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Thread: MOTUC Q&A's From Around the Net (10/1/2012)

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    Should there be no more media then? Should no one ever try to make new MOTU stories?
    No, there should always be new attempts - no disagreement there. I'm just a bit disappointed so far.

    That said, the new Orko comic was great fun & I usually dislike Orko (though he has been more likeable in 200x).
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  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Criss79 View Post
    I respect everyones opinions on this thread but personally never affiliated any character with another romantically,sexually,whatever it may be..
    But you did. You knew Randor and Marlena were married; and the villages were full of husbands and wives. Not to mention all of the main characters that had romantic/relationship/sexual interactions – from Frosta to Cringer. It may have resided in your unconsciousness but I find it hard to believe that anyone missed those messages. You may not have played out those elements of the story with your toys but they were there.

    The thing is that hetero fans have never really had to question any of that. They saw Randor with Marlena and knew that was ‘normal’, just like their parents, and when they grew up, them. A number of fans have stated that these human interactions didn’t exist for them but perhaps they did, they just didn’t stand out so much because there was no need to question them. It was as normal as breathing air.

    Even in today’s society being gay is considered different to the norm; instead of being a different kind of normal.


    Quote Originally Posted by hadley View Post
    I think you're right on with a lot of what you have to say, but dude, this would divide stuff further than it currently is. People are already going nuts at the thought of violence in the comic books. Like people fighting a war with swords and guns aren't trying to hurt each other. The slightest turn into mature territory and the "think of the children" types come out of the woodwork.

    At its core, MOTU is a story about war. I'd be interested to see how it affects the characters and their relationships as they win victories, suffer defeats, and lose loved ones. It'd be a very profound and interesting story for say Spinnerella to fall in battle and how Netossa deals with it, and how her friends and fellow warriors support her. But we have to face it. MOTU's fanbase is already a very fragile thing, with slivers of the fandom getting all kinds of upset when things aren't done to their personal ideals.

    MOTU isn't ready to tackle this kind of challenge, and its fanbase isn't ready for the ride.
    What a refreshing perspective. Rather than question whether a character should be gay you’ve turned your focus to what makes that character a real being. The fact that they’re gay is simply one element of the whole picture. IMO that is exactly how such things should be handled.

    You are right about the fanbase not being ready for things like this – myself included. I am struggling with the concept of certain characters being killed off.

    One a lighter note, I feel sorry for any homophobic MOTU fans out there because they are kinda not allowed to say it out loud – there’s too many of us to deal with!

  3. #153
    Sorcerer of Zalesia bcrduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisware View Post
    I hear what you're saying about the tar swamp--I just don't think this discussion is about politics, religion, or, especially, sex. At least, it shouldn't be. Some members seem to be conflating sex with the mere acknowledgment that gay couples exist. That is just incorrect. It is as ridiculous as suggesting that every time I mention I have a wife I am infusing the general forum with a discussion about sex.
    Thank you for making this point. It's an incredibly important one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barezz View Post
    Gay relationships/characters should be no different. I don't think I can deliver my points better on that subject than bcrduke did above me
    Thank you. And thank you for understanding what I was trying to say!

    Quote Originally Posted by chrisware View Post
    Why must it be left vague? Stating that two characters are "together," gay or straight, should not require obfuscation.

    Please do not speak for me or my childhood. No one is trying to sex up your favorite cartoon. Why are you equating the mention of a gay couple with an attempt to incorporate sex? They are not the same thing.

    How does the mere mention of a gay character drag MOTU into the land of dark, sexy, and gritty? I'm sorry but implying that it does is just plain ignorant.

    How is this changing the sexual orientation of the character? Where was it stated that Netossa is straight? The fact that you or anyone else assume that all characters are straight is part of the problem.

    Thanks, but don't speak for me or my kids. My son turned 4 yesterday and he is aware that some families have a mommy and daddy, some have only one, some have two mommies, and some have two daddies. His head didn't explode and his childhood was not ruined by this information.
    This post is also INCREDIBLY important.

    This is the mindset that I hope all people might have. It confuses me when people aren't of this mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by He-Dad View Post
    I agree with this completely. Some parents are fine with it but many others aren't. As a toy company it's probably beneficial to error on the side of caution.
    I disagree. If we are always cautious, then we don't evolve. Look at this thread... it's been an amazing conversation. Some of the sentiments have been enlightened. Some of them have been difficult to read. But I think this has been a great thread... it might make everyone think about what I was saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    As He-dad pointed out. A lot of parents do not believe that a toy line is the proper place for such subjects. Also, since its impossible to state such a thing without 'offending' some people... I REALLY don't believe this is the correct forum to have the debates about what is and isn't considered 'acceptable' for children.
    If I get in trouble for this, so be it, but I do not accept your relegating all things gay to the Tar Swamp. The idea that people talking about a relationship between Netossa and Spinnerella is Tar Swamp material is disgusting to me. If that is Tar Swamp material, then so is discussion of a relationship between Teela and Adam. If you want to believe that one relationship is morally better than the other, I'd wish that I could change that, but you'd have every right to do so. Please don't bring that kind of sentiment here. It doesn't belong in this community.

    They are making a political statement that can and will alienate a large portion of thier customer base. If they do NOT include these elements... they loose NOTHING.
    You're wrong. Same sex relationships introduced into MOTU in the same manner as the opposite sex relationships is not a "Political statement," it's just balance and a good dose of REALITY.

    Unless you've taken a survey, you can't speak for this community in that way. Do you actually know that a "large portion" of Mattel's customer base for this line would walk away from Mattel because of the mention of a relationship, for example between Netossa and Spinnerella? You don't know that... and if those people did walk away, I'd say good-riddance.

    He-man and She-ra ALREADY have a large number of Gay fans. Obvioulsy, there was SOMETHING in the property that they were able to relate to.... WITHOUT the express mentioning of who pairs up with who.
    Theres no REASON for them to DO that... and PLENTY of reason NOT to.
    What are the "PLENTY of reason(s) NOT to?" I'd like to know.

    And really... why does this bother you so much? What do you care? Would mentioning that Netossa & Spinnerella were partners whose home was destroyed by the Horde somehow ruin your experience with MOTU??

    Quote Originally Posted by Stygian360 View Post
    With all due respect, this kind of sexuality 'retconning' is exactly why I despised DC Comics turning Earth-2 GL homosexual. I have zero problem with the idea of gays as important characters in my comics, TV programs, or toys, but I do have a problem with companies turning gender neutral or already excepted as straight characters gay simply to be topical, generate sales, or be controversial. Create a new character(s) and designate them as Gay/Lesbian if it suites the storyline or more importantly the character, but don't retcon characters as gay, please. In some weird way I feel it does a huge disservice to that existing characters heritage, whatever that heritage may be.
    I don't think in the case of MOTUC that this type of thing would be used for generating sales, and it's not really retconning either... Netossa & Spinnerella were companions in the cartoon, and the mini-comics. So, if anything, it would be kind of a happy accident... I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    Holding MOTU back from growing into honest literary characters like Gandalf or even Harry Potter. Batman might have started out as a comic book, but now there are games, comics, even BOOKS about the character and his world. He's not just a comic book character any longer. We even have people writing books that explore his methods, psyche and equipment. Transformers is on the way to that level, given 50 more years. Those characters are more than just toys now. MOTU could be the same way.
    TOTALLY agree. I would LOVE graphic novels about these characters. That was one of the coolest parts of 200X for me: we got into more of the background of secondary and tertiary characters!! I always want more of that!!

    Quote Originally Posted by hadley View Post
    Please cite it. I have read this thread and it seems like a sensible debate to me. This is a very heavy accusation you are idly throwing around.
    When people suggest that anything non-straight, even a gentle suggestion of a gay relationship is Tar Swamp material, it's easy to feel offended.

    I will not allow people here to say that positive, non-straight archetypes are Tar Swamp material without responding. It's ridiculously offensive. That type of sentiment is prejudicial... and if you can't understand that, then I invite you to spend some time with a gay person, and then try to see this thread through their eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by He-Boy View Post
    People are upset at being called ignorant while suggesting that they don’t want relationships in MOTU. Are they blind to all of the hetero romantic/relationship storylines? Could you imagine if Mekaneck threw himself at Bow like Frosta did He-Man? Not only is there hypocrisy there, but the gap between representations is a canyon.

    Some people have argued that it logical to have the Randor/Marlena/Adam/Adora family unit because that’s what exists in real life. Well, so do lesbian couples.

    Saying that these conversation belong in the tar swamp or that children should not be exposed to gay relationships is exactly what makes being gay such an evil taboo. The sooner society gets over itself and realizes that it doesn’t matter, the sooner we’ll look back on today and realize how embarrassing it is that we even had such discussions.

    Could you imagine if people protested a woman being in power or the mere existence of a non-Caucasian character? You would be laughed out of town.
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  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by hadley View Post
    Please cite it. I have read this thread and it seems like a sensible debate to me. This is a very heavy accusation you are idly throwing around.
    I cannot speak for that person, but while as a gay man I recognize that not every situation is homophobia and think people may jump there too quickly sometimes, it does feel like the classic "flaunting" argument or the "tolerance" thing (I "tolerate" you but I don't want to see you).

    If a male/female couple is walking through a city park holding hands, it's a non-issue. If a same-gender couple walks through the same city park holding hands, it's "flaunting it", even when they may at the same time say, "I have no problem with you, I tolerate you, I just don't want to see it.

    So someone who hasn't commented before about other things in MOTU where relationships have come up, like the casual mention of Bo/Adora, or Evil Lyn/Skeletor, but when it may be Neotessa and Spinnerella, then it's "adult relationships should not be in MOTU".

    It may not be outwardly hostile, but it is a form of homophobia (though I am not throwing that out at any poster in particular, simply the type of attitude I am describing in general in life).

    All that said, I wouldn't campaign for it, but it wouldn't be unappreciated for a subtle mention. While I generally dislike the word applied to romantic relationships IRL (I don't have a "friend" or a "partner" I have a boyfriend or spouse/husband), I wouldn't have any problem with a mention of a "partner" here as it leaves it up to interpretation and could have multiple meanings.

    But basically - the offense that can be taken is the overall thought that if a character is oriented to relationships with same gender it's automatically an "adult topic" or "adult content", whereas I never heard anyone really say much about too much "adult content" when they introduced the idea of Evil Lyn/Skeletor or Bo/Adora, but suddenly Spineralla and Neotessa would be "too adult".

    To be honest, though, I think the whole discussion there is moot as, "adult" or not, this is not a children's line. It is not aimed at kids. It says "adult collector" right on it.

    I think it would be interesting to ask Erika Schimer what she thought of it and what her intentions were when developing the characters on the show (as clearly she had a large influence on the show as we know now) and that she is herself gay. There are Jem fans who see gay relationships in that show, but I have spoken to the writers directly and it wasn't an intention at the time. I wonder if it was on the part of Filmation. Remember, that like Jem, yes, the character names and very basic vital information was provided by the toy companies, but the television shows largely created most of the mythos around the characters with little input from the toy companies aside from basic look and name/job/etc. I'd be very curious what their intentions were, if some of the things fans have picked up on are just interpretation or intentional implications.

  5. #155
    Toy Guru for President! He-Dad's Avatar
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    I disagree. If we are always cautious, then we don't evolve. Look at this thread... it's been an amazing conversation. Some of the sentiments have been enlightened. Some of them have been difficult to read. But I think this has been a great thread... it might make everyone think about what I was saying.
    While I agree that this has been a very civil conversation, I still think there are many parents, myself including, who find it unnecessary to include sexual orientation on toys (gay or straight). That's what your imagination is for. Mattel shouldn't have to tell you for you to decide that in your cannon that is how it is. As I mentioned earlier, I also felt it was unnessary to throw in the comment about Bow being in love with Adora and I thought the mini digital comic with the Evil Lyn sex scene was rather unnessary as well cause it made her look cheap and was rather cliche (woman sleeps with man to get what she wants). I'm not a prude, I'm not conservative....I just think there is a time and place for everything.....a two paragraph blurb on the back of a toy isn't it.

  6. #156
    Sorcerer of Zalesia bcrduke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Dad View Post
    While I agree that this has been a very civil conversation, I still think there are many parents, myself including, who find it unnecessary to include sexual orientation on toys (gay or straight). That's what your imagination is for. Mattel shouldn't have to tell you for you to decide that in your cannon that is how it is. As I mentioned earlier, I also felt it was unnessary to throw in the comment about Bow being in love with Adora and I thought the mini digital comic with the Evil Lyn sex scene was rather unnessary as well cause it made her look cheap and was rather cliche (woman sleeps with man to get what she wants). I'm not a prude, I'm not conservative....I just think there is a time and place for everything.....a two paragraph blurb on the back of a toy isn't it.
    I get what you're saying EtherianChronicles just explained so eloquently how I feel... that's what I was trying to get at... that the mention of a relationship between Spinnerella and Netossa, if mentioned for a good reason in the story, shouldn't be "too adult." That's what I mean.
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  7. #157
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    Silly me.. all this time I actually thought Netossa and Spinnerella were sisters

  8. #158
    Toy Guru for President! He-Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcrduke View Post
    I get what you're saying EtherianChronicles just explained so eloquently how I feel... that's what I was trying to get at... that the mention of a relationship between Spinnerella and Netossa, if mentioned for a good reason in the story, shouldn't be "too adult." That's what I mean.
    I do agree with that. I think its silly that's its ok to talk about straight relationships but anytime a gay relationship is brought up people want it in the Tar Swamp. The world doesn't work that way...we all know that by now. I don't want to shelter my children from the realities of the world. At the same token, they don't need to learn those life lessons from the cardback of a toy. If Netossa and Spinnerella are dating, put it in a dynamic story....bio's are not dynamic stories. It would come off as a lame attempt at being pc or trying to appease a segment of the fan base and not in a productive way. Now in a comic or a new tv show or movie I say go for it as long as it's done in a non-graphic way...like Randor and Marlena for example. There relationship has never been sexual or graphic in nature and it furthers and deepens the story. They're a mom and dad to the most powerful man and woman in the universe. That's as far as relationships need to go in a children's property. I know people are saying they want a more adult MOTU Universe....and that's fine too. We're getting that with the DC comics. I wish I could share everything with my child as he loves these toys as much as I do but as things become more adult I find I have to share less and less. That's kinda disapointing to me. That's why I spoke up about the evil lynn thing and the orientation on the bio thing. Yes its a war and people are going to die....and I don't share that either. He'd be pretty sad if he knew Gwildor, the Sorceress, Man at Arms, and Stratos were dead. So I don't share that. I don't share that Bow has a crush on Adora. I let him decide how his adventures go. (He's a big fan of having Teela save He-man from the chains in Snake Mountain btw). I think as adults we lose that and some people need to be fed a cannon. I think we should be able to determine some of these things for ourselves. (In my cannon Bow has no interest in Adora or She-ra by the way, they are fellow warriors and too busy fighting the Horde to worry about such things.....besides, he's constantly surrounded by beautiful women and manages to stay single...hmmm). EC is also right, we don't always speak up about other relationships....but as I said, I don't share them unless they are vital and move the story. (this is He-man's dad, this is his mom). If Son of Skeletor ever comes THEN I'll do the same (this is his dad, this is his mom...kinda messed up cause to me Skeletor is uncapable of love but whatever. Maybe it was magical or the result of the christmas spirit).

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    Quote Originally Posted by NagAAsi View Post
    Silly me.. all this time I actually thought Netossa and Spinnerella were sisters
    They were in the same sororiety.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    Some fans want MOTU to take them back to an innocent time when they were kids, not grow up along with them with character growth and mature story elements. I think MOTU can do BOTH for each group of fans. The fans who want the mature stuff don't have to pick up the kiddie fare, while the kiddie fans could skip the mature stuff.
    But.... We only have ONE MOTU property. If we had 7 comics, 2 cartoons and 3 toy lines... I would agree with a more 'adult' version and a 'family friendly' one. However, as we only have ONE... it's really got to be for everyone, young AND old...



    Quote Originally Posted by chrisware View Post
    I want to respond to your last post, but please understand that I am not trying to offend you or anyone. I will try to be specific and factual--if only to make clearer what I have been trying to say.

    I did not realize that any of my comments were being taken as an attack on anyone's religious beliefs. Nearly all my friends are either Christian, Jewish, or Muslim. Very few identify themselves as irreligious (though I do). However, none of them have even the slightest problem with someone being gay. In fact, several gay friends consider themselves Christian. I don't think that you, I, or anyone else should assume that religion = anti-gay..
    This is where things get tricky. The bible in many, MANY places calls out homosexuality as Sexual immorality, and that is called out as sin. It is not a WORSE sin than all the OTHER forms of Sexual immorality, but christian parents are to teach that it is 'wrong'.

    I don't have any less an opinion of a Man living with another man than I do a man shacking up with his girlfriend.

    Society in general embraces MANY forms of sexual immorality, and i'll agree that it IS hypocritical of society at large. But accepted does not mean 'right.'

    If the Bible says 'gay = wrong' and you use words like ignorant' (amongst many others people throw around whenever there is a disagreement on the concept of 'normal or right') then that IS a direct attack on my opinions and the religion that formed them. Even if you don't intend them to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by chrisware View Post
    I was disagreeing that a large portion of MOTU fans would be offended--I don't think that's the case. Some, yes. Most, I believe, would not.

    I hear what you're saying about the tar swamp--I just don't think this discussion is about politics, religion, or, especially, sex. At least, it shouldn't be. Some members seem to be conflating sex with the mere acknowledgment that gay couples exist. That is just incorrect. It is as ridiculous as suggesting that every time I mention I have a wife I am infusing the general forum with a discussion about sex.
    The question was a legitimate question. The answer a legitimate answer. Discussion about what 'vintage episode' hinted at what... was also legitimate. Once people start talking about how society should Evolve (politics), detractor's are ignorant (religion) and what is 'normal' and how people should be raising their children... I feel it gets close into that offensive Tar Swamp territory.

    PARENTS are the ones who should teach their children what is 'normal' and 'acceptable' not the back of a toy box. CERTAINLY not one in a sub where you lose any parental control over who or what is coming in the mailbox.

    SOME people want beloved characters to become gay role models.... many OTHERS do not.




    As for the toyline 'evolving'.... I've seen a LOT of examples of Transformers, GiJOE, Star Wars....

    Have ANY of those evolved to DECENT place?!?!?! Man... Michael Bay is often ranked up there with Hitler... and GIJOE Resolute, the movie, and renagades is often criticized beyond words.... and lets not even GO with the Star Wars Prequels...

    If the choice is 'stick with the classics' or 'watch the property GROW... and swirl down the drain...' I'll stick with the classics EVERY time

    I only caught a GLIMPSE of Thundercats... but it seemed cool, and I REALLY enjoyed the new Voltron show... but REALLY the 'evolving experiments' have been more miss than hit.

  10. #160
    Heroic Warrior He-Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    This is where things get tricky. The bible in many, MANY places calls out homosexuality as Sexual immorality, and that is called out as sin. It is not a WORSE sin than all the OTHER forms of Sexual immorality, but christian parents are to teach that it is 'wrong'.

    I don't have any less an opinion of a Man living with another man than I do a man shacking up with his girlfriend.

    Society in general embraces MANY forms of sexual immorality, and i'll agree that it IS hypocritical of society at large. But accepted does not mean 'right.'

    If the Bible says 'gay = wrong' and you use words like ignorant' (amongst many others people throw around whenever there is a disagreement on the concept of 'normal or right') then that IS a direct attack on my opinions and the religion that formed them. Even if you don't intend them to be.

    The question was a legitimate question. The answer a legitimate answer. Discussion about what 'vintage episode' hinted at what... was also legitimate. Once people start talking about how society should Evolve (politics), detractor's are ignorant (religion) and what is 'normal' and how people should be raising their children... I feel it gets close into that offensive Tar Swamp territory.

    PARENTS are the ones who should teach their children what is 'normal' and 'acceptable' not the back of a toy box. CERTAINLY not one in a sub where you lose any parental control over who or what is coming in the mailbox.

    SOME people want beloved characters to become gay role models.... many OTHERS do not.

    As for the toyline 'evolving'.... I've seen a LOT of examples of Transformers, GiJOE, Star Wars....

    Have ANY of those evolved to DECENT place?!?!?! Man... Michael Bay is often ranked up there with Hitler... and GIJOE Resolute, the movie, and renagades is often criticized beyond words.... and lets not even GO with the Star Wars Prequels...

    If the choice is 'stick with the classics' or 'watch the property GROW... and swirl down the drain...' I'll stick with the classics EVERY time

    I only caught a GLIMPSE of Thundercats... but it seemed cool, and I REALLY enjoyed the new Voltron show... but REALLY the 'evolving experiments' have been more miss than hit.
    I worship a belief where being gay is not immoral. Why does Christianity get preference? Because it’s a numbers game. I’ve come to tolerate that - but what I can never accept is someone holding out the hand of friendship while calling me immoral. How insulting. I wish you hadn’t brought religion into this; you’ve just destroyed a civil conversation. Unless we bite our tongues this thread will now get closed. How I long for a day where someone else’s beliefs don’t dictate my life. It’s so easy to stand on a soapbox when you’re not being asked to change.

    To anyone concerned that the concept of a gay character will conflict with their beliefs, we're not asking you to change your beliefs. Just accept that it exists. Feel free to pray for Netossa.
    Last edited by He-Boy; October 9, 2012 at 05:04am.

  11. #161
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    Okay, well despite my last message this has turned into a topic about religion and sexual identity. Sorry, but according to the rules this topic needs to be discussed in the Tar Swamp.

    It is ENTIRELY possible to have a conversation about characters of the same gender having a relationship just like we talk about other relationships like Randor and Marlena's marriage or Frosta's flirtation with He-man without going into Tar Swamp territory. If your opinion prevents you from doing so, then do not express it here - go to the Tar Swamp.

    If anyone wants to have a debate about sexual identity and how it relates to religion or politics it must go in the Tar Swamp. Period. Please let's keep it on topic and keep it within the board guidelines.


    Thanks everyone!

  12. #162
    Heroic Master of 200X MegaGearMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    But.... We only have ONE MOTU property. If we had 7 comics, 2 cartoons and 3 toy lines... I would agree with a more 'adult' version and a 'family friendly' one. However, as we only have ONE... it's really got to be for everyone, young AND old...
    A Transformers Prime novel or comic book is more mature than a Transformers Prime coloring or activity book. It's the same canon, but different levels of maturity.

    As for the toyline 'evolving'.... I've seen a LOT of examples of Transformers, GiJOE, Star Wars....

    Have ANY of those evolved to DECENT place?!?!?! Man... Michael Bay is often ranked up there with Hitler... and GIJOE Resolute, the movie, and renagades is often criticized beyond words.... and lets not even GO with the Star Wars Prequels...

    If the choice is 'stick with the classics' or 'watch the property GROW... and swirl down the drain...' I'll stick with the classics EVERY time

    I only caught a GLIMPSE of Thundercats... but it seemed cool, and I REALLY enjoyed the new Voltron show... but REALLY the 'evolving experiments' have been more miss than hit.
    G1 had the child sidekicks Spike and Carly grow into parents. Optimus Prime had a heroic last stand. Galvatron killed Starscream after years of build up. Beast Wars had a villain turn heroic because she loved a hero. Dinobot gave up his life defending humanity. RAH had Duke and Scarlett as a couple, while in the comics, Scarlett was in a relationship with Snake Eyes.

    And those are classic examples, without going into modern territory such as Arcee's angle about her partners getting killed in TF Prime.

    Hasbro toylines routinely venture into much more mature territory.

    The Blonde Teela (Battleground and Alcala Teela) Thread
    The Cloak and Dagger Evil-Lyn (The Real 200X Evil-Lyn) Thread
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  13. #163
    grumpy old dragon scott metzger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    As for the toyline 'evolving'.... I've seen a LOT of examples of Transformers, GiJOE, Star Wars....

    Have ANY of those evolved to DECENT place?!?!?! Man... Michael Bay is often ranked up there with Hitler... and GIJOE Resolute, the movie, and renagades is often criticized beyond words.... and lets not even GO with the Star Wars Prequels...

    If the choice is 'stick with the classics' or 'watch the property GROW... and swirl down the drain...' I'll stick with the classics EVERY time

    I only caught a GLIMPSE of Thundercats... but it seemed cool, and I REALLY enjoyed the new Voltron show... but REALLY the 'evolving experiments' have been more miss than hit.
    That is often the case, where the "new vision" has a major case of cataracts. Most of the time it is because the folks in charge are so busy putting their stamp on it that they lose something important that made the property popular to begin with. I was leary of Thundercats' new incarnation, but found that, although a lot different in story, the main crux of the story and the characters is still there. it's still the tale of a young cat trying to live up to the title and role he's been thrust into, and a malevolent evil bent on stopping him. Many of the trappings have changed, but the new vision has coherence, and things like Lion-O bringing the many factions on Third Earth together harkens back to the spirit of the old show. But too often, this isn't the case; much as I enjoyed the 2002 cartoon and the way it treated the villains as much more dangerous, there were a few things that were lost in the translation. Some of the character stuff was weak, brought down by stiff dialogue. THere were bright spots, like when Duncan laid it on the line to the Sorceress about Teela, but other times the characters came off as flat. And the tendency of just making the villains more powerful week after week rather than giving them better motivations got a little repetitious (original Marzo was much more interesting as a scheming immortal with a disturbing penchant for using children than the new version, a big powerful guy with a magic stone).

    The only way a new version of an old property works, for the most part, is if it holds onto the core things that made the original special. And that, unfortunatley, is not what usually happens.
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  14. #164
    Heroic Master of 200X MegaGearMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott metzger View Post
    That is often the case, where the "new vision" has a major case of cataracts. Most of the time it is because the folks in charge are so busy putting their stamp on it that they lose something important that made the property popular to begin with. I was leary of Thundercats' new incarnation, but found that, although a lot different in story, the main crux of the story and the characters is still there. it's still the tale of a young cat trying to live up to the title and role he's been thrust into, and a malevolent evil bent on stopping him. Many of the trappings have changed, but the new vision has coherence, and things like Lion-O bringing the many factions on Third Earth together harkens back to the spirit of the old show. But too often, this isn't the case; much as I enjoyed the 2002 cartoon and the way it treated the villains as much more dangerous, there were a few things that were lost in the translation. Some of the character stuff was weak, brought down by stiff dialogue. THere were bright spots, like when Duncan laid it on the line to the Sorceress about Teela, but other times the characters came off as flat. And the tendency of just making the villains more powerful week after week rather than giving them better motivations got a little repetitious (original Marzo was much more interesting as a scheming immortal with a disturbing penchant for using children than the new version, a big powerful guy with a magic stone).

    The only way a new version of an old property works, for the most part, is if it holds onto the core things that made the original special. And that, unfortunatley, is not what usually happens.
    I disagree. The problem is that I think people are so married to the old version, that they can't give any new versions a try.

    I think sometimes, the new version beats the old one by improving on things that the original version lacked or venturing into new territory. While it lacked some of Filmation's visual flair and charm, MYP had continuity throughout the series, great battles, secondary character focus and a more defeatable He-Man, by the universe's worst villains. I'd rather see Marzo as the powerful wizard with an amulet than a Shakespearean villain, who is more of a menace to children than to the most powerful man in the universe.

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  15. #165
    Heroic Warrior hauke's Avatar
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    Dr Who is considered a TV show for kids in the UK and it has lots of sexual references and gay relationships. The toyline has gay characters as well and those are available in toy stores in the UK. I have yet to see reports from the UK that child innocence has declined since that series started again a couple of years ago. So I do not see a reason why a gay relationship could not be established in a toyline like MOTU too. Oh and while I did not care much for female action figures as a kid in general I always wanted to have at least one female in the line so that the hero could "get the girl" as well as defeat the villain in the end. Relationships were an element of my play pattern even though I did not think about sex at that age.
    Last edited by hauke; October 9, 2012 at 02:23pm.
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  16. #166
    Toy Guru for President! He-Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hauke View Post
    Dr Who is considered a TV show for kids in the UK and it has lots of sexual references and gay relationships. The toyline has gay characters as well and those are available in toy stores in the UK. I have yet to see reports from the UK that child innocence has declined since that series started again a couple of years ago. So I do not see a reason why a gay relationship could not be established in a toyline like MOTU too. Oh and while I did not care much for female action figures as a kid in general I always wanted to have at least one female in the line so that the hero could "get the girl" as well as defeat the villain in the end. Relationships were an element of my play pattern even though I did not think about sex at that age.
    Dr. Who is not considered a kids show in America. Guess we're not as progressive here. In Europe I've seen full nudity on billboards before....never here. Mattel is still an American company. What's fine over the pond is not always considered fine here.

  17. #167
    Heroic Warrior Eternian Poet's Avatar
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    Interesting thread. Very thoughtful, fair things said about human relationships. Some weird, religious stuff said too.

    Well done for the things you said & the way you said them, brcduke.
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  18. #168
    Heroic Warrior enoch's Avatar
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    You want to know why the sexual preference wasnt mentioned in the bio? Because it was only hinted at in filmation. And at the time the bio was written, mattel didnt have the rights to it. Its that simple!

  19. #169
    Heroic Master of 200X MegaGearMax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hauke View Post
    Dr Who is considered a TV show for kids in the UK and it has lots of sexual references and gay relationships. The toyline has gay characters as well and those are available in toy stores in the UK. I have yet to see reports from the UK that child innocence has declined since that series started again a couple of years ago. So I do not see a reason why a gay relationship could not be established in a toyline like MOTU too. Oh and while I did not care much for female action figures as a kid in general I always wanted to have at least one female in the line so that the hero could "get the girl" as well as defeat the villain in the end. Relationships were an element of my play pattern even though I did not think about sex at that age.
    Dr. Who is considered a kid's show across the pond? The British are pretty hardcore... I see Wolfsfang in a whole new light now.

    Quote Originally Posted by enoch View Post
    You want to know why the sexual preference wasnt mentioned in the bio? Because it was only hinted at in filmation. And at the time the bio was written, mattel didnt have the rights to it. Its that simple!
    I think Toyguru "fixes" things using the bios.

    Mods, warn me if I'm pushing your boundaries as I mean no harm: While selling Bow, TG made it absolutely clear down to the Toyfare advertisements that the character was straight and not gay (I guess a man hanging out with a whole bunch of females MUST be gay, right?) as some fans have rumored for years. Mattel even gave fans the ability to change his heart to a dot, if they thought that the heart was too effeminate.

    He's also fixed the fan-concept that Scareglow was Skeletor and made Orko competent instead of a goof.

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  20. #170
    Heroic Warrior hauke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    Dr. Who is considered a kid's show across the pond? The British are pretty hardcore... I see Wolfsfang in a whole new light now.
    Straight from the current showrunner: http://io9.com/5028464/exclusive-int...-steven-moffat

    Quote Originally Posted by He-Dad View Post
    Dr. Who is not considered a kids show in America. Guess we're not as progressive here. In Europe I've seen full nudity on billboards before....never here. Mattel is still an American company. What's fine over the pond is not always considered fine here.
    I acknowledge that different countries have different cultural sensibilities. Nothing wrong with that. Just stating that all those references do not seem to bother the UK children. As for the US I think there was a Marvel Legends Northstar action figure released a couple of years ago. That character is openly portrayed as gay as well. So there are precedences for gay toys in the US as well.
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  21. #171
    Heroic Warrior enoch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaGearMax View Post
    Dr. Who is considered a kid's show across the pond? The British are pretty hardcore... I see Wolfsfang in a whole new light now.



    I think Toyguru "fixes" things using the bios.

    Mods, warn me if I'm pushing your boundaries as I mean no harm: While selling Bow, TG made it absolutely clear down to the Toyfare advertisements that the character was straight and not gay (I guess a man hanging out with a whole bunch of females MUST be gay, right?) as some fans have rumored for years. Mattel even gave fans the ability to change his heart to a dot, if they thought that the heart was too effeminate.

    He's also fixed the fan-concept that Scareglow was Skeletor and made Orko competent instead of a goof.
    Yes I do too. But none of the are really filmation related. And I think the bow reference was to simply explain the heart he had on his armor.

  22. #172
    CRITAcal for MOTUC 2015!! Barezz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Dad View Post
    Dr. Who is not considered a kids show in America. Guess we're not as progressive here. In Europe I've seen full nudity on billboards before....never here. Mattel is still an American company. What's fine over the pond is not always considered fine here.
    It's not like Dr Who is part of a Saturday morning lineup on the BBC or anything. It is not specifically targeted towards children like say Teletubbies. But it is acknowledged as being a show popular with children. And while there isn't gratuitous sex or anything like that they don't pretend that babies come from storks or tiptoe around sexuality. They don't beat you over the head with anything either, it is just presented as a natural thing. I love it.

    I think of it like this, no one thinks of the Star Wars movies as kids movies, but they are HUGELY popular with kids and there is a ton of marketing to that effect. There's some pretty dark things in Star Wars like massive death (whole planets go boom, Anakin kills all of the Hogwarts kids... err I mean Younglings) people get arms/limbs cutoff, Luke fights his father, and Jabba captures Leia, throws her in a skimpy bikini and chains her to his throne.

    Yet somehow... the world has not ended

    I also never thought of Bow's heart being on him (in the show or vintage toy) as a symbol of his sexuality one way or the other. In the toy it was his "action feature" you could make it "beat", and I always assumed that the heart in the cartoon appeared because of toy related concept art or something.

    Of course I also thought that Bow had a thing for Glimmer, so what do I know?
    Last edited by Barezz; October 9, 2012 at 03:25pm.
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  23. #173
    I Love Filmation Variants TUC138's Avatar
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    wOw !!! Guys........ Lets stay "On Topic" shall we ???
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  24. #174
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  25. #175
    CRITAcal for MOTUC 2015!! Barezz's Avatar
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    What were we talking about again?

    Awww now I want a Spinnerella figure again.
    It is spelled "Crita", not "Critta". Misspell her name and Crita will knock the "T" out of you!

    Also...get her into the line!

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