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Thread: Roast Gooble Dinner - Episode 109 Discussion!

  1. #51
    CRITAcal for MOTUC 2015!! Barezz's Avatar
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    I think Orko and Razz are tied in terms of their "cartoony" looks. They are a different scale, but smaller, and Orko is basically a Final Fantasy Black wizard without feet. But I don't think it hurts the look or feel of the line to have Orko, or Madam Razz.

    Personally I hope that she gets made. To me she is perhaps the biggest core character that has never been made. It would be like if the Sorceress had never been made until this point. She is a very important part of the Great Rebellion, and one of the few who knew Adora's secret.

    (Although sidebar... when you think about the people who knew her secret...maybe she could have chosen a bit more wisely? )
    It is spelled "Crita", not "Critta". Misspell her name and Crita will knock the "T" out of you!

    Also...get her into the line!

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  2. #52
    Rainbow Warrior Irian's Avatar
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    Let me elaborate why I said I would be extremely upset if we get Madame Razz:

    1) I understand she has her fans, so I am totally fine with those who argue for her inclusion (in fact, please do argue for her if you want her - how else could Mattel come to a conclusion), but that doesn't mean I have to like her.

    2) Actually, if it was only one monthly slot that would be affected by Madame Razz's inclusion I wouldn't be partcularly upset, even though I find her cartoonish and hated her as a child. But she's a 100% new tool figure - which means 3, 4, 5 or more other figures would receive less tooling (fewer "skus") if she's included, so more unnecessary variants with minimal design changes and even less possibilities for other high-tooling figures like Modulok and the like. A figure like Madame Razz would influence a whole year not just a single monthly slot! And therefore I would be upset.

    Is it unfair to say that? Probably. But really, I would prefer to receive for example 4 new POP characters over 1 Madame Razz and 3 He-Man/Teela/MAA Variants ...

  3. #53
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RocketPunch View Post
    If they put Madame Razz into a live-action movie she could easily be played by an actress, but Orko would have to be CGI. That's why I feel Orko is the more cartoony of the two.
    I still can't say I agree, but that's definitely another way to look at it and I appreciate that POV!

    Quote Originally Posted by Sword2Blanket View Post
    However, there seemed to be a clear sentiment among several in this thread that her legitimacy in this line was dubious because she didn't meet some criteria that they deemed important.
    But again, that just comes down to what the individual likes and dislikes. I want General Sunder, but there may be fans who think he's ridiculous and don't want him taking up a slot. And that's completely okay. It's not personal if someone doesn't care for a character. I think one of the worst things we can do about character preference is make it personal in an unfavorable sense.

  4. #54
    CRITAcal for MOTUC 2015!! Barezz's Avatar
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    I think what happens is that people get scared that negative feedback about a character will keep it from getting made. If I say that I want Crita, and a whole bunch of other people agree and say they want her, not only does it feel good, but man, what if Toyguru sees these posts and decides to have her made? But if people respond that she would be a waste of a slot and that they don't want her, or worse, that she would make them regret having a sub...well then if he sees THAT...she will NEVER get made!

    Of course it doesn't work like that . But I do wonder if people get defensive because there is that fear that it could impact the release of a figure they like.
    It is spelled "Crita", not "Critta". Misspell her name and Crita will knock the "T" out of you!

    Also...get her into the line!

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  5. #55
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    I could see that. My only advise in that situation is to do an actual head count of the people saying they don't want a figure. In a lot of instances, I think we'll find it's 5, 10, maybe 20 people a lot of the time. That shouldn't impact a line that caters to thousands of fans.

  6. #56
    Ravage ThunderCat blackiecats's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JVS3 View Post
    In a lot of instances, I think we'll find it's 5, 10, maybe 20 people a lot of the time. That shouldn't impact a line that caters to thousands of fans.
    Apparently it does. Supposedly 4 people complained about Fangman on Facebook not being worth $25, which made TG consider poly bagging figures in 2014 to reduce cost of figures!
    10 figures I'd like: 10/Filmation Tung Lashor, 9/Saurod, 8/Perfuma (for completeness of POP ONLY!), 7/Sprag, Sprocker and Spritina, 6/Peekablue, 5/Hunga the Harpy, 4/Sssqueeze, 3/Filmation Clawful, 2/Dylamug, 1/Queen Angella.

  7. #57
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    What I gathered from that is Scott was merely putting the question to the fans to see how people truly felt instead of playing to just a few people.

  8. #58
    +2 Against Harpies Sword2Blanket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JVS3 View Post
    But again, that just comes down to what the individual likes and dislikes. I want General Sunder, but there may be fans who think he's ridiculous and don't want him taking up a slot. And that's completely okay. It's not personal if someone doesn't care for a character. I think one of the worst things we can do about character preference is make it personal in an unfavorable sense.
    I listened back to the episode again this morning, just to make sure I wasn't remembering things wrong. At one point Dan was talking about people complaining about the inclusions of Procrustus and Granamyr on his website and said something along the lines of he couldn't understand or didn't think it was right that people poopoo certain characters and say they don't deserve a spot in this line just because they personally didn't want them. Danielle seemed to adamantly agree and I thought you did too, but honestly everyone was talking at once and perhaps you didn't agree at all. Just to clarify again, I'm not trying to suggest that people should either want Madame Razz or keep their mouth shut. I just think there is a difference between saying you personally don't want a character and questioning the merits of their inclusion in the line.

    I realize that you, Val, do want Razz and I'm certainly not questioning your fan cred. I don't want to be hypothetically punched in the face and hear Dan say "oooooo snap". It's just my opinion that the way you went about making your point perhaps wasn't the best and kinda unnecessarily invited anti-Razz sentiment. You mentioned "constructive criticism" earlier, but honestly I just didn't see it as that. Once you went into your opinion, you kinda led with the fact that you thought she was cartoony, campy, a bunch of people wouldn't like her, and you didn't really know how to make it any better. And that was pretty much it. It just came of as feeling negative without any positive.

    And I think Barezz hit the nail on the head. Negative feedback is never good, especially when it seems as though some of these characters have an uphill battle to start with. Quite frankly, I do think that the post of just a few make a difference. I honestly believe that several characters already made in this line exist because of the campaign efforts of a few, if not single individuals. Not saying that this discussion is on the same order as that, I'm just saying I don't think it's totally immaterial.

    One last thing: You guys have talked in previous RGD about tone being lost over the internet. I often feel as if I'm taken as far more empassioned that I am. I'm definitely not personally offended by what anyone said, nor do I want to come across as if I'm attacking anyone. I just like to throw my support to the PoP gals when it starts feeling lopsided, offer my thoughts, and enjoy a good discourse.

  9. #59
    Hexcellent Horror Hostess
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    It was pretty clear that all of us definitely want Madame Razz. From what I remember, the discussion was not about IF they should make her but HOW they should make her. Val brought up the fact that there are fans who don't want a cartoony style (evidenced in various discussions of FIlmation characters) and expressed some concern in that regard, but I don't think anyone ever said they shouldn't make her.

    I think this poll indicates what people prefer - Filmation style Madame Razz by a very large margin.

    She definitely deserves a slot in the line.
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  10. #60
    Illumina & Cat please! Darkspecter's Avatar
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    I think Madame Razz should definitely be made (fans of PoP have been waiting nearly 30 years for her!) and I think she should maintain her current look. I mean, to me, Orko and Madame Razz look VERY similar (like how Adam and Adora pretty much share the same outfit).





    I also just want to throw this out there that I REALLY hope we get Uncle Montork and Dree-Elle soon. I mean, Mattel has had the Trollan buck for a few years and hasn't done anything with it since Orko. I need more Trollans!
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  11. #61
    Alcala Idolator Crusader's Avatar
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    Madame Razz is definitely in dire need of restyling. That dreadful Filmation tart just won't do. I'd suggest a bit less granny and a tad more hot mom.

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  12. #62
    Illumina & Cat please! Darkspecter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    Madame Razz is definitely in dire need of restyling. That dreadful Filmation tart just won't do. I'd suggest a bit less granny and a tad more hot mom.

    http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y26...BroomHiRes.jpg
    It's all just opinion, but I very much disagree about her design being dreadful. Sometimes simpler is better. I enjoyed a lot of the 200X redesigns when the new cartoon and toys came out, but I 100% hated the new Orko. He was way too detailed for my tastes. Sometimes simpler is better.

    Now, for MOTUC Madame Razz, I think it would work nicely if the 4H added SOME of the details that drawing has (visible stitching, more patchwork/tears in costume). I wouldn't want her to be taller or thinner, like that image though. I hate how all women have to be thin and sexy. Maybe Madame Razz was both of those things at one time, but she isn't any longer. She's a very powerful witch who's extremely old and forgets parts of spells. When people get older, they tend to get a little comical and forgetful. That is Madame Razz. I mean, seriously, what would be the point of releasing a figure people have wanted for nearly 30 years if she's redesigned in a way that the essence of her character/personality is gone and she's only semi-recognizable?

    Also, I hate the tech eyes and tribal tattoo pattern on her jacket. She looks like she has that dino-tech virus that was spreading on Preternia.

    I'm not knocking the artist. The artist is VERY talented. I think that Broom would be awesome.
    Last edited by Darkspecter; January 21, 2013 at 08:13pm.
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  13. #63
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    I do not want a "sexy" Madame Razz. That illustration is awesome, but she is not matronly enough in it.

    To elaborate on something referenced in the podcast, I always wondered if Madame Razz was half Twigget and half human.
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  14. #64
    wants Dragstor!!! Sir Reilly's Avatar
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    Maybe she's half Twigget, half Trollan! Who knows what evil things Azrog's been up to before Montork captured him!
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  15. #65
    +2 Against Harpies Sword2Blanket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Penny Dreadful View Post
    I always wondered if Madame Razz was half Twigget and half human.
    While that makes sense in terms of her appearance, it's a pretty disturbing hypothesis to consider.

  16. #66
    Alcala Idolator Crusader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspecter View Post
    It's all just opinion, but I very much disagree about her design being dreadful. Sometimes simpler is better. I enjoyed a lot of the 200X redesigns when the new cartoon and toys came out, but I 100% hated the new Orko. He was way too detailed for my tastes. Sometimes simpler is better.
    I did like MYP Orko, but indeed, he did feel a little stretched out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspecter View Post
    Now, for MOTUC Madame Razz, I think it would work nicely if the 4H added SOME of the details that drawing has (visible stitching, more patchwork/tears in costume). I wouldn't want her to be taller or thinner, like that image though. I hate how all women have to be thin and sexy. Maybe Madame Razz was both of those things at one time, but she isn't any longer. She's a very powerful witch who's extremely old and forgets parts of spells. When people get older, they tend to get a little comical and forgetful. That is Madame Razz. I mean, seriously, what would be the point of releasing a figure people have wanted for nearly 30 years if she's redesigned in a way that the essence of her character/personality is gone and she's only semi-recognizable?
    I don't mean restyle her to fit in with the other POP girls. She can smaller and a bit more chubby, which I think this drawing captures very well. The main reason why I buy these figures (outside of being MOTU) is because they are aesthetically pleasing. Maybe it's different for people who have nostalgic connections to Filmation Razz, but to me she's nothing more than an obnoxious eyesore of a character, her head in particular. This redesign, however, makes her interesting to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspecter View Post
    Also, I hate the tech eyes
    I hate the bulging yellow eyes. I can live with Clawful, Orko and Spikor, but only because of nostalgic reasons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Penny Dreadful View Post
    I do not want a "sexy" Madame Razz. That illustration is awesome, but she is not matronly enough in it.
    So "matronly" women can't be "sexy" ? ... I have to disagree on that
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  17. #67
    +2 Against Harpies Sword2Blanket's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    I don't mean restyle her to fit in with the other POP girls. She can smaller and a bit more chubby, which I think this drawing captures very well. The main reason why I buy these figures (outside of being MOTU) is because they are aesthetically pleasing. Maybe it's different for people who have nostalgic connections to Filmation Razz, but to me she's nothing more than an obnoxious eyesore of a character, her head in particular. This redesign, however, makes her interesting to me.
    I realize that this is just your opinion on her looks, but don't you think it's more important that the fans who have desired her for nearly 30 years get the specific Madame Razz they want instead of you getting a slightly more tolerable version (in your opinion) of a character you don't even like?

  18. #68
    TWIGGET ENTHUSIAST! Swifty's Avatar
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    Here's a point which I don't think has been made clear. Madame Razz AND BROOM are central characters who, much like Adora and Shadow Weaver, fans have waited 25+ years to get. We now have Adora and Shadow Weaver and they both look, for the most part, very close to their Filmation depiction. For those who want Madame and Broom (and all of the many popularity and most wanted polls suggest they rank fairly high) it seems the majority would prefer them to be handled in a similar fashion to Shadow Weaver.

    What I took from Val in the podcast was that she may need to be tweaked to cater to fans who are not so keen to receive them. Now I'm admittedly quite biased on their potential stylings, but this doesn't make much sense to me. For those who don't care for the characters I doubt anything other than a massive redesign would make them receptive. I can't foresee any amount of small "tweaking" working to change their minds. What I can see it doing is angering and massively disappointing those who have been excitedly waiting for them ... some of us for decades. It's quite likely this is the one and only chance for Madame Razz and Broom to be immortalized in plastic. I think it would be a shame to tweak them in such a way that would negate such enthusiasm, while failing to enthuse those who are most likely indifferent regardless of what's done to her. Details like wrinkles in clothes and skin folds (ala Fang Man) are one thing. Changing the body shape and overall appearance of characters who have only ever been presented in that one way just doesn't seem smart in my opinion.

    In any event, I'm glad that people are talking about them with increasing frequency!


    P.S. Penny I love the Rotar gif. I'm definitely onboard the Rotar train!
    Last edited by Swifty; January 22, 2013 at 06:21pm.
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  19. #69
    Alcala Idolator Crusader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sword2Blanket View Post
    I realize that this is just your opinion on her looks, but don't you think it's more important that the fans who have desired her for nearly 30 years get the specific Madame Razz they want instead of you getting a slightly more tolerable version (in your opinion) of a character you don't even like?
    First of, I didn't say I dislike the character an sich, I'm fine with a more mature, witchy sorceress who is scatterbrained and forgets her spells. I am however severely put off by the way this particular character was portrayed in Filmation, both visually and auditorily. The redesign by Buffalo Bill-man is not just more tolerable to me, it makes me want to see this character (or a similar redesign) in the line, future comics, a movie, etc.

    Why should the Filmation be the definitive look for every POP figure from here on end? What about the people that wanted the Star Sisters to be more closer to the toy prototypes? They will never get the figures they have been wanting for so long. I'm sure there are people who wanted a different version for Catra or Frosta. I myself would like a more toy-inspired Angella instead of the lame Filmation design.

    And why is it OK for all the males have an exaggerated, idealized physique (even Eldor sports bulging pecs and massive abs), but when it's one of the gals it's suddenly offensive and sexist if someone wants her to be more visually pleasing.
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  20. #70
    TWIGGET ENTHUSIAST! Swifty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crusader View Post
    First of, I didn't say I dislike the character an sich, I'm fine with a more mature, witchy sorceress who is scatterbrained and forgets her spells. I am however severely put off by the way this particular character was portrayed in Filmation, both visually and auditorily. The redesign by Buffalo Bill-man is not just more tolerable to me, it makes me want to see this character (or a similar redesign) in the line, future comics, a movie, etc.

    Why should the Filmation be the definitive look for every POP figure from here on end? What about the people that wanted the Star Sisters to be more closer to the toy prototypes? They will never get the figures they have been wanting for so long. I'm sure there are people who wanted a different version for Catra or Frosta. I myself would like a more toy-inspired Angella instead of the lame Filmation design.

    And why is it OK for all the males have an exaggerated, idealized physique (even Eldor sports bulging pecs and massive abs), but when it's one of the gals it's suddenly offensive and sexist if someone wants her to be more visually pleasing.
    That's fair, and I completely agree that an updated look would be both appropriate and awesome in future media. I'd love to see a kick butt version of her in a movie or comic. If she'd shown up in 200x with an updated look this might be a very different discussion. But this is a classics line. Every character is modeled after some previous incarnation of their design, most of them direct representations of our childhood nostalgia.

    The Star Sisters, as much as I love them, are not a great comparison in this instance. With all due respect to those who love them above all else, they are obscure characters. They did not have a central role in any media for the property. Even putting that fact aside, their representation in Classics was at least based on an official vintage depiction. Mattel didn't create a brand new take on them for this line. Madame Razz and Broom have no alternative look. They have only ever been depicted in this one way. It's my opinion that deviating from that design would make them OUT of place in a classics line.
    Last edited by Swifty; January 22, 2013 at 06:37pm.
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  21. #71
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    I think I'd rather just do the poll and not leave it up for speculation. I'd be thrilled if I was wrong about any concerns on her design and the vast majority of people want her as-is right off the screen of Filmation.

  22. #72
    TWIGGET ENTHUSIAST! Swifty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JVS3 View Post
    I think I'd rather just do the poll and not leave it up for speculation. I'd be thrilled if I was wrong about any concerns on her design and the vast majority of people want her as-is right off the screen of Filmation.
    As Danielle pointed out this question has been polled, although perhaps not worded exactly within the parameters of this current discussion. It still garnered a fairly healthy bit of participation though and the results have so far been very straightforward.
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  23. #73
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifty View Post
    As Danielle pointed out this question has been polled, although perhaps not worded exactly within the parameters of this current discussion. It still garnered a fairly healthy bit of participation though and the results have so far been very straightforward.
    A main page poll is a far different beast, my friend! But, it could prove to be identical in results as the existing subpoll one! That's certainly possible.

  24. #74
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    I hope we see Madame Razz and Broom in MOTUC. IMHO, Madame Razz is as "essential" as Orko.

    That doesn't mean that I wouldn't prefer to see Glimmer, Queen Angella, Castaspella, Mermista, Sea Hawk and/or Double Trouble released first, but I do think that Madame Razz should be on the "short list" of The Great Rebellion members to be made and, due to her unique tooling, should be at the top of the list to take a slot with a larger budget (e.g. SDCC Exclusive).

    As for the "style" of Madame Razz, I think a "matronly" Madame Razz is fine, so I would be happy with a Filmation basis. BUT, I would like to see additional sculpted details added to Madame Razz's jacket, pants, etc so that she fits well with the similarly "detailed" members of The Great Rebellion (particularly Bow and combination She-Ra who are a great mix of Filmation design and added details). The design by Emiliano seems to strike about the right balance between Filmation and MOTUC in respect of the detailed design.

  25. #75
    Alcala Idolator Crusader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swifty View Post
    That's fair, and I completely agree that an updated look would be both appropriate and awesome in future media. I'd love to see a kick butt version of her in a movie or comic. If she'd shown up in 200x with an updated look this might be a very different discussion. But this is a classics line. Every character is modeled after some previous incarnation of their design, most of them direct representations of our childhood nostalgia.
    Yeah, but if you compare the fan-art with Filmation you can't deny that all the elements are still present: the hat with the flower, the jacket, the stockings, the cape, the pointy boots, purple skin, tufts of white hair bursting through the hat, ... The only changes are the removal of the googly yellow eyes, the ghastly oversized chin and a slightly heftier bust. Is that really so bad ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swifty View Post
    The Star Sisters, as much as I love them, are not a great comparison in this instance. With all due respect to those who love them above all else, they are obscure characters. They did not have a central role in any media for the property. Even putting that fact aside, their representation in Classics was at least based on an official vintage depiction. Mattel didn't create a brand new take on them for this line. Madame Razz and Broom have no alternative look. They have only ever been depicted in this one way. It's my opinion that deviating from that design would make them OUT of place in a classics line.
    I only mentioned them because Filmation seems to be the default look for POP now, which I regret since there are lots of interesting designs outside of the cartoon as well.
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