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Thread: THE JOKER film origin story...with Scorsese producing?! Are you kidding?!!!

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by diosoth View Post
    Problem is I don't see the Joker, I see any generic villain character. No acid bath, just clown makeup. Promo pics show him in a red suit too. And again, no connection to Batman with his origin, so there feels like no reason for him to be obsessed with Batman when they do eventually meet. If it wasn't for some executive decisions claiming otherwise I would swear this was a DK prequel.

    Ledger was a crazy, destructive villain, he was not the Joker. I feel we aren't allowed to criticize that because Ledger died, but no acid bath, no bleached skin, no super laughing gas chemicals. Just some runny makeup, dyed hair and some puffy cheeks that were supposed to be scars but didn't look at all like a smile. Nolan's entire Batman franchise was stripped down, removing a lot of elements that should be there under the claims of "realism", so we got no batmobile, Bane without chemicals, Ra's al-Ghul with no Lazarus pit and a mispronounced name, while if he'd just stripped what few Batman elements were there they could have been decent standalone films. Honestly Ledger Joker would have been a better villain without the makeup or purple suit, he'd have been scarier as a new character.

    Gotham is the closest we've had since Nicholson to getting it right, but even then DC has pulled their "bat embargo" stunt with that and put limitations on their production- the first guy couldn't have the bleached skin. Second guy had to have purple hair. Now that he's fallen in the acid his skin is mangled and while the hair is now green it's a few strands. Sure Leto has the white skin and green hair but he has those nasty capped teeth, the tattoos that only seemed to annoy fans and really didn't add anything special(I don't dislike the IDEA of them but the actual tats look awful) and most of his scenes were shirtless. He also really had little time to shine as the Joker thanks to a mediocre script despite his attitude and mannerisms getting praise, with the sequel either in limbo or canned due to lack of interest.

    And I don't mind saying it but Telltale had a very good, very unique setup for their version, having him bleached with green hair before he went insane, being friends with Bruce yet manipulated by Harley, with a path through all the games that decided if he became the typical Joker or a hero, only to throw away both eventualities in a mediocre final game that wasted the hero version on bad writing and the villain version on his man-crush obsession with Bruce being his friend.

    The character really should not need to be this difficult to get right.
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  2. #52
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diosoth View Post
    Problem is I don't see the Joker, I see any generic villain character. No acid bath, just clown makeup. Promo pics show him in a red suit too. And again, no connection to Batman with his origin, so there feels like no reason for him to be obsessed with Batman when they do eventually meet. If it wasn't for some executive decisions claiming otherwise I would swear this was a DK prequel.

    Ledger was a crazy, destructive villain, he was not the Joker. I feel we aren't allowed to criticize that because Ledger died, but no acid bath, no bleached skin, no super laughing gas chemicals. Just some runny makeup, dyed hair and some puffy cheeks that were supposed to be scars but didn't look at all like a smile. Nolan's entire Batman franchise was stripped down, removing a lot of elements that should be there under the claims of "realism", so we got no batmobile, Bane without chemicals, Ra's al-Ghul with no Lazarus pit and a mispronounced name, while if he'd just stripped what few Batman elements were there they could have been decent standalone films. Honestly Ledger Joker would have been a better villain without the makeup or purple suit, he'd have been scarier as a new character.

    Gotham is the closest we've had since Nicholson to getting it right, but even then DC has pulled their "bat embargo" stunt with that and put limitations on their production- the first guy couldn't have the bleached skin. Second guy had to have purple hair. Now that he's fallen in the acid his skin is mangled and while the hair is now green it's a few strands. Sure Leto has the white skin and green hair but he has those nasty capped teeth, the tattoos that only seemed to annoy fans and really didn't add anything special(I don't dislike the IDEA of them but the actual tats look awful) and most of his scenes were shirtless. He also really had little time to shine as the Joker thanks to a mediocre script despite his attitude and mannerisms getting praise, with the sequel either in limbo or canned due to lack of interest.

    And I don't mind saying it but Telltale had a very good, very unique setup for their version, having him bleached with green hair before he went insane, being friends with Bruce yet manipulated by Harley, with a path through all the games that decided if he became the typical Joker or a hero, only to throw away both eventualities in a mediocre final game that wasted the hero version on bad writing and the villain version on his man-crush obsession with Bruce being his friend.

    The character really should not need to be this difficult to get right.
    Well way back in another thread I said this and I'll say it again:

    There are hardcore DC fans that have known all the Jokers and have a pretty good idea of who/what he should be according to the comics. That being said there are a lot of people that don't. And that's why Nolan's movies were so popular and Leger's Joker was considered so good. For some people the comics will always be their favorite version of a character while some of us prefer the movie versions. I know I favor some of both.

    So while this trailer may not appeal to hardcore Joker fans, to someone like myself, it looks great. I'll be anxiously awaiting this one in theaters.


    I guess though it boils down to "getting it right for comic fans" vs "getting it right for movie goers". Sometimes you get both, sometimes only one, and sometimes you get neither.
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  3. #53
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    The movie could be good or the movie could be bad.

    Thing is tho, I don't want to know his origin. I know some people probably do but I am one of those people who think not only does he not need one, he SHOULDN'T have one. He works better imo as this unknowable force of chaos who just does what he does for the heck of it.

    I want to like the Joker. I want to be intrigued and fascinated by him.

    I do NOT want to feel sympathy for him or to know why he is the way he is.

    As the character says

    “If I have to have a past, then I prefer it to be multiple choice.”

  4. #54
    Ancient One zodak74's Avatar
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    Based off the trailer alone, I think it looks like a solid one-off kind of flick and am eager to check it out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    Well way back in another thread I said this and I'll say it again:

    There are hardcore DC fans that have known all the Jokers and have a pretty good idea of who/what he should be according to the comics. That being said there are a lot of people that don't. And that's why Nolan's movies were so popular and Leger's Joker was considered so good. For some people the comics will always be their favorite version of a character while some of us prefer the movie versions. I know I favor some of both.

    So while this trailer may not appeal to hardcore Joker fans, to someone like myself, it looks great. I'll be anxiously awaiting this one in theaters.


    I guess though it boils down to "getting it right for comic fans" vs "getting it right for movie goers". Sometimes you get both, sometimes only one, and sometimes you get neither.
    Not saying Phoenix can't pull it of it's just the WB once again screwed it up and made it outside their movie universe which doesn't make sense...They can get WW & Aquaman right but others recently have been big misses....

  6. #56
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    Scott Snyder (who knows a thing or two about the Joker) with a very healthy attitude:

    Before I watch Joker, know I am ALWAYS up for giving a new take on a character a chance, even if it goes against my beliefs. It excites me to see creatives do something daring, passionate w/an icon. Sometimes it fails, yes, BUT sometimes it expands everything we thought we knew.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by diosoth View Post
    Problem is I don't see the Joker, I see any generic villain character. No acid bath, just clown makeup. Promo pics show him in a red suit too. And again, no connection to Batman with his origin, so there feels like no reason for him to be obsessed with Batman when they do eventually meet. If it wasn't for some executive decisions claiming otherwise I would swear this was a DK prequel.

    Ledger was a crazy, destructive villain, he was not the Joker. I feel we aren't allowed to criticize that because Ledger died, but no acid bath, no bleached skin, no super laughing gas chemicals. Just some runny makeup, dyed hair and some puffy cheeks that were supposed to be scars but didn't look at all like a smile. Nolan's entire Batman franchise was stripped down, removing a lot of elements that should be there under the claims of "realism", so we got no batmobile, Bane without chemicals, Ra's al-Ghul with no Lazarus pit and a mispronounced name, while if he'd just stripped what few Batman elements were there they could have been decent standalone films. Honestly Ledger Joker would have been a better villain without the makeup or purple suit, he'd have been scarier as a new character.

    Gotham is the closest we've had since Nicholson to getting it right,
    Yep. Agree with all of this. The gritty Joker origin seemed like a dumb idea when I heard it... and seeing the trailer I see nothing to convince me otherwise. Trying to make a sympathetic Joker is a weird choice... since we already know this is the origin of the guy who's fine with blowing up orphanges and hospitals... so it's a steep climb to get us to feel sorry for him. I would LOVE to be in the boardroom where people are coming up with these ideas...

    Let's do Joker solo... yeah, the killer clown, with no batman, no Harley, no chemicals.. nothing that resembles joker... umm... why are we doing this again??

    Also big agree with Ledger. He was a fantastic villain. An excellent character in an excellent movie... but that Character was never Joker.

  8. #58
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    I talked junk about the point of this movie from the first time I heard about it.

    But here's the thing: It's A Joker, not the Joker. Take away the comics, and how many Jokers have their been? What is the true Joker?

    -Ceaser Romero
    -Jack Nicholson
    -Heath Ledger
    -Jared Leto
    -Batman: Dead End ( Bo-Ner from Growing Pains )
    -Batman TAS
    -LEGO Movie
    -Dreadlocked, straight jacketed version from The Batman
    -Gotham's it's-not-the-Joker-but-wait, it-is the Joker

    It just goes on and on. My point is this....even if you hate this movie, it's just one particular vision of him. It looks to be a 'Comic Book Movie' without a lot of car chases, big explosions, and big, crazy special effects. It looks a lot more psychological. Who knows what other versions will come?? There will be many more Jokers. It's entirely possible that the next Joker will be played by a different actor, or even actress the way things are going.

    DC WARNER BROS needs to have an ELSEWORLDS screen crawl at the beginning of every single movie, and then just not worry about anything connecting. Haha!
    Last edited by DC_WARLORD; April 3, 2019 at 10:08pm.
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  9. #59
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    The Joker is my favorite comics villain, and I was pretty resistant to the idea of this movie, but I have to admit the trailer kind of sold me on it. There are too many cool things in it, including references to Chaplin and "The King of Comedy". If I think of it as an "Elseworlds"/"What If" type movie, I think I could be onboard for this.
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  10. #60
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    One of my favorite things about Ledger's Joker is that he changed his story to suit his audience. You could not possibly know what the truth was. I think that works for Joker, being mysterious and crazy. Giving him a background is just going to cheapen the character.

    Edit: So much hate for Ledger's Joker, I loved him. I did not grow up reading Batman though, I was a Supes and X-Men girl.
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  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    One of my favorite things about Ledger's Joker is that he changed his story to suit his audience. You could not possibly know what the truth was. I think that works for Joker, being mysterious and crazy. Giving him a background is just going to cheapen the character.

    Edit: So much hate for Ledger's Joker, I loved him. I did not grow up reading Batman though, I was a Supes and X-Men girl.
    Nah, Heath Ledger Joker puts the bar higher on his performance in which the previous bar was already high. It is to most people the best Joker thus far.

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  12. #62
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    I really loved his portrayal, he is probably my favorite Joker to date. I thought Jared Leto sucked. Jack Nicholson was great, but not scary. When I think of the Joker I think of someone unpredictable and terrifying.

    I was just reading an article about the various portrayals of the Joker over the years and I did not remember that Heath was only 28 when he died. My God, that is way too young.
    Last edited by IceyCat; April 4, 2019 at 09:45am.
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  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Yep. Agree with all of this. The gritty Joker origin seemed like a dumb idea when I heard it... and seeing the trailer I see nothing to convince me otherwise. Trying to make a sympathetic Joker is a weird choice... since we already know this is the origin of the guy who's fine with blowing up orphanges and hospitals... so it's a steep climb to get us to feel sorry for him. I would LOVE to be in the boardroom where people are coming up with these ideas...

    Let's do Joker solo... yeah, the killer clown, with no batman, no Harley, no chemicals.. nothing that resembles joker... umm... why are we doing this again??

    Also big agree with Ledger. He was a fantastic villain. An excellent character in an excellent movie... but that Character was never Joker.
    Quote Originally Posted by diosoth View Post
    Problem is I don't see the Joker, I see any generic villain character. No acid bath, just clown makeup. Promo pics show him in a red suit too. And again, no connection to Batman with his origin, so there feels like no reason for him to be obsessed with Batman when they do eventually meet. If it wasn't for some executive decisions claiming otherwise I would swear this was a DK prequel.

    Ledger was a crazy, destructive villain, he was not the Joker. I feel we aren't allowed to criticize that because Ledger died, but no acid bath, no bleached skin, no super laughing gas chemicals. Just some runny makeup, dyed hair and some puffy cheeks that were supposed to be scars but didn't look at all like a smile. Nolan's entire Batman franchise was stripped down, removing a lot of elements that should be there under the claims of "realism", so we got no batmobile, Bane without chemicals, Ra's al-Ghul with no Lazarus pit and a mispronounced name, while if he'd just stripped what few Batman elements were there they could have been decent standalone films. Honestly Ledger Joker would have been a better villain without the makeup or purple suit, he'd have been scarier as a new character.

    Gotham is the closest we've had since Nicholson to getting it right, but even then DC has pulled their "bat embargo" stunt with that and put limitations on their production- the first guy couldn't have the bleached skin. Second guy had to have purple hair. Now that he's fallen in the acid his skin is mangled and while the hair is now green it's a few strands. Sure Leto has the white skin and green hair but he has those nasty capped teeth, the tattoos that only seemed to annoy fans and really didn't add anything special(I don't dislike the IDEA of them but the actual tats look awful) and most of his scenes were shirtless. He also really had little time to shine as the Joker thanks to a mediocre script despite his attitude and mannerisms getting praise, with the sequel either in limbo or canned due to lack of interest.

    And I don't mind saying it but Telltale had a very good, very unique setup for their version, having him bleached with green hair before he went insane, being friends with Bruce yet manipulated by Harley, with a path through all the games that decided if he became the typical Joker or a hero, only to throw away both eventualities in a mediocre final game that wasted the hero version on bad writing and the villain version on his man-crush obsession with Bruce being his friend.

    The character really should not need to be this difficult to get right.
    What about Jack's Joker?
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  14. #64
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    This smells like ready for the next award season (being premiered first in Toronto, Venice), it's very good teaser trailer, so tragic, compelling, scary. I would be ok with Phoenix being part of the (more popular) DCEU replacing Leto but it's not going to happen. This will be one and only take on the most celeb bat-villain, something we'll never get the chance with Marvel (now Disney' owned) whose movies are mainly for little kids.

    And by the way, Nicholson and Ledger were amazing but whoa I was scared by Cesar Romeo too when very little whereas The Penguin 66 made me laugh hard so much instead lol
    Last edited by Triklops 1; April 5, 2019 at 07:03pm.
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triklops 1 View Post
    This smells like ready for the next award season (being premiered first in Toronto, Venice), it's very good teaser trailer, so tragic, compelling, scary. I would be ok with Phoenix being part of the (more popular) DCEU replacing Leto but it's not going to happen. This will be one and only take on the most celeb bat-villain, something we'll never get the chance with Marvel (now Disney' owned) whose movies are mainly for little kids.

    And by the way, Nicholson and Ledger are amazing but whoa I was scared by Cesar Romeo too when I was very little whereas The Penguin 66 made me laugh hard so much lol
    Award from a Trailer? Wow! now I've heard it all:

    1*Mg5Fv4HhfqJD7svp0BJgcA.png
    Last edited by Megalodon; April 5, 2019 at 04:39pm.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCanyon View Post
    What about Jack's Joker?
    What about him? In what regards?

    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    I really loved his portrayal, he is probably my favorite Joker to date. I thought Jared Leto sucked. Jack Nicholson was great, but not scary. When I think of the Joker I think of someone unpredictable and terrifying.
    Nicholson had a lot of that... especially since you got to see him before the chemicals. Pre-Batman he was pretty chill and reserved. Afterwards... not so much. He was the kind of Joker that could plant a whoppee cushion on your chair... or melt your face with acid. Even HE wasn't sure which it would be... extremely unpredictable. I've always considered Jack's Joker to be the 'craziest'. The kind who would go to ELABORATE lengths to make a kill memorable. It wasn't enough to murder everyone in Gotham... he had to do it with giant Balloons and a parade!!

    The others... they focus pretty hard on the evil murderous version... but that's a very shallow scrapping of what makes Joker.... Joker. To me it Romero was great... but Nicholson and Hamill got the 'whole' Joker.
    Last edited by phantom1592; April 5, 2019 at 06:36am.

  17. #67
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    The trailer was ok. What I really liked was how grimey the locations looked, like something out of a 70s movie. Speaking of, where are those steep staircases in NYC? I initially mistook them for the Georgetown Exorcist staircase but I guess it's not it. Also, didn't know DeNiro was in this...seems like his role will be some kind of callback to The King of Comedy.

  18. #68
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    This looks like a DC version of Taxi Driver.
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  19. #69
    Skeletor's Right Hand Man Megalodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spikor1982 View Post
    This looks like a DC version of Taxi Driver.
    This people do not see the problem with this film if it is an "Elseworlds" version of Joker why would you make the film? It's not like a direct to video or TV episode of Gotham it's the big screen and you do not want to waste and opportunity for the REAL version of the joker instead of an alternate version of him...

  20. #70
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    I'm looking forward to seeing this even more after seeing the trailer.
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  21. #71
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    This people do not see the problem with this film if it is an "Elseworlds" version of Joker why would you make the film? It's not like a direct to video or TV episode of Gotham it's the big screen and you do not want to waste and opportunity for the REAL version of the joker instead of an alternate version of him...
    Just a question, not with any intent behind it, but:

    Let's say there's this Joker that is somehow the product of mental illness and circumstance. We can make that movie.

    OR

    We make the movie with the comic origins with somehow ending up at a chemical plant him falling into a chemical vat that drives him insane. We could make this movie.


    Which do you think would appeal to a broader audience? Which of the two scenarios is more "realistic"?
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    Just a question, not with any intent behind it, but:

    Let's say there's this Joker that is somehow the product of mental illness and circumstance. We can make that movie.

    OR

    We make the movie with the comic origins with somehow ending up at a chemical plant him falling into a chemical vat that drives him insane. We could make this movie.


    Which do you think would appeal to a broader audience? Which of the two scenarios is more "realistic"?
    But see that's the problem things are being changed TOO much to suit the general audience. Jack was great and so was Heath because Batman was there this is not a good idea of a solo joker film

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    But see that's the problem things are being changed TOO much to suit the general audience. Jack was great and so was Heath because Batman was there this is not a good idea of a solo joker film
    Well we'll just have to wait and see. I can say that for a casual Joker fan like myself, this trailer looks really good and already has me sold on seeing it.

    BTW I'm not convinced there won't be SOME showing of Batman in the film.
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  24. #74
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    This movie looks like it might be depressing as hell which is not really the type of movie I go out of my way to see in movie theaters. A movie on the topic of a serial killer with mom issues doesn't overly excite me. It is more of I'll watch it on Netflix if it comes on there type movie.

  25. #75
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    I wasn't too interested in seeing this but having watched the trailer I'll be sure to give it a watch, whether that's at the flicks though I can't say.

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