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Thread: Is Star Wars in Trouble?

  1. #1
    Grammer Flunky
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    Is Star Wars in Trouble?

    I had no opinion of Kathleen Kennedy. I had hoped that she and Disney would lead lucasfilm to greater heights..

    That hope quickly got slashed with some comments she made, the disaster of a rehash that was episode 7.....and everything they've done since then that does nothing but focus on episode 4 lead ups or classic trilogy rehashes.

     
    Episode 8 apparently has a torture room scene, ANOTHER Death Star and ANOTHER Super Star Destroyer. and a space that sounds similar to cloud city...sigh...


    and today, they just announced that they lost another director , this time earlier in the process. This is, what, their third recasting in directors?

    Some people praise the abilities of kathleen kennedy. to me, I personally think she comes off as someone who just manages money and has no talent themselves, alla a rick maccullum, and is just a company yes person at best. a corporate kiss up at worst. and it seems pretty clear to me she's going to sink lucasfilm at this rate..

    the fact that the movies make money means nothing. eventually people are going to realize that they are creatively bankrupt at this point and put the C team on star wars. and that's sad.


    anyway, that's my largely un popular opinion on things...
    Do you feel hopeful for star wars future?

  2. #2
    Stridor in MOTUC! RockinHard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredder View Post
    the disaster of a rehash that was episode 7.....
    I remember being in the minority when criticizing Episode 7, believing it was an Episode 4 rehash, that it was not very thrilling or emotionally engaging, that it emasculated Han Solo, and that it (and the new Star Wars movies in general) are obviously concerned about being PC. So many Star Wars fans thought I was nuts. Reminded me of myself even, back when Episode 1 came out, as I wanted to like it so bad, and didn't want to hear how it truly was bad. And I believe Episode 2 was worse than Episode 1. While the acting of The Force Awakens is far better than most of the prequels, I have little interest in any of the characters like I did Han, Luke, Leia, Lando, etc. Poe Dameron? Finn? They were forgettable to me. Maybe Rey will stand out more in Episode 8, but I didn't feel much towards her, either. Kylo Ren was the most interesting character in the movie to me. Haven't seen a character quite like that in Star Wars - perhaps shades of Anakin, but we knew where that plot was going (and mostly acted in an cringe-worthy way).

    Seems more people are coming around to this notion as time has gone by. I did like Rogue One for the most part, though I felt the overtures of PC agenda.

    I hope I'm wrong, but going by what I've seen so far, I can't see any of these movies coming close to why we're even talking about Star Wars - the magic of the original trilogy (though I still hate Chewbacca's Tarzan scream in ROTJ ).
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    Heroic Warrior DC_WARLORD's Avatar
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    God knows I'm no expert on anything, but here's my opinion:

    Sometimes, when you have a solid, but simple and basic story, that's good enough. But when you delve deeper and deeper, tear everything apart, try to link everything up, analyze every moment, and give meaning to 100 things that could just be random, you ruin it.

    Why add prosciutto, Swiss cheese, olives, and fancy mustard to a peanut butter and jelly sandwich?
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    I was personally feeling VERY hopeful, up until I saw the actual movie.

    then the PC nightmare mess that was R1, and all my thoughts went downhill from there.

    I'm not really sure how the star wars community on the whole feels. the few places I still visit and browse, of die hards, it seems about 60/50 with 60 being a bit more willing to criticize than they where around episode 7 time. but i still feel a largely 'but the movies make money, so they have to be successes!' attitude.

    i wonder if even those people will see that so far very early in the process, disney seems unwilling to be creative...

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    Heroic Warrior gbagok's Avatar
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    What are these comments Kennedy made that has fans hating on her? I've seen people allude to her committing some offense before but never seen the actual offending words. She's been around with Lucasfilm going back to its golden age and so far the two movies under her tenure, The Force Awakens and Rogue One, are movies I liked a lot. In Rogue One's case I actually loved it. PC nightmare? No. I'm not in the industry but so far as a fan I've appreciated the products of her course corrections. The loss of Carrie Fisher is still the bigger shadow over Episode 8 for me.
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    Heroic Warrior DC_WARLORD's Avatar
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    I have no idea if it would actually work, and I tend to be in the minority with stuff like this, but my thought is to BRANCH OUT! Please, go 500 years or more into the past. The potential is limitless! There could be all new characters, all new aliens, and more important, an all new story line!
    Odd Man Out

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbagok View Post
    What are these comments Kennedy made that has fans hating on her? I've seen people allude to her committing some offense before but never seen the actual offending words. She's been around with Lucasfilm going back to its golden age and so far the two movies under her tenure, The Force Awakens and Rogue One, are movies I liked a lot. In Rogue One's case I actually loved it. PC nightmare? No. I'm not in the industry but so far as a fan I've appreciated the products of her course corrections. The loss of Carrie Fisher is still the bigger shadow over Episode 8 for me.
    will reply in PM. answer belongs more on the tar swamp.

  8. #8
    No more OT Dice's Avatar
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    I find that people's perceptions of these newer films varies by age.

    The good news is that there are plenty of younger fans emerging and many of them are female. So while some people might view some of the decisions they've mad in these last few movies as PC, others see it as them appealing to their fan base. They've also grossed over a combined 3 billion dollars worldwide. So overall, the movies have been more than what some might call successful.

    Most of what's "wrong" with the newer movies is based only on people's personal opinion. I hated episodes I, II, and III but my kids liked them a lot. I think anyone around can agree that the Star Wars property isn't in trouble at all when they look at it beyond their own personal opinion.

  9. #9
    Clown Prince of Darkness Benedict Judas Hel's Avatar
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    Star Wars will be okay. It will outlive all of us.
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    SoH Supporter He-Dad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Judas Hel View Post
    Star Wars will be okay. It will outlive all of us.
    Agreed. I'm a pretty hardcore Star Wars movie fan and I have to say I loved episode 7 and Rogue 1. I love the exposure the new films have brought and it's amazing to be able to share them with my family. That brings me to the next point....family. These aresults not made for 30 and 40 year old men as the target demographic. They are for kids. The original was made for kids and these are made for our kids. That's the bottom line. And if you ask today's kids.....they love it! That's what truly matters.

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    Heroic Warrior Lando452's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Dad View Post
    Agreed. I'm a pretty hardcore Star Wars movie fan and I have to say I loved episode 7 and Rogue 1. I love the exposure the new films have brought and it's amazing to be able to share them with my family. That brings me to the next point....family. These aresults not made for 30 and 40 year old men as the target demographic. They are for kids. The original was made for kids and these are made for our kids. That's the bottom line. And if you ask today's kids.....they love it! That's what truly matters.
    Agreed, my son loves the all the Star Wars movies and we can both watch them together and enjoy them for what they are, I think They will be fine.
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  12. #12
    Stridor in MOTUC! RockinHard's Avatar
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    They should be made for both kids and adults, in my opinion - many of the popular animated movies are.

    However, no matter how bad the Star Wars movies are, many people will defend them because of the name, Star Wars and because it's the official canon.
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  13. #13
    Heroic Warrior PantherCult's Avatar
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    To answer the question posed in the thread title: NO

    The Force Awakens is the third highest grossing film of all time. The Last Jedi will land in the top 5. At the end of the day the thing that matters most in terms of longevity, etc is the box office gross. Now obviously quality will ultimately play a part. It's also possible that the upcoming ubiquity of Star Wars movies will make each individual movie a little less special becuase it's just one of many.

    It is interesting though, that Disney went out of their way to hire "on the rise" directors for their films and subsequently changed direction. It appears that Lucasfilm/Disney has a very specific vision for these movies - and that if the director tries to assert too much creative influence on the direction or message of the film they are being shown the door. Ultimately I'm not sure that will be a good thing.

    But we shouldn't be surprised by this. We have seen it for decades in the comic book industry. With any "shared universe" endeavor at some point the need to preserve the shared continuity places restraints on the storytellers as they can't simply tell their best possible story but also have to serve the greater narrative involving the stories of dozends of other creators too. There is certainly a happy medium to be found, but this isn't really a new phenomenon and it isn't unique to the Star Wars movies.

    Remember Aronofsky leaving Wolverine because Fox kept reigning him back in to serve the greater X-Men franchise? Remember Edgar Wright walking away from Ant-Man because the needs of the studio to serve the entire MCU were changing the things he wanted to pursue with his version of the film?

    It sounds like this is exactly what happened with the Han Solo movie and now with Episode IX. Lucasfilm is cultivating these movies very deliberately and thus are clearly retaining tight creative control over the elements in the film. When their writer/director explores a different track, first they try to reign them in, and if that doesn't go well they part ways. It will be interesting to see where they go from here.

    But Star Wars is going to remains insanely popular and huge cultural force for a long, long time.

  14. #14
    Grammer Flunky
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockinHard View Post
    They should be made for both kids and adults, in my opinion - many of the popular animated movies are.

    However, no matter how bad the Star Wars movies are, many people will defend them because of the name, Star Wars and because it's the official canon.
    yep. I can enjoy most cgi kids movies if they are good. like the despicable me series.
    and kids are the first to tell you when a movie is bad.

    I just hope star wars can survive past this nickel and dime it regime and can once again thrive as it once did.

    just cause the movies are a success doesn't make them good. look at all the money batman v superman made .

  15. #15
    No more OT Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredder View Post
    just cause the movies are a success doesn't make them good. look at all the money batman v superman made .
    It did OK but got beat out by two different Ice Age animated movies and made far less than half what the Force Awakens did.

    This is turning into another classic thread

    Guy 1: "I always wondered where Prince Adam ran off to when He-man came around. They never made it clear in the cartoons."

    Guy 2: "They clearly showed Prince Adam changing into He-man."

    Guy 1: "Guess we'll never know now. It's a shame we didn't get to find out."

    Guy 2: "Prince Adam IS He-man. They're the same person."

    Guy 1: "Just one of those open ended mysteries. People have their guesses but we can't know for sure."


  16. #16
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    naw...Star Wars will be fine so why even worry about it. If one has a problem with the "PC agenda", don't watch it and make up your own stories: grab some friends, some dice, and one of the various trpg's out there for Star Wars (3 by last count: WEG, D20, and now FFG). You can be as unPC with them as you want: full of naughty bits, or grrrrim n' daaark, or full of song n' dance.
    Or one of the many, MANY video games out for many platforms. Or the hundreds of novel, both old and new. Or play with the figures that can easily be bought at a brick and mortar store.

    Sure Ep. 7 was just a rehash, but it was a competently made, thrilling, special effects laden rehash. One that clearly worked and connect with the audience, hence the box office win; since not all rehashes/reboot/whatevs work: ID4 Resurgence. The original wasn't "original" but a "loving homage" to the black n white sci-fi serials of the past with a good dose of samurai action.

    Naw...let's not worry about Star Wars. Let's worry more about MotU, that's the franchise that needs are concerns more.

  17. #17
    Nature's Greatest Wonder Dynamo of Eternia's Avatar
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    So far, at least financially speaking, no, it's not in trouble.

    As for the two movies that have come out since Disney bought Lucasfilm, I liked them both. I was somewhat disappointed in The Force Awakens due to how similar it was to A New Hope. That stood out to me the first time that I saw it. Still, it did manage to get right what the prequels got wrong. I actually enjoyed the new characters and they felt like they had actual personalities. And I think they just wanted to "play it safe" with their first outing under Disney. I think they played it a little too safe, but it could have been worse.


    I enjoyed Rogue One a lot. It was kind of nice having a Star Wars movie that didn't have to have some of the obligatory things from the main saga. For instance, having to have a light saber battle at the climax of the film. It's not that I have anything against light saber battles. They are awesome in general. But after 7 movies of them always having one at roughly the same point in the movie, it's gets a little redundant.

    I also thought they did a good job of lining it up with where A New Hope starts off. If I have any criticisms, is some of the CGI. Mainly that of Tarkin and one other quick appearance of another character in their younger form. While the CGI done to "resurrect" Tarkin is impressive, it's still not quite at the level of looking like it's an actual person standing there (at least not consistently). There were a couple of fan service moments I could have done without (i.e. a quick appearance by a couple of droids), but they weren't that bad.


    That being said, I am concerned about Disney maintaining quality in the long haul if they plan to keep bringing out movies at the rate that they have been, especially the "side" movies. Rogue One was a good idea. Young Han Solo, I've had concerns about since it was announced. Seeing someone else other than Ford playing the role just seems wrong (unless they were to get someone who looks just like him, which from what I've seen of the guy they casted, while not necessarily terrible, he doesn't quite look the part).

    The change in directors and reshoots can either be good or bad depending on the circumstances. Rogue One went through reshoots and such, with the intent of getting the tone correct and things such as that. I'd rather they fix problems than just let them slide through. That said, just because it worked out for the most part for Rouge One doesn't mean the same will be the case for the Han Solo film, or any future movies that they make that might find themselves in similar circumstances.



    For The Last Jedi, I really hope they aren't going to have another Death Star or something similar to it. It sounds like the speculation around that, though, is based largely around the image of the original Death Star appearing on the box art for a new vehicle from The Last Jedi. And while that may be cause for concern, it's also just toy box art. And they often release toys from the past movies alongside the new ones, so it could have just been a form of combined marketing for the SW toys as a whole. I'm not going to get overly concerned until something more substantial than toy box art confirms there being a new Death Star in the new movie. And if there is one, hopefully the main climax of the movie isn't it getting blown up. If anything, it would be funnier if it shows up right at the start of the movie, it gets destroyed in the first act, and someone in the Resistance could say, "They need to stop building those things!"



    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    It did OK but got beat out by two different Ice Age animated movies and made far less than half what the Force Awakens did.

    This is turning into another classic thread

    Guy 1: "I always wondered where Prince Adam ran off to when He-man came around. They never made it clear in the cartoons."

    Guy 2: "They clearly showed Prince Adam changing into He-man."

    Guy 1: "Guess we'll never know now. It's a shame we didn't get to find out."

    Guy 2: "Prince Adam IS He-man. They're the same person."

    Guy 1: "Just one of those open ended mysteries. People have their guesses but we can't know for sure."

    What are you talking about? It IS a mystery! Just look at the two toy posters below:






    Both of them clearly show both Adam AND He-Man! In fact, one poster shows BOTH "regular" He-Man and "Battle Armor" He-Man in addition to Adam... suggesting that not only are He-Man and Adam separate characters, but there is more than one He-Man, and they are just generally not in the same place at the same time! It's the most perplexing mystery of all time!

    ____________________________________________

    In the name of the Lloyd!

  18. #18
    Stridor in MOTUC! RockinHard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tnktrk View Post
    naw...Star Wars will be fine so why even worry about it. If one has a problem with the "PC agenda", don't watch it and make up your own stories: grab some friends, some dice, and one of the various trpg's out there for Star Wars (3 by last count: WEG, D20, and now FFG). You can be as unPC with them as you want: full of naughty bits, or grrrrim n' daaark, or full of song n' dance.
    Or one of the many, MANY video games out for many platforms. Or the hundreds of novel, both old and new. Or play with the figures that can easily be bought at a brick and mortar store.

    Sure Ep. 7 was just a rehash, but it was a competently made, thrilling, special effects laden rehash. One that clearly worked and connect with the audience, hence the box office win; since not all rehashes/reboot/whatevs work: ID4 Resurgence. The original wasn't "original" but a "loving homage" to the black n white sci-fi serials of the past with a good dose of samurai action.

    Naw...let's not worry about Star Wars. Let's worry more about MotU, that's the franchise that needs are concerns more.
    Every Star Wars movie has been a "box office win." So they all "connect with the audience?" Can't tell you how many people disagree with this assessment in terms of the prequels. And it took years for many people to acknowledge that they aren't good movies. And I'm seeing after time, how Force Awakens was not the Second Coming to many, either.
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  19. #19
    Heroic Warrior gbagok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    Both of them clearly show both Adam AND He-Man! In fact, one poster shows BOTH "regular" He-Man and "Battle Armor" He-Man in addition to Adam... suggesting that not only are He-Man and Adam separate characters, but there is more than one He-Man, and they are just generally not in the same place at the same time! It's the most perplexing mystery of all time!
    And yet interestingly you don't see Faker anywhere in there. Or do you?
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  20. #20
    Nature's Greatest Wonder Dynamo of Eternia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbagok View Post
    And yet interestingly you don't see Faker anywhere in there. Or do you?

    ____________________________________________

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  21. #21
    Skeletor's Right Hand Man Megalodon's Avatar
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    Funny thing is people hated the prequels because they were different and they hate the sequels because they are copying the originals people love to ***** and moan... Whatever
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredder View Post
    I had no opinion of Kathleen Kennedy. I had hoped that she and Disney would lead lucasfilm to greater heights..

    That hope quickly got slashed with some comments she made, the disaster of a rehash that was episode 7.....and everything they've done since then that does nothing but focus on episode 4 lead ups or classic trilogy rehashes.



    and today, they just announced that they lost another director , this time earlier in the process. This is, what, their third recasting in directors?

    Some people praise the abilities of kathleen kennedy. to me, I personally think she comes off as someone who just manages money and has no talent themselves, alla a rick maccullum, and is just a company yes person at best. a corporate kiss up at worst. and it seems pretty clear to me she's going to sink lucasfilm at this rate..

    the fact that the movies make money means nothing. eventually people are going to realize that they are creatively bankrupt at this point and put the C team on star wars. and that's sad.


    anyway, that's my largely un popular opinion on things...
    Do you feel hopeful for star wars future?
    I feel before you can criticize Star Wars' Future... you have to be honest about it's past. Star Wars has been creatively bankrupt since 1983. More honestly, even Return of the Jedi was a rehash with a new Death Star the inclusion of the Ewoks.... Then the Christmas Special and the crappy cartoons... They were dead in the water for 15 years before the prequels hit (I still like the first one) but as a whole they're pretty hated. Then another decade passed before they tried again.

    After the craptastic prequels and Clone Wars focus I had written off Star Wars and George Lucas. I simply didn't care anymore (something I wouldn't have thought possible) but with Disney's handling of Marvel and the muppets... I had high hopes for the new series.

    Then they killed Han... and Now Leia died... personally I don't have high hopes for Luke getting out of this trilogy alive... so really I'm dropping back down to 'don't really care' status.


    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    Funny thing is people hated the prequels because they were different and they hate the sequels because they are copying the originals people love to ***** and moan... Whatever
    That's the thing. If you're hoping for them to recapture the glory of the original trilogy... without them constantly referencing the original trilogy... and without delving into areas the fans cry out is 'Not Star Wars'... then what is left??

    Star Wars was placed on a pedestal by fans for generations... but it really shouldn't be. The plot is fairly disjointed and cliche' and the whole franchise is riddled with plot holes when you take off the nostalgia goggles. The #1 thing that made Star Wars so mind-blowing was the special effects. Lucas did some truly amazing things that we kids had never seen before. The closest we had were cardboard sets and fake looking aliens. George Lucas gave us laser swords and exciting space combat and planets exploding and stimulated our minds and imaginations like nothing ever before it... and the TOYS!!! The merchandising was something that has never happened before!

    Star Wars branded itself on our hearts and minds when we were young... and now? What Star Wars did was unique at the time... but now??? It's just one for space opera in a whole slew of copycats that are more unique and original. Nothing they do now or later will recapture the lighting in the bottle for the old fans, the best they can do is grab hold of new ones.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I feel before you can criticize Star Wars' Future... you have to be honest about it's past. Star Wars has been creatively bankrupt since 1983. More honestly, even Return of the Jedi was a rehash with a new Death Star the inclusion of the Ewoks.... Then the Christmas Special and the crappy cartoons... They were dead in the water for 15 years before the prequels hit (I still like the first one) but as a whole they're pretty hated. Then another decade passed before they tried again.

    After the craptastic prequels and Clone Wars focus I had written off Star Wars and George Lucas. I simply didn't care anymore (something I wouldn't have thought possible) but with Disney's handling of Marvel and the muppets... I had high hopes for the new series.

    Then they killed Han... and Now Leia died... personally I don't have high hopes for Luke getting out of this trilogy alive... so really I'm dropping back down to 'don't really care' status.


    l

    I have NO doubt with KK in charge, luke was probably slated to die. Now that fate had us lose Fisher first...that plan is going to change. my theory at least.

    I personally think Disney has done HORRIBLY with the Muppets. And Marvel is more it's own entity. A fluke of grand proportions that no idiot in hollywood has been able to properly duplicate, despite trying.

    as for the prequels...the only thing that made them craptastic is a bad choice for anakin, and wooden acting. As well as starting out anakin WAY too young in the first one. What the Clone Wars ANIMATED series has shown us, is that this era CAN be fun, EVEN Jar Jar when used sparingly. it's all a matter of getting the right person in charge. Also, despite my initial feelings that some of Ep 1 felt like a 4 rehash.....we STILL got to see jedi and sith in their prime, so that made it more than worth the ticket. and Yoda in a starring role.


    All we got in ep 7 was classic characters in worse positions than when we left them, and a luke that has all but given up being a hero. boring.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    Star Wars was placed on a pedestal by fans for generations... but it really shouldn't be. The plot is fairly disjointed and cliche' and the whole franchise is riddled with plot holes when you take off the nostalgia goggles. The #1 thing that made Star Wars so mind-blowing was the special effects. Lucas did some truly amazing things that we kids had never seen before. The closest we had were cardboard sets and fake looking aliens. George Lucas gave us laser swords and exciting space combat and planets exploding and stimulated our minds and imaginations like nothing ever before it... and the TOYS!!! The merchandising was something that has never happened before!

    Star Wars branded itself on our hearts and minds when we were young... and now? What Star Wars did was unique at the time... but now??? It's just one for space opera in a whole slew of copycats that are more unique and original. Nothing they do now or later will recapture the lighting in the bottle for the old fans, the best they can do is grab hold of new ones.
    Don't forget that they also are what I like to call really "fun" movies. I was almost 20 years old before I ever saw the films and instantly fell in love with the entire Star Wars universe. So even with today's somewhat spoiled audiences (we've gotten a lot of good movies since and had access to much older classic movies as well) the original Trilogy is still a fan maker.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    Funny thing is people hated the prequels because they were different and they hate the sequels because they are copying the originals people love to ***** and moan... Whatever
    I think a LOT of the hate for the prequels is mostly about their portrayal of Anakin and his development into Vader. I know for me, after loving the movies and the "at the time, cannon" books, it was a major disappointment. The overall feel and especially the Score was still really good. I just can't get past how they (almost) ruined Vader for me.

  25. #25
    Nature's Greatest Wonder Dynamo of Eternia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredder View Post
    I have NO doubt with KK in charge, luke was probably slated to die. Now that fate had us lose Fisher first...that plan is going to change. my theory at least.
    What are you basing this on? The fact that Han died in The Force Awakens?

    It's been well known that Harrison Ford wanted Han to die in Return of the Jedi. But that didn't happen. So Han dying in The Force Awakens may well have been a condition that Harrison Ford put on returning to the role and being such a big part of that movie. It doesn't necessarily mean that the intention of Kathleen Kennedy or anyone else involved with running Lucasfilm now specifically intended to kill of an OT character in each new movie.

    Obviously they'll have to do something with Leia now due to the real life passing of Carrie Fisher, but that's due to circumstances beyond their control.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    Funny thing is people hated the prequels because they were different and they hate the sequels because they are copying the originals people love to ***** and moan... Whatever
    People didn't hate the prequels for simply being "different." People disliked the generally wooden and lifeless acting, the portrayal of Anakin and his transition to Vader, things that didn't quite line up with and that seemed to even contradict things already seen in the OT, goofy things like Jar Jar, etc.

    Nobody was complaining that there wasn't some equivalent to the Death Star in every other movie.

    The new films under Disney have largely gotten right what the prequels got wrong in terms of the acting and the general tone. But The Force Awakens simply rehashed too many things from the original films, particularly A New Hope.
    Last edited by Dynamo of Eternia; September 7, 2017 at 11:38am.
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