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Thread: Fisto - Re-released ?

  1. #76
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    Kowl, what you simply refuse to understand is that the production numbers are limited because of choices made simply out of marketing manipulation.

    They are not made from rare metals. They are not made from rare chemicals. They are not made from extinct animals.

    Jem is a perfect example - only 1,000 people will ever own the new Classic Jem. Why? Because the company producing them wishes to be seen as rare and exclusive.

    The only reason Mattel shorted figure runs this year was to drive sub sales next year. To manipulate people. There is no shortage of plastic or paint.

    You start at the premise that these quotas are somehow mandatory. They are not. They are calculated business decisions - unfortunately, not based on supply and demand, but at creating artificial shortages that are meant to trigger emotional responses to suit the way they want us to buy things. They are to manipulate you - and as you prove, for certain folks they do that job very very well.

  2. #77
    Heroic Warrior Captain Atkin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kowl View Post
    I don't understand why some people have such an issue with COLLECTING. If you miss the initial run, you have to go to the secondary market. That is how collecting works and part of what makes it fun.
    Alright... taking this back to the FISTO discussion for a moment. In 2012, I paid for two subscriptions, with the reasonable expectation that I would recieve all of the figures in those paid subscriptions. For reasons that were never been made clear to me by Digital River (and to a number of other unlucky subscription holders expecting Fisto,) I never recieved the figure that I was initally promised. Some people might enjoy the "fun" of collecting by searching for figures online, but I didn't pay for two subscriptions just to have to go search the secondary market for Fisto at jacked up prices. Now, the question for me any many other people remains: what happened with Fisto? Where there not enough of the figure made to honour the subscriptions? Did Digital River screw up the initial orders? In any case, a lot of subcription holders did not receive the figure, and I think for that reason alone, they should be looking at doing a second run of Fisto. Especially if they want those loyal subcribers to continue buying into Club Eternia.
    Last edited by Captain Atkin; December 27, 2012 at 04:10pm.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Atkin View Post
    Alright... taking this back to the FISTO discussion for a moment. In 2012, I paid for two subscriptions, with the reasonable expectation that I would recieve all of the figures in those paid subscriptions. For reasons that were never been made clear to me by Digital River (and to a number of other unlucky subscription holders expecting Fisto,) I never recieved the figure that I was initally promised. Some people might enjoy the "fun" of collecting by searching for figures online, but I didn't pay for two subscriptions just to have to go search the secondary market for Fisto at jacked up prices. Now, the question for me any many other people remains: what happened with Fisto? Where there not enough of the figure made to honour the subscriptions? Did Digital River screw up the initial orders? In any case, a lot of subcription holders did not receive the figure, and I think for that reason alone, they should be looking at doing a second run of Fisto. Especially if they want those loyal subcribers to continue buying into Club Eternia.
    This,in my opinion is the only argument for a Fisto reissue.

    As a subscriber,you were promised all figures in the sub. This and this alone is why Fisto should be looked at in the future,along with a voucher for those subscribers that did not receive him.

    Is there a count anywhere of how many,at least on the org,that did not receive Fisto even though they were subscribers?
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by horseman1981 View Post
    This,in my opinion is the only argument for a Fisto reissue.

    As a subscriber,you were promised all figures in the sub. This and this alone is why Fisto should be looked at in the future,along with a voucher for those subscribers that did not receive him.

    Is there a count anywhere of how many,at least on the org,that did not receive Fisto even though they were subscribers?
    I agree with both of you, because I was one of the sub holders that had to hunt for a Fisto through eBay. Lucky for me I got one for a decent price, but I have some friends that are still looking for him. Anyway, we never subscribed for this, the intention was to guarantee we would get our figures, and that was the subscription promise. Fisto is one of the best MOTUC figures for me AND my favorite

    On the other hand i agree with EthernianChronicles, about the marketing manipulation. I just hope we don't get more of this bull-stuff this next year. I just don't trust Matty/DR anymore
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  5. #80
    Heroic Warrior Kowl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Atkin View Post
    Alright... taking this back to the FISTO discussion for a moment. In 2012, I paid for two subscriptions, with the reasonable expectation that I would recieve all of the figures in those paid subscriptions. For reasons that were never been made clear to me by Digital River (and to a number of other unlucky subscription holders expecting Fisto,) I never recieved the figure that I was initally promised. Some people might enjoy the "fun" of collecting by searching for figures online, but I didn't pay for two subscriptions just to have to go search the secondary market for Fisto at jacked up prices. Now, the question for me any many other people remains: what happened with Fisto? Where there not enough of the figure made to honour the subscriptions? Did Digital River screw up the initial orders? In any case, a lot of subcription holders did not receive the figure, and I think for that reason alone, they should be looking at doing a second run of Fisto. Especially if they want those loyal subcribers to continue buying into Club Eternia.
    Yes Captain! You are 100% correct about the Fisto situation being a bad one. It doesn't make any sense why there weren't enough Fistos to cover the subscriptions and CS stock. I don't know what their solution could be though. To go back into production, they would have to hit a minimum quota for a certain price. I doubt they could move another couple thousand Fistos. It does suck though for those that subscribed and didn't get theirs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by EtherianChronicles View Post
    Kowl, what you simply refuse to understand is that the production numbers are limited because of choices made simply out of marketing manipulation.

    They are not made from rare metals. They are not made from rare chemicals. They are not made from extinct animals.

    Jem is a perfect example - only 1,000 people will ever own the new Classic Jem. Why? Because the company producing them wishes to be seen as rare and exclusive.

    The only reason Mattel shorted figure runs this year was to drive sub sales next year. To manipulate people. There is no shortage of plastic or paint.

    You start at the premise that these quotas are somehow mandatory. They are not. They are calculated business decisions - unfortunately, not based on supply and demand, but at creating artificial shortages that are meant to trigger emotional responses to suit the way they want us to buy things. They are to manipulate you - and as you prove, for certain folks they do that job very very well.
    There is a production quota. The minimum amount of pieces that have to be produced to hit a certain production price and sales goal. That is what the subscription gauges. Mattel has stated that in 2013 they are only going to produce enough to hit the subscription quota and CS stock, hence extremely limited day of sales. I think 2013 will bring us back to 2010 day of sell out times (10-20 minutes for those who werent around). Mattel has made it very clear: "Buy a subscription or miss out". It is a clear marketing ploy. No one can deny that! Now all you can do is vote with your wallet.

    You are completely correct about the marketing "manipulation" that has occured in this line. In early 2010, we were seeing ridiculous sell out times. In response, Scalp-Or came out in droves and bought up late 2009 and 2010 subscriptions. Then in mid to late 2010, the figures lasted longer on the website and Scalp-Or couldn't make much of a profit any more. This is what Scott didn't account for and why there was so much extra stock of all the mid 2010 to mid 2011 figures. Check out MOTUClassics.Com and you can see the original sell out times for figures. Since 2010 didn't work out so hot for Scalp-Or, they bought less 2011 subscriptions. Then 2011 subscriptions didn't resell so hot either and so on, which brings us to the super low 2013 subscription sells. Basically, the reseller market came when they saw limited value and left when Mattel overproduced figures.

    There is also nothing wrong with MOTUC being a limited run of figures, even though Mattel won't announce their quantities for "legal reasons." The Fisto situation was a bad one for subscribers, but I doubt Mattel will go back into production.
    Last edited by Kowl; December 27, 2012 at 05:22pm.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by EtherianChronicles View Post
    Kowl, what you simply refuse to understand is that the production numbers are limited because of choices made simply out of marketing manipulation.

    They are not made from rare metals. They are not made from rare chemicals. They are not made from extinct animals.

    Jem is a perfect example - only 1,000 people will ever own the new Classic Jem. Why? Because the company producing them wishes to be seen as rare and exclusive.

    The only reason Mattel shorted figure runs this year was to drive sub sales next year. To manipulate people. There is no shortage of plastic or paint.

    You start at the premise that these quotas are somehow mandatory. They are not. They are calculated business decisions - unfortunately, not based on supply and demand, but at creating artificial shortages that are meant to trigger emotional responses to suit the way they want us to buy things. They are to manipulate you - and as you prove, for certain folks they do that job very very well.
    Have you seen the prices of those Jem dolls? Damn.... Makes Granamyr feel like a bargain.

    But that's what happens when they have low low runs like that, and from the sold out PO's I've seen on the sites that carry them....a lot of people want them.

    Also for you manipulation topic....

    How else do you explain creating an artificial demand for Teela out in the third party world, when Mattel had stock of her left, same as back in Aug 2011....MAA was $80+ on Ebay....for months or more like a year MAA was a damn fortune....turns out, Mattel had tons of him left, enough to offer him for sale at last years BF and not sell out, a monthly sale during 2012, and for BF 2012....how is that for more proof Mattel drives demand for figures, they knew they had plenty of stock of? Same for Tri-Klops, over a year ago before BF, he was $60 on Ebay....Mattel....tons of stock....

    Mattel knew they had this stock, so much so they have had to push to remove it all from DR's warehouse....yet for months to years they sat on it instead of offering it all along....but in a way it worked to my advantage last BF securing Teela, MAA & Tri-Klops at dirt cheap prices....so I am actually conflicted over it....I benefited from it, yet those selling MAA for $80 - $100 over a year ago, sucked up all that dough for figures Mattel was far from out of stock on.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellvertz View Post
    On the other hand i agree with EthernianChronicles, about the marketing manipulation. I just hope we don't get more of this bull-stuff this next year. I just don't trust Matty/DR anymore
    This is beautiful. Mattel cannot sell re-issues that they have labelled "sold out" multiple times. They are holding stock that they have only tried to sell for a few weeks total. It's a joke on the collectors, a trick on anyone who has purchased figures on the aftermarket.

    The Fisto situation is just a really specific burn on some random collectors. Making the subscription feel more like a lottery than ever before. Adding an aggressive returns policy to the mistake really took the wind out of some people's sails. Classic.

  8. #83
    Heroic Warrior Lich Leech's Avatar
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    What I don't get is why they seem to consider figures a failure if they don't sell out in a matter of hours. What a strange business model.
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  9. #84
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    I am so glad some people do get all this. Thanks guys for restoring some of my faith in our community.

    All this in-fighting wouldn't happen, and Mattel would make more money, if they just met the demand of figures instead of playing all these games.

    I tell you, Ram Man is going to be Sorceress 2.0. He will be $100 this time next year. Anyone that does it recall this used as scare tactics simply has to peruse Mattel statements each and every sub time.

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that a figure like Chief Carniverous would sell less than Sorceress, but since they got left with extras of him "reissues don't sell". And, as Kowl pointed it earlier, the whole reissues thing was a scam to begin with. Only a few characters actually whet back into production. Most of the time they just stored some way with a tiny packaging variation to haul out later and call a "reissue" to manipulate MOC collectors into thinking they needed both - just getting the same figure manufactured at the same time they slipped a tiny little "burst" on.

    There is no reason for all these smoke and mirrors, or all this bad blood - but this, along with the entire way the subscriptions model was set up to begin with, and all the quality/DR issues/etc. are why for so many if us collect this line begrudgingly, because it is so hard to support Mattel with these terrible business practices.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by EtherianChronicles View Post

    I tell you, Ram Man is going to be Sorceress 2.0. He will be $100 this time next year. Anyone that does it recall this used as scare tactics simply has to peruse Mattel statements each and every sub time.

    It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that a figure like Chief Carniverous would sell less than Sorceress, but since they got left with extras of him "reissues don't sell". And, as Kowl pointed it earlier, the whole reissues thing was a scam to begin with. Only a few characters actually whet back into production. Most of the time they just stored some way with a tiny packaging variation to haul out later and call a "reissue" to manipulate MOC collectors into thinking they needed both - just getting the same figure manufactured at the same time they slipped a tiny little "burst" on.

    There is no reason for all these smoke and mirrors, or all this bad blood - but this, along with the entire way the subscriptions model was set up to begin with, and all the quality/DR issues/etc. are why for so many if us collect this line begrudgingly, because it is so hard to support Mattel with these terrible business practices.
    I have no sub next year, going to try day of... But will pay $100 if I have to. It's Ram-Man!

    The smoke and mirrors worked well in the beginning, so much excitement in the early days. Now it just seems like overkill, building resentment in the customer/ fan base and bitterness on the companies side. If a trickster only has one trick, it gets old quickly.

  11. #86
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    Maybe they should release a Fisto-Teela 2 pack...

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Dude View Post
    Maybe they should release a Fisto-Teela 2 pack...
    Why? Wouldn't the subscribers that missed out on Fisto already have Teela? It's funny that when they were talking about re-issues been made by just "turning the machines back on" it was all so simple.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by d*r*j* View Post
    Why? Wouldn't the subscribers that missed out on Fisto already have Teela? It's funny that when they were talking about re-issues been made by just "turning the machines back on" it was all so simple.
    Yeah, and since the most cost-intensive part of the process, the molds, are done - it seems almost comical to to think at the $27 price point it wouldn't be worth it to make a batch of figures that were profitable for them with higher expense (having to create the mold) sold at a lower price point ($20).

    Basically, if it was profitable to design the figure, do the R & D, make the molds at the $20 price point, certainly a batch of figures that just need the plastic dumped into the mold and assembly can be profitable at the $27 price point even if not making as much quantity.

    And to be honest, even though Scott says that packaging is a minor part of the cost - I think people would pony up the money to preorder some figures at, say, $30 like Teela, Fisto, etc. in true reissues without standard packaging and they still would sell. Of course, packaging them would be a good idea to attract MOC collectors, but I still think they would sell well.

    The arguments that this is like asking for 30-year old figures to be produced again are absurd - this is a currently in production line, it's not completely out of left field especially when reissues are already part of the MOTUC vernacular (even if its mostly been "fake" reissues previously). And now is the time to ask for them, while the machines are still warm.

    I cannot imagine why people would want to deny this to collectors - this whole "nothing more to see here" stuff - "there are no more people to discover MOTUC out there" and "this is how collecting is - tough" make me think they don't wish others to have them to increase the dollar value of what they have. I can appreciate that someone would argue in self-interest - the heart of this line are the great 4H designs (even when Mattel design mucks them up) and I want as many fans out there as possible to be able to enjoy them like I have. Besides the club exclusives (which should remain so, for a myriad of reasons, I agree) nothing else should be out of play so everyone can enjoy as full a MOTUC collection they wish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EtherianChronicles View Post
    Yeah, and since the most cost-intensive part of the process, the molds, are done - it seems almost comical to to think at the $27 price point it wouldn't be worth it to make a batch of figures that were profitable for them with higher expense (having to create the mold) sold at a lower price point ($20).

    Basically, if it was profitable to design the figure, do the R & D, make the molds at the $20 price point, certainly a batch of figures that just need the plastic dumped into the mold and assembly can be profitable at the $27 price point even if not making as much quantity.

    And to be honest, even though Scott says that packaging is a minor part of the cost - I think people would pony up the money to preorder some figures at, say, $30 like Teela, Fisto, etc. in true reissues without standard packaging and they still would sell. Of course, packaging them would be a good idea to attract MOC collectors, but I still think they would sell well.

    The arguments that this is like asking for 30-year old figures to be produced again are absurd - this is a currently in production line, it's not completely out of left field especially when reissues are already part of the MOTUC vernacular (even if its mostly been "fake" reissues previously). And now is the time to ask for them, while the machines are still warm.

    I cannot imagine why people would want to deny this to collectors - this whole "nothing more to see here" stuff - "there are no more people to discover MOTUC out there" and "this is how collecting is - tough" make me think they don't wish others to have them to increase the dollar value of what they have. I can appreciate that someone would argue in self-interest - the heart of this line are the great 4H designs (even when Mattel design mucks them up) and I want as many fans out there as possible to be able to enjoy them like I have. Besides the club exclusives (which should remain so, for a myriad of reasons, I agree) nothing else should be out of play so everyone can enjoy as full a MOTUC collection they wish.
    agree 100%......Teela really should be an essential item anyway. And Fisto! we were forgiving on QC issues, we were forgiving on delayed figures, but the one thing us sub holders could count on despite QC issues and delays, is that you got a figure!!!! the one thing mattel could not afford to screw up n and they did!!!

  15. #90
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    You also have to factor in labor and factory time as costs. You also have to factor in shipping as a cost for Mattel to get them to the U.S. Is it still cost effective to make at most a couple thousand figures? I'm not so sure that would generate enough of a profit (if any) for the suits higher up to give the green light on reissues.
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  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kowl View Post
    If you miss the initial run, you have to go to the secondary market. That is how collecting works and part of what makes it fun.
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  17. #92
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    I just wanted to say that EtherianChronicles makes a lot of sense.

  18. #93
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    I asked this a million times (But it keeps getting ignored) didn't Scott say when this line started if the item would sell out they would bump up the next runs to make up the demand?

    It seems like they are cutting WAY back instead...

  19. #94
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    They originally said they'd keep uping production until figures lasted a few weeks. Then, they switched to the subscription model and wanted figures to last only a couple days tops.

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    I'm not a subscriber, but I really think that Fisto needs a small run reissue for the subbers that didn't get him. It's kind of unfair that I, as a cherry picker, got Fisto during DOS, while subscribers missed out. I mean, I'm lucky I got him and I'm not parting with him, 'cause I bought him fair and square, but it still sucks for subbers, and that is not correct at all.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    They originally said they'd keep uping production until figures lasted a few weeks. Then, they switched to the subscription model and wanted figures to last only a couple days tops.
    That's a stupid idea...If they sell more they make more money.....

    I don't get Mattel it seems like they don't want to make as much money as possible........

  22. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuc98 View Post
    You also have to factor in labor and factory time as costs. You also have to factor in shipping as a cost for Mattel to get them to the U.S. Is it still cost effective to make at most a couple thousand figures? I'm not so sure that would generate enough of a profit (if any) for the suits higher up to give the green light on reissues.
    Yes, yes, but again missing the point. We could calculate how much lunch money the guy who drives the truck needs, but we are still comparing the big picture to the big picture.

    Mattel has already done the most expensive part of getting these figures to us - the molds and design work. They produced and delivered these figures at a $20 price point.

    Now, taking that most expensive part of the process out of the equation, doesn't it seem t reason that if they take out the most expensive part, and then produce and sell them at the new $27 price point (or again, even $30), they wouldn't have to do an entire full 7500 run or what have you?

    They can do preorders for smaller runs - they have already attempted it, just it with MOTUC. They simply do not want to, because they want you to fear not getting the one you want in the future and making you feel forced into a sub, and other parts of the "artificial scarcity" theater.

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by EtherianChronicles View Post
    Yes, yes, but again missing the point.
    You can accuse people of missing your points as long and often as you want.

    The one point you are not getting is:

    Re-Releases are not going to happen.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by EtherianChronicles View Post
    Yes, yes, but again missing the point.
    You can accuse people of missing your points as long and often as you want.

    The one point you are not getting is:

    Re-Releases are not going to happen.
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  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kowl View Post
    If you miss the initial run, you have to go to the secondary market. That is how collecting works and part of what makes it fun.
    In my 6 years of full time collecting....I have never found this to be fun....in any way, shape or form....

    You do understand that using Transformers Classics as an example if you were to want the 2006 Classics, the minimum I have seen any of them is like $30 for a deluxe, and as high as $200 for the then $20 Ultra Magnus & Skywarp set....

    Some of these "missed initial runs" of MOTUC are twice what they were retail, as soon as they sold out on Matty, only places like BBTS are a fair shot, but they are still $15 over Matty prices....so how do you consider that fun. And have you ever tried to fight Hot Wheel collectors that are greedy pigs and scalpers just to get a single harder to find car for your collection? I won't be paying $10 plus shipping for a $.99 Hot Wheel that just hit the shelves....I don't care how exclusive or hard to find it may be....Just like I never planned to pay the $80 for MAA before last years BF sale, I needed him, but for $80....I would have learned to live without him. I had to buy all the Transformers RTS stuff online except Jazz and Tracks because ROTF, Generations and HFTD peg warmers kept them out of stores.

    So no fun playing catch up on anything but from the retail source (and in the case of Hot Wheels not even there, and that's even if the peg warmers in stores allow more waves to come), if you find if fun....more power man.

    And the thing about the Jem dolls isn't even a comparison to MOTUC, MOTUC is not a limited series per se, and MOTUC is not sold for $100 a figure, huge difference between a Collector's line and an exclusive line, MOTUC may be limited, but it's still not an overly exclusive line, at least you can buy a sub, Jem is only being produced in the numbers the manufacturer sets, not the customers.
    Last edited by shadowfall1976; December 28, 2012 at 12:47pm.
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  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by EtherianChronicles View Post
    Yes, yes, but again missing the point. We could calculate how much lunch money the guy who drives the truck needs, but we are still comparing the big picture to the big picture.
    I didn't "miss the point", you just keep ignoring that there are additional costs involved with producing a figure. You can't ignore labor, you can't ignore oil (which effects the price of goods and shipping and this is ALWAYS increasing). Just because the molds and design work is done doesn't mean that they can just produce a lower run. The factory most likely has minimum run requirements in order for it to even be profitable for them as well. There are more entities involved than just us and Mattel…and everyone wants a piece of the pie.
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