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Thread: MOTU / DC Crossover Comic Mini-Series #1 Discussion

  1. #526
    Master of Good Hair Eamon's Avatar
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    Or we could just improve the one we have and that way everybody wins, more cost effective and it's more likely than DC putting another licensed comic to print.

    But hey, I'd be cool with another more proper MOTU comic too.
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  2. #527
    SoH Supporter He-Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eamon View Post
    What do you mean by balance? If you mean a 50/50 representation of people who like the comic and who doesn't, it wouldn't be a real balance. Balance would be a real representation of the opinion, and in general, while some like the comic, the consensus seems to be that the comic is bad.




    My statement which is way back now was nothing more than an off the cuff remark. I didn't aim it at anyone in particular. To get this insulted is taking it a bit far I think. We are all adults here after all.
    But if folks were indeed insulted, then I apologise.

    On the flip side:
    I have had my intelligence and my career decisions questioned directly to me on this thread which i feel is a bit personal but I have not even raised that as it's not really an issue for me, is besides the point and I know for many this is the only way they feel they can win a debate.

    I also personally think its rather ironic that someone who is so happy with excessive violence and bad language is so sensitive to an off the cuff remark.

    Generally speaking, it is in poor taste to be ok with violence. That's general opinion and not just my own.
    To then celebrate the addition of violence as though it automatically improves things, I think says a lot.

    Am I now going to get arguments from people defending violence?

    I would also like to add that If people can't recognize bad anatomy or bad storytelling, it isn't an insult. An opinion can be skewed by an uneducated eye, but still art may be objectively bad, which remains a fact, not an opinion.
    I wasn't pointing my remark at you.....it was a blanket remark to the back and forth that's been going on with some members. It reminds of the whole, my dad's better...no mine is better banter one sees on the playground in grade school. The whole you suck...no you suck....kinda thing going on. I was not offended by anything you've said nor was I directing my statements towards you. As far as balance...I was stating that I hope it's not a one sided bash fest. There are a lot of passionate fans that are very vocal in expressing their dislike of new things. I would hope they don't over power the views of the people that are still buying and enjoying the comic. As I stated I hope the sales numbers speak for themselves as they have been fairly decent. Obviously there are plenty of people out there that like what they are reading and I think their opinions are just as important as those who don't.

  3. #528
    Master of Good Hair Eamon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Dad View Post
    I wasn't pointing my remark at you.....it was a blanket remark to the back and forth that's been going on with some members. It reminds of the whole, my dad's better...no mine is better banter one sees on the playground in grade school. The whole you suck...no you suck....kinda thing going on. I was not offended by anything you've said nor was I directing my statements towards you. As far as balance...I was stating that I hope it's not a one sided bash fest. There are a lot of passionate fans that are very vocal in expressing their dislike of new things. I would hope they don't over power the views of the people that are still buying and enjoying the comic. As I stated I hope the sales numbers speak for themselves as they have been fairly decent. Obviously there are plenty of people out there that like what they are reading and I think their opinions are just as important as those who don't.
    As I was the one who initaited the whole taste angle way back and have since been called to question on it by numberous people, I just assumed you were aiming that at me.
    You say it's not so i will take your word for it.

    I don't see the ones sided bash fest you describe. I think you are exadurating when you say that.

    You are also missing a beat with logic here. If you are enjoying the comic and then that comic is improved, how is that a bad thing for you or anybody else? Improving something makes it better.
    It makes little sense to not want something that is better.
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  4. #529
    Got Filmation? shadowfall1976's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Dad View Post
    I wasn't pointing my remark at you.....it was a blanket remark to the back and forth that's been going on with some members. It reminds of the whole, my dad's better...no mine is better banter one sees on the playground in grade school. The whole you suck...no you suck....kinda thing going on. I was not offended by anything you've said nor was I directing my statements towards you. As far as balance...I was stating that I hope it's not a one sided bash fest. There are a lot of passionate fans that are very vocal in expressing their dislike of new things. I would hope they don't over power the views of the people that are still buying and enjoying the comic. As I stated I hope the sales numbers speak for themselves as they have been fairly decent. Obviously there are plenty of people out there that like what they are reading and I think their opinions are just as important as those who don't.
    Not to argue, but has anyone thought about how many of those sales are from subscriptions that people just can't walk away from? How many just subbed for the exclusive cover? I didn't read the last comics before ordering the new ones, and that is my fault....but I can guarantee you I'll not subscribe to this comic again. I was thinking at least something like 200X at the least, nothing like what we got here. The comics based on the Classics are better thought out, and Scott had a hand in writing those, and I don't care for the bios, but the bios written by an amateur are better to me than these comic books are.
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  5. #530
    Heroic Warrior MAXX's Avatar
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    Oh yes, the "exclusive" foto cover with the toys for a comic that has absolutely nothing to do with them design wise (and a aweful grayskull in the back). Yes, way to go there! Senseless stuff...

    Also sale numbers don't say anything about how people think about the comic. Some people like Eamon mentioned buy comics just for the artist (Jim Lee in his case). But do they like it, don't they like it? Nobody can tell.

  6. #531
    Master of Good Hair Eamon's Avatar
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    I wonder if anybody is buying this for just the art?

    Issue two doesn't even have a MOTU character on the cover. Are we getting another cover with MOTU characters on?
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  7. #532
    SoH Supporter He-Dad's Avatar
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    The DC sub can be canceled. This crossover however was not part of the sub, was it? I'm asking as I never sub to comics, I only buy them from my local comic shop. But if the comic wasas terrible as some are insinuating then the sales numbers would be equally as terrible. Yet its doing fairly well in comparison to the other DC books. As for improving it....well it has improved. Each issue has been better than the previous. However any drastic changes at this point would not be seen as an improvement in my eyes. The writers commited to characterizations and a storyline and I would prefer they stick to it and let the natural progression of the story run its course. I hate when comics switch writers and go in a completely different direction. DC did that with The Dark Knight last year and it kinda turned me off of the comic for a while. I get that the comic is like a living breathing ever changing entity...but it should still have some sort of linear progression and not just take a radical leap in another direction at this point. Art wise...I'm not the biggest fan of many of the redesigns and I have stated that before. I definitely don't buy this for the art alone. I am however a big fan of the story. It is one of the best ongoing stories out there in my opinion. I don't buy a lot of comics....just a select few...at the moment...Thanos Rising, Guardians of the Galaxy, The Dark Knight, The Star Wars, Batman 66, and Morbius.....but this is one of my favs.

  8. #533
    Heroic Warrior wyldman11's Avatar
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    There are many comics companies you can drop a sub, but you have to go through hoops and chances are most don't care to go through them. Also sales are boosted by comic stores who order based on the previous issues numbers, and #1 issues always tend to be high it could be a bunch of blank pages and it would sell well because it's a collectors item that will be worth money*.


    *Only if you go and destroy the 300,000 copies are their ability to retain high rating on a mint scale and somehow at the same point create a need for mint copies. Older comics are kind of in this special situation where people often want the issues with value because they have value.
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  9. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowfall1976 View Post
    Not to argue, but has anyone thought about how many of those sales are from subscriptions that people just can't walk away from?
    I think 0. The sales numbers we see are sales from Diamond Comic Distributers to comic shops. The subs don't go through Diamond.
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    DC, Marvel, MOTU, and TMNT for sale:
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  10. #535
    Got Filmation? shadowfall1976's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAXX View Post
    Oh yes, the "exclusive" foto cover with the toys for a comic that has absolutely nothing to do with them design wise (and a aweful grayskull in the back). Yes, way to go there! Senseless stuff...

    Also sale numbers don't say anything about how people think about the comic. Some people like Eamon mentioned buy comics just for the artist (Jim Lee in his case). But do they like it, don't they like it? Nobody can tell.
    And the cover was what partially misled me, why even do that, when the characters would look nothing like the toys, and the story wasn't Classics based.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eamon View Post
    I wonder if anybody is buying this for just the art?

    Issue two doesn't even have a MOTU character on the cover. Are we getting another cover with MOTU characters on?
    No, not me, I think the MOTU characters don't look right to me, although I do like Wonder Woman....
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  11. #536
    Former fan fic writer Hordak Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eamon View Post
    That is indeed insulting especially as nobody is actually raging here on these boards which i have already pointed out.

    Why are you affording the makers of this comic more chances than others? I would put good money I could go back through your history here or anywhere else and find you dumping on something.
    Unless of course you are getting paid to defend the comic, your whole approach here is very odd indeed....as are others.
    I did used to dump on things quite a bit. But, after I discovered that griping on those things aren't going to make them change, other people on the internet don't give a crap what I have to say about it, and after taking a step back and taking a look at myself to see how completely insane I'd become if I let a TV show, movie or comic book make me raging upset, I decided it had to stop.

    I still hold many of the same opinions on what I used to dump on, I just don't bother to get so emotionally involved in any of it. Truthfully, the same goes with MOTU. Mattel, DC, whoever is in charge of the franchise is going to do what they will with any new interpretations.

    For me, I had two choices. Either enjoy the current interpretation for what it is or not bother with it at all. I chose to enjoy it after reading the first few issues.





    Again, you think me living in a cave. I am well aware of fandom for these brands.
    The fandom for brands like Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. are at a level of what I'd call 'too passionate'. Getting a franchise so involved in their daily lives that they do nothing be eat, drink, sleep, poop the franchise they like and get sooooooo worked up when something doesn't go towards their own personal little vision of it all.

    Fact of the matter is, whoever created these franchises and whatever company controls these franchises can do whatever they want with the franchises. If Disney wants to put Pluto in the new Star Wars movies, they could do it despite the fan outrage.

    Fan opinions may be read or heard, but that doesn't exactly mean the creators or franchise owners are going to completely overhaul something.

    Look at the massive hate for J.J. Abrams Star Trek movies. Tons of Trekkies hate the new movies, yet the movies are still making money and Paramount doesn't seem too quick to change Star Trek back into the hands of Shatner or Stewart anytime soon.






    I am sure you trying to suggest that we are raging and berating fits a certain citeria but it's a false statement.
    Nobody is being like what you describe. I don't think we are allowed to anyways are we? From what I am hearing if anybody is raging and berating, they get an infindgement don't they?!
    Well, I think the infractions more often pertain to if someone is raging or berating a fellow member. I haven't done that lately, did it by accident once when the person I was talking about just happened to be a member on the board and saw my posts. It was about something about the Thundercats soundtrack from the original series and this guy actually posted videos on You Tube with the music on them. I got excited and clicked on the videos and got annoyed the guy kept talking over them the entire time. When I vented my frustration in a Thundercats thread here on the board, the guy happened to see it and we got into a short discharge about it.

    That issue is long since over and I apologized.

    It's still rediculous to suggest that critising something that is not very good is somehow harmful. Unless of course you have never done so which would make you the first person in history never to complain.
    Everyone complains about something. It's human nature but calls for DC to run Giffen and the other writers and artists out of the country on a rail just because the people don't like a comic book is a little extreme.


    Now we are DC book haters. Ok.
    Are sales of this comic book spiking? I would like you to provide proof. I am open to being educated on this specifically as I don't watch the sale numbers.
    These comics are created well in advance so if there was any change we would not see it for a while would we?!
    The sales figures for the new DC MOTU book have been posted all over these boards before. They are pretty high, even if they aren't the number one comic book in the history of all the cosmos.




    Are you being serious? I think you are the one living in a cave. That whole fans saving the line passed you buy then?
    Or are you just now arguing for the sake of it? You wouldn't be the first.
    Not arguing, just wondering when the line was in such dire straights. I also don't read every thread on this message board, just the ones that peak my interests. And, considering I don't buy and don't follow the MOTUC line of figures in any way beyond maybe seeing pics in the Comic Con galleries over on ENI I wouldn't know if it was dying or not.



    No that's totally incorrect. Mattel needed storage space and these are the ones left behind. According to Toy Guru MOTUC will no longer appear in Big Lots after these ones are gone as they produced less figures.
    A good thing I didn't decide to try to go to the out of the way Big Lots and see if I could find some figures. At $10 a figure, I'd buy some MOTUC. I've never said the figures don't look cool, I just won't deal with the hassles of trying to buy them online and the prices are more than I'd pay for an action figure. The figures that used to be called DC Universe Classics, now re-named to something like 'DC Unlimited' or something, are at the prices I will pay and have the detail I need.



    Lectures tend to work better when the lecturer knows more than the student.
    That sounds like a veiled insult to me. I'm a passive MOTU fan to the extent that I like MOTU but don't follow every little soundbite or article about the franchise and don't feel I need to in order to enjoy what I do out of it.




    And to the gentleman who was responding to me earlier about the new DC canon trying to build a new world of MOTU for the continuity of their comics. I was under the assumption the MOTU digital one shots series of books and the 'Origins' special issues were supposed to fulfill that need to tell stories of who the characters are in this version of MOTU. I mean, it's far better than spending a gazillion issues of the main book telling the story of how Adam became He-Man, how Man-At-Arms got his armor, Mekaneck got his neck, etc.

    To be truthful, I hate long drawn out origin stories. I tend to like to find out about characters and how they started out along the way of a story.

    As for Teela's personality in this canon, well not sure why she is written the way she is. Ask the writers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowfall1976 View Post
    And the cover was what partially misled me, why even do that, when the characters would look nothing like the toys, and the story wasn't Classics based.
    I will agree the photo covers of the action figures did look kind of stupid and served no purpose. It was more an attempt to appeal to collectors who like collecting different versions of the same book if they have different covers on them.
    Last edited by Hordak Alpha; September 10, 2013 at 07:53pm.
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  12. #537
    Master of Good Hair Eamon's Avatar
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    You seem to be contradicting yourself Hordak Alpha and your also once again (maybe it's deliberate) misquoting me or trying to twist what I say.
    Which I think is a rather underhanded tactic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hordak Alpha View Post
    Everyone complains about something. It's human nature but calls for DC to run Giffen and the other writers and artists out of the country on a rail just because the people don't like a comic book is a little extreme.
    I never called them anything or suggested we run anybody out of the country. Where did I even suggest such a thing? You quoted me so you are therefore suggesting that it's me saying that and I never did say that. Suggesting I said that which you did by quoting me is a just a bare faced lie.

    You are trying to make our comments far worse than they are.

    You don't buy the toys and generally seem to have little knowledge of what's going on so I feel debating with you is a waste of my time.

    I also very much call into question this thing of not complaining about the comic or anything to do with MOTU.
    MOTU exist only because we buy it. We pay for it.
    To ask folks to not complain or to try to spin it like complaining is somehow harmful just totally the wrong thing to do and very suspecious be it on a forum or anywhere esle. Who are you to tell us we shouldn't complain?


    It's our right as consumers to complain if something is not the standard we expect and pay for. This comic book is not the standard we want in a MOTU comic.
    Saying such a thing does not harm anyone despite the amount of times people on this tread try to spin it like it does.
    Last edited by Eamon; September 12, 2013 at 02:56pm.
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  13. #538
    Heroic Warrior Lord Hordak's Avatar
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    I like the comic and want more!!!!
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  14. #539
    Former fan fic writer Hordak Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eamon View Post
    You seem to be contradicting yourself Hordak Alpha and your also once again (maybe it's deliberate) misquoting me or trying to twist what I say.
    Which I think is a rather underhanded tactic.
    What?!



    I never called them anything or suggested we run anybody out of the country. Where did I even suggest such a thing? You quoted me so you are therefore suggesting that it's me saying that and I never did say that. Suggesting I said that which you did by quoting me is a just a bare faced lie.
    Good grief, I didn't say YOU said those things. Other fans who hate the comic have said things close to that. You know, "Giffen needs to be fired by DC" type of comments. Where the hell did you get the idea I was saying that YOU directly said that?!




    You don't buy the toys and generally seem to have little knowledge of what's going on so I feel debating with you is a waste of my time.
    Something we can agree upon for once. The 'waste of time' part. Also, I do buy MOTU, just not the new stuff. I score vintage stuff all of the time. Not to say I wouldn't like some of the new merchandise, just the prices and online availability only(which means a shipping price tacked onto the price of the merchandise) puts me off. However, not going to catch me constantly saying negative about it somewhere since it yields no fruitful change.

    I also very much call into question this thing of not complaining about the comic or anything to do with MOTU.
    MOTU exist only because we buy it. We pay for it.
    To ask folks to not complain or to try to spin it like complaining is somehow harmful just totally the wrong thing to do and very suspecious be it on a forum or anywhere esle. Who are you to tell us we shouldn't complain?
    I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I'm trying to point out how silly it is for people to get uber worked up about a comic book. It's a comic book. A person either likes it or hates it. Spending an entire thread listing off the reasons why a person hates something is pretty silly when there are far worse things in life to honestly hate.


    It's our right as consumers to complain if something is not the standard we expect and pay for. This comic book is not the standard we want in a MOTU comic.
    Saying such a thing does not harm anyone despite the amount of times people on this tread try to spin it like it does.
    Then the sensible person wouldn't buy something that isn't worth their money. Boycotts and petitions aimed at a company is just silly. "If we get a thousand signatures, we can send Mattel a big message." Sure, Mattel is quaking in their boots when they have tons of other customers who will still help them make the profit they want.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Hordak View Post
    I like the comic and want more!!!!
    As do I. I think what we've gotten so far has been pretty good. Something new for MOTU instead of just another re-tread of the vintage days. The vintage days were great and set up MOTU, but for a franchise to move onwards it sometimes needs an injection of something new from time to time otherwise it can get stale.
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  15. #540
    Heroic Warrior Jinxieman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Hordak View Post
    I like the comic and want more!!!!
    I liked it too...quite a bit!

    I think all the negativity spewed out about it prior to me reading it helped me because I expected it to be terrible, but I liked the way it tied into the current storyline. I loved that it brought Marlana into it and bridged Earth and Etheria.

    Overall I'm also enjoying the re-design. I like how the looks of the characters have evolved from the starter mini-series. At first I was a little put off, but what I'm seeing is a gradual return to the standard look for some if the characters. Not necessarily the main characters but look at Mekaneck and other secondary characters. There are also design elements in the new designs that are familiar, like the nods to Man at Arms armor in Teela's new armor.

    I think as the series progresses we will see a return to a more traditional look...and if not, I like the new.

  16. #541
    Heroic Warrior Krueger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Hordak View Post
    I like the comic and want more!!!!
    That's a funny post, considering what this thread seems to have become.

  17. #542
    Master of Good Hair Eamon's Avatar
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    Hordak Alpha :
    If you quote me and then say something after it, I am of course going to feel you are referring to what I am talking about.

    Maybe I missed it but I haven't see anybody say we should boycott the comic and petition Mattel like your are suggesting some are.

    I am only discussing what I and many others find not good about the comic. You and a few others just seem hell bent on exaggerating everything.
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  18. #543
    Argenternian heavy-eternium's Avatar
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    If these comics generate all these feelings, I want not to imagine if one day the movie is confirmed and start to reveal news ,pictures and stuff, "that's not motu", "blasphemy". It will be very funny and I'm not going to miss it Lol.
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  19. #544
    Heroic Warrior Krueger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heavy-eternium View Post
    If these comics generate all these feelings, I want not to imagine if one day the movie is confirmed and start to reveal news ,pictures and stuff, "that's not motu", "blasphemy". It will be very funny and I'm not going to miss it Lol.
    Oh, this place will be a madhouse. It will be fun. The reactions to these comics will be a walk-in-the-park compare to the reactions to a new movie.

  20. #545
    CRITAcal for MOTUC 2015!! Barezz's Avatar
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    I have just hit the point where I will not buy the comic. I just do not care for enough of it. I hate the writing, especially Teela. I am not wild about the dialogue. I do not really like the New 52 character redesigns either. I like aspects of the Despara story... But not enough to patronize the thing. I made they mistake of getting issue 5 because I liked the Shadow Weaver and Adora part, but like an idiot I foolishly did not read to the end where Teela once again makes it terrible. And I have zero interest in a New 52 DC crossover.

    I wish that leaving feedback and criticism felt like it could yield change, but after months of the same complaints I do not see it happening. So I vote with my wallet. Sadly, I imagine that if the comic is cancelled the "reason" will be that there is "not a market" for a MOTU comic, as opposed to looking at the quality and creative aspects that people found distasteful. Regardless, I cannot buy crap merely to support a MOTU comic existing.
    It is spelled "Crita", not "Critta". Misspell her name and Crita will knock the "T" out of you!

    Also...get her into the line!

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  21. #546
    For Hordak. To the death. lorde trooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Hordak View Post
    I like the comic and want more!!!!
    Im the same, i liked issue 5, some of the directions im seeing is a little different to what id want to see but its getting better. Personally id rather see MVCreations doing the comics if only this could be.
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  22. #547
    Former fan fic writer Hordak Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eamon View Post
    Hordak Alpha :
    If you quote me and then say something after it, I am of course going to feel you are referring to what I am talking about.

    Maybe I missed it but I haven't see anybody say we should boycott the comic and petition Mattel like your are suggesting some are.

    I am only discussing what I and many others find not good about the comic. You and a few others just seem hell bent on exaggerating everything.
    Whatever, dude. This is why I normally try not to waste my time discussing the new comic with the cemented, unbudging old school fans.


    If these comics generate all these feelings, I want not to imagine if one day the movie is confirmed and start to reveal news ,pictures and stuff, "that's not motu", "blasphemy". It will be very funny and I'm not going to miss it Lol.
    I'm sure an MOTU movie would generate exactly the nonsense you mention. That is what it is. The fan fervor. The debates on what should be MOTU and what shouldn't be MOTU. Nonsense.

    I wish that leaving feedback and criticism felt like it could yield change, but after months of the same complaints I do not see it happening. So I vote with my wallet. Sadly, I imagine that if the comic is cancelled the "reason" will be that there is "not a market" for a MOTU comic, as opposed to looking at the quality and creative aspects that people found distasteful. Regardless, I cannot buy crap merely to support a MOTU comic existing.
    A very sound decision. The feedback and criticism have never worked when it came to Star Wars or Star Trek and doesn't work with MOTU merely because these franchises are owned by big named companies and they are going to turn a profit no matter what, even if old school fans turn their backs on the franchise. The profit is going to come from new fans who have been won over by whatever new incarnation of the franchise the company has made.


    Getting all worked up about a comic book or movie just isn't good for a person at all. Trust me, I used to get in a rage about franchises I liked that thought were being done wrong and all it got me was a headache over nothing.
    (Hordak Alpha))

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  23. #548
    Evil Warrior jibernish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heavy-eternium View Post
    If these comics generate all these feelings, I want not to imagine if one day the movie is confirmed and start to reveal news ,pictures and stuff, "that's not motu", "blasphemy". It will be very funny and I'm not going to miss it Lol.
    There's so much money put into making a movie... there's no doubt that the money men will be all over it, focus grouping this, lowest-common denominatoring that... and with Mattel's lack of a consistent, strong vision, I fear what will come.

    I think I need to enroll in anger management classes now so that I'm ready when it comes

    But the boards will be fun!

  24. #549
    Master of Good Hair Eamon's Avatar
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    Reading some folks posts I feel some are still missing a few points.

    Aside from the fact that being pretty good is highly questionable, again, folks are happy we're getting something new replacing MOTU. What we're reading are not MOTU stories and MOTU characters.
    They are something else, so it begs the question if people who are happy for this direction even like MOTU in the first place?!
    In my opinion thinking that something more faithful would automatically get stale is just silly and hence my question above.
    A very good writer can do wonder with material that has so much potential very far from being explored yet. And there flippen loads to explore.
    Also, once again, injecting something new only works if the "new" is of a good quality. It won't work just because it's new. It has to be good. Good ideas, good writing, good art. So far we got a lot of new, which is just that: new. And it seem nothing much else.



    Quote Originally Posted by Hordak Alpha View Post
    Whatever, dude. This is why I normally try not to waste my time discussing the new comic with the cemented, unbudging old school fans.
    You shouldn't anyway as all you seem to do make stuff up. And you don't discuss, you lecture...rather badly I might add as you don't seem clued up on many things.

    Anybody reading my posts wouldn't say I am cemented, unbudging old school fan at all. Just another one of your many exadurations to serve whatever little weird agenda you are on.
    Last edited by Eamon; September 14, 2013 at 11:50am.
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  25. #550
    Council Elder Tallstar's Avatar
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