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Thread: Zach Snyder's comments regarding Batman and superheros in general.

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    Heroic Warrior He-Kal's Avatar
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    Zach Snyder's comments regarding Batman and superheros in general.

    Just saw where Zach Snyder attacked criticism of how he portrayed Batman killing criminals and basically trashed the idea of superheros in generalhttps://www.cbr.com/zack-snyder-batman-killing-wake-up/
    Honestly, how was this guy EVER allowed to direct a super hero movie at all? His pessimism fits Watchmen but should have had no place in the mainstream comics world and I blame most of the reason DC has struggled so much due to him and the people at WB that supported him. When I watched JLA it was obvious that WB was trying so hard to get away from his vision and it almost worked but sadly failed in a lot of respects (even though they did fix Superman mostly). Thankfully WB has learned from it's mistakes and we have an apparently wonderful movie coming out in the form of Shazam. But, oooof--Just reading how negatively Snyder viewed the superhero genre in general clears the air on why it was a great thing he was taken out of the director's chair and should never touch a superhero film ever again....
    Last edited by He-Kal; March 29, 2019 at 01:02pm.

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    Catwoman...Hear Me Roar! Mikey's Avatar
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    Personally, I LOVE each and every one of DC Comics superhero movies, to me they are brilliant, despite the negative remarks made by people.
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    Heroic Warrior MJOLNIR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Kal View Post
    Just saw where Zach Snyder attacked criticism of how he portrayed Batman killing criminals and basically trashed the idea of superheros in generalhttps://www.cbr.com/zack-snyder-batman-killing-wake-up/
    Honestly, how was this guy EVER allowed to direct a super hero movie at all? His pessimism fits Watchmen but should have had no place in the mainstream comics world and I blame most of the reason DC has struggled so much due to him and the people at WB that supported him. When I watched JLA it was obvious that WB was trying so hard to get away from his vision and it almost worked but sadly failed in a lot of respects (even though they did fix Superman mostly). Thankfully WB has learned from it's mistakes and we have an apparently wonderful movie coming out in the form of Shazam. But, oooof--Just reading how negatively Snyder viewed the superhero genre in general clears the air on why it was a great thing he was taken out of the director's chair and should never touch a superhero film ever again....

    Agreed. The point of being a super hero is having an aspiring level of morals. That’s what separates heroes from regular people, or even villains. The uncompromising character to preserve life at all costs is why Batman and Superman admire each other despite having polar opposite personalities. It is what unifies all enhanced peoples who would fly under the banner of being the good guys.

    I do not have a social media account (man second time tonight I’ve had to say that) but read that Snyder said something to the effect that the person who criticized him “lives in a fantasy world”? Umm yeah, that’s exactly what comic books and their films are.

    I enjoy Snyder’s work. I think he is a very gifted director and have enjoyed his films but his dark view of the world may not be suited for every film. Super heroes are supposed to inspire us.

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    Master of DVDs BCI Guy's Avatar
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    I always thought it was odd that they gave the keys to a person who openly hated superheroes.

    Its probably too bad that Nolan's movies did as well as they did, as they became the template for the DCCU. But at least they now appear to have learned from their mistakes.

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    Heroic Warrior MJOLNIR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCI Guy View Post
    I always thought it was odd that they gave the keys to a person who openly hated superheroes.

    Its probably too bad that Nolan's movies did as well as they did, as they became the template for the DCCU. But at least they now appear to have learned from their mistakes.
    Yeah I felt that way about Tim Burton too.

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    Master of DVDs BCI Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MJOLNIR View Post
    Yeah I felt that way about Tim Burton too.
    I thought Burton was a brilliant choice.

    He somehow took aspects from the 60s, 70s and 80s versions of Batman and made it work.

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    Heroic Warrior diosoth's Avatar
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    I didn't mind Burton's first Batman movie. A few mooks died but less from Batman actively killing them and more due to accidents or issues in the fights. Things like that would happen. I did mind Joker falling to his death as it killed any chance of him ever coming back but plot-wise it wasn't a big deal. However Batman Returns was an issue- the idea of the mutant Pengiun wasn't bad on paper, but Burton was more wrapped up in his art style than the mythos with that one- I'd have much preferred a comic book Pengiun played by Donald Pleasance, who wold have been perfect for the role, but we got DeVito as a thing with flipper hands. Then the later sequels under a new guy tried to be live-action cartoons.

    That said, realistically, the "no kill" policy of many heroes does feel outdated and after a villain escapes so many times, it becomes on the hero and the jail that they pile up victims left and right. Batman knows the Joker will escape, he always does, and people are going to die. At what point does "redeeming the villain" become an invalid goal, how many do they have to kill before their own life isn't worth the effort anymore? We saw this with Carnage, he was forced sane recently, did a bad job as a hero then went back to being evil. His body count since he came around is in the hundreds, if not 9/11-tier. If Spider-Man can't live with himself for bashing Carnage's head in with a rock, knowing he saved hundreds more from being murdered... after a time it feels like the hero doesn't want the blood of one man on his hands directly but has it many times over indirectly. Then the jails refuse to issue anyone the death penalty, because many of these criminals dodge prison totally and go to mental hospitals where some idiot doctor thinks they'll treat this person. Nowhere in the real world would this be allowed over and over for repeat killers because the prison system and mental health systems wouldn't give killers a free pass multiple times.

    However killing villains means it ruins the status quo and you can't keep selling toys of them. It's why only the unpopular ones die off forever, and why the popular ones are costumed killers that have someone else take up the costume and name.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by BCI Guy View Post
    I thought Burton was a brilliant choice.

    He somehow took aspects from the 60s, 70s and 80s versions of Batman and made it work.
    He also came along at a time when Batman as faltering in popularity, with his film and Killing Joke being what the franchise needed to save it and even change it. Batman TAS further saved aspects of it, including Mr Freeze- who was a no-backstory ice pun gimmick villain that was killed off due to lack of popularity, but brought back due to his complete overhaul in TAS. Then Schumaker decided he wanted ice puns instead of the version people liked...

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    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    He sounds like a real peach. Hollyweird really mucks up comic movies. I always reference Kevin Smith's Superman experience, but it is a valid one. You have people who are not fans, who have no concept of the history of the character, directing and writing these movies. Fan boys could do it a lot better. GotG worked when people, including myself, thought it was going to be trash because you can tell the people who made it love it. There is a lot of heart and soul in those films and a whole lotta fan boy
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    Master of Physics VZX's Avatar
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    Ok, I could go on and on about Snyder and his comments. This is exactly why his DC movies has a lot of criticism. And yet he still says that if you don't like his choices on the changes to the characters then you are dumb. What a conceited blank blank. I am a HUGE DC fan for many reasons, but mostly because the heroes portray various wholesome attributes that we could strive to emulate to be better people. Batman, with all his darkness and vengeance, has that ONE line that he will not cross no matter what. And Superman also has that line for different reasons. To make these characters kill fundamentally changes them into different people. Superman should always be the ultimate Boy Scout: the golden standard for all other heroes. I liked Man of Steel and I did buy the Blu Ray, but I really hated the ending when he snapped Zod's neck, but I also did not like some little things: like when Clark was drinking a beer at home. Or when Jonathan Kent said Clark should have let the kids die on the bus.

    If Batman killed then he is basically the Punisher in a bat-suit: just another murdering vigilante. Batman should choose not to kill because then it would be his doom, his fall from a very delicate perch upon the border between sanity and insanity. I really liked how the show Titans handled that very concept about Batman. Not to mention the show Gotham. Or the many comics.

    Anyway, Snyder should stay far from DC.
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    President of Primus Ornclown's Avatar
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    Snyder was a great choice for film adaptations of Watchmen and 300... and because those were so well-received, by both casual and comic fans, DC gave him way more than he could handle.

    His vision of the DC Universe and its heroes and villains is a twisted, dark, and sad place. He was, without a doubt, the wrong choice for the job. Imagine if Joss Whedon or someone similar was tapped before DC started down the Snyder/Goyer path...


    With that said, I think the DCCU is correcting the ship with movies like Wonder Woman, Aquaman, and Shazam. And, I still think that they can salvage a Justice League 2 without the need for a reboot of any kind. There is a lot of potential there.

    Quote Originally Posted by BCI Guy View Post
    I thought Burton was a brilliant choice.

    He somehow took aspects from the 60s, 70s and 80s versions of Batman and made it work.
    I cannot agree more.

    Burton's Batman is a fantastic film with fun and quirky sensibilities that only Tim Burton can deliver.

    Plus, it still has the best representation of Joker (after the Arkham Asylum games, of course...)

    The Nolan Batman movies started to stray toward the end of Batman Begins, then missed the mark entirely with the sequels...
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    Heroic Warrior DC_WARLORD's Avatar
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    Zack is a guy who had Jimmy Olsen murdered as a way to "have fun with the character". ( his words ) He also thought Bruce Wayne should be raped in prison. He made it so that the Robin suit in BvS belonged to Richard Grayson.

    He should not be allowed anywhere near any mainstream heroes. Let him create his own characters, and then he can make Superhero movies with mass murder, rape, thousands and thousands of civilian deaths and casualties, cities destroyed, angry, bitter heroes, serial killers who eat babies, and an incredible amount of collateral damage.
    Last edited by DC_WARLORD; March 30, 2019 at 06:05pm.
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    Zack Snyder made some choices, some are actually good, some not so... he should have someone who can advise him effectively if he is getting off course, judging by the end product he seems he doesn't have an effective adviser.

    His DC take was promising but does not hit the target in the end

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    Quote Originally Posted by DC_WARLORD View Post
    Zack is a guy who had Jimmy Olsen murdered as a way to "have fun with the character". ( his words ) He also thought Bruce Wayne should be raped in prison.
    What in the actual eff? That is seriously messed up!
    In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

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    Skeletor's Right Hand Man Megalodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DC_WARLORD View Post
    Zack is a guy who had Jimmy Olsen murdered as a way to "have fun with the character". ( his words ) He also thought Bruce Wayne should be raped in prison. He made it so that the Robin suit in BvS belonged to Richard Grayson.

    He should not be allowed anywhere near any mainstream heroes. Let him create his own characters, and then he can make Superhero movies with mass murder, rape, thousands and thousands of civilian deaths and casualties, cities destroyed, angry, bitter heroes, serial killers who eat babies, and an incredible amount of collateral damage.
    And this because Warner Brothers and Fan boys wanted it "Darker" well you got what you want and it cost you DC...

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    Heroic Warrior DC_WARLORD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    And this because Warner Brothers and Fan boys wanted it "Darker" well you got what you want and it cost you DC...
    Truth.

    I am serious about Zack being "allowed" to do a JUSTICE LEAGUE knock-off movie. Let him get it out of his system. I mean, he does have his fans....there are people that like all those muted colors, dark shades of gray, and miserable, angsty heroes. But IMHO, Superman is one of many characters who should not be like that.
    Odd Man Out

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    Quote Originally Posted by diosoth View Post
    I didn't mind Burton's first Batman movie. A few mooks died but less from Batman actively killing them and more due to accidents or issues in the fights. Things like that would happen. I did mind Joker falling to his death as it killed any chance of him ever coming back but plot-wise it wasn't a big deal. However Batman Returns was an issue- the idea of the mutant Pengiun wasn't bad on paper, but Burton was more wrapped up in his art style than the mythos with that one- I'd have much preferred a comic book Pengiun played by Donald Pleasance, who wold have been perfect for the role, but we got DeVito as a thing with flipper hands. Then the later sequels under a new guy tried to be live-action cartoons.

    That said, realistically, the "no kill" policy of many heroes does feel outdated and after a villain escapes so many times, it becomes on the hero and the jail that they pile up victims left and right. Batman knows the Joker will escape, he always does, and people are going to die. At what point does "redeeming the villain" become an invalid goal, how many do they have to kill before their own life isn't worth the effort anymore? We saw this with Carnage, he was forced sane recently, did a bad job as a hero then went back to being evil. His body count since he came around is in the hundreds, if not 9/11-tier. If Spider-Man can't live with himself for bashing Carnage's head in with a rock, knowing he saved hundreds more from being murdered... after a time it feels like the hero doesn't want the blood of one man on his hands directly but has it many times over indirectly. Then the jails refuse to issue anyone the death penalty, because many of these criminals dodge prison totally and go to mental hospitals where some idiot doctor thinks they'll treat this person. Nowhere in the real world would this be allowed over and over for repeat killers because the prison system and mental health systems wouldn't give killers a free pass multiple times.

    However killing villains means it ruins the status quo and you can't keep selling toys of them. It's why only the unpopular ones die off forever, and why the popular ones are costumed killers that have someone else take up the costume and name.

    - - - Updated - - -



    He also came along at a time when Batman as faltering in popularity, with his film and Killing Joke being what the franchise needed to save it and even change it. Batman TAS further saved aspects of it, including Mr Freeze- who was a no-backstory ice pun gimmick villain that was killed off due to lack of popularity, but brought back due to his complete overhaul in TAS. Then Schumaker decided he wanted ice puns instead of the version people liked...
    Pleasence was already pretty old when he did H4 in '88 (BR was filmed in '91) , I'd rather have David Suchet as Penguin , I think hed be great back then but alas we will never know

    I thought Sanders protrayed Mr Freezes anger well in the old show , sadly he never returned in the role
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    Skeletor's Right Hand Man Megalodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DC_WARLORD View Post
    Truth.

    I am serious about Zack being "allowed" to do a JUSTICE LEAGUE knock-off movie. Let him get it out of his system. I mean, he does have his fans....there are people that like all those muted colors, dark shades of gray, and miserable, angsty heroes. But IMHO, Superman is one of many characters who should not be like that.
    See what always bothered me but not the dc honks that he changed characters so drastically like:

    Superman Murdering Zod..wait what?
    Batman Using Guns and killing people....Ahhhh no
    Flash being SUPER creepy and a germaphobe..He touches people then runs away? WTH?
    Wonder Woman...Making her a sex object for most of Justice League...Strong woman right?
    Aquaman as a "Surfer type dude" in JL and careless and reckless...no
    Cyborg....Don't get me started should have NEVER been in JL he's a teem titan for god sake

    And omitting Green Lantern,Martian Manhunter (They did MM on TV pretty good)

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    Quote Originally Posted by diosoth View Post
    I didn't mind Burton's first Batman movie. A few mooks died but less from Batman actively killing them and more due to accidents or issues in the fights. Things like that would happen. I did mind Joker falling to his death as it killed any chance of him ever coming back but plot-wise it wasn't a big deal. However Batman Returns was an issue- the idea of the mutant Pengiun wasn't bad on paper, but Burton was more wrapped up in his art style than the mythos with that one- I'd have much preferred a comic book Pengiun played by Donald Pleasance, who wold have been perfect for the role, but we got DeVito as a thing with flipper hands. Then the later sequels under a new guy tried to be live-action cartoons.
    I would have thought Donald pleasance was too tall for Penguin. I don't have the stats in front of me, but he doesn't feel like 'penguin' to me. Honestly, Danny DeVito as Penguin was GENIUS casting. He's the PERFECT actor for that job... My dream cast for Cobblepot. Just, Yknow… without the flipper fins. If he had played a straight up Penguin it would have been perfect, but the script got in the way of the actor as so often happens in these movies...





    Quote Originally Posted by Ornclown View Post
    Snyder was a great choice for film adaptations of Watchmen and 300... and because those were so well-received, by both casual and comic fans, DC gave him way more than he could handle.

    His vision of the DC Universe and its heroes and villains is a twisted, dark, and sad place. He was, without a doubt, the wrong choice for the job. Imagine if Joss Whedon or someone similar was tapped before DC started down the Snyder/Goyer path...
    After I saw Watchmen I REALLY wanted Snyder to do a Batman movie. the way he filmed those Nite Owl fight scenes in the alley and the jailbreak were utterly inspired. High powered martial arts beat downs that were both Cinematic and looked like it leapt off a comic book... YES PLEASE. The original 4 Batman movies sucked in the choreography because of that rubber suit... and The Nolan movies looked boring and stupid with turtled up and waving his shoulders 'realistic' fighting. During Watchmen those fights were EXACTLY what I wanted in a Batman movie.

    Superman was a waste of his skills... and I certainly didn't want to see Batman murdering people left and right and... everything else about his movies... but I'll confess when I heard Snyder was on Batman... I was downright giddy.

    Sigh....




    Quote Originally Posted by Ornclown View Post

    I cannot agree more.

    Burton's Batman is a fantastic film with fun and quirky sensibilities that only Tim Burton can deliver.

    Plus, it still has the best representation of Joker (after the Arkham Asylum games, of course...)

    The Nolan Batman movies started to stray toward the end of Batman Begins, then missed the mark entirely with the sequels...
    Yep! Gotta agree there. I love Jack as Joker. That combination of funny, crazy and dangerous was epic. Everyone else just wants to focus on the 'evil' aspects and don't make him really... crazy enough.

    Ledger played a great character and a great villain... but it was a terrible Joker. It was it's own animal. I think Phoenix will be the same thing. I'm not getting any kind of a 'Joker' Vibe from him.

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