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Thread: 4 horseman continuity with sculpting?

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    Heroic Warrior vid.tracey's Avatar
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    4 horseman continuity with sculpting?

    Whilst checking out the reviews for NA he-man, overall I thought it was an excellent figure, I couldn't help but think there was something a bit off regarding the sculpt of the face and hands. Having looked at my other figures, I can see that it must be the same horseman that sculpted jitsu, Marlena and probably a few others.

    My problem is its clear another horseman did the face sculpts earlier in the line as the newer ones seem more thin and small compared to the more natural, round faces earlier.

    Going forward, I think it would be better for consistency that only one horseman does the face sculpts so they have a shared look, rather than having different looks. Does anyone else agree?
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    I like the variety. We're already buying what are essentially the same few action figures over and over, month after month, with different armor and heads. The ladies' face sculpts are always great, but they are all very similiar-- classically beautiful. Marlena's has some character to it. Same goes for Jitsu. He looks grizzled. I even like the more cartoony interpretations (clawful). One of my most anticipated characters is Plundor, though I know I'm in the minority on that one.

    Just my two cents. I can understand a desire for consistence as well. It drives me nuts that many of the most beloved characters suffer from design flaws because they came out earlier in the line. The
    weak ankles, bobble heads, reversed fore-arms and stiffer clothes and loin clothes that hindered articulation---while newer, more obscure characters have zero QC issues (FFM!). It also still bugs me that
    girls don't get an ab crunch. Females can bend at the waste-- that's not just a guy thing!

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    Got Filmation? shadowfall1976's Avatar
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    This is stupid to me as well, I think He-Man should be consistently sculpted as He-Man with the same exact face sculpt, I mean fat, skinny, in between your face unless your an alcoholic or on drugs will predominately stay the same your whole adult life....

    All the previous He-Man heads (even Adams) are the same, even the PD He-Man, and he's wearing a mask....and here we have 2 newer He-Man figures that don't share the same feel, and are supposed to be the same guy.

    And in my opinion whoever the "5th" Horseman is that they let sculpt....they should stop it.... Fisto's head (and maybe Bow) is the best thing he's done, and even that has issues I can't unsee (his sunken in eye sockets with what looks like bug eyes on top of them), and I actually like Fisto's head. Jitsu's head is too small, jawline too big, NA He-Man's head is not right, Icarius looks too much like Val Kilmer.

    And don't get me started on the hands....Bow's and NA He-Man's....I hate those huge ass HULK SMASH hands on He-Man, they're disproportionate and are too big for the figure, and sadly Whichever He-Man figures come after I know will likely get those stupid things....which will make me dislike the figures. I don't know who sculpted the hands, but I doubt it was the same regular Horsemen that did the original hands, because they are all proportionate and look well done.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gnarliehog View Post
    I like the variety. We're already buying what are essentially the same few action figures over and over, month after month, with different armor and heads. The ladies' face sculpts are always great, but they are all very similiar-- classically beautiful. Marlena's has some character to it. Same goes for Jitsu. He looks grizzled. I even like the more cartoony interpretations (clawful). One of my most anticipated characters is Plundor, though I know I'm in the minority on that one.

    Just my two cents. I can understand a desire for consistence as well. It drives me nuts that many of the most beloved characters suffer from design flaws because they came out earlier in the line. The
    weak ankles, bobble heads, reversed fore-arms and stiffer clothes and loin clothes that hindered articulation---while newer, more obscure characters have zero QC issues (FFM!). It also still bugs me that
    girls don't get an ab crunch. Females can bend at the waste-- that's not just a guy thing!
    I don't think the Females look that much alike at all, Maybe Marlena & Catra more so than anyone else. My biggest gripe is that other than her white Frosta is perfect, she even has brand new thighs that have a butt sculpted on them, yet.....we still have the same old ass thighs for everyone else....TOD Sorceress, Netossa....etc, and they are still using the stupid lame ass non articulated ones on newer figures, even though they "corrected" it for TOD Sorceress, they went right back ahead and used them on Sherrilyn....very stupid, and very inconsistent. They need new thighs, and to make the Women correctly....Ab crunches would be nice for once, the Females always appear very stiff and often seem unposable. Plus the new Females are still very plagued by weak joint issues and Bobble heads, even though they are using new neck pegs....Sherrilyn has a very bad bobble head, and her arm joints are somewhat loose....yet 9/10 of the new Males are coming out nice and tight....ummm, I see issues here and a trend that's never been fixed.

    I know many of these issues are not the Horsemen, but a crap ass design team within Mattel....Who's biggest mistakes so far has been intentionally swapping Stinkor's forearms & doing what they did to Sorceress when there were other things they could have done (such as treat Sorceress' wings like a cape, and fix it like they did Shadow Weaver's cape....hmmm, hers worked....her wings are not wings as her Human form, it's more a cape that's attached at her shoulders all the way down to her wrists, and doing so i the figure with a softer material would have resulted in a perfect Sorceress, well that an actually being sculpted with an ass and the proper thighs.

    They sculpted Frosta with a proper butt through the thighs and her outfit....yet no one since her has been sculpted the same....I think the biggest Horsemen inconsistency is their lack of doing the female correctly, and varying from lady to lady how they do it....Despite Frosta's design flaws (Mattel did to her) she has the best and most correct figure of the Females.....while BG Teela has the worst IMO....and yet instead of continuing what they did with Frosta, they continue to sculpt the women like the line just started, and sculpt with the same old ass parts....Guys....sculpt the damn Women some new thighs....
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    NA mini-sub Supporter ! Arkangel's Avatar
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    I'm not sure this is an artist fault, when you check the prototypes, everything looks nifty and fine.

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    Heroic Master of Maturity SCB's Avatar
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    Yeah I think the head shrunk during production.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SCB View Post
    Yeah I think the head shrunk during production.
    That's somewhat the excuse they used for the original Ken doll....
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    Gimme Granita! Scorpia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arkangel View Post
    I'm not sure this is an artist fault, when you check the prototypes, everything looks nifty and fine.
    Agreed. The problems come when Mattel design/assembly get their hands on them. The Four Horsemen are the best contributors to the line IMO - just imagine what we'd get if *their* sculpts were off!
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    eyecandy from outerspace JoeyCruel's Avatar
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    Another "problem" for me it's the fact that the sculpts for the faces are too different... they have to decide between extra reality or extra toysh look...
    Just compare the head of Duncan and the head of Jitsu. They got the same age but they look so different... If you look at the Jitsu head from Kosse, you can see how the style is similar the Duncan.
    I don't care if a head is similar to the toy, I care about the coherence with the 2008/2009/2010 releases!
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    I agree, that a few heads, like Jitsu and NA He-Man look off due different reasons. Mostly the human characters are more difficult to sculpt, Inwonder how Ninjor will look like in comparison to Jitsu?

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    Heroic Warrior sirsniffy's Avatar
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    I agree that NA He-Man's face turned out awful, but overall, I would say I like the variety in faces of the 4H. I love most of the females, oddly enough Frosta is one that I have a huge issue with...she's just ugly IMO...she looks like she is being choked (bulging eyes, pucker lips, etc).

    And there is nothing wrong with the 4H sculpts, and the prototypes look great, it's when the design team takes over that stuff changes radically. I also notice that whenever characters have their skin color painted on, they tend to look rounder and smoother versus when they reproduce the faces using that slick, flesh colored, wholly unpainted plastic (She-Ra, BG Teela, Frosta, etc).

  11. #11
    Heroic Warrior snakeeyes0217's Avatar
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    I agree, consistency is a key factor in any great figure line.

    I'd like to have Marzo in my collection but I don't because the head/hair is too exaggerated/stylized despite the consistent proportions.

    Jitsu's head is too exaggerated AND too small but he's such a core character, I can't not have him in the collection. (Working on a custom solution to this.)

    King He-Man's head is so small and doesn't resemble He-Man so much so that I replaced it. (And most if his body...check the blog soon to see what I did.)

    Now, there is so much that I love about this NA He-Man but his head being slightly too small keeps him at "great" and prevents him from being "fantastic." And yes, I wish the facial features more closely resembled the original sculpt, but in this case I don't mind it as much because unlike King He-Man, it has expression.

    The size/stylization is due to the sculptor, and if he/she is truly a pro, there's no reason he/she can't more closely match the original size and likenesses. (They take original cast parts and sculpt on top of them to make new parts all the time to save time and money.) In this case they need to check their artistic license at the door (as all of us artists must) when they are doing work for hire in a line that has an established style.

    (FYI, in a previous Ask Matty, I asked if Jitsu's head suffered from production shrink and Scott said "no.")
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    Heroic Warrior cobrakahn's Avatar
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    It could be way worse. I know this is supposed to be a high end collector line but lets face it. Mattel treats the property like it would any other brand. Also all the MYP figures are a little off too. When you start comparing Chief Carnivorous to Claw full Gygor to Slush Head we are talking different styles.

    But on a case to case situation I am glad they made the decisions they did. I would hate a ultra realistic Clawful and I would have no clue if they tried to put Chief Carnivorous or Count Marzo in the time machine.

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    I'm Anime Hyper-Detailed Battle_Brak's Avatar
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    I pretty much wish all of the heads were sculpted by the "5th Horsemen." They definitely have more realism and character than the more toy-like heads that came earlier in the line. Crooked jaw aside I think the NA He-Man head sculpt is superior to the other three. It feels more natural, is more appropriately proportioned (if these are indeed larger than life warriors in the six inch scale as Matty claim), and just looks more like the classic toy face. Also, one of the Horsemen (and not to bash because they are all extremely talented sculptors) has a tendency to sculpt very flat and unnatural faces. It's most noticeable on the females, and it's always bothered me. I know a lot of people hate the Frosta face, and I can see where they are coming from, but it at least has some curvature, dimension, and character to it.
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    Got Filmation? shadowfall1976's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Battle_Brak View Post
    I pretty much wish all of the heads were sculpted by the "5th Horsemen." They definitely have more realism and character than the more toy-like heads that came earlier in the line. Crooked jaw aside I think the NA He-Man head sculpt is superior to the other three. It feels more natural, is more appropriately proportioned (if these are indeed larger than life warriors in the six inch scale as Matty claim), and just looks more like the classic toy face. Also, one of the Horsemen (and not to bash because they are all extremely talented sculptors) has a tendency to sculpt very flat and unnatural faces. It's most noticeable on the females, and it's always bothered me. I know a lot of people hate the Frosta face, and I can see where they are coming from, but it at least has some curvature, dimension, and character to it.
    If all the heads were sculpted by that 5th guy, I wouldn't be in this line, I don't like but one of them, and I still feel it's very off looking....I like the heads that 9/10 of the line has, a good mix between toyish and real....these other couple heads looks too off, I don't like the hyper detail that these heads have compared to the rest, the sculpting needs to be left to the regular Horsemen....

    I'm also sure this guy is responsible for the huge ass new hands that Bow and NA He-Man have.....I really don't like them one bit.
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    Heroic Warrior nicholighkun's Avatar
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    I agree to a lesser extent with the head sculpts, but I do agree. The hands are what really get to me. Each finger is exactly the same size. Uuuum, that's anatomy 101, each finger is a differing length than the others. The freaking pinky is as big as the middle finger for craps sake. If they re-use this hand in the future I'll be pretty upset.

  16. #16
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    Heroic Warrior Pegasuslb's Avatar
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    Amen brother.

    Quote Originally Posted by shadowfall1976 View Post
    If all the heads were sculpted by that 5th guy, I wouldn't be in this line, I don't like but one of them, and I still feel it's very off looking....I like the heads that 9/10 of the line has, a good mix between toyish and real....these other couple heads looks too off, I don't like the hyper detail that these heads have compared to the rest, the sculpting needs to be left to the regular Horsemen....

    I'm also sure this guy is responsible for the huge ass new hands that Bow and NA He-Man have.....I really don't like them one bit.
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    Heroic Warrior King Criss79's Avatar
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    We've touched on this issue before and It's the human headsculpts that lack continuity.I like the 5th horsemans work but the details and expressions he sculpts don't blend with the monsters,robots we have in this line.Doesn't bother me as much as long as the 5th horseman continues the human sculpts going forward.

  19. #19
    I'm Anime Hyper-Detailed Battle_Brak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowfall1976 View Post
    If all the heads were sculpted by that 5th guy, I wouldn't be in this line, I don't like but one of them, and I still feel it's very off looking....I like the heads that 9/10 of the line has, a good mix between toyish and real....these other couple heads looks too off, I don't like the hyper detail that these heads have compared to the rest, the sculpting needs to be left to the regular Horsemen....

    I'm also sure this guy is responsible for the huge ass new hands that Bow and NA He-Man have.....I really don't like them one bit.
    Well different people have different tastes. Having seen a number of your posts, you and I are probably at opposite extremes on the spectrum of MOTU fandom. Plus I'm kind of a detail oriented artist. I like detail, I like realism, but I can tolerate interesting stylization as well, though I know that's all subjective. You said the heads have a good mix of real and toyish, and I see what you mean, but to me a good mix is as real and or detailed as possible to as little toy-like as possible (given that it IS a toy ). So the doll faces certain characters have really don't work for me, and the flat faced large chinned females just look wrong. Then again it's just one thing on a long list of things I would change about the aesthetic of this line. I love having all the characters in one line and one coherent look, but the look they chose is just not my ideal I guess.

    Oh and I agree the hands are awkward on Bow and NA He-Man. they are a bit too big and far too blocky. There are also a few characters that have really short thumbs although I can't remember which ones at the moment.
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    Got Filmation? shadowfall1976's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Criss79 View Post
    We've touched on this issue before and It's the human headsculpts that lack continuity.I like the 5th horsemans work but the details and expressions he sculpts don't blend with the monsters,robots we have in this line.Doesn't bother me as much as long as the 5th horseman continues the human sculpts going forward.
    The sheer fact that he's only done a few compared to the hundred + figures in this line....I would say, I hope his head sculpt work remains limited. The rest of the 99% of head sculpts in the line are consistent, so I'd hate to see all his work going forward....a few here and there are acceptable, but not what I want to see as norm. The rest of the Human heads are pretty consistent with one another, in both shape and size....Every Human figure I own aside from Fisto & Jitsu (these are the only 2 figures with 5th Horseman heads I own) are pretty consistent....I know the heads that aren't are like Marzo, Jitsu, Icarius, Bow, Fisto & King He-Man....and now NA He-Man.... aside from that the rest are pretty much symmetrical and properly sized, hell even Keldor & Sy-Klone have proper sized and sculpted heads.

    The heads he's done are smaller, and look deformed at times, and Jitsu & NA He-Man both have something seriously wrong in the jawline dept.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Battle_Brak View Post
    Well different people have different tastes. Having seen a number of your posts, you and I are probably at opposite extremes on the spectrum of MOTU fandom. Plus I'm kind of a detail oriented artist. I like detail, I like realism, but I can tolerate interesting stylization as well, though I know that's all subjective. You said the heads have a good mix of real and toyish, and I see what you mean, but to me a good mix is as real and or detailed as possible to as little toy-like as possible (given that it IS a toy ). So the doll faces certain characters have really don't work for me, and the flat faced large chinned females just look wrong. Then again it's just one thing on a long list of things I would change about the aesthetic of this line. I love having all the characters in one line and one coherent look, but the look they chose is just not my ideal I guess.

    Oh and I agree the hands are awkward on Bow and NA He-Man. they are a bit too big and far too blocky. There are also a few characters that have really short thumbs although I can't remember which ones at the moment.
    I like detail and realism as much as the next guy, but when (OK, I'll say now) 98% of the line is one way, and we get a small percentage of figures with too much detail over the rest of them, it looks inconsistent and off. That's what I'm saying....and while it seems both Mattel and the 4H can't seem to grasp the Female body for whatever reason, I find most of the Females still decent looking, despite their shortcomings. Yeah, they do have somewhat flat faces, I notices this mostly on She-Ra, But Frosta, Sorceress & Teela I can live with.

    And maybe, just maybe, they are somehow related to Jay Leno....

    I like the look that pretty much 98% of the line has, and not so much the other 2%, so I'm happy with the line as is, I just don't want to see the 2% become normal, since the vast majority of the
    line since 2008 has already been one way. A serious change in aesthetics in the line at this point would not be a good thing, and would most certainly turn me off from it. I'm into this line only because of the Vintage looking aesthetics of mostly all of the line.

    And yes, I really don't like the hands.

    I'm not knocking your opinion, I'm just saying that what I want to see in the line, is what it's been since inception, I don't want to see a massive spike in appearance change, not that there has been one, or will be.
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  21. #21
    Evil Collapsing Robot! Zodach's Avatar
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    What I don't like about the NA He-man head is the ****-eyed jawline. This is not a sculpting issue but a molding issue. I wish they could have fixed it.

  22. #22
    I'm Anime Hyper-Detailed Battle_Brak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowfall1976 View Post
    I'm not knocking your opinion, I'm just saying that what I want to see in the line, is what it's been since inception, I don't want to see a massive spike in appearance change, not that there has been one, or will be.
    I understand. I've warmed up to the line quite a bit since it came out. If you see some of my posts when it was first revealed I was absolutely disgusted with the aesthetic of this line. I probably swore I'd never pay a cent for this garbage or some other hyperbole . If King Grayskull hadn't been the first figure (and was the only figure I bought up until He-Ro was revealed) they probably wouldn't have hooked me.
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  23. #23
    Heroic Warrior King Criss79's Avatar
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    You're right Shadowfall.The. 5th horsemans work is very minimal in this line.It just appears to me the direction they are going with the human headsculpts are geared towards him.It sucks for those that don't care for his style,but it wouldn't surprise me if you saw a lot more of his work going forward.
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  24. #24
    Got Filmation? shadowfall1976's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Criss79 View Post
    You're right Shadowfall.The. 5th horsemans work is very minimal in this line.It just appears to me the direction they are going with the human headsculpts are geared towards him.It sucks for those that don't care for his style,but it wouldn't surprise me if all you saw was his work going forward.
    He's only done a few, it's not even been confirmed that he did the NA He-Man head....that head is more a design flaw than the sculpt....the helmeted head looks fine. Plus I don't believe he did King He-Man, so I really don't see a trend of him doing all the Human heads....yet. But if he does, I will surely not be happy.

    Clamp Champ looks fine, and not like his work either, it's a little detailed more than a few, but looks decent, and honestly, no more detailed than say He-Man or Frosta. Also, the Females are not his work, nor does it look as if he sculpted Dawg-O-Tor either....

    I just don't like his style, and all I own so far of his is Jitsu & Fisto, and I like Fisto more, but I'd like it a bit less....and Jitsu I'm not enthused about, but can live with. But I don't want the NA He-Man at all, and the new head, and hands make him even much less desirable than I previously thought.
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  25. #25
    I'm Anime Hyper-Detailed Battle_Brak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowfall1976 View Post
    Clamp Champ looks fine, and not like his work either, it's a little detailed more than a few, but looks decent, and honestly, no more detailed than say He-Man or Frosta. Also, the Females are not his work, nor does it look as if he sculpted Dawg-O-Tor either....
    It was stated somewhere that he sculpted Frosta and I'm fairly certain he did Clamp Champ as well.
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