Do you think He-Man would have been as successful if he had stayed just a barbarian?

[dedset13]

I think just the fact that it was a TV show that supported the toys really helped sell a lot of figures. I think it could have been truer to the early mini comics and done just as well. Just having a fun adventure cartoon series in conjunction with toys I think was the key, and a novelty at the time.

G.I. Joe, Transformers, ThunderCats and many others tried to copy He-Man's cartoon formula and none of them were as successful as He-Man was in the 80's.

I enjoy the mini-comics and the toyline was a success before FILMation came along. However, without some of the unique aspects that FILMation introduced, I highly doubt it would have been the phenomenon that it was in it's prime.

[shadowfall1976]

No, The toys would have went maybe a few waves, but without the promotion by Filmation....it would have died soon after. Sorry, but Comics alone would not have been enough to sustain the toys, I mean Transformers had more to offer than the simple waist snapping He-Man and even they would likely have fallen off, if not for the G1 cartoon.

I for one would have never gotten into He-Man if not for the Filmation cartoon, and I know for a fact I am not alone, despite what all the Filmation detractors think. And most of my friends that played with He-Man, knew of He-Man from the cartoon, not the comics, not the toys, none of us were big comic fans at all, a couple of my friends were, but the majority of us, I remember clearly, did not care for comics, and learned of MOTU only once Prince Adam donned the pink tights. I saw commercials, sure, but nothing caught my eye until I realized there was a story on my TV that made me even remotely care about MOTU, otherwise they were just another whatever toy I would have forgotten about in time.

So in short....I do not believe MOTU would have been anything past a few waves of toys if they stayed with the barbarian theme alone.

[Dr Kain]

Personally I thought the pre-Filmation stuff most resembled Thundarr the Barbarian with Eternia being a post-apocalyptic fantasy world, and He-Man, Teela, and MAA as a troika hero set each with their own ride (Battle Cat, Charger, and the Battle Ram). I could see a road/chase series with them trying to find Castle Grayskull, Skeletor chasing them wanting the other half of the sword that he'll need to open the castle and become all powerful--which is starting to sound like Blackstar. You could probably get some cool stories out of the premise, but if that would have been more successful back in the 80s, I'm not so sure. I mean Blackstar, Thundarr, Galtar....none of them were the hit He-Man was and is now. I also think the large selection of characters was part of MOTU's appeal, and that the rather small main cast of the Filmation cartoon was a weakness more than a strength (compared to the character overload we got from Transformers and GI Joe's cartoons).

I don't think He-Man would have been as popular if he'd remained a Barbarian. He'd have been just another Conan/Tarzan type of character. Granted, both Conan and Tarzan are cool characters, but they are a bit generic.

See, this I have to disagree with both of you. The more I have been thinking about it today, especially since I just read the original mini-comic, the halves of the power sword itself could have easily set He-Man apart from those other shows. Okay, so maybe back in the 80s it would not have worked, but I actually think Mattel should at least do one animated DTV that is based off the original mini-comic. I don't know why, but my interest in He-Man is slightly getting renewed just from thinking about this.

In fact, here is my new display inspired by that one comic (this is what it will look like if I do sell off my collection sans these figures and Ram-Man):

[Adam_Prince of Eternia]

But He-Man was pretty successful right out the gate as an action figure series, wasn't it? I mean the first wave. No cartoon yet either.

The first assortment was a success, but FILMation made Masters of the Universe a $2-billion property. To my previous point, Thundarr the Barbarian is strikingly similar to MinEternia Masters of the Universe, from its aesthetics to its premise, and did not come close to the success of He-Man. If MinEternia Masters of the Universe had continued, it would have faired no better than Thundarr.

[MegaGearMax]

The first assortment was a success, but FILMation made Masters of the Universe a $2-billion property. To my previous point, Thundarr the Barbarian is strikingly similar to MinEternia Masters of the Universe, from its aesthetics to its premise, and did not come close to the success of He-Man. If MinEternia Masters of the Universe had continued, it would have faired no better than Thundarr.

Thundarr was only a cartoon at the time. That show didn't have toys, books, comics, records and other media promoting it. From the start, Masters was already bigger than Thundarr. Filmation didn't start until the Fall of MOTU's second year.

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G.I. Joe, Transformers, ThunderCats and many others tried to copy He-Man's cartoon formula and none of them were as successful as He-Man was in the 80's.

I enjoy the mini-comics and the toyline was a success before FILMation came along. However, without some of the unique aspects that FILMation introduced, I highly doubt it would have been the phenomenon that it was in it's prime.

I think MOTU was as big as it was because it was the FIRST toyline with a cartoon showing those characters in action every weekday. If ThunderCats or G.I. Joe were the first to have a toyline and cartoon right after the FCC regulations were lifted, I think they would have easily taken MOTU's place. Any property might have been able to do this.

I really don't think specifically Filmation elements had anything to do with MOTU's success; it wasn't like kids knew of barbarian He-Man and hated MOTU only to suddenly get turned onto him when Prince Adam and Orko were introduced. I believe that Filmation made MOTU even more successful because it showed He-Man in action, showed off his world and gave voice to all of those characters/toys before any other property did.




BIG TIME AFTERTHOUGHT!

Okay, after thinking about it I have to change my original opinion...I'm a Pre-Filmation and MYP fan -- Filmation is too kiddified for me, as I like my MOTU more barbaric, serious and darker. However...

HOWEVER, I would say that the Prince Adam storyline has a few inheritant advantages over barbarian He-Man. Although the villains are goofy (and even that is arguable -- LITTLE kids seem to like bungling, comical villains over serious and competent ones) and He-Man was practically invincible, Prince Adam He-Man had morals and He-Man was a role model to kids, instead of a heroic barbarian. Like barbarian He-Man, Thundarr also heroically saved peoples lives, but the stories were straightforward action adventure tales. Saturday morning sidekicks as annoying as they were, made MOTU more child-friendly AND parent friendly.

In all, I think if barbarian He-Man was the first cartoon with a toyline and had 130 episodes bringing that character to life, we wouldn't think that he would be a limited character. He probably would have been very successful had that version of the character been animated first, but the kiddified Filmation aspects would captured even more of an audience of moms and kids than the action-packed barbaric version with no morals would have.

If Barbarian He-Man would have had a cartoon and toyline with 130 episodes that was the first to do so, it probably would have made one billion dollars in sales, but the kiddified He-Man would have probably made two billion. That child factor -- as much as I hate kiddie elements in MOTU, it's much too great not to consider.

[Mr_Yuck]

I'd have to say I don't think that it would've been as big without Filmation. I think the toyline would've gone on for a bit longer, but I don't think it would've reached the commercial success it did (Liscensed merch, the Power Tour, She-Ra spin off, etc.).

I will say though that I wish the battle for joining the swords and thus gaining entry into Castle Grayskull was a bit more prominent in today's storyline. Honestly, it just seems like it' kinda shoehorned into the story, using it as part of Adam's quest to become He-Man. I like to think that since both Adam and Skeletor are decendants of King Grayskull, both would have access to the power that resided within the Castle through channeling it through their swords. In my mind this makes the struggle for power more epic and balances the power to make it truly a war that is up for grabs. I still enjoy the concept of the Castle being a place of great mystery and power, not just where the good guys hang out.

[Dr Kain]

BTW, what do you mean FCC regulations were lifted?

Also, guys, I didn't mean if He-Man would be successful without a cartoon, I meant would it had still been as successful if Filmation had kept him as a barbarian instead of making him a prince.

[csc0709]

Without the help of the Filmation cartoon, He-Man would never have received the worldwide exposure that it did. Thus, it would not have been nearly as successful. I think the current Classics line is limited in that respect. If we had a full-fledged movie or cartoon series to go along with this line, it would be much bigger than it is right now. People put too much emphasis on the comics. I personally hate comics and won't read them to this day (even though I've tried). I would never have liked He-Man without the Filmation cartoon. I know there are more fans like myself. You really can't compare the likes to Conana or Tarzan to He-Man cause neither franchise was anywhere near as big.

[Invicta]

Cartoon was certainly a big thing, and should theming had stayed as barbarian, there still would have to had been a TV show. Maybe even by Filmation, but with a bit different theme. I am pretty sure it would have still been corny no matter what

[sirsniffy]

No, I don't think He-Man would have been as successful as a simple Barbarian. The popularity of He-Man as a brand comes largely from the Filmation cartoon, which is how most people globally became acquainted with the brand. I first became acquainted with the comics(which I absolutely adore), but the Filmation show became the main content for me. It was Filmation's high production values which cements it as perhaps one of the greatest cartoon shows of all time. Music, story, etc...you even got a bit of morality thrown in, which is something kids today never get.

He-Man would have faded into obscurity if it relied on the toys and comics alone.

[Dr Kain]

One of the greatest cartoons of all time?

tries to hold in laughter

Sorry, check out Gargoyles, Batman TAS, Animaniacs, and The Simpsons (only through Season 9). I can think of at least 25 cartoons better than the Filmation He-Man show, and none of them are from the 80s. In fact, the 80s were terrible cartoons in today's world. Yeah, I grew up on them too, but not a single one of them can hold a candle to the toons of the 90s and early 00s. They just did not age well at all.

Now is it one of the better cartoons from the 80s? Unfortunately, yes. It isn't better than Thundercats, She-Ra, or Transformers, but it is better than the GI Joe toon (especially now that I have read the Joe comics from then, which are so much better) and Silverhawks.

[MegaGearMax]

BTW, what do you mean FCC regulations were lifted?

In the early 80's Ronald Reagan lifted the FCC regulation that stopped cartoons from being about toys (because they would be half-hour long commercials). Masters of the Universe was the very first show to take advantage of this.

Also, guys, I didn't mean if He-Man would be successful without a cartoon, I meant would it had still been as successful if Filmation had kept him as a barbarian instead of making him a prince.

A transforming prince might be more kid-friendly than a heroic barbarian, but really it was all how Filmation hit all of those kid-friendly tropes. They could have given the barbarian a supporting cast, bungling villains and morals. Good question though...

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One of the greatest cartoons of all time?

tries to hold in laughter

Sorry, check out Gargoyles, Batman TAS, Animaniacs, and The Simpsons (only through Season 9). I can think of at least 25 cartoons better than the Filmation He-Man show, and none of them are from the 80s. In fact, the 80s were terrible cartoons in today's world. Yeah, I grew up on them too, but not a single one of them can hold a candle to the toons of the 90s and early 00s. They just did not age well at all.

Now is it one of the better cartoons from the 80s? Unfortunately, yes. It isn't better than Thundercats, She-Ra, or Transformers, but it is better than the GI Joe toon (especially now that I have read the Joe comics from then, which are so much better) and Silverhawks.

Well, you ARE on He-Man.org.

[Whiplash7]

See, this I have to disagree with both of you. The more I have been thinking about it today, especially since I just read the original mini-comic, the halves of the power sword itself could have easily set He-Man apart from those other shows. Okay, so maybe back in the 80s it would not have worked, but I actually think Mattel should at least do one animated DTV that is based off the original mini-comic. I don't know why, but my interest in He-Man is slightly getting renewed just from thinking about this.

In fact, here is my new display inspired by that one comic (this is what it will look like if I do sell off my collection sans these figures and Ram-Man):

http://archivaria.com/DrKain/MOTUC01.JPG
http://archivaria.com/DrKain/MOTUC02.JPG

Wow, welcome to the prefilmation club, Dr. Kain.
I'd love it if they did an animated DVD of the original canon. It'll never happen, but it would be awesome. But, Scott and the 4H have really been catering to the original concepts, and their fans, in MOTUC. I couldn't be happier.

Thundarr was only a cartoon at the time. That show didn't have toys, books, comics, records and other media promoting it. From the start, Masters was already bigger than Thundarr. Filmation didn't start until the Fall of MOTU's second year.

I can honestly say that I never watched Thundarr, and know little about it. I don't get the comparisons people are making. Blackstarr probably had more in common with the original motu, than Thundarr. Reading the synopsis of the show, I just don't see major similarities.

HOWEVER, I would say that the Prince Adam storyline has a few inheritant advantages over barbarian He-Man.

I really don't think that the original canon, made into a cartoon, would have needed to be action packed, with no morals. If they had simply retained the basic elements of the story, while adding in all the kiddified stuff, it would have been fine, and popular. The only parts that really matter for marketing are: He-Man, Skeletor, and Castle Grayskull.

[NorthCoast]

Me and my friends were really into MOTU before the cartoon, and actually were not big fans of the show as kids. We just thought the mini-comics were better and didn't like the goofy additions of the cartoon. For us, the show actually diminished our love for He-Man, but we may have been the minority, and where 8 by the time the cartoon aired.

The toyline was quite popular and was out well over a year befor the show. I never thought of He-Man as just a barbarian, he was a hero!

[hadley]

I think as usual, MGM makes awesome points. He said much of what I would have if he didn't come in here first.

I imagine Prince Adam transforming to He-Man was a way to tell kids, "Look, he's just like you! He's a normal guy but he has magic! Now imagine if you had this magic and could transform and have all these rad adventures!" I'm sure that's at least part of the pull of the cartoon.

I personally would have preferred it if Prince Adam never existed, because as far as secret identities go, Prince Adam is really a crummy one. The reason Spider-Man has a secret identity is so he can have a normal life when he isn't saving the world. If his secret identity was that of Prince of America or whatever, well he's not exactly having a normal life and he and his family will always be under attack by enemies anyway. However, as a way to market this to kids and really wrap up those kids' imaginations, it was a pretty brilliant thing to do.

That's why Classics is so rad. If you prefer your He-Man to be a barbarian, well then there was this guy a generation before Adam who tussled with Skeletor. Yeah, maybe his tribe called him Oo-Lar or whatever, but who cares. He was He-Man and this Adam kid came later playing dress-up. Move the boundaries of the timeline and suit it to your preferences.

[bcrduke]

I think arguing that Filmation is to "kiddie" is a strange argument for any fan to make now.

Of course it was "kiddie" - it was a children's TV show. When I watched it back then, I took it seriously. When I watch it now, I realize that it's geared towards kids, and the villains are silly, etc.

But I still see the stories as having a lot of integrity.

Look at Evilseed and Marzo. Both were Filmation villains who were given a more adult reinvention in MYP. That would have worked for almost any Filmation character (Or POP or NA) because they are almost all great characters. That's why MOTU is successful. It is a character driven property and the characters and their stories are interesting... the stories are so good, in my opinion, that they work well simplified for kids OR given complexity and more adult themes to bring them to an adult audience.


All that being said, I think without the events that the brand experienced, it would not have the staying power it has today.

I LOVE pre-Filmation MOTU... but it is just one component of the brand that I love.

I will never relate to those fans who can only love one version of MOTU. I don't understand it.


For example, to me, MOTU is made up of:

-Pre-Filmation Mini-Comics
-Kid Stuff Books & Records, and coloring books
-'80's DC Comics
-Filmation MOTU
-POP mini-comics
-Filmation POP
-STAR Comics
-'87 Movie
-NA Mini-Comics
-NA cartoon videos (I never saw the series on TV - only the videos that came with many of the toys)
-MYP cartoon
-MVC comic
-Fan-Fics (gbagok & Iceman in particular)
-MOTUC bios
-DC digi-comics
-current DC Comics

Sure, some of them conflict, but honestly, it's not difficult to appreciate the mythos by marrying all of this together.

It's a LUXURY to be able to do that.

But to the point: NO... had He-Man just remained a barbarian, it would have been fine for a little while, but the line wouldn't have lasted as long as it has... nor would it have been the billion dollar cash cow it has been for Mattel... nor would Dreamworks be prepping for anything to do with MOTU or POP.

You don't have to like any of the aforementioned components... you can ignore them if you want, but to say that any of them didn't contribute to the success of the brand is irresponsible.

[jerec350]

When He-Man first came out I loved the barbarian aspect of it. Being a huge fan of Blackstar I loved the idea of a hero and villain both possessing a half to the power sword. To me He-Man was just a strong man and not nearly invincible like later media depicted him. When I first saw Filmation I remember being confused as to who this Adam guy was. I understand it was to make him more super hero like to be more appealing to kids and parents but I would have preferred he stayed as the barbarian rather than a prince.

[marndt8448]

Also, guys, I didn't mean if He-Man would be successful without a cartoon, I meant would it had still been as successful if Filmation had kept him as a barbarian instead of making him a prince.

Yeah, you even said it right in the first post:

Do you think that if Mattel and Filmation had stuck with He-Man being just a simple barbarian it would have still be the hit it was in both toys and cartoons, or do you think the series would have ended sooner?

As a fan of the original mini-comics first, obviously I'm biased...
Yes, I think MOTU (with the help of a cartoon based on MOTU ) could have been just as successful without the whole secret identity thing.... but I do think it would have been a lot tougher though. You wouldn't have that "Adam's just one of us" 'in' with the kids that a previous posted mentioned. I think He-man gaining the tecno vest and growing into the role of a hero could have worked just as well, but not as easily done, especially considering Filmation wanted the shows to be all stand-alone episodes (minus the very rare occasion that there was a two-parter), but I think a lot more of the shows had to have been episodic rather than stand-alones.

[Adam_Prince of Eternia]

Thundarr was only a cartoon at the time. That show didn't have toys, books, comics, records and other media promoting it. From the start, Masters was already bigger than Thundarr. Filmation didn't start until the Fall of MOTU's second year.

Masters of the Universe was only a line of toys at the time. It did not have an animated series, books, comics, records or other media promoting it until the following year. So from the start, it was no bigger than Thundarr. The reason Thundarr the Barbarian did not go on to have toys, books, comics, records and other media promoting it because it did not gain sufficient popularity with kids.

In all, I think if barbarian He-Man was the first cartoon with a toyline and had 130 episodes bringing that character to life, we wouldn't think that he would be a limited character. He probably would have been very successful had that version of the character been animated first, but the kiddified Filmation aspects would captured even more of an audience of moms and kids than the action-packed barbaric version with no morals would have.

If that was the case, then Thundarr the Barbarian would have been more successful.

[Lich Leech]

In fact, I hate to say it, but I think He-Man is much better with a smaller cast of just a few characters instead of this huge amount of friends and family and soldiers and subjects and others running about.

Agree. Of course if you want to sell toys, you need to constantly come up with new ones. But there's something really classic about just these three roaming the plains:



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Masters of the Universe was only a line of toys at the time. It did not have an animated series, books, comics, records or other media promoting it until the following year. So from the start, it was no bigger than Thundarr. The reason Thundarr the Barbarian did not go on to have toys, books, comics, records and other media promoting it because it did not gain sufficient popularity with kids.






If that was the case, then Thundarr the Barbarian would have been more successful.

He-Man was successful out of the gate without any cartoon. There were no Thundarr toys.

I'm sure Filmation helped a lot, but it didn't create He-Man's success.

[Adam_Prince of Eternia]

I can honestly say that I never watched Thundarr, and know little about it. I don't get the comparisons people are making. Blackstarr probably had more in common with the original motu, than Thundarr. Reading the synopsis of the show, I just don't see major similarities.

Perhaps if you watch the show, then you will understand the comparisons. As someone who has the complete series and has seen every episode, I cannot watch it without thinking about the similarities to MinEternia.

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He-Man was successful out of the gate without any cartoon. There were no Thundarr toys.

I'm sure Filmation helped a lot, but it didn't create He-Man's success.

Thundarr was successful out of the gate too—without any toys. Successful enough that it got a second season. I'm sure toys would have helped a lot, but they didn't create Thundarr's success.

[Lich Leech]

Thundarr was successful out of the gate too—without any toys. Successful enough that it got a second season. I'm sure toys would have helped a lot, but they didn't create Thundarr's success.

How successful were they? IIRC He-Man sold as much as Barbie in its first year out. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[RocketPunch]

No, I think the elements that were introduced to the mythos after the barbarian era helped to increase He-Man's popularity immensely.

The iconic transformation sequence, the "I Have The Power" catchphrase, having a weakling like Prince Adam gain superpowers by holding aloft his magic sword... all of that stuff just adds to the kid appeal of the property.

[shadowfall1976]

Agree. Of course if you want to sell toys, you need to constantly come up with new ones. But there's something really classic about just these three roaming the plains:

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b2...ack_-_1024.jpg

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He-Man was successful out of the gate without any cartoon. There were no Thundarr toys.

I'm sure Filmation helped a lot, but it didn't create He-Man's success.

It helped create MOTU's success to more kids than you think that knew nothing or about MOTU before Filmation. Fact of teh matter is, MOTU would not be where it is today without Filmation.

She-Ra (spin off of MOTU created by Filmation)
NA (continued a Filmation based story, using Adam & He-Man, of which Filmation created)
MOTU 200X (loosely based on Filmation as a starting point)
Classics (contains many characters originally made possible in the Vintage line by Filmation, not the comics)

The mini comics could have helped carry the line a couple years, but the mini comics and 30 second toy commercials (with random kids, and no story) alone no, a 30 minute toy commercial with a plot and likeable new characters....yes. You saw the commercials only if you were home to watch them, hardly anyone in 1982 had a VHS or Beta, and it's not like pausing and rewinding a DVR today....But kids sat down to watch Filmation for an entire half hour.

[gbagok]

See, this I have to disagree with both of you. The more I have been thinking about it today, especially since I just read the original mini-comic, the halves of the power sword itself could have easily set He-Man apart from those other shows. Okay, so maybe back in the 80s it would not have worked, but I actually think Mattel should at least do one animated DTV that is based off the original mini-comic. I don't know why, but my interest in He-Man is slightly getting renewed just from thinking about this.

In fact, here is my new display inspired by that one comic (this is what it will look like if I do sell off my collection sans these figures and Ram-Man):

http://archivaria.com/DrKain/MOTUC01.JPG
http://archivaria.com/DrKain/MOTUC02.JPG

I don't think you and I are disagreeing on much if you concede that it probably would not have worked in the 80s as that was all I was saying. Blackstar did the exact same thing with the swords, and Thundar and Galtar had the tone and greater emphasis on barbarians (coincidentally I loved all these shows). But the two swords doesn't only work with a more barbarian approach to the property either. It could be done just as well alongside influences from Filmation or MYP's. As for a movie now, that's different from what would have worked in the 80s. I think without a doubt most of us want something a little darker than Filmation, and at least as dark as MYP got. As always I'd be careful about turning He-Man into a more fantastic version of Conan, but I'd certainly put down money for any MOTU animated movie so long as it's not...I don't know, Adventure Time character designs or something. I'd hope that the failure of the Conan Red Nails animated movie to get finished wouldn't happen to He-Man or any attempt at an animated action movie.