Do you think He-Man would have been as successful if he had stayed just a barbarian?

[Telkan2]

You say that like it's a bad thing

If you're the 'typical' straight male, perhaps not. But if you consider such imagery offensively exploitative and heterosexist, then, yeah, it's not such a good thing.

The dual identity is my main gripe with Filmation. Now thàt's something that has been done to death by just about every superhero around. And although his stache still gave him away, Don Diego at least tried by putting on a mask while Adam just got a tan. The 200X series made Adam a bit more acceptable, but I didn't care too much for that pesky teen either.

As far as I'm concerned the whole Adam persona is dragging the story down and I really hope that a new movie would ditch the character entirely, like the '87 movie did - and for the better, I might add. The story should be about He-Man, Eternia's greatest warrior ... not about a wimpy prince who can secretly turn himself into something he is not.

You're correct, the dual identity has been done to death as well--but, the main difference between that and typical barbarian fare (in my opinion) is that more readers are drawn towards it, and so the stories that rely on it frequently last longer (e.g., Superman, which has been with us for 75 years). I've never met a kid--either during my own time growing up, or in the years following which have been spent working in the childhood education field--who honestly felt like a He-Man or Superman in their daily lives; however, I think we have all fantasized about having secret powers, or being stronger than the bullies on the bus or what-have-you. That's why so many people relate to the dual identity trope, I believe--it enables the consumer to imagine something greater for him- or herself.

As one example, specifically related to MOTU, numerous non-heterosexual fans have explained in various threads over the years how they specifically related to the Prince Adam character because they simultaneously identified with the pressures of keeping a life-altering secret from those they loved, and they longed to "have the power" to overcome those who torment(ed) them. If the story had just been about a He-Man who was, for all intents and purposes, a hermit that ran around slaying demons, there's an entire section of the current fan base that would never has been as invested.

As for your comment about Adam being a "wimpy prince who can secretly turn himself into something he is not," I find that statement to be in the same vein as those who insist that the "She-Ra" cartoon series was "girly" and frivolous. That is to say, I consider it a false assumption. Just as the "She-Ra" series was far darker and more violent than the "He-Man" cartoon, Prince Adam was far from a wimp pretending to be something he wasn't. Just the opposite really: He-Man is who he is in actuality, whereas the Adam persona is a masque he is forced to wear--by the Sorceress--to protect his friends and loved ones. He doesn't want people to think he's lazy or inept, especially his father, and yet he has no other choice. How can that extra level of personal turmoil not make the character more interesting?

[Benedict Judas Hel]

Seriously, the Conan / Tarzan thing has been done to death, and the market for that type of story is anything but all-encompassing (especially when some unspoken mandate demands that the woman wear nothing more than teacups over Triple-D breasts).

You say that like it's a bad thing

If you're the 'typical' straight male, perhaps not. But if you consider such imagery offensively exploitative and heterosexist, then, yeah, it's not such a good thing.

Hmmm...Tarzan and Conan walked around fully clothed as well? I think both sexes were scantily clad in those properties. Even in the MOTU-verse most males are walking around basically shirtless and with furry underwear only. I think it was fairly even in those properties.

[VaultsofGrayskull]

The barbarian themes were more dramatic, more violent, more imaginative and more original than the cartoon ideas. The inspiration of mythology and legend was obvious, particularly in the seven Cohn minicomics. But 'better' doesn't always mean 'more successful', and we have to acknowledge the marketing genius of the cartoon, even if it wasn't very good. I would have preferred for the barbarian themes to have been explored further, but we'll never really know if He-Man could have lasted as long without the cartoon.

[Eternian Poet]

Of course he would have.

People - especially children - are not interested in brightly coloured novelties.

Consider all the colours, shapes & sizes, a loin-cloth can come in.

[Lich Leech]

Of course he would have.

People - especially children - are not interested in brightly coloured novelties.

Consider all the colours, shapes & sizes, a loin-cloth can come in.

The earliest depictions of characters still have the bright colors though. It was much more colorful than typical barbarian stuff from the start.

[Crusader]

But as you point out... we HAD Fire and Ice and Galatar and Thundarr and Blackstar on the airwaves...

We also had Toys of things like Blackstar and Warlord and other figures clogging the aisles...

It's hard to say YES... Barbarian he-man would have lasted... when All the OTHER barbarian things crashed and burned. Only ONE of them actually got a 30th anniversary celebrated

I beg to differ. Conan has been around for nearly 80 years and he's still going strong, Red Sonja is turning 40 and she's still around. Artists like Frank Frazetta and Boris Vallejo have had an extensive fan following, spanning multiple decades. I don't know if Slaine has made it across the pond yet, but here in Europe he has been quite successful.
True, they don't reach a mainstream audience like MOTU did back in the day, but I wouldn't exactly call that crashed and burned. Conan has had 3 movies since 1982 and will probably get a fourth one before He-Man gets a second one out, even though the reboot with Jason Momoa wasn't exactly a hit.

Even back then they recognized the need for a 'weaker' version to make him a more relatable character. Personally, I prefer Prince Adam hiding his powers over 'Naked He-man' any time

I'm on board with He-Man having weaknesses, like in the '87 movie. They didn't need a Prince Adam to make him vulnerable or give him a human side.

If you're the 'typical' straight male, perhaps not. But if you consider such imagery offensively exploitative and heterosexist, then, yeah, it's not such a good thing.

... I think it's fairly obvious that I don't

You're correct, the dual identity has been done to death as well--but, the main difference between that and typical barbarian fare (in my opinion) is that more readers are drawn towards it, and so the stories that rely on it frequently last longer (e.g., Superman, which has been with us for 75 years).

Conan predates Superman by four years. Superman may be more popular but he hasn't lasted longer.

I've never met a kid--either during my own time growing up, or in the years following which have been spent working in the childhood education field--who honestly felt like a He-Man or Superman in their daily lives; however, I think we have all fantasized about having secret powers, or being stronger than the bullies on the bus or what-have-you. That's why so many people relate to the dual identity trope, I believe--it enables the consumer to imagine something greater for him- or herself.

Dreaming about an empowered self doesn't necessarily entail an alternate persona and why do those powers always have to be secret ? If you fantasize about being stronger than your opponents why should you have to hide that strength? Yes, yes, to protect your loved ones, I know, but they get threatened anyway. As captain of the guard Teela is always in the line of fire and Skeletor actively tried to kill off Randor. So keeping his powers secret doesn't make that much of a difference after all and the whole masquerade - especially how it's handled by Filmation - seems superfluous and silly, at least to me.

And although the new DC comics put Adam in the spotlight, the secret is pretty much on the fritz anyway (unless the sorceress is going to do some mindwiping again at the end of issue 6).

As one example, specifically related to MOTU, numerous non-heterosexual fans have explained in various threads over the years how they specifically related to the Prince Adam character because they simultaneously identified with the pressures of keeping a life-altering secret from those they loved, and they longed to "have the power" to overcome those who torment(ed) them. If the story had just been about a He-Man who was, for all intents and purposes, a hermit that ran around slaying demons, there's an entire section of the current fan base that would never has been as invested.

I don't want to knock the appeal of the dual identity for the non-heterosexual fans, but I can't really relate to that situation and it doesn't make the character more interesting in my eyes. For me, the "demonslaying barbarian on a wartorn planet" is the primary appeal. He-Man got me into all the other barbarian properties, and when he started deviating too much from that - like in New Adventures - the appeal was lost to me.

Just as the "She-Ra" series was far darker and more violent than the "He-Man" cartoon, Prince Adam was far from a wimp pretending to be something he wasn't. Just the opposite really: He-Man is who he is in actuality, whereas the Adam persona is a masque he is forced to wear--by the Sorceress--to protect his friends and loved ones. He doesn't want people to think he's lazy or inept, especially his father, and yet he has no other choice. How can that extra level of personal turmoil not make the character more interesting?

Even without the powersword and the harness, Pre-Filmation He-Man still bested monsters single-handedly. He didn't solely depend on his magic attributes like Adam does. So, unlike Superman who poses as a mere human, Adam is the real person, not the mask, and He-Man is his magic alter ego, who only exists in order to overcome the various challenges he faces.

I am not at all opposed to creating a more layered personality. And it's not because someone is a barbarian that he is automatically reduced to a stereotypical, one dimensional character. There's no reason why a barbarian can't have both brawn and brains or be in inner turmoil as you call it. But the problem is that, as far as I'm concerned, the dual identity didn't succeed at making him more interesting but instead dummed the whole cartoon down.

[bcrduke]

I've always liked the royal family being a part of the story... I am very much a fan of the Shakesperean-style dynamic set up between keldor / Randor / Adam, Marlena / Lyn, Keldor / Adam, etc.

I think it's interesting and it raises the stakes... I'm all for that.

[gbagok]

I beg to differ. Conan has been around for nearly 80 years and he's still going strong, Red Sonja is turning 40 and she's still around. Artists like Frank Frazetta and Boris Vallejo have had an extensive fan following, spanning multiple decades. I don't know if Slaine has made it across the pond yet, but here in Europe he has been quite successful.
True, they don't reach a mainstream audience like MOTU did back in the day, but I wouldn't exactly call that crashed and burned. Conan has had 3 movies since 1982 and will probably get a fourth one before He-Man gets a second one out, even though the reboot with Jason Momoa wasn't exactly a hit.

I don't think Conan's long history discredits the point that other cartoon barbarian franchises from the time He-Man first came out have not endured like he has. Conan the Adventurer came out even later and also hasn't continued to exist in other incarnations. Heck, I've been waiting for years for that animated Red Nails movie and still nothing. And honestly the only reason another Conan movie is being talked about at all is because of Arnold's star power. I look at the awful movies that were made after his first turn in the role (which was kind of its own thing and not terribly faithful) and I cringe more so than I do even at the Goddard MOTU movie. Have you tried watching Red Sonja or Kull the Conquerer? They don't even have the excuse of being based on a toyline for kids! Utter garbage. Mighty Morphin Power Rangers had a better movie.

I've always liked the royal family being a part of the story... I am very much a fan of the Shakesperean-style dynamic set up between keldor / Randor / Adam, Marlena / Lyn, Keldor / Adam, etc.

I think it's interesting and it raises the stakes... I'm all for that.

To be fair, they aren't clearly said to not exist in the early mini comics, they just don't appear to have raised He-Man--who may or may not actually be a grown up Adam. They didn't raise Adora in Filmation, maybe both their kids were abducted and raised apart from them. The Keldor/Skeletor connection would need adjustment too, but they could be creatively re-inserted without compromising the barbarian elements. Conan encountered plenty of kings--well, princesses anyway. It'd be easier to reconcile them back into the mythology than the bird-themed Sorceress at least.

[Crusader]

I don't think Conan's long history discredits the point that other cartoon barbarian franchises from the time He-Man first came out have not endured like he has. Conan the Adventurer came out even later and also hasn't continued to exist in other incarnations. Heck, I've been waiting for years for that animated Red Nails movie and still nothing. And honestly the only reason another Conan movie is being talked about at all is because of Arnold's star power. I look at the awful movies that were made after his first turn in the role (which was kind of its own thing and not terribly faithful) and I cringe more so than I do even at the Goddard MOTU movie. Have you tried watching Red Sonja or Kull the Conquerer? They don't even have the excuse of being based on a toyline for kids! Utter garbage. Mighty Morphin Power Rangers had a better movie.

Kull the Conquerer is a piece of trash, I'll give you that , but are you serious about Red Sonja ??? I absolutely love that movie. It's one of the first movies I can remember from my childhood, together with Ladyhawke, Fire & Ice, Krull and The Beastmaster. I must have watched that movie a thousand times and it never got old. Truth be told, I rewatched Krull and The Beastmaster a couple of years ago, and they weren't at all like I remembered them.

Anyway, here in Belgium Red Sonja comics are way easier to find than the new He-Man comics. They even get adapted to the European format.

[Benedict Judas Hel]

Have you tried watching Red Sonja? They don't even have the excuse of being based on a toyline for kids! Utter garbage.

but are you serious about Red Sonja ??? I absolutely love that movie. It's one of the first movies I can remember from my childhood, together with Ladyhawke, Fire & Ice, Krull and The Beastmaster. I must have watched that movie a thousand times and it never got old. Truth be told, I rewatched Krull and The Beastmaster a couple of years ago, and they weren't at all like I remembered them.

Sorry, Mr. Bawkbagok. I got to agree with the uncaped Crusader. Red Sonja had the best opening fight scene ever filmed (in my most humble evil opinion, of course). I also got to agree with his choices of Krull, Ladyhawke, and The Beastmaster. Don't know about Fire and Ice but I've always wanted to watch that one.

[Crusader]

Sorry, Mr. Bawkbagok. I got to agree with the uncaped Crusader. Red Sonja had the best opening fight scene ever filmed (in my most humble evil opinion, of course). I also got to agree with his choices of Krull, Ladyhawke, and The Beastmaster. Don't know about Fire and Ice but I've always wanted to watch that one.

The story is a little thin, but the animation is stellar and it's above all else an ode to the art of Frank Frazetta. I'd definitely recommend giving it a watch. The movie has been released on DVD, but you can find it on Youtube as well.

[Beastmaster]

Sorry, Mr. Bawkbagok. I also got to agree with his choices of Krull, Ladyhawke, and The Beastmaster. Don't know about Fire and Ice but I've always wanted to watch that one.

I'm glad to hear you guys say this... Was there ever a better film?

[gbagok]

Sorry, Mr. Bawkbagok. I got to agree with the uncaped Crusader. Red Sonja had the best opening fight scene ever filmed (in my most humble evil opinion, of course). I also got to agree with his choices of Krull, Ladyhawke, and The Beastmaster. Don't know about Fire and Ice but I've always wanted to watch that one.

Watch the Red Sonja movie that follows that fight scene and try to tell me it's not bad. You're free to like it, shoot I "like" it just fine even if I did think Sandahl Bergman in her Julie Newmar costume shoulda won in the end, but it's still a bad movie. Europeans may remember it fondly, but it didn't have staying power in the States.

Also, about my name, that was tacky.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm glad to hear you guys say this... Was there ever a better film?

I said nothing bad of Beastmaster, he at least got a series and a sequel (with Wings Hauser as the villain, what more can anyone ask for?)

[Benedict Judas Hel]

Watch the Red Sonja movie that follows that fight scene and try to tell me it's not bad. You're free to like it, shoot I "like" it just fine even if I did think Sandahl Bergman in her Julie Newmar costume shoulda won in the end, but it's still a bad movie.

Bad perhaps but utter garbage? That's where I disagree. This movie has Conan, Donatello and Valeria. This alone keeps it from being utter garbage. There are other films deserving of that moniker.

Also, about my name, that was tacky.

Not a fan of The Brak Show, huh? Ah, well. Apologies.

[shadowfall1976]

I myself, personally never liked the Barbarian type movies. I remember my brother watching Beastmaster all the time, but I never saw any attraction to it. And all the Conan movies....no, tried to watch, didn't hold my interest.

[MegaGearMax]

I myself, personally never liked the Barbarian type movies. I remember my brother watching Beastmaster all the time, but I never saw any attraction to it. And all the Conan movies....no, tried to watch, didn't hold my interest.

I've got a question...if you could purge He-Man of his barbarian elements, would you? I don't know...make him a knight or put him in spandex. But get rid of his being half-naked in furs.

[shadowfall1976]

I've got a question...if you could purge He-Man of his barbarian elements, would you? I don't know...make him a knight or put him in spandex. But get rid of his being half-naked in furs.

What does that even have to do with anything?

Barbarian....

Of or relating to a land, culture, or people alien and usually believed to be inferior to another land, culture, or people, or lacking refinement, learning, or artistic or literary culture....

Pre-Filmation....Mini Comic #1 He-Man....yes, by definition pretty much a barbarian.

Filmation did purge the Barbarian out, to me. Being in furry britches doesn't equal barbarian to me, He-Man is Adam, a Prince, lives in a large palace, he has manners, etiquette. And as He-Man he still possesses care, knowledge, power, manners.... He didn't create a hut using stones from a mountain he knocked loose using his fists, he didn't walk barefoot leaving a straw hut village carrying a spear, he was born a Prince.

What I find funny, is a villager with no technology in his village whatsoever, who didn't even own shoes or boots, or a shirt for that matter, can suddenly jump on a flying device and fly like he's known all his life....I don't know about you, but anyone who's never driven before could get into a car, and somewhat figure it out, especially if they've seen someone do it....but likely....they're still driving through the neighbors house if not properly taught, let alone something that flies.

And we already have a lame ass blue knight, and a lame ass purple time traveler, both in Spandex. So....no.

Not to mention Filmation helped to actually make a solid story line, I've read and remember the first 4 comics....they bounced around, shifted characters and character appearances....the sword was resplit by Goddess, supposedly hidden in never to be found locations, Teela was blonde, suddenly Skeletor easily found the pieces again, and then Teela became a red head....was stupid enough to believe Skeletor was the King of Grayskull, after already fighting him as a blonde....wait....nevermind....

Stratos went from flesh to feathers back to flesh, Battle Cat came fresh from the jungle already wearing armor....I know cats are smart, but I have yet to see one dress itself. And the best of all, how in the hell was Skeletor already inside Grayskull before he had the pieces of the sword again? Supposedly CG needed both pieces to even lower the bridge to get in....And where in the hell did Goddess go, by Mini Comic #4 it's been barely a few weeks or months?....

This, is why I never cared for the comics once I got the toys, only after seeing Filmation first then learning of the toys....

[MegaGearMax]

What does that even have to do with anything?

Curiousity on my part. Some fans are so used to the Filmation version of He-Man that the barbaric elements are superfluous. He might as well not look like a barbarian. Since you don't care for barbarians, I wanted to see how far it went, as far as appearance goes.

Filmation did purge the Barbarian out, to me. Being in furry britches doesn't equal barbarian to me, He-Man is Adam, a Prince, lives in a large palace, he has manners, etiquette. And as He-Man he still possesses care, knowledge, power, manners.... He didn't create a hut using stones from a mountain he knocked loose using his fists, he didn't walk barefoot leaving a straw hut village carrying a spear, he was born a Prince.

Barbarian He-Man isn't much different than the Filmation He-Man. All you're missing is the constant wisecracks and humor (Barbarian He-Man had less), lack of violence and morals. In the few stories that we have, the barbarian was still honorable and heroic; he protected villagers from rampaging monsters and the kingdom of Eternia, Castle Grayskull and the world itself from Skeletor, despite his roots. Despite both characters being barbarians, He-Man isn't Conan. There isn't any raping or pillaging. There's no drinking or wenching (that was Pre-Filmation Adam, actually).