Head to Head: Return of the Jedi vs Revenge of the Sith

[wyldman11]

Maybe, but this is a highly scientific poll Politics aren't allowed here. There's no need to mention an unrelated, unpopular character (ie. Jar Jar) as this could potentially influence voters.

While I think they could have made him a little more callous, dellusional, and selfish (primary characteristics of people who are evil), the script was what it was. His turn to the dark side was kind of awkward, but doesn't seem to me to have been a result of his acting. The writing could have been better.

That is why I really blame Lucas more, I almost stated as much in my previous post. Less experienced actors tend to rely more on the director. Lucas is great at directing camera work, scenery, transitions etc but not so good when directing actors. From things I have heard he doesn't relate well to people, and this would make it hard to do just that. And it's made worse with less experienced actors because they do tend to rely more on director, an acting coach, or something similar.

I still personally find myself somewhat apathetic during RotS more action based scenes, they are well done and choreographed well (despite the Errol Flynning), I just find myself being apathetic to Anakin so I can't really get excited also what probably didn't help is I know he lives but this is a general problem with writing prequels set so close to your original story. Basically I found the fight flashy but didn't really excite me. I didn't find myself going this is so awesome the whole time, RotJ may have a nostalgia factor going for me.

[Phil.Pastel]

For better or for worse, they tried to paint him as merely being a highly confused and slightly paranoid person who made a decisions that led him down an unexpected path. In doing so, the character kind of didn't often take on the stong personality that is Darth Vader. At the end he finally started to show signs of being a person who is actually evil. He finally started to display more than just mere confusion and discontentment. His actions finally became more treacherous, and his attitude more flippant and disloyal. But it probably would have been better if that started happening sooner.

[wyldman11]

For better or for worse, they tried to paint him as merely being a highly confused and slightly paranoid person who made a decisions that led him down an unexpected path. In doing so, the character kind of didn't often take on the stong personality that is Darth Vader. At the end he finally started to show signs of being a person who is actually evil. He finally started to display more than just mere confusion and discontentment. His actions finally became more treacherous, and his attitude more flippant and disloyal. But it probably would have been better if that started happening sooner.

I typed up similar in the other thread, didn't want to say what I said here though since that is a broader issue going back to the dead weight film of Phantom Menace.

[Phil.Pastel]

It goes back to what I said earlier about it being a tough role. You have to be Darth Vader without the mask. That's a tough assignment. You're called upon to be a good guy and a bad guy in the same movie. You also have to be fairly athletic since you are in a lot of fight scenes.

[Benedict Judas Hel]

Those of us who like Anakin maybe prefer seeing him without the outfit? Just a thought. I think it was cool the way he grew into the part.

And there are those of us who prefer Vader in the suit. The guy that nobody wanted the fail in front of. The guy nobody wanted to fight. I don't want the guy who says "Obi-Wan is holding me back!"

ROTJ had high points. It also had absudities that insult the intelligence of the viewer. Do you really want ewok arrows and spears to penetrate stormtrooper armor? Or see a whole garrison surrender instead of turning around and running back into the bunker? That kind of stuff ruins the viewing experience regardless of how great other elements of the movie were.

Disruption of logic? Sure the movie had them. I don't like them myself being an Imperial myself. I don't like the fact that a bunch of teddy bears beat an entire legion of Stormtroopers any better than you do. But there are more incredulous moments. Like how did the Ewoks have all those logs in place to specifically battle the AT-STs (especially the one to sandwich an AT-ST at cockpit level). That would require months of advance notice and the Ewoks had maybe 10 minutes in movie time. It all goes to service the "good must triumph and evil must be punished" mantra that is prevalent in 95% of movies. But then you have to look at other fallacies that "insult" the viewer. Lightsaber that have coherent light stop at certain lengths instead of going on forever as they should. Bank turns for fighters in space? Or sounds and explosions in space for that matter. You scratch the surface and question one illogical thing and then you question them all.

I don't recall anything that embarrassing in ROTS.

Well, I can. From ANH, we see Obi-Wan look at R2-D2 and C-3PO and not recognize them. He even says that he's never even owned a droid. How can anybody go through the entire Clone Wars saga with these 2 droids (R2 saving Kenobi a few times and 3PO being annoying as he is) and not recognize them? It's only been about 17-18 years since Luke was born. Also, in ROTJ, Luke asks Leia about her mother and Leia replies that "she was very beautiful but sad. Always sad.". But in ROTS, Padme dies giving birth. How can Leia remember her mother if she was a newborn? She could be talking about Bail Organa's wife (her foster mother) but why would she be sad? Bail Organa said in ROTS that his wife always wanted a girl. That would make me think she'd be happy having Leia. Those are the 2 most blatant examples I can think of off the top of my head.

[Phil.Pastel]

And there are those of us who prefer Vader in the suit. The guy that nobody wanted the fail in front of. The guy nobody wanted to fight. I don't want the guy who says "Obi-Wan is holding me back!"

LOOOOL I couldn't wait till you got back into this thread

Disruption of logic? Sure the movie had them. I don't like them myself being an Imperial myself. I don't like the fact that a bunch of teddy bears beat an entire legion of Stormtroopers any better than you do. But there are more incredulous moments. Like how did the Ewoks have all those logs in place to specifically battle the AT-STs (especially the one to sandwich an AT-ST at cockpit level). That would require months of advance notice and the Ewoks had maybe 10 minutes in movie time. It all goes to service the "good must triumph and evil must be punished" mantra that is prevalent in 95% of movies. But then you have to look at other fallacies that "insult" the viewer. Lightsaber that have coherent light stop at certain lengths instead of going on forever as they should. Bank turns for fighters in space? Or sounds and explosions in space for that matter. You scratch the service and question one illogical thing and then you question it all.

Honestly, I don't mind the stormtroopers losing to ewoks. But it has to be done right. We are left wondering why stormtroopers wear armor since it provides no defense against primitive weapons (ie. a wooden spear). We already knew that it didn't protect against laser fire, but you would have thought that it served more than just a decorative purpose. How about a 3 stooges eye-poke? Would it protect against that???

This is a critical point. It is only in ROTJ where I end up asking a lot of questions. I just watch the other 5 movies "normally". Why does Vader congradulate the guy who brings in Luke? He didn't capture him, he surrendered. "Good work, commander. Bring his companions to me." Good work? What did he do? Wasn't Vader pretty rough on his constituents in the first movie? Or C-3PO being a master storyteller in the third movie after he stated in the original movie that he wasn't good at telling stories. These are questions I end up asking in ROTJ that I don't ask in the other movies.

Well, I can. From ANH, we see Obi-Wan look at R2-D2 and C-3PO and not recognize them. He even says that he's never even owned a droid. How can anybody go through the entire Clone Wars saga with these 2 droids (R2 saving Kenobi a few times and 3PO being annoying as he is) and not recognize them? It's only been about 17-18 years since Luke was born. Also, in ROTJ, Luke asks Leia about her mother and Leia replies that "she was very beautiful but sad. Always sad.". But in ROTS, Padme dies giving birth. How can Leia remember her mother is she was a newborn? She could be talking about Bail Organa's wife (her foster mother) but why would she be sad? Bail Organa said in ROTS that his wife always wanted a girl. The would make me think she'd be happy having Leia. Those are the 2 most blatant examples I can think of off the top of my head.

In all fairness, the droids were added for "fun" and they were fun. I would rather have had them than not have them (or have JJB back again).
I have no response for Leia's mother

[wyldman11]

Armor is good at mainly slowing impact down and reducing slicing/cutting damage. This why in history, maces, axes and estoc's become more into use as armor became more plated, all three were good at blunt damage the estoc also had a point to stick into ringed armor sections. when everyone started using these types of weapons specifically designed to counter the armor they wore they started wearing different armor and using different blades.

Even armor designed to stop bullets you can still take some pretty nasty wounds because the armor can only slow the bullet down to the point of non lethality, also there are weak points in armor that can be used to effectiveness.

Their armor could have been there to minimize a full blast taking it down to stun, or other explanations. It most likely kept them from dying, but doesn't mean a blaster shot didn't hurt. Much like bullet proof armor, you can still end up with bruises, getting knocked off your feet, or a possible cracked rib all of which are better then taking a bullet to the chest.

But from a movie making point, you make 5-10 armors so that you can reuse actors notice how on screen you never see more then about that many (until recent additions added in digital storm troopers), even during the Imperial march they were card board cutouts mixed with a few real people shot over and over again. They are also canon fodder which is another reason for the helmets, no need to mention why the same three guys keep showing up with out their helmets. How many of them were still clones at this point is debatable.

[Phil.Pastel]

Not that it actually matters, but the spears were being thrown by guys 3 ft tall with short and stubby little arms

[wyldman11]

Not that it actually matters, but the spears were being thrown by guys 3 ft tall with short and stubby little arms

And I was about to add back in, it does depends on how the armor was designed to handle the blaster fire. And how armor is basically designed to handle the most commonly used weapons, which I just didn't directly mention.

I would say what you said though is potentially the strongest complaint it's not like it was Chewbacca throwing the weapons. Of course strength can be relative in a fictional world.

[Phil.Pastel]

If you look closely, in the first movie, you can see holes in the armor of stormtroopers who were blasted. Their survival would have been more or less luck and not something that could be attributed to their armor. I think we can safely say that the armor was of little or no value against blasters.

[Benedict Judas Hel]

Honestly, I don't mind the stormtroopers losing to ewoks. But it has to be done right. We are left wondering why stormtroopers wear armor since it provides no defense against primitive weapons (ie. a wooden spear). We already knew that it didn't protect against laser fire, but you would have thought that it served more than just a decorative purpose. How about a 3 stooges eye-poke? Would it protect against that???

I got an answer for that. Stormtroopers are clones, bred to be blindly obedient. The Emperor tells you the armor protects you. Surprise! It doesn't. But by the time you find that out, you're dead. And then the Empire makes another one of you to replace the fallen ones. The ones that live won't say anything because who would question the Emperor? He is infallible! Their programming tells them so! The fault must lie in the Stormtrooper himself for the armor to fail to protect him.

This is a critical point. It is only in ROTJ where I end up asking a lot of questions. I just watch the other 5 movies "normally". Why does Vader congradulate the guy who brings in Luke? He didn't capture him, he surrendered. "Good work, commander. Bring his companions to me." Good work? What did he do? Wasn't Vader pretty rough on his constituents in the first movie?

Yes, he was. On those who failed him. That commander didn't fail him. He brought Luke to Vader. True, Luke may have surrendered but that commander still delivered Luke to Vader nonetheless. So, not a failure and worthy of that commander not getting force-choked to death.

Or C-3PO being a master storyteller in the third movie after he stated in the original movie that he wasn't good at telling stories. These are questions I end up asking in ROTJ that I don't ask in the other movies.

Not that I'm defending 3PO, but how good do you have to be at storytelling to amuse a bunch of primitives who think that because of your gold plating you're a god? Plus I think deity-worship is also comes into play in that scene.

In all fairness, the droids were added for "fun" and they were fun. I would rather have had them than not have them (or have JJB back again).

Perhaps they were fun but it's still another inconsistency of the Prequels. Incosistencies which you decry. Just because you approve of them does not make them any less of an inconsistency. But I do agree. They were just put in there to make the bitter pill of the Prequels easier to swallow for older fans of the original Trilogy.

Another character inconsistency I thought of in ROTS was when Obi-Wan sliced off Anakin's arm and legs, he didn't finish him. This guy betrayed you and killed all your friends and colleagues. He killed women and children. He choked his own wife in front of you while you did nothing. Any normal person would have killed him and been done with it. What does Obi-Wan do? He leaves him on the side of a lava bank still alive. Even though he catches fire and screams in agony...he's still alive. Any normal thinking person would finish this guy off lest he should come back and kill again. That's what I would think.

[wyldman11]

If you look closely, in the first movie, you can see holes in the armor of stormtroopers who were blasted. Their survival would have been more or less luck and not something that could be attributed to their armor. I think we can safely say that the armor was of little or no value against blasters.

Item..................Cost

Plot Armor...........Whim of story writer

[Phil.Pastel]

I got an answer for that. Stormtroopers are clones, bred to be blindly obedient. The Emperor tells you the armor protects you. Surprise! It doesn't. But by the time you find that out, you're dead. And then the Empire makes another one of you to replace the fallen ones. The ones that live won't say anything because who would question the Emperor? He is infallible! Their programming tells them so! The fault must lie in the Stormtrooper himself for the armor to fail to protect him.

If you are going to go through the trouble of manufacturing "armor", you would make it real armor that might actually protect the soldier. Sure, these are expendable clones, but they are still your personal assets.

Yes, he was. On those who failed him. That commander didn't fail him. He brought Luke to Vader. True, Luke may have surrendered but that commander still delivered Luke to Vader nonetheless. So, not a failure and worthy of that commander not getting force-choked to death.

I'm not saying he should have choked him to death. But there wasn't anything the guy did to deserve being complimented either. The Vader from ESB would have simply instructed the guy to find them. He didn't congratulate the admiral when they found the millenium falcon. "Good Work, admiral!" He didn't even compliment the guy who found the rebel base on Hoth (although he did eventually put him in charge).

Not that I'm defending 3PO, but how good do you have to be at storytelling to amuse a bunch of primitives who think that because of your gold plating you're a god? Plus I think deity-worship is also comes into play in that scene.

Han and Leia were just as mesmorized by his story as the ewoks were, maybe more.

Perhaps they were fun but it's still another inconsistency of the Prequels. Incosistencies which you decry. Just because you approve of them does not make them any less of an inconsistency. But I do agree. They were just put in there to make the bitter pill of the Prequels easier to swallow for older fans of the original Trilogy.

I'm not disagreeing that It's an inconsistency, but it's not an error. It was done on purpose. And fans know what the purpose was. It improved the movies.

Another character inconsistency I thought of in ROTS was when Obi-Wan sliced off Anakin's arm and legs, he didn't finish him. This guy betrayed you and killed all your friends and colleagues. He killed women and children. He choked his own wife in front of you while you did nothing. Any normal person would have killed him and been done with it. What does Obi-Wan do? He leaves him on the side of a lava bank still alive. Even though he catches fire and screams in agony...he's still alive. Any normal thinking person would finish this guy off lest he should come back and kill again. That's what I would think.

That's actually easily explainable. For starters, you wouldn't expect him to survive in that situation. He's missing arms and legs and he's on fire LOL. Also, he just couldn't bring himself to finish him off. If anything, he showed a lack of humanity by not putting him out of his misery.

[Benedict Judas Hel]

If you are going to go through the trouble of manufacturing "armor", you would make it real armor that might actually protect the soldier. Sure, these are expendable clones, but they are still your personal assets.

You think the Emperor cares? This is the guy who callously throws aside his most trusted servant in favor of that servant's son. I don't think he cares about millions of grunts or the money needed to pay for useless armor.

I'm not saying he should have choked him to death. But there wasn't anything the guy did to deserve being complimented either. The Vader from ESB would have simply instructed the guy to find them. He didn't congratulate the admiral when they found the millenium falcon. "Good Work, admiral!" He didn't even compliment the guy who found the rebel base on Hoth (although he did eventually put him in charge).

Both examples...found but not delivered. The Millenium Falcon was not in Vader's possession nor was the Hoth base. Merely located.

Han and Leia were just as mesmorized by his story as the ewoks were, maybe more.

Yeah, but they had the googly eyes for each other. So they were easy to get mesmerized, too. Luke, the sad loner, was not so interested in the story.

And fans know what the purpose was. It improved the movies.

Well, that's debatable...

That's actually easily explainable. For starters, you wouldn't expect him to survive in that situation. He's missing arms and legs and he's on fire LOL. Also, he just couldn't bring himself to finish him off. If anything, he showed a lack of humanity by not putting him out of his misery.

So, your jedi master, the best in the entire galaxy, tells you to finish off a guy, a despicable guy, and you disobey him thereby putting the galaxy in jeopardy? Doesn't seem very consistent with the great Jedi Knight he's supposed to be. Easily beaten by Count Dooku, who Anakin gives a hard time to in AOTC, evidenced by the large exhale and tired look Dooku gives after slicing off Anakin's hand. I don't know. Seems like Obi Wan is pretty sloppy to me.

[wyldman11]

C-3PIO is a much akin to a humble butler who doesn't really go around boasting out of pride about what he is capable of. The only basis we have for his being a bad story teller is what he says, the only basis we have for how good of a story teller he is based on the reaction of those listening to him.

It could be very Socratic in statement. Much like many duelist type characters in various story based medium, "Oh, I am not that good..." half way through the second act from another character ..." I thought you said you weren't that good." "I'm not you should see my brother/I just got lucky/Oh that that was nothing/etc"

[dedset13]

That's actually easily explainable. For starters, you wouldn't expect him to survive in that situation. He's missing arms and legs and he's on fire LOL.

Assumption is not in a Jedi Knight's vocabulary.

Also, he just couldn't bring himself to finish him off.

Do, or do not. There is no try. A true Jedi gets the job done.

If anything, he showed a lack of humanity by not putting him out of his misery.

Yet another trait not befitting of a Jedi Knight.

[Phil.Pastel]

You think the Emperor cares? This is the guy who callously throws aside his most trusted servant in favor of that servant's son. I don't think he cares about millions of grunts or the money needed to pay for useless armor.

Useless? They lost on Endor precisely because the armor did not work

Both examples...found but not delivered. The Millenium Falcon was not in Vader's possession nor was the Hoth base. Merely located.

We will have to disagree on this. I just thought it was nonessential and out of character.

Yeah, but they had the googly eyes for each other. So they were easy to get mesmerized, too. Luke, the sad loner, was not so interested in the story.

He was preoccupied as always. Never his mind was on where he was, what he was doing

Well, that's debatable...

To be honest, I don't remember 3PO doing much in the last movie. R2 had a role early on. But yeah, I think they could have been removed from the 3rd movie with no harm done. They were more entertaining in the first 2 movies.

So, your jedi master, the best in the entire galaxy, tells you to finish off a guy, a despicable guy, and you disobey him thereby putting the galaxy in jeopardy? Doesn't seem very consistent with the great Jedi Knight he's supposed to be. Easily beaten by Count Dooku, who Anakin gives a hard time to in AOTC, evidenced by the large exhale and tired look Dooku gives after slicing off Anakin's hand. I don't know. Seems like Obi Wan is pretty sloppy to me.

Not only that, but he was kind of short.

I always thought kwai gon would have made the better Kenobi. He was terrific, albeit not much of an acrobat.

[wyldman11]

Assumption is not in a Jedi Knight's vocabulary.



Do, or do not. There is no try. A true Jedi gets the job done.



Yet another trait not befitting of a Jedi Knight.

Yoda was basically telling Luke in a PG way to stop being a whiny little fill in the blank.

Obi Wan left Anakin there to die, he was just being stupid about one simple fact the whole movie the ability to travel is minimized simply to a fade away. Every where else in the Star Wars universe they go on about how long it takes to get places, until RotS (and to some extent Attack of the Clones) where travel is instant when needed. The emperor basically said, Anakin is on the outer reaches of the Galactic Space and is pretty much going to die so.... Scotty three to beam to his location.

[Phil.Pastel]

Yoda was basically telling Luke in a PG way to stop being a whiny little fill in the blank.

Obi Wan left Anakin there to die, he was just being stupid about one simple fact the whole movie the ability to travel is minimized simply to a fade away. Every where else in the Star Wars universe they go on about how long it takes to get places, until RotS (and to some extent Attack of the Clones) where travel is instant when needed. The emperor basically said, Anakin is on the outer reaches of the Galactic Space and is pretty much going to die so.... Scotty three to beam to his location.

That's a good point. It did not go un-noticed on this end. I pick up on stuff like that.

They did get there in a hurry, but I don't think we officially know how much time elapsed. He may have been lying there for a day or even two before they arrived.

[dedset13]

Yoda was basically telling Luke in a PG way to stop being a whiny little fill in the blank.

Regardless, a Jedi Knight doesn't leave things to chance. They are taught and trained to be thorough and do what must be done.

[wyldman11]

Regardless, a Jedi Knight doesn't leave things to chance. They are taught and trained to be thorough and do what must be done.

I double checked before I made this statement. Jedi are taught to follow the will of the Force, where as Sith are taught to manipulate the Force.

As far as I recall Obi Wan is still working under the idea that Anakin is the chosen who will bring balance to the Force, or whatever version of it they have been taught. As I recall he waivers on this going back and forth, but chances are the reason he leaves Anakin there is he isn't leaving it to chance but to the will of the Force. If he is the chosen one and is meant to bring balance, the Force will accomplish this through him, if he is not the chosen one he will die on the planet.

Throughout the years, Obi Wan in seclusion most likely comes to that conclusion even further Anakin is the chosen one because I left him there to die and he survived and became Darth Vader. The problem for viewers is this, the movies don't do a very good job of teaching us that the view that the dark side is evil and light side good is just what many Jedi have come to believe. In the movies we are only presented with dark side users in the Sith who tend to focus on manipulation and power. Other media even (canon) shows there are more users of the dark side who at best are questionable in their morality or ethics. The issue that starts with the dark side is it's easier to be selfish. Force lightning makes it easy to convince someone by causing them pain and other dark side powers fall into the same category. It makes it easier to do what you are trying to do. It's easier to kill someone off then try to rehabilitate them.

The Force is seen as out of whack, people bring up there are at this point no more then two Sith and thousands of Jedi. To make the balance thing even harder to bite, we all love to go on about how the Jedi fell so easily. People make excuses about they were surrounded by troops who they didn't know would turn on them. One problem with this is Yoda, Yoda knew it was going on and people say correctly because he was more in tune with the Force. But what makes it hard to bite, maybe the force was doing the purging allowing it to happen. After the purge there is Darth Siddous and Darth Vader, and Yoda and Obi Wan as your two big guns for Sith and Jedi. Sure there were others of the Jedi, and there were also dark side users here and there (mainly according to non Lucas cannon which may or may not be true). Equilibrium had been reached so to speak. Why did it need to be reached, the Jedi had gotten out of hand and there needed to be a culling.

Much of the force based mythos is eastern philosophy. Oddly the statement we started this about is part of that, but that is because failure to do your job is not a good thing. But that is also why Asians need not to be innovators it's easier to perfect what someone else did then do something new, because there is less risk of failure. Because trying something implies there's a potential for failure. This is why it's hard for many of us westerners to get some of what is going on here, our philosophies are different. It could be argued Lucas didn't fully get it either, or he was making a synthesis of the two.

[Benedict Judas Hel]

Useless? They lost on Endor precisely because the armor did not work

[Heeeere's Olesker!]

Are you joking?

RoTJ. Leia in the slave girl scenes -- and outfit -- was worth the price of admission. "Soon you will learn to appreciate me." Mmmmmmmmm...

[He-Dad]

Are you joking?

RoTJ. Leia in the slave girl scenes -- and outfit -- was worth the price of admission. "Soon you will learn to appreciate me." Mmmmmmmmm...

I don't know if that was the exciting he was going for but you may be right.....

[Heeeere's Olesker!]

I don't know if that was the exciting he was going for but you may be right.....

Hey, exciting is exciting, brother...and if that's not exciting then we've got some brain-dead folks around here.