Still on the fence? Message from Toy Guru

[Clawful Ofit]

A guarantee won't happen. Even if EVERYONE involved wanted one, there are just too many variables. Because where do you draw the line if they were pulled?

Could you cancel if they were moved to another project, but not if they were fired? Or what if they quit? Too many things could happen and legal would spend weeks working it out, & still could miss a loophole.

Now I truly am sorry that the Hoverboard situation happened. And if a guarantee is the only thing holding people off, then I hope you get one. I just think it's a lost cause/losing battle. Legal & management don't want the stress.

Mainly I just want us all to get a killer castle & enjoy it. It sucks things have happened in the line to have people so against Mattel/DR (understably & occasionally rightfully so). Hope it all works out for everyone.

[Micro-Man]

I think Mattel's legal team won't allow Toyguru to make such a statement because ultimately, Bowspearer, you're right; Mattel can pull the Four Horsemen from MOTUC at any time. Sure, it would likely kill the line but legally it wouldn't be a breach of any contract with us. Unless there are specific MOTUC clauses within their contract with the 4H, Mattel has the right to allocate its resources in the manner that they see fit. Technically, the risk of losing the 4H's involvement with MOTUC has always been there.

The only reason that I don't sweat it is because the 4H have remained on-board since the beginning (2008?) without any indication that they've ever been on the chopping block. They've become the foundation, heart, and soul of MOTUC and Mattel seems to at least acknowledge that they are vital to this niche line's profitability. The BttF license, on the other hand, is a new one for Mattel, without a signature or tenured design team, and probably a lower priority to them than MOTUC. Chances are, the Hoverboard will be the only BttF item they make this year. (I don't follow this brand, so I don't know if they've made other plans with it) If it fails, I'd guess it's just a quick business loss for them and they'll move on...MOTU means a little more to them than that. (I hope, heheh!)

I still stand by my prediction that of all the things to worry about, the Horsemen's continued involvement on the Castle Grayskull project is one of the safest bets. I'd say that "Blastic" is a bigger threat if it continues to show up in 2013 figures. Everything is subject to change but at the end of the day, a 6"-scale MOTUC Castle Grayskull will be the final product if the pre-orders go through and that is worth it to me!

[chuc98]

Two things. First up inside sources (check out the hoverboard thread on therpf if you want to see them for yourself) have revealed that early on in design process, the design teams were switched and the design team working on it was reassigned to more profitable (retail) lines.

Secondly though, when I asked Toyguru for a guarantee that the same thing wouldn't happen here with Castle Grayskull, all I got was spin and no direct answer (check the November questions thread for a copy of it). If they're in this for the whole of the design stage, then surely such a guarantee should have been very easy to give. The fact that it wasn't suggests that at the very least, he's not confident he could make it. In short, it's a legitimate concern with significant basis.

But you're trying to translate what happened with the hoverboard and say that the same thing's going to happen with Castle Grayskull with zero proof. Okay, so Toyguru didn't answer your question. And? That's proves nothing. Grasping at straws trying to prove you're right about a situation that hasn't even matured yet is doing no one any good.

Yes, there have been problems. Yes things could have been handled differently…but the level of interaction between TG and the fans is phenomenal compared to what we got back in the days of the 200X line…I was here for that. I know. I'm sure YOU DO want Castle Grayskull to be successful and YOU DO want the Four Horsemen to design and sculpt it. If that's the case, let's just be positive. Let things play out as they may and enjoy the ride.

[hadley]

I mentioned this in another thread, but after actively trying to find bad reviews of the hoverboard, I can only find that one link to therpf.com that bowspearer refers to. I REALLY don't think that a thread on a forum of prop builders talking about pictures of something that isn't even out is enough to gauge opinions on.

I'm not trying to disrespect bowspearer, but I think it's clear that he's overreacting and doing himself a disservice by spreading doubt where it's not deserved. The color of the velcro on the hoverboard doesn't affect Grayskull. The Horsemen being pulled off Ghostbusters because they're not selling doesn't effect Grayskull. The Wind Raider Assembly Technicians in the Olde Hong Kong Shoppe of Sweat and Toil forgetting to plug the guns in before slapping the thing in the box doesn't affect Grayskull.

It could go horribly wrong. A meteor could fall from the sky and land directly on Mattel HQ and blow the entire company off the face of the earth. Call me a daredevil, but I'm gonna roll the dice on Grayskull being as incredible as my 7-year-old self remembers it being.

[bowspearer]

No offense, but this general attitude seems to contribute to why Mattel Legal has to be so strict about everything and why customer and company can't enjoy a more laid-back, transparent discourse.

The thing is though that the reason why some of us have this attitude is Mattel's stuff-ups with the Hoverboard and QC/production issues MOTUC as well.

The kinds of "guarantees" you're demanding are impossible to satisfy. The 4H are only the sculptors/initial designers. For better or worse, there's a chain of custody (so to speak) that Mattel has to use. We can argue about the pros and cons of this process, but it's already in place and can't be any different for Grayksull, Hoverboards, or Barbies.

Except it's not going to be as linear as that. You're bound to get issues in the engineering phase which then require input from design to allow engineering to proceed, and possibly issues at the beginning of production which may require input from engineering and in turn, design. In theory their role should end when it goes to the engineering phase, but in practice, design would need to be available for the duration of it. A guarantee which concerns their normal role in the production process wont change shouldn't be impossible to give if Mattel is committed to having the Four Horsemen doing this. After, as far as the Horsemen are concerned, all only an "act of God" would have the Horsemen no longer doing this and even then, I kind of get the feeling it's a "Chuck Norris" type situation.

So since you're getting all "legal jargon" on it, what you're asking for can never be satisfied. How exactly would Scott be able to word something for us to not be able to claim that the 4H turned over CG to Mattel Design prematurely? And what evidence would we ever have that they did or not?

Simple, Scott could word it that he could guarantee that the Horsemen would handle 100% of the design process and be "on call" with design issues from that point on should they arise. Also bear in mind that the reason the design team issues came out is because Mattel employees became so unhappy about what happened that it became an open secret.

The 4H simply aren't allowed to handle 100% of the creation of Grayskull in-house without outside influence from Mattel. No matter how "finished" CG might be when it leaves the 4H Studios, it's Mattel's property, and theirs to do with as they see fit. Sometimes it results in unfortunate accidents (Prince Adam's disappearing sword holster) and sometimes it's misguided design choices (Stinkor's arms) but it HAS to pass through Mattel Design.

Again though that's Mattel call. Considering the track record and the size of it; Mattel should be completely bypassing their own design teams on this one and having their engineers solely working with the 4H as far as design goes. You don't field your 3rd grade team when you're playing a grand final. The fact is that being such a high ticket item, Mattel shouldn't let their in house designers touch this with a 10 foot barge pole or if they have to, it should only be their absolute best designers (the ones they pulled from the Hoverboard).

Sounds like you want to be able to back out of a pre-order for any reason you feel like, and it just doesn't work like that.

No I want a way to back out of the preorder if something goes disastrously wrong, which could really only happen for the most part of the Horsemen were pulled from it prematurely.

Look, there's just no way the 4H get pulled off Grayskull.
Mattel (at least Scott) should know the 4H are pretty much the only reason why anyone bought and still buys MOTUC.

You said it yourself. The only one we can say with absolute certainty understands the significance of the Horsemen's work, is Scott. That leaves several wild cards in terms of his superiors who could make a very foolish decision and pull the 4H midway through the design process. A guarantee would help in stopping them form making the line commit suicide by pulling what people think is the impossible.

A guarantee won't happen. Even if EVERYONE involved wanted one, there are just too many variables. Because where do you draw the line if they were pulled?

The logical thing would be to look at the standard design process as a yardstick.

Could you cancel if they were moved to another project, but not if they were fired?

In both those situations they've been removed from design though so it's Mattel "cheaping out" of the design process being done to the nth.

Or what if they quit?

In this case, it wouldn't be Mattel's fault so it would be pretty screwy to hold it against them.

Mainly I just want us all to get a killer castle & enjoy it. It sucks things have happened in the line to have people so against Mattel/DR (understably & occasionally rightfully so). Hope it all works out for everyone.

That's the oxymoron of all this. If it wasn't for what I'd seen happen with the Hoverboard, it would have been preordered from day 1 because of the potential for this too be 10 shades of awesome. However the problem is that because of both Mattel and Digital River, it's just one hell of a risk where things have the potential to go wrong - to the point where the pain has the potential to completely outweigh the gain.

But you're trying to translate what happened with the hoverboard and say that the same thing's going to happen with Castle Grayskull with zero proof. Okay, so Toyguru didn't answer your question. And? That's proves nothing. Grasping at straws trying to prove you're right about a situation that hasn't even matured yet is doing no one any good.

No I'm not trying to do that. If it was just going off what had come out over at therpf.com, then I'd agree that I was being premature. The problem is that when I asked Toyguru for reassurances that the same thing wouldn't happen here, he dodged the question completely. I'd call that pretty reasonable grounds to panic about a possible repeat of things with Castle Grayskull.

Yes, there have been problems. Yes things could have been handled differently…but the level of interaction between TG and the fans is phenomenal compared to what we got back in the days of the 200X line…I was here for that. I know. I'm sure YOU DO want Castle Grayskull to be successful and YOU DO want the Four Horsemen to design and sculpt it. If that's the case, let's just be positive. Let things play out as they may and enjoy the ride.

I'll be positive about it when there's concrete proof that it's not just Toyguru, but everyone senior to him in Mattel, who are both excited about a Grayskull and understand how crucial the Four Horsemen are to its execution (and therefore that it's smart business sense to not do something as suicidal to the project as to pull them prematuerely).

I mentioned this in another thread, but after actively trying to find bad reviews of the hoverboard, I can only find that one link to therpf.com that bowspearer refers to. I REALLY don't think that a thread on a forum of prop builders talking about pictures of something that isn't even out is enough to gauge opinions on.

You do realise that that's as fallacious a statement as stating something to the effect that the .org is a terrible place to gauge info about Master of the Universe right? Furthermore these were photos that members themselves took after seeing the final version at NYCC.

I'm not trying to disrespect bowspearer, but I think it's clear that he's overreacting and doing himself a disservice by spreading doubt where it's not deserved. The color of the velcro on the hoverboard doesn't affect Grayskull. The Horsemen being pulled off Ghostbusters because they're not selling doesn't effect Grayskull. The Wind Raider Assembly Technicians in the Olde Hong Kong Shoppe of Sweat and Toil forgetting to plug the guns in before slapping the thing in the box doesn't affect Grayskull.

Except that it all comes down to meeting the brief. The brief for the Hoverboard was to produce a 100% movie accurate prop replica. Mattel pulled the design team capable of showing the attention to detail needed to pull that off and replaced it with an inferior team with massive egos. It was such a disaster that not only were Mattel employees less than impressed, but it seems that they started talking as well.

I'm sure everyone here would agree that the intricate sculpting of the Four Horsemen is the equivalent attention to detail with MOTUC that "100% movie accuracy" is with prop replicas. The problem is, what is to stop Mattel (specifically someone senior to Toyguru) from removing the 4H from Castle Grayskull and replacing them with a cheaper in house team where that attention goes out the window.

[Darkspecter]

The Four Horsemen have sculpted every MOTUC product from the opening 2008 line-up to the 2013 line-up. They even did the Wind Raider, the only vehicle. The Four Horsemen themselves begged us to buy Castle Grayskull so they could sculpt it. They're not going anywhere. Sculpting Grayskull is their dream and they will do an amazing job. The end.

http://www.fourhorsemen.biz/news/201...grayskull.html

We're pretty darned excited about the possibility of making this beast of a toy and we'll promise you right now that if we get to create Castle Grayskull for you, we're going to put every ounce of heart, soul and creativity into it that we can to try to make it worth every hard earned penny that you're going to be spending on it. We've already been going over the blueprints and planning our direction of attack so when (not if) Mattel gives us the green light we can dive right in. Now all we need is you. This time you truly DO have the power! Thanks in advance.

-FOUR HORSEMEN-

[Berserker79]

I agree with bowspearer, Mattel promised one thing with the Hoverboard and finally delivered another one. That's it what counts. And with all the production errors and questionable design choices since the beginning, I can fully understand why fans lost faith in Mattel, especially with 250$ items...

[He-Dog]

Bowspearer,

You asked your question to Toyguru. He read it and answered it insufficiently for you, but it's probably the only answer you're going to get. You've stated your exact stance on why you are hesitant to preorder CG every time you respond to someone (which is a lot of times).

Is it possible for you to move on now? Is it possible for everyone to stop responding to him so he can? I will.

[bowspearer]

The Four Horsemen have sculpted every MOTUC product from the opening 2008 line-up to the 2013 line-up. They even did the Wind Raider, the only vehicle. The Four Horsemen themselves begged us to buy Castle Grayskull so they could sculpt it. They're not going anywhere. Sculpting Grayskull is their dream and they will do an amazing job. The end.

Yet that doesn't address sections of Mattel upper management's attitude to the project. Remember with the Hoverboard, what was going on with it was unpopular with many Mattel employees, yet they didn't have the clout to intervene. The concern is the same thing happening here with Castle Grayskull. Upper Management is the wild card here and a serious one at that.

Bowspearer,

You asked your question to Toyguru. He read it and answered it insufficiently for you, but it's probably the only answer you're going to get.

Not necessarily. This is where I'm also conscious of something that happened with the Hoverboard. Initially Mattel was also saying that they weren't offering cancellations on the Hoverboard and that looked like it was probably going to be the only answer people got. They were even censoring posts and banning people who voiced displeasure over it.

However what wound up happening was that there was enough noise that they were forced to change their stance.

The old saying is that for every 1 person who says something 10/100/1000 are thinking it (with the internet, the later is a pretty reasonable estimate). Heck with the Hoverboard, there would have only been 20 vocal people on the forums at the most, yet it was enough for them to change their tune.

My theory is that if there's enough noise and Mattel has no intention of pulling the 4H from it, then it's quite possible that they'll make a statement confirming that.

[chuc98]

The Four Horsemen have sculpted every MOTUC product from the opening 2008 line-up to the 2013 line-up. They even did the Wind Raider, the only vehicle. The Four Horsemen themselves begged us to buy Castle Grayskull so they could sculpt it. They're not going anywhere. Sculpting Grayskull is their dream and they will do an amazing job. The end.

http://www.fourhorsemen.biz/news/201...grayskull.html

Yeah I think that pretty much says it all.

[NorthCoast]

The old saying is that for every 1 person who says something 10/100/1000 are thinking it (with the internet, the later is a pretty reasonable estimate).

Ok then: "bowspearer, please stop posting about the Hoverboard on he-man.org." I bet it's closer to 1000 thinking it.

[RockinHard]

Ok then: "bowspearer, please stop posting about the Hoverboard on he-man.org." I bet it's closer to 1000 thinking it.

Oh, c'mon. I come to He-Man.org to read about the Hoverboard. Though he has a point to a degree, he's made it, and I (and others, obviously) believe it's time to move on.

[Replikor]

I must agree... both sides have each had there turns making there arguments and all valid points have been made directly clear by both sides... I personally think that its time to move this conversation along.

Plus we have the preorder to focus on now as we are down to 1 day... ITs time to decide FOR YOURSELVES...

Do I want ANY kind of MOTUC Grayskull that I can get?

-OR-

Do I feel its not worth the risk?

...its time to decide.
Here is how long you have to think on the matter...

[miscus555]

how many total units are needed for them to make it. TG should have told us that. would have help promoting as the finish line approaches

[guardianmonkey]

I agree with bowspearer, Mattel promised one thing with the Hoverboard and finally delivered another one. That's it what counts. And with all the production errors and questionable design choices since the beginning, I can fully understand why fans lost faith in Mattel, especially with 250$ items...

it seems like some are getting caught up with minutiae/bickering and losing this message.

i have spent an awful lot of time and money on this toyline, based nearly all on my childhood nostalgia. it is difficult to imagine making that kind of investment financially and emotionally and not getting grayskull. but the reality is that there have been some bizarre mess ups and decisions in this line and others from Mattel.

i want to get this damn thing but it doesn't help when honest trepidation with this expensive leap of faith is discounted.

[MC Modulok]

Ok then: "bowspearer, please stop posting about the Hoverboard on he-man.org." I bet it's closer to 1000 thinking it.

I know I'm one of the 1000.

[Stygian360]

Oh, c'mon. I come to He-Man.org to read about the Hoverboard. Though he has a point to a degree, he's made it, and I (and others, obviously) believe it's time to move on.

Agreed... 1000x agreed. Let's focus on saving the Grayskull set and not compare apples to oranges. With some measure of respect to those who continually rail against the Hoverboard, that toy isn't at stake nor is it the issue of the moment. Energy wasted.

[bowspearer]

Agreed... 1000x agreed. Let's focus on saving the Grayskull set and not compare apples to oranges. With some measure of respect to those who continually rail against the Hoverboard, that toy isn't at stake nor is it the issue of the moment. Energy wasted.

Except that you've missed the key problem here. If some high up Mattel executive can pull a design team off one high ticket item, purely in the interests of cutting corners for the sake of profit, then what's to stop them from doing it here. Now I agree that considering the fact that the Four Horsemen are the key reason for the success of the MOTUC line, pulling the 4H off Castle Grayskull is a pretty unimaginable scenario. At the same time though, people would have never imagined that Mattel would flagrantly attempt to engage in defrauding their customers either (which is what has happened with the Hoverboard), yet that's exactly what has happened.....

[iron_pride]

There is still time. Fence sitters, make the jump!!!

[Sallah]

I agree with bowspearer, Mattel promised one thing with the Hoverboard and finally delivered another one. That's it what counts. And with all the production errors and questionable design choices since the beginning, I can fully understand why fans lost faith in Mattel, especially with 250$ items...

And I, in turn, agree with you. Good, right-to-the-point post.

Sallah

[kup]

There is still time. Fence sitters, make the jump!!!

To the other side and walk away as it's no longer worth watching

[Crusader]

There is still time. Fence sitters, make the jump!!!

I'm trying, but Matty won't take my money

[iron_pride]

To the other side and walk away as it's no longer worth watching

Oh come on...why do you say it's no longer worth watching?

[Tallstar]

I'm trying, but Matty won't take my money

Maybe all the last minute people crashed the system.

The good news is that we may not have to hit the 100% mark exactly. If you listen to the Council of the First Ones podcast, Scott says that he think it will still go through if we're close to the mark. They will just have the 4H start sculpting it (to hopefully have ready in time for New York Toy Fair) and keep the preorder open until January if this is the case.

[Crusader]

Maybe all the last minute people crashed the system.

I have no idea, I re-entered the credit information and it's still giving the error. Now I'm worried for thursday.