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Thread: Is Star Wars in Trouble?

  1. #51
    Heroic Warrior He-Kal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    See you can't do that you have to take the good and the bad that's what too many people do and it doesn't make any sense...Just like I didn't like that the Ewoks beat the all mighty empire with rocks and sticks... But it happened....Stop with the prequel hate already it's been 18 years already...
    I don't hate the prequels and like I said there are elements that I do like (the TV show and cartoon were great).
    But, the movies are mostly meh and tolerable at best and it amazes me some people are now saying they prefer the prequels to the new ones coming out Tbh, I think the best thing that happened to Starwars was Lucas selling the rights since other people seem to do better interpreting the material (if you don't believe me-see: Empire Strikes back).

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    Angast's #1 fan Bonehead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Kal View Post
    I don't hate the prequels and like I said there are elements that I do like (the TV show and cartoon were great).
    But, the movies are mostly meh and tolerable at best and it amazes me some people are now saying they prefer the prequels to the new ones coming out
    It's not really that hard to understand. The prequels, while flawed, are still a very good overall story with some great scenes. Not everything in the movies was great but Ep7 had tons on garbage in it as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by He-Kal View Post
    Tbh, I think the best thing that happened to Starwars was Lucas selling the rights since other people seem to do better interpreting the material (if you don't believe me-see: Empire Strikes back).
    Using the ESB though is a flawed defense. Your defense only holds water if Lucas had zero input like in Ep7. The ESB though still had Lucas. Lucas wrote the entire story and only had the co-writers add dialogue. The story, with the exception of a few minor plot points involving the Han-Leia relationship, was all Lucas. He passed off writing duties on it only to help with the time constraints FOX had placed on him. Just cause he didn't direct or write the script, doesn't mean he wasn't involved. A better example would be Rebels since he had no involvement in that show. ESB though is still Lucas


    If the lack of Lucas on anything Star Wars related makes it so much better, than explain the success of Ep4. If that movie was so bad than none of us would be here discussing all of this.
    Last edited by Bonehead; September 10, 2017 at 12:15pm.

  3. #53
    Skeletor's Right Hand Man Megalodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonehead View Post
    It's not really that hard to understand. The prequels, while flawed, are still a very good overall story with some great scenes. Not everything in the movies was great but Ep7 had tons on garbage in it as well.




    Using the ESB though is a flawed defense. Your defense only holds water if Lucas had zero input like in Ep7. The ESB though still had Lucas. Lucas wrote the entire story and only had the co-writers add dialogue. The story, with the exception of a few minor plot points involving the Han-Leia relationship, was all Lucas. He passed off writing duties on it only to help with the time constraints FOX had placed on him. Just cause he didn't direct or write the script, doesn't mean he wasn't involved. A better example would be Rebels since he had no involvement in that show. ESB though is still Lucas


    If the lack of Lucas on anything Star Wars related makes it so much better, than explain the success of Ep4. If that movie was so bad than none of us would be here discussing all of this.
    See people hate Lucas for little whiny things that do not make any sense like how Anakin was portrayed in the prequels..."He's whiny" "He's a baby" What? did you forget he killed a whole tribe of Tusken Raiders when 30 men couldn't??? his rage and anger made him a badass some of the most awesome characters have tradegy in their life that makes them turn out the way they do...That scene was so badass of him killing the Tuskens...All of them..and the way he relished in it was signs of Vader....But no people are going to complain about Jar Jar etc. (Stuff that doesn't matter) over and over it's like in others threads here people pick out what they want and MISS the point all the time like when I bring up the Ewoks defeating the empire with rocks and sticks if that had happened in the prequels they would have stormed George's house and tar and feathered him....But because it was in the ORIGINAL (Key word) Trilogy that's OK.... Such a double standard with those "rose colored" glasses with some people....

    And since when did movies get made by "fanboys" Oh that's right they didn't you didn't see this crap years ago before the internet came out now people complain,complain,complain constantly and would love for them to make it they "they think it should" listen movies are flawed but I enjoy them and don't overthink something to the point where I hate it because of all of the "fanboys"...
    Last edited by Megalodon; September 10, 2017 at 03:11pm.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    See people hate Lucas for little whiny things that do not make any sense like how Anakin was portrayed in the prequels..."He's whiny" "He's a baby" What? did you forget he killed a whole tribe of Tusken Raiders when 30 men couldn't??? his rage and anger made him a badass some of the most awesome characters have tradegy in their life that makes them turn out the way they do...That scene was so badass of him killing the Tuskens...All of them..and the way he relished in it was signs of Vader....But no people are going to complain about Jar Jar etc. (Stuff that doesn't matter) over and over it's like in others threads here people pick out what they want and MISS the point all the time like when I bring up the Ewoks defeating the empire with rocks and sticks if that had happened in the prequels they would have stormed George's house and tar and feathered him....But because it was in the ORIGINAL (Key word) Trilogy that's OK.... Such a double standard with those "rose colored" glasses with some people....

    And since when did movies get made by "fanboys" Oh that's right they didn't you didn't see this crap years ago before the internet came out now people complain,complain,complain constantly and would love for them to make it they "they think it should" listen movies are flawed but I enjoy them and don't overthink something to the point where I hate it because of all of the "fanboys"...
    I think there is a lot of Ewok hate around actually. Personally I kind of like the Ewoks and think this race of little savages is neat, though it could have been a little less cutesy for sure.

    My issues with the prequels have more to do with contradicting the original than anything else. I don't equate Jar Jar with Ewoks though, because even if they were cute they weren't slapstick physical comedy and poop joke level like Jar Jar is. That's my own personal take.

    But every Star Wars movie to me is enjoyable. I have criticisms of different ones for different reasons, but at the end of the day I've never left the theater hating one by any means. Episode 1, which to me is the weakest film and I can pick it apart all day, I saw in the theater 9 times

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    See people hate Lucas for little whiny things that do not make any sense like how Anakin was portrayed in the prequels..."He's whiny" "He's a baby" What? did you forget he killed a whole tribe of Tusken Raiders when 30 men couldn't??? his rage and anger made him a badass some of the most awesome characters have tradegy in their life that makes them turn out the way they do...That scene was so badass of him killing the Tuskens...All of them..and the way he relished in it was signs of Vader...
    He cried in every other scene he was in. Constantly crying and whining in every other scene. He was depicted as being a smart and matured little kid in Ep. 1 and then turns into a big emotional baby. It ruined the movies for me.

    And the scene you're talking about...do you mean where he comes out and slashes two of them from behind and then one that runs up too him? The scene then immediately ends! It really wasn't all that impressive to me.

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    Absolutey, I don't mind the main.I enjoyed both TFA and Rogue one for what they were. the PC stuff didn't bug me.Though Han's demise I thought was a little anti climactic. I would have like him doing out in a more heroic fashion rather then getting run through by his kid. I actually liked Fin and Poe was a cool character too. Did it parallel ANH? In a way it did but they had the introduce a whole new cast.


    QUOTE=He-Dad;3746178]Agreed. I'm a pretty hardcore Star Wars movie fan and I have to say I loved episode 7 and Rogue 1. I love the exposure the new films have brought and it's amazing to be able to share them with my family. That brings me to the next point....family. These aresults not made for 30 and 40 year old men as the target demographic. They are for kids. The original was made for kids and these are made for our kids. That's the bottom line. And if you ask today's kids.....they love it! That's what truly matters.[/QUOTE]

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    Heroic Warrior He-Kal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    He cried in every other scene he was in. Constantly crying and whining in every other scene. He was depicted as being a smart and matured little kid in Ep. 1 and then turns into a big emotional baby. It ruined the movies for me.

    And the scene you're talking about...do you mean where he comes out and slashes two of them from behind and then one that runs up too him? The scene then immediately ends! It really wasn't all that impressive to me.
    This reminds me: I was watching Alien Covenant a couple weeks ago and for some reason I thought to myself that Michael Fassbender would have made a good Anakin:Fassbender.jpg

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    So, it looks like Abrams is coming back to direct Epidode IX. Personally I think this is great news since Force Awakens was so good (sorry, not sorry haters).

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    but the Batman V Superman guy is writing .

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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Dad View Post
    Agreed. I'm a pretty hardcore Star Wars movie fan and I have to say I loved episode 7 and Rogue 1. I love the exposure the new films have brought and it's amazing to be able to share them with my family. That brings me to the next point....family. These aresults not made for 30 and 40 year old men as the target demographic. They are for kids. The original was made for kids and these are made for our kids. That's the bottom line. And if you ask today's kids.....they love it! That's what truly matters.
    Well if your such a Hardcore fan then most people thought that Rogue One should have been Dark Forces everything was the same except forcing in Vader & The Death Star etc. the concept was never used and would have been a helluva story more so than Rogue One...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    He cried in every other scene he was in. Constantly crying and whining in every other scene. He was depicted as being a smart and matured little kid in Ep. 1 and then turns into a big emotional baby. It ruined the movies for me.

    And the scene you're talking about...do you mean where he comes out and slashes two of them from behind and then one that runs up too him? The scene then immediately ends! It really wasn't all that impressive to me.
    Well since it was a "kids" film they couldn't show him slaughtering men,women and children (which he did)how about the part where he was telling Padme' about it and the look on his face like he enjoyed it...that was badass..see it is hate if the lines were better people would think it was great but just because he had some bad lines that were goofy you started seeing Vader come out...A badass bad guy doesn't carre about anyone!!! He destroys anyone that get's in his way...Oh like he does in ROTS...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    Well since it was a "kids" film they couldn't show him slaughtering men,women and children (which he did)how about the part where he was telling Padme' about it and the look on his face like he enjoyed it...that was badass..see it is hate if the lines were better people would think it was great but just because he had some bad lines that were goofy you started seeing Vader come out...A badass bad guy doesn't carre about anyone!!! He destroys anyone that get's in his way...Oh like he does in ROTS...
    I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. I had to youtube the scene you're talking about and guess what?? He's cries in that scene too!!

    Skip to minute 2:02 to see the tears.



    For me personally he came off like a immature, pouting, crybaby down to the scenes where he's losing to Obi-wan and half burning alive. It ruined my imagined Vader and turned him into an emotionally wrecked puppet of the Emperor.

    I loved Ep. IV, V, And VI. Enough that I bought and enjoyed the Han Solo Trilogy books, Shadows of the Empire, The Bounty Hunter Wars, and lots of others. I miss those times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. I had to youtube the scene you're talking about and guess what?? He's cries in that scene too!!

    Skip to minute 2:02 to see the tears.



    For me personally he came off like a immature, pouting, crybaby down to the scenes where he's losing to Obi-wan and half burning alive. It ruined my imagined Vader and turned him into an emotionally wrecked puppet of the Emperor.

    I loved Ep. IV, V, And VI. Enough that I bought and enjoyed the Han Solo Trilogy books, Shadows of the Empire, The Bounty Hunter Wars, and lots of others. I miss those times.
    I tend to agree with you, Dice-man...which is often the case, whether here or in The Tar Swamp. I've been in war and there's no place for crying in war. Frankly, she comes off as a lot stronger than he does...and she's a lot easier on the eyes. If it was me with her in that scene we'd be spending our time a lot more productively, like selecting which Victoria's Secret items she'd be packing for our seven-night cruise.
    Last edited by Heeeere's Olesker!; September 13, 2017 at 04:44pm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    I tend to agree with you, Dice-man...which is often the case, whether here or in The Tar Swamp. I've been in war and there's no place for crying in war. Frankly, she comes off as a lot stronger than he does...and she's a lot easier on the eyes. If it was me with her in that scene we'd be spending our time a lot more productively, like selecting which Victoria's Secret items she'd be packing for our seven-night cruise.
    they fixed ALOT of this with the clone wars animated series.

    I actually felt SAD that anakin was turning bad, because i liked what they did to his character and actually make him strong and likeable with difficult decisions.

    Spoiled anakin in the movies is horrible.....

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    In my book the animated series doesn't count...or it only half-counts. Too little, too late.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shredder View Post
    they fixed ALOT of this with the clone wars animated series.

    I actually felt SAD that anakin was turning bad, because i liked what they did to his character and actually make him strong and likeable with difficult decisions.

    Spoiled anakin in the movies is horrible.....

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    Skeletor's Right Hand Man Megalodon's Avatar
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    Once again can't pick and choose it's part of the continuity fair-weather fan...you can always tell the one's that pick and choose
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    How dare we love Star Wars, but not be content with some aspects of the prequels or new films! Get the pitchforks!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    Well if your such a Hardcore fan then most people thought that Rogue One should have been Dark Forces everything was the same except forcing in Vader & The Death Star etc. the concept was never used and would have been a helluva story more so than Rogue One...
    I think I've deciphered what you were trying to say but as I said, I'm a pretty hardcore fan of the movies...not the expanded universe, with the exception of Shadows of the Empire, so I don't agree. Dark Forces was a fun video games back in the day. But I prefer the story Rogue One told.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    Once again can't pick and choose it's part of the continuity fair-weather fan...you can always tell the one's that pick and choose
    People can pick and choose all they want. That's like saying that you can't be a MOTU fan if you don't like New Adventures. Or that someone can't be a fan of the Blues Brothers because they hated Blues Brothers 2000.

    For about two decades, the only Star Wars that there was, film-wise, was the original trilogy. That was before the dark times... before the prequels. And while George Lucas was heavily involved with all of it to some extent or another, the prequels were made under very different overall circumstances than the original trilogy.

    It's been pretty well established that Lucas is a good "ideas" man, but those ideas tend to work best when filtered through other talented people who can take those crazy ideas that are creative, but all over the place, and mold & ground them into quality films.

    Going into making the original Star Wars film, Lucas didn't have the "clout" that he had when he made the prequels. And other creative talents, with Gary Kurtz being just one example, helped mold and shape those original films... especially Star Wars (A New Hope) and The Empire Strikes Back. Beyond just the problems that happened during filming, the original film in it's initial cut that was never released to the public was a mess. This is specially stated in the documentary "Empire of Dreams," which was included on the bonus disc of the initial DVD release of the original trilogy. This was the only film of the OT that Lucas actually directed first hand, and it was largely saved in editing.

    The Empire Strikes Back, often being the most praised film of the original trilogy, and even of all of the films to date, ironically was the film that Lucas was the most "hands off" with out of the initial six movies (the OT and the prequels). He was still heavily involved, but Irvin Kirshner, who directed it, was given a decent amount of freedom with it. That combined with a lot of the same talent that helped mold the first film into what it ultimately became helped make a solid movie that many people loved.

    I'll circle back to Return of the Jedi in a bit, but first I want to move onto the prequels...

    The prequels were made under very different circumstances than the original trilogy, especially the fist two OT films. By the time those were being made, Star Wars had cemented itself in the public conscientiousness as a long lasting, highly recognizable part of pop culture. While it was popular from the time the original film came out in 1977, it proved to be more than just a fad. This is largely due to the changes is ushered in for the film industry as a whole, in addition to the merits of the films, themselves. As a result of this lasting popularity, George Lucas is seen as a "legend" by many people by the time the prequels are getting made. And many of the people working on the prequels with Lucas were kids at the time of the original films coming out. As a result, people are less likely to question him and his decisions. Lucas directed all of the PT films himself, and he was largely surrounded by people who wouldn't dare question him. A fair comparison would be that Lucas at the time of making the original Star Wars was kind of like Senator Palpatine in Episode 1.... in a definite position of power, but not beyond being questioned and challenged by others, with those combined influences effecting the end product of the films. By the time the prequels were being made, Lucas was the full-on Emperor that only the stupid would dare question or cross. And his bad ideas went unchallenged, hence all of the Jar Jar in Episode 1, and all of the whiny Anakin in Episodes II and III.


    Circling back to Return of the Jedi, at this point Lucas, power-wise, was more like Chancellor Palpatine in Episodes II and III (before the point where he becomes Emperor in Ep III). Much like the additional political power that Palpatine gained in going from Senator to Chancellor (and pulling strings behind the scenes in his favor, while maintaining the look of being a good guy), Lucas had a similar level of power at this point, and of all of the OT films, the circumstances around ROTJ bare the most similarity to that of the prequels.

    Now that the Star Wars franchise is resounding success with two highly profitable films under it's belt, and with Lucas raking in the cash from all of the merchandising, he was now in a position to take more control, including "getting rid of" people who stood in his way. Many of the people who helped shaped the first two films (like the aforementioned example of Gary Kurtz) were not involved with ROTJ. And while Lucas did not direct this film, it's generally well known that he had more of a guiding/controlling hand over director Richard Marquand than he did over Kirshner with Empire Strikes Back. And the end result, as you have stated in a few posts now, was a film where the storm troopers of the Galactic Empire are taken out by a tribe of teddy bears fighting them with sticks and rocks. Now I personally don't have as much of a problem with the Ewoks as I do Jar Jar Binks, for example, but I do see the silliness in that.

    The bottom line is that the more control Lucas got over things, the more the overall average quality suffered. That "damage" was relatively minimal during the time period where the only films that existed were the OT. Once the prequels came out, the balance tilted the opposite way. I won't say that the prequels are completely without merit or good points, but they are VERY bogged down by the lesser aspects.

    The new films since Disney took over thus far IMO have managed to avoid many of the problems of the prequels. But they (especially The Force Awakens) played it too safe by trying to be too much like the original popular films down to rehashing major plot points. If they can maintain the quality and "feel" of those early films while going in new directions and not rehashing too many old plot points, they should be golden going forward.
    Last edited by Dynamo of Eternia; September 14, 2017 at 09:00am.
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    And who would love to see in 2020 that Disney releases the unscrewed with original versions of the classic trilogy on blu-ray in 4K remastering?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    Once again can't pick and choose it's part of the continuity fair-weather fan...you can always tell the one's that pick and choose
    For someone that's all about source material how do you feel about them just erasing 30 years of Star Wars canon created in the novels and games? They existed first and, at the time, were given the green light by Lucas. I read and played a lot of it and loved it. Now I'm supposed to just forget it existed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    For someone that's all about source material how do you feel about them just erasing 30 years of Star Wars canon created in the novels and games? They existed first and, at the time, were given the green light by Lucas. I read and played a lot of it and loved it. Now I'm supposed to just forget it existed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    For someone that's all about source material how do you feel about them just erasing 30 years of Star Wars canon created in the novels and games? They existed first and, at the time, were given the green light by Lucas. I read and played a lot of it and loved it. Now I'm supposed to just forget it existed?
    agreed.


    i havn't bothered with any of the new books because of it. especially after the PC badly written mess that was aftermath.

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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Dad View Post
    I think I've deciphered what you were trying to say but as I said, I'm a pretty hardcore fan of the movies...not the expanded universe, with the exception of Shadows of the Empire, so I don't agree. Dark Forces was a fun video games back in the day. But I prefer the story Rogue One told.
    Dark Forces was MORE than a video game,books,trade paper backs,toys and the main hero went on to other things.... your right it was just a video game...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    For someone that's all about source material how do you feel about them just erasing 30 years of Star Wars canon created in the novels and games? They existed first and, at the time, were given the green light by Lucas. I read and played a lot of it and loved it. Now I'm supposed to just forget it existed?
    It's stupid and ever since Disney bought Lucasfilm they were STUPID not to use some of the stories you take 30+ years of stories etc. and say "Naa that didn't happen" but we still own the stories rights but will never use them...let's call it fan fiction...I mean "Legends" Ego's always get in the way with some people and Disney is NO different...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RockinHard View Post
    You know you got a be a "real fan" . . .
    No but some people here that say that stories etc. like the "Clone Wars" didn't happen in their world great fine good for you but last time I checked 6 Seasons on the cartoon (20 episodes from the first series) ,comic books,video games and a movie!! (Maybe those movie only people would watch it...) listen you don't have to like something but it IS part of the canon story what ever you want to call it...Listen I can't stand the NA Cartoon it was too kiddie and sometimes really off BUT I loved the Mini Comics and other stories that told the NA story but I'm not arrogant enough to think that "Didn't happen" it did...

    And for once when did all of the "Fan boys" decide what type of movie Star Wars (Original Trilogy & PT) last time I checked George Lucas started it and yes he had help but most of the ideas where his not anonymous Fan Boy or Fan Girl..Listen all 8 films have their flaws....I just want the "movie only" people to do some actual research and see that alot of people might know more than them and not because they "Pick and choose" it's because they read the whole books not just certain chapters....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    For someone that's all about source material how do you feel about them just erasing 30 years of Star Wars canon created in the novels and games? They existed first and, at the time, were given the green light by Lucas. I read and played a lot of it and loved it. Now I'm supposed to just forget it existed?

    I was a huge fan of flushing those 30 years. I found the EU to be extremely hit and miss. The 'continuity' was Canon for only as long as Lucas wanted it to be anyway... Heck, there are things in the original trilogy that that he dumped to make room for his prequels... so any idea that if Lucas had kept control for a new trilogy they would have honored the EU is just wrong. For Lucas things are Canon as long as they don't get in his way... and then they're out and his ideas are back.

    Disney is the same way. You simply can't keep 30 years of story out there if you want to make new movies for a new audience. Even amongst star wars fans the books weren't universally read. There were favorite authors and favorite storylines and characters... but the Wikipedia claims there were 1100 novels,comics,games making up the EU. SOMETHING was going to get cut.

    And in the long run I think they did a decent job. They claimed to have wiped it out (all of them) but then randomly pick and choose some fan favorite things that get brought back into the new continuity like Thawn.

    For me, it's really no different than any OTHER franchise/fandom out there. DC, Marvel, Transformers all have separate continuities for separate mediums... the whole multiple reality whatevers... Even MOTU. If they made a new cartoon or movie right now... I guarantee that Pre-filmation, Filmation, New Adventures and 200x won't all be a part of it. MOST of it will be jettisoned for their own version. The fact that Disney is continuing the story and not just rebooting it with new actors should be seen as a blessing in these days...

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I was a huge fan of flushing those 30 years. I found the EU to be extremely hit and miss. The 'continuity' was Canon for only as long as Lucas wanted it to be anyway... Heck, there are things in the original trilogy that that he dumped to make room for his prequels... so any idea that if Lucas had kept control for a new trilogy they would have honored the EU is just wrong. For Lucas things are Canon as long as they don't get in his way... and then they're out and his ideas are back.

    Disney is the same way. You simply can't keep 30 years of story out there if you want to make new movies for a new audience. Even amongst star wars fans the books weren't universally read. There were favorite authors and favorite storylines and characters... but the Wikipedia claims there were 1100 novels,comics,games making up the EU. SOMETHING was going to get cut.

    And in the long run I think they did a decent job. They claimed to have wiped it out (all of them) but then randomly pick and choose some fan favorite things that get brought back into the new continuity like Thawn.

    For me, it's really no different than any OTHER franchise/fandom out there. DC, Marvel, Transformers all have separate continuities for separate mediums... the whole multiple reality whatevers... Even MOTU. If they made a new cartoon or movie right now... I guarantee that Pre-filmation, Filmation, New Adventures and 200x won't all be a part of it. MOST of it will be jettisoned for their own version. The fact that Disney is continuing the story and not just rebooting it with new actors should be seen as a blessing in these days...
    That's all well and good if you create new material that's a hit with the fans. Instead we got Episodes I, II, and III


    I guess for me it's like this: what if suddenly He-man and MOTU took off in popularity. How many of us would be happy if they decided to use the Bio's created for the Classics line as the "official" canon?

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