likely hear far less of a clamor than on a popular figure many have looked forward to for a long time. Adding the optional 2002 elements made even more fans happy when he was first revealed. But now what could have been a major win for the line after a string of problems is yet another problem. Rather than reminding us of the positives of the line, it throws the line's worst problems back in our face.
Implications: Simple: another reason for people to skip the sub come August. With the glaring uptick in problems over the past few months, Mattel needed to start showing the best of the line if they hoped to avoid another major drop in subs this year. What Stinkor does is give a very good reason for pause to potential subscribers. If Mattel did it on purpose, it means even a figure that had no major problems can, in a moment, be fouled up by bad decisions from the folks in charge. This and the monster drums on the Sorceress give little reason to have faith in the vaunted design team. If the whole thing is a cover story to hide yet another QC mistake, then you have an even worse problem. The sub is based on no small amount of blind trust, and nothing undermines said trust more than lying to your customers (a trust already very shaky after they bald-faced lied about combined shipping last year; again, nothing occurs in a vacuum, and lies accumulate like enemies).
The Solution: Given Mattel's track record, we've got the likely solution: this is your Stinkor. Nothing has been done in the past when Mattel has grudgingly admitted to an error; in this case, they are claiming it was intentional, so, likely, as far as TG is concerned, the issue is handled. The only solution I can see is not a good one, but workable: the pack suggested by more than one fan with replacement parts for the myriad of mistakes Mattel has made. It's hardly an ideal solution, in that fans would have to pay for things Mattel should have done right to begin with, but given the attitude we've seen from everyone involved on Mattel's end, this is the best we can hope for. Making it fairly cheap (maybe a break even price) rather than gouging for a profit would go some way toward mending a few posts on the massive fence of failure Mattel has built. But, again, I doubt this will happen. I really believe we have Mattel's response already: we meant to do that, so live with it.
"I will use this power for all the good that can be done, to work for peace, to encourage virtue, and above all, to preserve life in all its forms..." Superman
Battleground Stinkor. Make it happen
Dear Scott Neitlich:
Plain and simple, Mattel's response to this, (and more specifically their response to fan outrage, which is with good cause) is sad. Simply heartbreaking. Say goodbye to MOTUC, because of Mattel's response to this, and their lack of response to DR problems despite the best efforts of the shoulder commity and despite the changes that were promised long ago to DR's methods, we can be perfectly sure that this will likely be the last year for this action figure line, thanks to low sub sells due to Mattel's outrageous and insulting handeling of major issues and QC problems. No one wants to blindly hand over upwards of $500 dollars to a company that doesn't care what the fans have to say about their product. At best, 2013 is the last year, unless they actually take responsibility for their mistakes, and actually crack a freaking whip on their factories and on DR. Hey Scott and company, please don't continue to tout your love for this franchise until you show that you care for the fans concerns WHO PAY FOR THIS LINE because we keep this train running also, it's not just you guys. Your ideas and products may be the vessel, but our hard earned money is the fuel that keeps the engine running. Don't say you love this line and continue to ignore a raging forest fire that you know full well will slowly burn up fan interest in the line. A fire which will eventually be the end of MOTUC. can you not smell the sub sales burning up? Their on fire Scott. You put all that love and care into this line to just let it burn like this? Fight for it.
Last edited by nicholighkun; April 24, 2012 at 05:12pm.
Plain and simple: his arms are wrong. Didn't he learn anything after the Roboto and King Hiss events. Scott still thinks it's cute to wrongly assemble parts so they are different? Nobody asked for anything different!!! It's funny because whenever somebody does him ask to make an improvement he says its all up to the 4H and he does not interfere. So the one time he does he ask for a wrong assembly??? That's almost as genius as making a figure of yourself twice in a line.
Last edited by mick4metal; April 24, 2012 at 04:34pm.
Man! How bad is that!?
I think THIS comparison pic originally posted by Slayor really illustrates the difference, like night and day.
Even better than the previous posted pics because it's a side-by-side of the PROTOTYPE vs. PRODUCTION figures.
And therefore the pic should be posted here as well to BEST show fans the difference.
– No comment.
Ugh! Got my Stinkor. The forearms look even worse in person. I am in the process of swapping them now. I will post a photo tutorial on my blog to help others make the swap soon.
Incorrect forearms is not a new issue see Rise of Cobra Duke by Hasbro and my corrected version below. Like Stinkor, the incorrect "L" and "R" was also stamped on the pieces so technically he is assembled correctly if not anatomically assembled correctly.
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He's a human/skunk... maybe those are stink glands or summit!!!
I survived the 2013 sub ordeal!
"We achieved the impossible, and that makes us MIGHTY" (Mal Reynolds, captain of Serenity)
Yeah and Skeletor's glands are on the inner part of his forearm...
I also believe Mattel needs to release a parts pack. I was upset about this decision they made to switch the forarms when I heard about it, but now that I have the figure in hand it's much worse. Stinkor looks like his arms are either broken or were not set right.
The people at Mattel really do not have a clue about anything. Making a decision to alter the work of one of the most beloved group of toy designers in the industry today has got to be one of their dumbest moves. There seems to be a real issue of ego and incompetence going on in El Segundo starting with upper management and going all the way down to the brand manager and designers.
I haven't received mine yet, and at first I thought 'meh I don't notice it much' but seeing these pics, some of them look AWFUL. But regardless of how I feel with figure in hand, I am 100% against Mattel changing the horsemen's designs unnecessarily. if they change it for safty issues or stability fine, I'll take that. hell I'll even forgive the material choice in snouty's trunk and chalk it up to 'they did it for fun's sake but it didn't work out.'
But to believe they put the arms on backwards to make it pop, it is just uncool. the horsemen's sculpts make these fgures pop, NOT incorrectly assembled pieces. DON'T MESS WITH THE DESIGN IF THE DESIGN WORKS!
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i love it when "matty makes design decisions"* like this. i can't wait until they decide that ram-man will pop with reversed hands. or better yet, his head up his...er...bum.
*still not 100% sold this was a design decision
I am convinced the L and R were stamped incorrectly on his forearms. It's really a shame because Stinkor was almost perfect. I would have liked them to include the hoses from his mask to his tanks as well as Hordak feet.
Adding a few paint applications to tanks and weapons wouldn't have hurt either.
MYP Sorceress is a MUST HAVE figure for MOTUC!
I will never believe that switch was made on purpose.
Those arms are made from a new tool! Its obvious there went something wrong in production.
They wanted to make them pop? Thats absurd. Not even Mattel can be that blind.
Great thread!!! I agree with Hosed Ovor! A fan advisory panel would be great!