DC Comics character coming out

[Megalodon]

I heard Batgirl (Barbara Gordon)

[BlueStreak]

So after 4 pages, here's my opinion:

As some others have said - it comes off cheap and gimmicky to take an existing character with years of history and suddenly announce he/she is gay. And I find that kind of demeaning toward the gay community. Now, I'm not gay and I don't even try to pretend that I understand what resonates with the LGBT community, but wouldn't it be more meaningful with better character development to introduce a new character - and ground that story with the direction?

So let's say they take Aquaman or Hawkman or even Batman and announce he's gay. So what happens when a new creative team comes in and rewrites the story a year or two later? Remember when Superman died? or when Batman got his back broken? Both of those story lines resolved and went back to status quo when a new creative team came in.

Or what happens if they cop out and announce generic Green Lantern is gay? How's THAT iconic?

I work in Marketing - specifically Brand Marketing. Know what a Brand is? It's not a logo, it's not a mascot. It's not clever advertising. A Brand is a promise. It's a promise to one's consumers that you will deliver what you say you will.

In DC's case - their brand promise is is summed up here:

"It's a new era at DC Entertainment and the new look reflects a dynamic, bold approach while at the same time celebrates the company's rich heritage and robust portfolio of characters," stated John Rood, EVP of Sales, Marketing and Business Development for DC Entertainment. "It was just a few months ago that Superman, Batman and many of our other Super Heroes were updated when we launched DC Comics - The New 52 and now it's time to do the same for the company's identity while remaining true to the power of storytelling which is still at the heart of DC Entertainment."

I've bolded the specific part for emphasis. It's sad to say it, but I don't think this exercise is going to be a great leap forward in storytelling or DC's promise to entertain me.

I'd much rather see a new hero - with his own problems, challenges, triumphs and story. Just because it'd be a new character doesn't man that he couldn't be a heavy hitter, nor does it mean that he couldn't become a mainstay in the DC mythos. Unfortunately, it seems DC wants to take the easy way out.

That's my 2 cents. Maybe DC will prove me wrong. We'll see.

[wyldman11]

So after 4 pages, here's my opinion:

As some others have said - it comes off cheap and gimmicky to take an existing character with years of history and suddenly announce he/she is gay. And I find that kind of demeaning toward the gay community. Now, I'm not gay and I don't even try to pretend that I understand what resonates with the LGBT community, but wouldn't it be more meaningful with better character development to introduce a new character - and ground that story with the direction?

I think the problem is there is a conception that new characters can never be as great as older characters, in an already established world. There is some truth to that, Green Lantern, Flash, Hawkman, became new characters in the silver age. The rest of the world was rewritten shortly after to compensate. But then you have opposite stories of Wally West being generally speaking more well liked then Barry Allen, Hal there is a split between him and the rest of the Green Lanterns (Kyle complainers it has more to do with how the transfer happened).

Also there are many new characters who were introduced who people just didn't take to or they just don't catch on. But that happens regardless of how a character identifies sexually.

With that said I agree with you and a few times almost said the same thing. But I also realize, the issue is a bit different. I am starting to see how it is and understand it more.

[BlueStreak]

I think the problem is there is a conception that new characters can never be as great as older characters, in an already established world.

Yeah, I hear you - but IMO that's just an excuse for shoddy writing and a lack of creativity.

[EldestSon]

Homosexual fans can finally have a major superhero that everyone and their mother knows as one of their few role models instead of a character who is only known in comic stores (Northstar or Batwoman). Not only could homosexuals love the respected character's heroism, but straight people could as well.

i agree, but it seems like it could be...

major character A: hey, why don't you ever ask me out?
major character B: I'm gay.
major character A: oh, that makes sense. wanna go kick that criminals butt now?
major character B: thought you'd never ask

instead we get ZOMG! YOU GOTTA BUY THIS BOOK CAUSE A MAJOR CHARACTER IS...GAAAAAAAAAAY.

[Kevenn]

So after 4 pages, here's my opinion:

As some others have said - it comes off cheap and gimmicky to take an existing character with years of history and suddenly announce he/she is gay. And I find that kind of demeaning toward the gay community. Now, I'm not gay and I don't even try to pretend that I understand what resonates with the LGBT community, but wouldn't it be more meaningful with better character development to introduce a new character - and ground that story with the direction?

No. They've introduced gay characters like Bunker in Teen Titans. Or even The Olympian in Wonder Woman a couple years ago. Or Creote & Savant in Birds of Prey. And what have we learned from creating new characters whole? That comic fans only want to see the old favorites, and the general public are completely unaware of new characters. Hwell, they even made Obsidian gay several years ago, and he'd been around for years, but it made little impact because he's not a character very largely known or even used all that much. Only an established character that's well-known has the impact to actually grab attention - like this whole publicity campaign is doing.

If you can't pretend to understand what resonates with the gay community, then you probably don't get that having a big name makes a difference, as opposed to another token being thrown our way.

And people say that the character should be a walking stereotype. But so far, the stereotype in comics of a gay man is ultra violent and emotionally flaccid and brooding (see Appollo and Midnighter) - like they're overcompensating for being gay - and gods forbid they have any trace of any non-alpha-male traits. The most refreshing character to come along in a while is Bunker of the Teen Titans - who's actually not miserable and angry all the time - but no one has barely blinked at his introduction - and he hasn't captured the attention of those outside the core readership like this announcement has.

[Barbecue17]

Was talking to a few friends about this:

If DC does use someone like Wally West or Guy Gardner, even though the characeter may not be known to the mainstream public, their role as the Flash or as the Green Lantern would be. Seems highly possible that DC could choose to do this and pick a character who wears an established mantle.

Has Black Lightning been seen in the new 52? I read about 10 of the books, but don't recall seeing him yet. Martian Manhunter was another good guess, although making the character an alien might lessen some of the impact that DC is going for. What about Wildcat? Vibe? Zan (from the Wonder Twins)?

[wyldman11]

No. They've introduced gay characters like Bunker in Teen Titans. Or even The Olympian in Wonder Woman a couple years ago. Or Creote & Savant in Birds of Prey. And what have we learned from creating new characters whole? That comic fans only want to see the old favorites, and the general public are completely unaware of new characters. Hwell, they even made Obsidian gay several years ago, and he'd been around for years, but it made little impact because he's not a character very largely known or even used all that much. Only an established character that's well-known has the impact to actually grab attention - like this whole publicity campaign is doing.

If you can't pretend to understand what resonates with the gay community, then you probably don't get that having a big name makes a difference, as opposed to another token being thrown our way.

And people say that the character should be a walking stereotype. But so far, the stereotype in comics of a gay man is ultra violent and emotionally flaccid and brooding (see Appollo and Midnighter) - like they're overcompensating for being gay - and gods forbid they have any trace of any non-alpha-male traits. The most refreshing character to come along in a while is Bunker of the Teen Titans - who's actually not miserable and angry all the time - but no one has barely blinked at his introduction - and he hasn't captured the attention of those outside the core readership like this announcement has.

I am going to give a few analogies, that is all they are nothing more is being made of them. The analogies are to help others get a better feel for the situation. I am not turning the conversation or anything, they are just analogies.

The first that some on the forums here will get. It's like when some big name celebrity or a popular show has someone reading comics or more specifically playing with or mentioning MOTU in some context, specifically a positive way. The way some fans react is similar. The MOTU while not ostracized really except maybe by other fan communities, may not quite get it to the same extent. But that excitement those who come here and post things like that is similar. The other problem is most of us are at most lukewarm when we here things like this.

The other example others will get, and the main reason for the disclaimer is a religious conversion. Many people of religious thought like hearing about characters being converted or that the character has similar beliefs that they themselves have. The problem is often the character becomes a religious stereotype, or is one of those that they just like to tell people that to remind them because their actions wouldn't prove other wise. The second is typically a character who starts off that way, the first typically after religious conversion. The problem with this comparison is that those who get the most news are the religious stereotypes that tend to give the religion a bad name, or the ones who have to remind people of their religion and the second more then likely doesn't care that a character believes like they do. It's a third group who take it seriously, but are in the middle of those extremes, who have experienced from the more normal types because they openly read a religious text attend regular religious activities etc. And this is where I say yes it happens, and they often aren't the ones doing the same to others but it's not the at the same level of hate as gays are more likely to experience. Also it can affect your entertainment in other ways in both cases, what you do or don't get into because of actions behind the scenes.

Again, analogies to help people see the situation nothing more. And I almost posted this in my previous post but was working on the disclaimer and wording of what I was going to say.

[krosfyah]

If you can't pretend to understand what resonates with the gay community, then you probably don't get that having a big name makes a difference, as opposed to another token being thrown our way.

.

I can kind of understand, but it's also different. I get so sick of hearing 'tokenism' and all the complaining when a character gets black and a prominent role, it is important to have some good characters to rally behind, it's tough because in north america it's still a strong 'white boys club' Straight White Males are an easy sell, anything outside of that it's an uphill battle.

[krosfyah]

If you can't pretend to understand what resonates with the gay community, then you probably don't get that having a big name makes a difference, as opposed to another token being thrown our way.

.

I can kind of understand, but it's also different. I get so sick of hearing 'tokenism' and all the complaining when a character gets black and a prominent role, it is important to have some good characters to rally behind, it's tough because in north america it's still a strong 'white boys club' Straight White Males are an easy sell, anything outside of that it's an uphill battle.

But EVERYTHING is a marketing move, every story, every costume every character trait, they are ALL cash grabs, what matters is making it matter story wise.

[BlueStreak]

If you can't pretend to understand what resonates with the gay community, then you probably don't get that having a big name makes a difference, as opposed to another token being thrown our way.

Well, I can't pretend to understand what resonates with the gay community because I don't understand what resonates with the gay community. I'm not gay so I don't understand it.

Now let me clarify - I'm not judging. But if DC announces Superman is gay tomorrow, I just couldn't buy it. And it's not because I disagree with the character's sexuality, it's because all my life Superman/Clark Kent is in love with Lois Lane. I could never believe it because I've got 40 years of history in my brain that says otherwise. It's no different that Superman dying or Captain America dying or Bruce Wayne hanging up the cowl. As a consumer, I know those are all gimmicks to sell a product and after that promotional period is complete, a new creative team will come back to bring the character back to it's roots.

Yes, I understand having a big name to rally around makes a difference. Just seems to me that a well written new character would carry more gravitas.

My 2 cents - if you disagree, I respect your opinion.

Edit to add: I hear you on the gay characters that have been introduced, but your points support what I'm saying. Bad writing doesn't cut it. And I agree that stereotypes are bad, no matter what ethnicity, gender, sexual identity or religious affiliation the are trying to represent.

[wyldman11]

Ultimate Collosus. He wasn't particularly badly written (no worse than the others). Many fans liked it, many others hated it because his relationship in the main continuity with Kitty Pryde. Some just shrugged and said not the main continuity some hated it still in this group but others didn't care one way or another. Most who hated it felt like they were being stolen from. That is why doing this is a sticky problem you are likely to just shift the fanbase and not gain any real head ground.

I don't remember how much media was put out about it.

Edit to add: I hear you on the gay characters that have been introduced, but your points support what I'm saying. Bad writing doesn't cut it. And I agree that stereotypes are bad, no matter what ethnicity, gender, sexual identity or religious affiliation the are trying to represent.

I wish our language was better with this issue. Many stereotypes are there because they are true, classic examples include Italian family closeness in the US at least. But while it's true, it's not something that is always there. We even will use this, Oh he is an Italian American a conversation point how is his mom doing? (waits for the Italian American males on the forum to pipe up say they aren't close to their moms as some counter example).

But there is the other side which is problematic. It's both enforcing them on someone, and focusing on some that aren't entirely true based on a minority amount within the context which often just happens to be quite vocal.

[Rhanen]

Kevenn, I agree with everything you say.

I also consider that a new character, with really good writing and marketing campaign, that can be alongside another well known established character such as Superman, Batman or WW as an equal, it'd be a more respectful way to represent the gay community.
Of course, it's harder to do and much more work to put into, and big revenue results may not be as immediate as expected from the morbid shock of having "the coming out issue" of XXX character.

DC must have the most gay superhero comic characters library there is, but it is also true that except maybe from Batwoman, pretty much all of them have been portrayed negatively and mostly as villains (Obsidian, Scandal, Apollo, Midnighter).
Pied Piper went from being a reformed villain to murderer and last I heard he was back to good side. I hope he remains that way, since it was quite negative whenever he was involved in Bart Allen's death.

It seems to be also true, that many gay characters are not natural Americans (Bunker, Scandal, NorthStar), which is why I think representation is not being done on full diversity scale.

Please understand, English is not my natural language and sometimes I don't express myself in the best way. In any case, this is my opinion only and I'm not right nor wrong about this topic.

[He-Dad]

Ultimately I don't think a characters sexual orientation should be used to sell comics period. If they're gay - fine, straight - fine. It all boils down to the writing. Why does it have to be this big deal. Next months must have issue- Superman leaves Lois for Jimmy.....that's just silly IMHO. I read comics for the epic battle of good vs. evil....not for who the Superhero or Villain is sleeping with this month. There are many lines I've abandoned because of poor story lines or decisions I didn't agree with [ie. Ultimate Spiderman dying (awesome/epic) and replacing him with Miles (rediculous)]. I'm curious as to who and how honestly, but I'm not going to buy it just because the character is gay....just like I don't buy The Dark Knight just because Batman is straight. I'll buy it if it's a good story because at the end of the day that's what I want to read....a story.

[EldestSon]

Ultimately I don't think a characters sexual orientation should be used to sell comics period. If they're gay - fine, straight - fine. It all boils down to the writing. Why does it have to be this big deal. Next months must have issue- Superman leaves Lois for Jimmy.....that's just silly IMHO. I read comics for the epic battle of good vs. evil....not for who the Superhero or Villain is sleeping with this month. There are many lines I've abandoned because of poor story lines or decisions I didn't agree with [ie. Ultimate Spiderman dying (awesome/epic) and replacing him with Miles (rediculous)]. I'm curious as to who and how honestly, but I'm not going to buy it just because the character is gay....just like I don't buy The Dark Knight just because Batman is straight. I'll buy it if it's a good story because at the end of the day that's what I want to read....a story.

at the risk of contradicting myself...

superman / lois romance stories have sold a lot of books...and there's been a lot of advertising for that romance (and others). The whole scott / jean relationship sold a ton of x-books.

maybe we are looking at it from the wrong perspetive. there shouldn't be anything wrong with DC or Marvel running ads for a romantic story (or stories! why only one at a time?!?) between two characters of the same sex.

[wyldman11]

at the risk of contradicting myself...

superman / lois romance stories have sold a lot of books...and there's been a lot of advertising for that romance (and others). The whole scott / jean relationship sold a ton of x-books.

maybe we are looking at it from the wrong perspetive. there shouldn't be anything wrong with DC or Marvel running ads for a romantic story (or stories! why only one at a time?!?) between two characters of the same sex.

I think the response is did they have to media blitz those? Sure they kind of did for Peter and Mary Jane's, and Clark's and Lois' weddings but then there is also the issue that they later decided that was a bad idea so they retconned them. How many marriages have lasted in comics that started within the comics? The only one I can think of is Sue and Reed. So why are people excited that Northstar is getting married comic marriages don't seem to last.

And as I say this I find this article

http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/0...il-noto-cover/

only 3 of the 9 couples on the cover are still together, and two of those are actually fairly recent pairings. The others end in anything from divorce, to cosmic wish, to people going crazy.

[He-Dad]

at the risk of contradicting myself...

superman / lois romance stories have sold a lot of books...and there's been a lot of advertising for that romance (and others). The whole scott / jean relationship sold a ton of x-books.

maybe we are looking at it from the wrong perspetive. there shouldn't be anything wrong with DC or Marvel running ads for a romantic story (or stories! why only one at a time?!?) between two characters of the same sex.

This isn't an epic romance story though.....it's being marketed as check out who's coming out of the closet. I still don't see how just being gay should be central to a storyline. A love affair I get and I agree there is nothing wrong with those involved being the same sex. As far as Lois/Clark and Scott/Jean.....there was always more to the story then they're sex lives. Scott and Jean was integral in the whole Phoenix story line and the aftermath of her loss was a big part of the evolution of Scott. As far as Lois and Clark, it wasn't billed as buy Superman this week - he gets it on with Lois. Not to many in this special episode of Superman.....kinda things going on.

[wyldman11]

Hmm another guess maybe they are going to reintroduce the Wonder Twins.

[gbagok]

Hmm another guess maybe they are going to reintroduce the Wonder Twins.

Wouldn't that make them seem like pale copies of Marvel's Northstar and Aurora?

[EldestSon]

This isn't an epic romance story though.....it's being marketed as check out who's coming out of the closet. I still don't see how just being gay should be central to a storyline. A love affair I get and I agree there is nothing wrong with those involved being the same sex. As far as Lois/Clark and Scott/Jean.....there was always more to the story then they're sex lives. Scott and Jean was integral in the whole Phoenix story line and the aftermath of her loss was a big part of the evolution of Scott. As far as Lois and Clark, it wasn't billed as buy Superman this week - he gets it on with Lois. Not to many in this special episode of Superman.....kinda things going on.

my response was based on your post above.

you said that you wouldn't want to see "superman leaves lois for jimmy". you say that's silly and you talk about not sexualizing. superman leaving lois for jimmy isn't sexualizing anything - it's a romantic story.

there's definitely been big story lines around superman and lois - like the wedding story (as wyld mentioned). Same with spidey and MJ. One More Day was a HUGE story because they were breaking those two up. people weren't complaing that it was romance or sexualizing - they complained because it involved mephisto and they didn't want those two to break up.

the phoenix story wouldn't have been nearly as good if there wasn't a romantic piece to it. it was integral.

btw, was it wrong when archie was choosing vernoica over betty? what if he was choosing jughead over betty?

all i'm saying (and i've said this before) is there's a HUGE difference between sex and romance.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Supposedly Wonder Woman broke up with Steve Trevor in JLA; maybe she just isn't into dudes.

[Rhanen]

I recall once that The Beast was going to be used as coming out of the closet, declaring himself to be gay in Grant Morrison's run on New X-Men. There wasn't much media hype at that moment except for then Morrison being quite censored for Marvel not allowing him to let Xorn be Magneto, and some issues later, Beast confess Cyclops he was "joking" or something like that (sigh)
Does someone know if there was some censorship there as well or Morrison's thoughts about what happened there?

On the other hand, after 5 years working on the character, Morrison has recently stated in an interview: "Batman is so gay"; so I'd not be surprised if Johns & Didio may consider that as a good idea.

[He-Dad]

my response was based on your post above.

you said that you wouldn't want to see "superman leaves lois for jimmy". you say that's silly and you talk about not sexualizing. superman leaving lois for jimmy isn't sexualizing anything - it's a romantic story.

there's definitely been big story lines around superman and lois - like the wedding story (as wyld mentioned). Same with spidey and MJ. One More Day was a HUGE story because they were breaking those two up. people weren't complaing that it was romance or sexualizing - they complained because it involved mephisto and they didn't want those two to break up.

the phoenix story wouldn't have been nearly as good if there wasn't a romantic piece to it. it was integral.

btw, was it wrong when archie was choosing vernoica over betty? what if he was choosing jughead over betty?

all i'm saying (and i've said this before) is there's a HUGE difference between sex and romance.

I agree with everything you said btw.... The wedding stories were huge, Scott and Jean integral, huge difference between sex and romance......but I don't see how a coming out story has anything to do with romance....at all. Maybe that wasn't the best example that I used...but even then I don't see it as romantic, it would be a slap in the face to Superman fans and probably would kill the line.

Anyway, the way they're going about it makes it a gimic to sell comics. Seems kinda cheap to me.

And wylde...the wonder twins, good choice.....

[BlueStreak]

Scott Snyder of DC Comics tweets that the announcement was "a character not seen since the relaunch will come out as gay."

He also has several tweets stating it's not Bruce Wayne. He also tweets that Bruce is "Gothamsexual" meaning he has no time for anything other than saving Gotham City's soul.

[EldestSon]

I agree with everything you said btw.... The wedding stories were huge, Scott and Jean integral, huge difference between sex and romance......but I don't see how a coming out story has anything to do with romance....at all. Maybe that wasn't the best example that I used...but even then I don't see it as romantic, it would be a slap in the face to Superman fans and probably would kill the line.

Anyway, the way they're going about it makes it a gimic to sell comics. Seems kinda cheap to me.

And wylde...the wonder twins, good choice.....

i think we're on the same page. i agree that a character coming out shouldn't be a gimmick. it would be better if they just started doing a story with a gay character as one of the main characters and just go for it like you would any other characters - including romance, love triangles, tragic romance, etc.