Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 81

Thread: THE JOKER film origin story...with Scorsese producing?! Are you kidding?!!!

  1. #1
    Master of New Adventures!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    9,157

    THE JOKER film origin story...with Scorsese producing?! Are you kidding?!!!

    While I would have preferred Scorsese directing, I'm still dying here! What a concept! CAN'T WAIT!!!

    And yeah, I get that he's old, but I'd give two fingers on my right hand for Nicholson to be The Joker!

    https://www.yahoo.com/movies/joker-o...221556516.html
    Last edited by Heeeere's Olesker!; August 22, 2017 at 08:27pm.

  2. #2
    Heroic Warrior
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    6,861
    Sorry but NO

    This must NOT happen

    The Joker works best when he doesn't have an origin story. When he just...is.

  3. #3
    Master of DVDs BCI Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    6,432
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfsfang View Post
    Sorry but NO

    This must NOT happen

    The Joker works best when he doesn't have an origin story. When he just...is.
    Agreed.

    The most interesting thing about the Joker is we have no idea who he actually is.

  4. #4
    Heroic Warrior
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Des Moines IA
    Posts
    3,673
    agree with two previous comments.

  5. #5
    Hexcellent Horror Hostess
    Penny Dreadful's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Massachusetts, US
    Posts
    4,270
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfsfang View Post

    The Joker works best when he doesn't have an origin story. When he just...is.
    Agreed.

    I love 'The Killing Joke,' but even there Joker says: "If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"
    Last edited by Penny Dreadful; August 22, 2017 at 09:55pm.
    PENNY DREADFUL'S SHILLING SHOCKERS
    Weekly hosted horror, sci-fi, suspense, and fantasy films!
    On television scare-waves throughout Haunted New England


    OFFICIAL WEBSITE
    http://www.shillingshockers.com

  6. #6
    Master of New Adventures!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    9,157
    Would you have preferred Superman to just show up and cross swords with Lex with no explanation of who he really is? The Krypton and Fortress of Solitude scenes scenes where we get to know Kal-el's family and who he is were among my favorite part of Superman. Rocky Balboa's life before Apollo Creed tapped him was essential in understanding Rocky's motivation and essence. Would it have been better to just have Spidey burst onto the scene and do battle the Green Goblin or did understanding Peter Parker's angst and his relationship with Norman Osborn make him i to a three dimensional character for viewers?

    Imo, great villains deserve no less of a reveal.

    As for The Joker, my inquiring mind wants to know 'why'

    Minimum half a billion in worldwide box office.
    Last edited by Heeeere's Olesker!; August 22, 2017 at 10:15pm.

  7. #7
    Heroic Warrior
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    6,861
    Origins suit all of those characters tho as knowing their backstories gives you a better understanding of the character.

    An origin does not suit the Joker.

    He works best as an unknowable force of chaos. Someone who just exists to spread chaos without rhyme or reason.

    If you know where he comes from then you will begin to understand him.

    If you begin to understand the Joker then he will lose a major part of what makes him popular.

  8. #8
    Heroic Warrior DC_WARLORD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Skartaris, Inner Earth
    Posts
    2,303
    At this point, I'm pretty tired of the JOKER. He's almost as overexposed as BATMAN is. I'm not really sure I get what DC is doing here. They don't want it to 'feel like a DC movie'? Jeez....DC isn't even really sure what they're doing yet. They've had exactly 1 hit with WONDER WOMAN. They're trying to move away from darkness and be lighter, so they start off with a movie about a vicious, unpredictable, murderous psychopath?
    Last edited by DC_WARLORD; August 22, 2017 at 11:02pm.
    Odd Man Out

  9. #9
    Master of DVDs BCI Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    6,432
    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Would you have preferred Superman to just show up and cross swords with Lex with no explanation of who he really is? The Krypton and Fortress of Solitude scenes scenes where we get to know Kal-el's family and who he is were among my favorite part of Superman. Rocky Balboa's life before Apollo Creed tapped him was essential in understanding Rocky's motivation and essence. Would it have been better to just have Spidey burst onto the scene and do battle the Green Goblin or did understanding Peter Parker's angst and his relationship with Norman Osborn make him i to a three dimensional character for viewers?

    Imo, great villains deserve no less of a reveal.

    As for The Joker, my inquiring mind wants to know 'why'

    Minimum half a billion in worldwide box office.
    I'm surprised by your take on this Jack.

    You're not the type to paint all characters with the same brush.

    No one is saying every character should be an enigma, but sometimes its better not to see the man behind the curtain.

    Wolverine became a vastly less interesting character when he was given a proper origin.

    The Star Wars prequel trilogy damn near ruined one of my favorite villains of all-time. How could that whiny little brat turn into one of the greatest villains ever?

    Would the "Man With No Name" trilogy be better films if we knew more about Eastwood's character?

    The only thing an origin does for the Joker is humanizes him. The Joker should just exist as the Joker.

  10. #10
    Master of New Adventures!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    9,157
    You broke my heart.

    Quote Originally Posted by BCI Guy View Post
    I'm surprised by your take on this Jack.

    You're not the type to paint all characters with the same brush.

    No one is saying every character should be an enigma, but sometimes its better not to see the man behind the curtain.

    Wolverine became a vastly less interesting character when he was given a proper origin.

    The Star Wars prequel trilogy damn near ruined one of my favorite villains of all-time. How could that whiny little brat turn into one of the greatest villains ever?

    Would the "Man With No Name" trilogy be better films if we knew more about Eastwood's character?

    The only thing an origin does for the Joker is humanizes him. The Joker should just exist as the Joker.

  11. #11
    Clown Prince of Darkness Benedict Judas Hel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    The Ninth Level of Hell plotting my slow and painful revenge on the brightly sunlit world...
    Posts
    12,535
    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    You broke my heart.
    "Wheresoever on earth he dwells, man is prey to two weaknesses: the need to pray and the need to love."-Marquis de Sade

    "It is not by reasoning or by our understanding that we have received our religion; it is by external authority and command."-Michel De Montaigne

    Heretical Vintage Purist and Non-Fan Extraordinaire!

  12. #12
    SAY10 is coming... dedset13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    New Bedford, MA
    Posts
    5,496
    I'm really excited to see how this turns out.

    I agree that the Joker's origin shouldn't be completely revealed. However, I think it's very possible to have an origin story that only takes a small peak behind the curtain and still leaves his true backstory muddy and convoluted. Though I don't have much faith in DC to do that well, I'm still interested to see how this one will go.
    "Oh Lord, Bless this M&M... and the mighty cockroach I slain in battle to get it." - Al Bundy

  13. #13
    Hexcellent Horror Hostess
    Penny Dreadful's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Massachusetts, US
    Posts
    4,270
    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Would you have preferred Superman to just show up and cross swords with Lex with no explanation of who he really is? The Krypton and Fortress of Solitude scenes scenes where we get to know Kal-el's family and who he is were among my favorite part of Superman. Rocky Balboa's life before Apollo Creed tapped him was essential in understanding Rocky's motivation and essence. Would it have been better to just have Spidey burst onto the scene and do battle the Green Goblin or did understanding Peter Parker's angst and his relationship with Norman Osborn make him i to a three dimensional character for viewers?
    Imo, great villains deserve no less of a reveal.
    As for The Joker, my inquiring mind wants to know 'why'
    Minimum half a billion in worldwide box office.
    Hi Jack!

    In most cases, fleshing out a character’s story and motivations can greatly enrich the character in question. I absolutely agree. The characters you list are excellent examples of that. When handled well, exploring a character’s past is certainly a good thing, but this isn't always the case.

    Iago from Othello is arguably the greatest villain in fiction. We can speculate about why he does what he does, but there are no clear and definitive answers. Shakespeare presents us with a glorious monster in Iago, and all are left to wonder, "why?" If Shakespeare had humanized Iago and spelled out his motives, it would have greatly weakened the character. Something about his "motiveless malignity," as Coleridge called it, makes him just that much scarier. There is no real reason for what he does. Maybe "honest Iago" was just a monster who took joy in his evil manipulations.

    I, and I'd say most Bat-fans, see Joker in a similar light. I favor the “no clear origin” approach simply due to the nature of the character. He is a force of chaos – a “wild card” (pun intended). Joker is a deranged, fevered circus nightmare. He should never be fully humanized. I like the idea of Batman uncovering tantalizing HINTS about the Joker’s past, but these hints must never form a clear picture. Any hints about the Joker’s previous life should contradict themselves, just as the Joker himself is a contradiction. He’s claimed a number of origins for himself over the years. As Batman says, "Like any other comedian, he uses whatever material will work."

    We do know a few things about Joker. We know he took on the criminal disguise of the Red Hood before he became the Joker. During a fight with Batman, he fell into a vat of chemicals that bleached his skin, turned his hair green, and gave him a hideous rictus grin. I think those are the only "definite" things about Joker's past.

    That said, my favorite POSSIBLE origin for the Joker is The Killing Joke. I think most would agree, this is the one that might come closest to the truth. Joker is the ultimate unreliable narrator, however, and he blatantly throws the entire thing into question with his “multiple choice” remark. If you haven’t read The Killing Joke by Alan Moore and Brian Bolland, then I highly recommend it (skip the animated adaptation). If a Joker origin film must exist, this is the story they should mine.

    Now, even though I’m not in favor of an origin for the Joker, Scorsese is a genius. If he tackles a Joker origin film, then I’m sure it will be worth watching. I do hope it’s an adaptation of The Killing Joke, or something along those lines, rather than some definitive attempt to try and give the Joker an origin. Another alternative would be an anthology film where the Joker narrates his origin, but each story is a different version and we don’t know for certain which one (if any) is true. This is sort of what Heath Ledger does in The Dark Knight. He gives a different account of his past to assorted people he encounters.

    Generally though, I agree with wolfsfang above - the Joker just... is. I can wonder "why," and I can ponder the the hints, but I don't want a definitive answer. As Iago said, “Demand me nothing. What you know, you know. From this time forth I never will speak word.”
    Last edited by Penny Dreadful; August 23, 2017 at 11:22am.
    PENNY DREADFUL'S SHILLING SHOCKERS
    Weekly hosted horror, sci-fi, suspense, and fantasy films!
    On television scare-waves throughout Haunted New England


    OFFICIAL WEBSITE
    http://www.shillingshockers.com

  14. #14
    Master of New Adventures!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    9,157
    And I prefer seeing John Wick's dog killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Penny Dreadful View Post
    Hi Jack!

    In most cases, fleshing out a character’s story and motivations can greatly enrich the character in question. I absolutely agree. The characters you list are excellent examples of that. When handled well, exploring a character’s past is certainly a good thing, but this isn't always the case.

    Iago from Othello is arguably the greatest villain in fiction. We can speculate about why he does what he does, but there are no clear and definitive answers. Shakespeare presents us with a glorious monster in Iago, and all are left to wonder, "why?" If Shakespeare had humanized Iago and spelled out his motives, it would have greatly weakened the character. Something about his "motiveless malignity," as Coleridge called it, makes him just that much scarier. There is no real reason for what he does. Maybe "honest Iago" was just a monster who took joy in his evil manipulations.

    I, and I'd say most Bat-fans, see Joker in a similar light. I favor the “no clear origin” approach simply due to the nature of the character. He is a force of chaos – a “wild card” (pun intended). Joker is a deranged, fevered circus nightmare. He should never be fully humanized. I like the idea of Batman uncovering tantalizing HINTS about the Joker’s past, but these hints must never form a clear picture. Any hints about the Joker’s previous life should contradict themselves, just as the Joker himself is a contradiction. He’s claimed a number of origins for himself over the years. As Batman says, "Like any other comedian, he uses whatever material will work."

    We do know a few things about Joker. We know he took on the criminal disguise of the Red Hood before he became the Joker. During a fight with Batman, he fell into a vat of chemicals that bleached his skin, turned his hair green, and gave him a hideous rictus grin. I think those are the only "definite" things about Joker's past.

    That said, my favorite POSSIBLE origin for the Joker is The Killing Joke. I think most would agree, this is the one that might come closest to the truth. Joker is the ultimate unreliable narrator, however, and he blatantly throws the entire thing into question with his “multiple choice” remark. If you haven’t read The Killing Joke by Alan Moore and Brian Bolland, then I highly recommend it (skip the animated adaptation). If a Joker origin film must exist, this is the story they should mine.

    Now, even though I’m not in favor of an origin for the Joker, Scorsese is a genius. If he tackles a Joker origin film, then I’m sure it will be worth watching. I do hope it’s an adaptation of The Killing Joke, or something along those lines, rather than some definitive attempt to try and give the Joker an origin. Another alternative would be an anthology film where the Joker narrates his origin, but each story is a different version and we don’t know for certain which one (if any) is true. This is sort of what Heath Ledger does in The Dark Knight. He gives a different account of his past to assorted people he encounters.

    Generally though, I agree with wolfsfang above - the Joker just... is. I can wonder "why," and I can ponder the the hints, but I don't want a definitive answer. As Iago said, “Demand me nothing. What you know, you know. From this time forth I never will speak word.”

  15. #15
    Heroic Warrior Ivan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    1,882
    Quote Originally Posted by wolfsfang View Post
    Sorry but NO

    This must NOT happen

    The Joker works best when he doesn't have an origin story. When he just...is.
    This is how I feel about Skeletor, which is why I am not a big fan of Keldor. There's something weirdly surreal about those 'agent of chaos"-type characters

  16. #16
    Master of New Adventures!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    9,157
    Ya mean like John Wick?

    Look, I get and respect what everyone is saying here. I believe I feel the way I do because I have spent decades on the other side of the camera and I not only know but want to know the 'why'. I realize it's disappointing to many to see the curtain pulled aside to see an old man who used to work at the circus raising and lowering levers and twisting dials revealed as the not-so-great-and-powerful Wizard of Oz. But for me it completes the character and helps to make me care. I always cared about Darth Vader, but I cared so much more when he was revealed to be Luke's father and I respected him so much more when he had his helmet pulled off so he could look at his son with his own eyes. Then, to learn his true story and origin in Revenge of the Sith completed him for me. How delighted I was to learn the origin and motivations of my all time favorite villain in that film. How unfulfilled I would have been if that film was never made. While it's true I never would have known I was unfulfilled if the film wasn't made, I'm grateful that it was, and in the years following it I developed and even great love for that character. If those things and that film hadn't happened then -- as great a villain as he was -- he would have been two dimensional. Those things and that film -- at least for me -- made him three dimensional and so much more compelling.

    I'm not saying I'm right and I'm not saying I'm wrong or that anyone else is right or wrong. It's just who I am. I guess we'll all just have to respectfully agree to disagree on this one. And, of course, I was joking when I told BCI Guy that he broke my heart.

    Apparently, however, a studio thinks there are enough people like me that they are willing to spend a hundred million dollars to find out if they're right or wrong. One way or another, the result should be interesting.

    Oh, and wolfy, you might want to think about prefacing a declarative sentence with "In my opinion..." Just sayin'...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    This is how I feel about Skeletor, which is why I am not a big fan of Keldor. There's something weirdly surreal about those 'agent of chaos"-type characters
    Last edited by Heeeere's Olesker!; August 23, 2017 at 01:16pm.

  17. #17
    Master of fear Drunken Fist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Petal, Mississippi
    Posts
    5,992
    I don't see the problem here. While I agree that the Joker works best when we don't know every detail about his past, he already has been given several origin stories in the comics, with no specific one nailed down as the "official" one. Whatever they come up with for the movie will just be one more potential origin tossed onto the pile, so as along as the movie is good, it's all hunky dory as far as I'm concerned. This will just be the origin the Joker believes in on that particular day.

  18. #18
    Heroic Warrior
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    6,861
    I don't work in opinions.

    I work in facts


  19. #19
    Master of New Adventures!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    9,157
    "He works best as an unknowable force of chaos. Someone who just exists to spread chaos without rhyme or reason." "An origin does not suit the Joker."

    Sorry to burst your balloon, my good friend, but your above statements are opinions. If they were facts then a studio would not gamble upwards of a hundred million on an origin story. Now that's a fact.

    Case closed.


    Quote Originally Posted by wolfsfang View Post
    I don't work in opinions.

    I work in facts


  20. #20
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    4,480
    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    "He works best as an unknowable force of chaos. Someone who just exists to spread chaos without rhyme or reason." "An origin does not suit the Joker."

    Sorry to burst your balloon, my good friend, but your above statements are opinions. If they were facts then a studio would not gamble upwards of a hundred million on an origin story. Now that's a fact.

    Case closed.
    Unless.....right at the end of the movie after telling the story and all the secrets revealed....little Keyser Soze walks away losing his limp and gets into a purple Lambo with Harley hanging out the sunroof!!!
    White knights of the internet only see flowers or dragons. Nothing in between.

  21. #21
    Master of DVDs BCI Guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    6,432
    IMO, the only thing that would really work is to do it like that great episode of Batman: TAS where the group of kids imagining Batman.

    But tell it from a group of criminals terrified of the Joker. Either a group hiding out from him, wanting to join him or waiting to see what he does to them. Let each story be more dark and disturbing than the last. The audience can then choose which of the (say) 5 or 6 stories they think is the one.

  22. #22
    Master of New Adventures!
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    9,157
    Point well made. That said, however, I'd love to see the film Keyser: The Early Years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    Unless.....right at the end of the movie after telling the story and all the secrets revealed....little Keyser Soze walks away losing his limp and gets into a purple Lambo with Harley hanging out the sunroof!!!

  23. #23
    Hexcellent Horror Hostess
    Penny Dreadful's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Massachusetts, US
    Posts
    4,270
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    This is how I feel about Skeletor, which is why I am not a big fan of Keldor. There's something weirdly surreal about those 'agent of chaos"-type characters
    See, now for me, I tend to favor the Keldor backstory for Skeletor as I feel it gives the character some interesting layers. I like that Keldor already had some of those hidden psychopathic tendencies and an obsession with forbidden magic, and then went full-tilt chaos and destruction after he became Skeletor.

    With Joker though, I prefer just the shadowy hints and unclear glimpses, with no definitive origin or motive for his actions.

    That said, the 1989 'Batman' gave Joker an origin, and I love that movie and Nicholson's portrayal SO much!



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    PENNY DREADFUL'S SHILLING SHOCKERS
    Weekly hosted horror, sci-fi, suspense, and fantasy films!
    On television scare-waves throughout Haunted New England


    OFFICIAL WEBSITE
    http://www.shillingshockers.com

  24. #24
    Friend of fox Rhanen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Eternian Pampas
    Posts
    2,195
    Quote Originally Posted by BCI Guy View Post
    IMO, the only thing that would really work is to do it like that great episode of Batman: TAS where the group of kids imagining Batman.

    But tell it from a group of criminals terrified of the Joker. Either a group hiding out from him, wanting to join him or waiting to see what he does to them. Let each story be more dark and disturbing than the last. The audience can then choose which of the (say) 5 or 6 stories they think is the one.
    That episode, "Legends of the Dark Knight", and "Almost Got'im" are my 2 favorite episodes from BTAS.

    I was thinking pretty much the same, some sort of "Interview with a Vampire" & "The Big Fish" mix with someone telling "a presumed" Joker origin story as a flashback.
    I'm intrigued based on the talent involved, but even if they want to tell a "definitive" origin story, it would not compute for me. It is pretty much as Superman killing Zod in MoS.

    As much as I like "The Killing Joke", with all Joker clever speeches and everything, I always find quite difficult to justify that a frustated comedian and family man becomes the most dangerous psychopath and insane master mind in the whole DC universe beacuse of a series of devastating tragic events. I've not read the current comics exposing the three Jokers status quo, which I think is an effort to show the character as larger than life force of evil of some sort, but I always prefer the blurry origin past as it is wonderfully exposed by Heath Ledger in "The Dark Knight"
    Great trade orgers: Son of Keldor - sdilks -JeMaBo2 x3 - Kowl - Bigassbuzz (Hyveofvillany) - Queen Marlena - mikescab - whitespyders(

    My feedback thread

  25. #25
    Heroic Warrior DC_WARLORD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Skartaris, Inner Earth
    Posts
    2,303
    The good thing is this: All these characters have been around for decades, and there have been multiple takes on them and their origins. Each one of us can enjoy whichever stories and movies we like, and simply ignore the rest. Easy peasy!
    Odd Man Out

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •