Page 124 of 125 FirstFirst ... 2474114122123124125 LastLast
Results 3,076 to 3,100 of 3111

Thread: The mysterious Savage He-Man variant formerly known as "Wonder Bread He-Man"

  1. #3076
    Über Fan Adam_Prince of Eternia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    7,038
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenloft View Post
    All of the maroon weapons bagged with the figure hypotheses hinge on the assumption that Mattel changed how they handled the promo and increased what they included in response to customer feedback.
    While interesting to entertain that possibility it is a pretty thin assumption based on zero evidence at the moment, no matter how logical we can make it sound.
    I do not think it is at all logical. If that were the case, then Mattel would have simply shipped the "missing" weapons to Hackenberg instead of two figures in response to her letter. A company is not going to give away more when they can give away less.

  2. #3077
    Heroic Warrior jzguitars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Edison, NJ
    Posts
    521
    Quote Originally Posted by Universe View Post

    This guy also clearly knows everything discussed about the mail away promotion, so he's clearly been reading these forums, and to me that's the biggest warning sign. I suspect he bagged them himself, although I can't explain how he'd have yellowed the tape.

    Just goes to show that all of our speculations here about what's legit and what's suspicious may be wrong!

    Edit: Also suspicious that one of his samples has paint wear on the hair. I've seen untouched MOC figures with poorly painted hair, but actual paint rubs seems less likely.
    It's not hard to duplicate yellowed tape....

    product-0508857001536070850-o.jpg
    https://www.eworldtrade.com/pd/perfe...g-tape/488431/

  3. #3078
    Heroic Warrior
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by Springor Spanior View Post
    All I ask is that folks take a look at these bagged and yellowy aged taped examples. I'm not trying to overstate their weight as evidence. I merely ask that we look at them and compare to the Fowler example. They are, at the very least, interesting.

    https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...nder-468486148

    https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...-man-516381261
    I agree all the bagged samples including the Fowler find itself are very interesting indeed. I wish we could demonstrate that ANY of them are actual samples of the mailer packaging then we could show the maroon weapons came with this figure as claimed by many unsubstantiated anecdotal reports instead of just to the same promotion with the Man E Faces extra weapons variant as their only known source.

    Also Interesting that to my knowledge none of the bagged figures have any clear traceable owner history provenance back to the original customers that participated in the promotion and thence to Mattel themselves.

    They just popped up as "finds" in the toy collector community without any specific ownership backstory.
    That alone makes them suspect. If any of them had clear provenance back to the original customer then the 3 get 1 offer would have been confirmed long before now.

    None besides clear copycat replicas of the Fowler bagged sample ever included the coupon because it was not yet proven it was the 3 get 1 offer that was the origin of the figure yet so customizers/fakers weren't likely to include it because most surfaced when the Wonderbread theory of origin was still dominant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Universe View Post
    Edit: Also suspicious that one of his samples has paint wear on the hair. I've seen untouched MOC figures with poorly painted hair, but actual paint rubs seems less likely.
    the scuffed hair paint rub "in the bag" is hilarious. Why would the figure have play wear in a shut baggie? These are fakes (or at the very least the baggie is) and the seller clearly is aware of the common public "consensus" that they come with a maroon sword and axe and the baggie style.

    Both of the custom fakes I made for my own personal collection have distressed hair in the same spot to simulate paint rub from play (and to show no yellow hair that was painted over).
    Mine would easily pass a cursory examination by photo as genuine, and could only be revealed as fakes by looking closely in hand at the waist inside the leg to discover it was painted not molded that color.

    Quote Originally Posted by jzguitars View Post
    I agree it isn't hard to duplicate aged looking yellow tape, the style of baggie, print a coupon, find genuine maroon weapons and a special edition figure or paint a believeable fake.

    I think all the bagged samples are intriguing and dubious at the same time. I think the many loose figures bought in lots are more authentic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam_Prince of Eternia View Post
    I do not think it is at all logical. If that were the case, then Mattel would have simply shipped the "missing" weapons to Hackenberg instead of two figures in response to her letter. A company is not going to give away more when they can give away less.
    I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I don't believe that she was ever "missing the weapons" but that no one got them with the promo figure. We know the Hackenburg figure came with nothing, that was the entire point of her complaint letter. We also know Mattel responded with a letter, two figures and other unspecified MOTU merchandise, with no mention of included weapons or armor for the figure she already recieved.

    I was hypothesizing that possibly Mattel took her complaint and perhaps other public comments like it into consideration and THEN decided to start including a few maroon weapons (likely a random selection) for the remainder of the promotion.
    While we have no proof such a chain of events ever happened, it is the running theory to explain any weapons that people seem to remember. but it is only a hypothetical attempt to include the baggied figures that supposedly came with weapons or claims that so and so had one and it came with some sort of maroon accessories. We need to obtain hard evidence to substantiate such claims that we are currently lacking.

    As interesting as the bagged figures and childhood recollections are the only actual evidence clearly states that the figure came with nothing and no mention was made of the shipping materials. We have to strictly stick to that as fact, but it doesn't stop us from speculating further. The whole thread was pure speculation until the only proven evidence surfaced in the last month give or take. We had long speculated the 3 get 1 offer as the origin and the approximate time of manufacturing long before it was confirmed to be an authentic MOTU figure. Now we must speculate further perhaps we can discover more evidence along the way to explain other remaing facets of the mystery.
    Last edited by ravenloft; December 22, 2020 at 02:31pm.

  4. #3079
    Heroic Warrior King Kahn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    nashville, tn
    Posts
    6,055
    Quote Originally Posted by Universe View Post
    Yeesh. The figures are legit, the bags look legit, and the story sounds fairly reasonable. I'm suspicious of the fact that he has two special edition figures and both have the short sword and axe, though. Our working theory is that these maroon weapons were created first for Man-E-Faces, then later may have been added to the special edition figure. Which means that the odds of another figure having the precise weapon configuration of the Fowler sample would be fairly low. Having two with the exact same weapon configuration would be extremely low.

    This guy also clearly knows everything discussed about the mail away promotion, so he's clearly been reading these forums, and to me that's the biggest warning sign. I suspect he bagged them himself, although I can't explain how he'd have yellowed the tape.

    Just goes to show that all of our speculations here about what's legit and what's suspicious may be wrong!

    Edit: Also suspicious that one of his samples has paint wear on the hair. I've seen untouched MOC figures with poorly painted hair, but actual paint rubs seems less likely.
    yeah, paint rubs, even in a bag like that is very very odd.
    cogito ergo doleo

  5. #3080
    Heroic Warrior Universe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    370
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenloft View Post
    I was hypothesizing that possibly Mattel took her complaint and perhaps other public comments like it into consideration and THEN decided to start including a few maroon weapons (likely a random selection) for the remainder of the promotion.
    While we have no proof such a chain of events ever happened, it is the running theory to explain any weapons that people seem to remember. but it is only a hypothetical attempt to include the baggied figures that supposedly came with weapons or claims that so and so had one and it came with some sort of maroon accessories. We need to obtain hard evidence to substantiate such claims that we are currently lacking.
    In my mind, this is also the theory that's the cheapest action that Mattel could have taken. While we've speculated that Mattel may have stopped sending special edition figures altogether after the Hackenberg letter, such an action would be the most expensive option: it means Mattel would have to write off any remaining costs associated with creating the special edition figure in the first place, and it would have cost Mattel MOC figures which they lose the opportunity to make profit from by selling them in stores. Scrapping the figure would have been the most drastic action to take.

    Alternatively, Mattel may have done nothing to address any remaining mail-away requests. They might have sent Barb Hackenberg a few figures so that she was appeased, and then just continued the mail-away as before by sending naked figures out to consumers. Certainly possible. Mulling over the likelihood of this scenario is a question of whether Mattel would have considered risking alienating additional customers by disappointing them with a naked figure the cheapest route.

    Someone at Mattel may have considered a third option, however, which would be to throw a few weapons into the remaining mail-away bags. This would have been just enough action on Mattel's part to keep customers like Mrs. Hackenberg from becoming irritated at the promotion reward. To me, this is the cheapest of all possible responses, particularly if Mattel had a supply of maroon weapons sitting in a warehouse with no other use after they'd decided to end the extra weapons Man-E-Faces promotion.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenloft View Post
    Also Interesting that to my knowledge none of the bagged figures have any clear traceable owner history provenance back to the original customers that participated in the promotion and thence to Mattel themselves.

    They just popped up as "finds" in the toy collector community without any specific ownership backstory.
    That alone makes them suspect. If any of them had clear provenance back to the original customer then the 3 get 1 offer would have been confirmed long before now.
    That's all true. We simply have very few anecdotes from people who owned the figures as kids. Of all the legitimate special edition figures that are out there in the world, I think there's ten or fewer actual, believable anecdotes of anyone owning the figure as a child that are known to the community. Further, virtually all samples that ended up in the hands of kids would have been pulled out of their bag (again, if they ever came in a bag). As far as believable bagged samples, we have 2 or maybe 3 total samples which even might be believable, and those are hotly contested.

    We don't even have any idea what the original mailer looked like. It's very likely that a mailer was used, however, despite our lack of evidence in its existence. This is why we speculate.

    We could certainly use more data points, though. Other than hoping that more (believable) stories or samples of the special edition figure crop up, we have a few questions we can ask the Hackenbergs to get more data. Once we have that information, we can present our findings to some of the folks at Mattel and see if it finally spurs some memories or leads.

    None besides clear copycat replicas of the Fowler bagged sample ever included the coupon because it was not yet proven it was the 3 get 1 offer that was the origin of the figure yet so customizers/fakers weren't likely to include it because most surfaced when the Wonderbread theory of origin was still dominant.
    Also because the Fowler's removed their high def scan of the coupon fairly quickly so only a few other people could create a plausible copy of it. I'm pretty sure the first scammer who was identified created a copy that was a clear fake, even though it was based on a scan of the original.
    Last edited by Universe; December 22, 2020 at 10:08pm.

  6. #3081
    Über Fan Adam_Prince of Eternia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    7,038
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenloft View Post
    I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I don't believe that she was ever "missing the weapons" but that no one got them with the promo figure. We know the Hackenburg figure came with nothing, that was the entire point of her complaint letter. We also know Mattel responded with a letter, two figures and other unspecified MOTU merchandise, with no mention of included weapons or armor for the figure she already recieved.

    I was hypothesizing that possibly Mattel took her complaint and perhaps other public comments like it into consideration and THEN decided to start including a few maroon weapons (likely a random selection) for the remainder of the promotion.
    While we have no proof such a chain of events ever happened, it is the running theory to explain any weapons that people seem to remember. but it is only a hypothetical attempt to include the baggied figures that supposedly came with weapons or claims that so and so had one and it came with some sort of maroon accessories. We need to obtain hard evidence to substantiate such claims that we are currently lacking.

    As interesting as the bagged figures and childhood recollections are the only actual evidence clearly states that the figure came with nothing and no mention was made of the shipping materials. We have to strictly stick to that as fact, but it doesn't stop us from speculating further. The whole thread was pure speculation until the only proven evidence surfaced in the last month give or take. We had long speculated the 3 get 1 offer as the origin and the approximate time of manufacturing long before it was confirmed to be an authentic MOTU figure. Now we must speculate further perhaps we can discover more evidence along the way to explain other remaing facets of the mystery.
    No, I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I do not believe that she was "missing the weapons" either. I am stating that not only is there no reason to believe that Mattel included the weapons in subsequent mailings in response to her letter, but that the fact that they offered her two figures suggests that they did not. Think about it: if the solution Mattel came up with to "make people whole" was to include the weapons in future mailings, then Mattel would have just sent her the "missing weapons" instead of offering her two figures. Companies are in business to make money. They are not going to take a loss on a promotion that is intended to turn a profit. And they are not going to offer a more expensive solution when they can offer a less expensive one. They are also not proactive in response to complaints like this. If one person out of however many participated in the promotion complained about the figure not having accessories, then they will send that one complainant something to make them happy, but they are not going to proactively make a running change to a promotion at a cost to themselves for everyone else, because evidently, no one else was bothered enough to mail a letter.

  7. #3082
    Heroic Warrior Universe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    370
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam_Prince of Eternia View Post
    Think about it: if the solution Mattel came up with to "make people whole" was to include the weapons in future mailings, then Mattel would have just sent her the "missing weapons" instead of offering her two figures.
    People who hadn't yet been offended by Mattel's naked toy didn't need to be "made whole." Barb Hackenberg believed that Mattel short-changed her, and Mattel agreed. So they sent her two MOC figures and supplemental materials to make her happy. I think it's very unlikely Mattel responded to all future 3-for-one requests by mailing out two MOC figures + supplemental materials. That was just for Barb Hackenberg and her kids, because they were the ones who needed to be "made whole."

    And they are not going to offer a more expensive solution when they can offer a less expensive one.
    You repeat this truism as if it's written into the company's bylaws, but the very existence of the special edition figure counters your argument. You're saying that the cheapest way to do a mail-away promotion is to have a figure created and repainted and then sent out to unsuspecting customers? You think this is the cheapest way to run a mail-away offer that promised only a "random toy"?

    They are also not proactive in response to complaints like this.
    This argument is undermined by the internal memos circulated at Mattel. Judy made a proactive recommendation to offer Mrs. Hackenberg a free replacement figure even though Mrs. Hackenberg didn't ask for one, and Mark Ellis took it a step further and sent two figures to Mrs. Hackenberg. That looks like a company that's trying to be proactive to me.

    If one person out of however many participated in the promotion complained about the figure not having accessories, then they will send that one complainant something to make them happy, but they are not going to proactively make a running change to a promotion at a cost to themselves for everyone else, because evidently, no one else was bothered enough to mail a letter.
    You're forgetting that Mattel didn't just placate the Hackenbergs with free toys - they admitted they were wrong in not being clearer about the toy consumers would be receiving. There's a good possibility that Mattel continued to be proactive by addressing this issue with any remaining mail-away offers because if it was wrong to mislead Barb Hackenberg, then it was wrong to mislead everyone. We don't know what action was taken, but there's a good chance something may have changed.

  8. #3083
    Heroic Warrior jzguitars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Edison, NJ
    Posts
    521
    Quote Originally Posted by Universe View Post
    You're forgetting that Mattel didn't just placate the Hackenbergs with free toys - they admitted they were wrong in not being clearer about the toy consumers would be receiving. There's a good possibility that Mattel continued to be proactive by addressing this issue with any remaining mail-away offers because if it was wrong to mislead Barb Hackenberg, then it was wrong to mislead everyone. We don't know what action was taken, but there's a good chance something may have changed.
    Or, they just let this promotion quietly die and never did it again...and pretended it never happened? It would explain why it seems to be limited to the Mid-West and why no one seems to have any recollection of it internally from Mattel.
    MOTU was very successful at this time and I don't see a huge corporation like Mattel changing their promotion based on one complaint. Actually, I don't even see why Mattel thought they needed this type of promotion at that time, the line was doing over $200 million and climbing steadily. All we know for sure is that the Hackenberg letter confirms this figure was naked, came with no accessories, and was the "wrong colors". Then we have an internal letter stating she may be right in her complaint, and then a follow up letter compensating Barb. We have no idea how Mattel handled her complaint beyond placating her with free items, but we know for sure this "Special Edition" is rare and has almost zero official acknowledgment from Mattel. It's my belief that if they did in fact add additional items, or if Barb's complaint held any real legitimacy within Mattel, SOMEONE would remember that. I think this Buy 3 get 1 free promotion was only a very small part of Mattel's marketing plan at that time and was quickly terminated due to Barb Hackenberg's complaint. That's how I see it.

  9. #3084
    Heroic Warrior
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by jzguitars View Post
    MOTU was very successful at this time and I don't see a huge corporation like Mattel changing their promotion based on one complaint. Actually, I don't even see why Mattel thought they needed this type of promotion at that time, the line was doing over $200 million and climbing steadily.
    The promo offer was a fantastic way to get all interested customers to drop 12 bucks (ads show figures going for 3.50 or so at the time) instead of just buying a single figure. Also it certainly would have hooked new customers on the line as they are instantly already invested by owning 4 figures. Easy way to move figures that perhaps were peg warmers too, as people searched for 3 different figures for the offer. Marketing genius, even if a few random customers complained about the free figure (we know at least one did) and had to be placated.

    I see this as a financial win for Mattel all the way around, they produce a cheap figure without packaging or accessories or mini comic and get the customer to buy three carded figures to get it. New customers would want to get more of the line afterwards now that their kids have some. Even if they had to give away a few figures to complainers or later tossed in a few weapons in with the mailer they still would be moving three carded figures every time probably well above their cost per unit to include any of the "free" stuff.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lich Leech View Post
    The Castle Grayskull weapons came on trees, like the TMNT weapons:

    https://i.imgur.com/5wahQGf.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/6pu40MY.jpg
    Ok so we know the original sprues included with Grayskull had the bird gargoyle elevator weight and turret cannon on the same mold tree. None have ever been found in maroon color so we can assume that they were never manufactured in maroon by clipping those segments off or blocking the injection mold to those areas. The small laser pistol could have actually been made in maroon but simply tossed away with the mold tree frame in the factory because:
    A.)Man E Faces already had a blaster (in orange) two would be redundant.
    B.) none of the vintage ads for the promo weapons show the pistol in the set. (so far as I know)
    C.) we know they assembled the shield center hub handle so therefore removed all maroon components from the tree in the factory rather than sending the entire mold tree of the weapons rack items to the customer as they did with Castle Grayskull.

    Now I ask how exactly was the extra weapons packaged with the carded "Many E Weapons"variant of Many E Faces? Examples of unopened free weapons still carded exist right?
    I would assume the extra weapons came in a small poly bag, right? Was it sealed on all sides? Was it simply folded or taped shut? Does it have the same style and material of bag and/or tape as the mysterious baggied figures with maroon weapons?

    IF the maroon weapons were ever included with the Special Edition He-Man then it stands to reason they were using the same packaging materials and methods from when the weapons themselves were produced for Man E Faces. Might lend some validity to the baggied figures if the identical baggy can be found in other products from Mattel.

    Figures from the Sears catalog or similar mail orders came in white or plain cardboard colored boxes with the figures and accessories bagged inside in compartments. How do those baggies compare to the mysterious baggied figures? Can we then hypothesize that is how the shipping package for special edition He-Man might have looked, a small cardboard box with a bagged figure inside?
    I doubt a padded envelope was ever used for a figure of that size (difficult for post office letter or envelope machinery to process without damaging) but I suppose it could be possible.

    - - - Updated - - -

    do any of the vintage promotion ads of the maroon weapons show an actual photo or are they all only illustrated? Do any ads state or actually show the maroon color or are they all black and white? Do any show the small Grayskull pistol or the Man E Faces packaging?
    Last edited by ravenloft; December 23, 2020 at 03:16pm.

  10. #3085
    Über Fan Adam_Prince of Eternia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2001
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    7,038
    Quote Originally Posted by Universe View Post
    People who hadn't yet been offended by Mattel's naked toy didn't need to be "made whole." Barb Hackenberg believed that Mattel short-changed her, and Mattel agreed. So they sent her two MOC figures and supplemental materials to make her happy. I think it's very unlikely Mattel responded to all future 3-for-one requests by mailing out two MOC figures + supplemental materials. That was just for Barb Hackenberg and her kids, because they were the ones who needed to be "made whole."
    Your entire hypothesis that Mattel included the weapons in future releases in response to the letter from Hackenberg is predicated on the notion that Mattel recognized the letter as representative of a groundswell of future complainants who felt "short-changed" by a naked repaint, so they took corrective action to preemptively "make them whole." If their solution was to include accessories with future releases, then that would have been good enough for Hackenberg too. That is why your entire hypothesis falls a part. It is just you trying to find ways to make things fit your preconceived narrative that the figure must have come with accessories, even though it is contraverted by the facts.



    Quote Originally Posted by Universe View Post
    You repeat this truism as if it's written into the company's bylaws, but the very existence of the special edition figure counters your argument. You're saying that the cheapest way to do a mail-away promotion is to have a figure created and repainted and then sent out to unsuspecting customers? You think this is the cheapest way to run a mail-away offer that promised only a "random toy"?
    It is a Buy-3, Get-1-Free promotion. Participants had to purchase three figures to get one. Three is greater than one. Do you even math, bro?



    Quote Originally Posted by Universe View Post
    This argument is undermined by the internal memos circulated at Mattel. Judy made a proactive recommendation to offer Mrs. Hackenberg a free replacement figure even though Mrs. Hackenberg didn't ask for one, and Mark Ellis took it a step further and sent two figures to Mrs. Hackenberg. That looks like a company that's trying to be proactive to me.
    Allow me to be as pedantic as you:

    pro·ac·tive adjective creating or controlling a situation by causing something to happen rather than responding to it after it has happened.

    It seems to me that responding to a customer complaint is reactive, not proactive.



    Quote Originally Posted by Universe View Post
    You're forgetting that Mattel didn't just placate the Hackenbergs with free toys - they admitted they were wrong in not being clearer about the toy consumers would be receiving. There's a good possibility that Mattel continued to be proactive by addressing this issue with any remaining mail-away offers because if it was wrong to mislead Barb Hackenberg, then it was wrong to mislead everyone. We don't know what action was taken, but there's a good chance something may have changed.
    Who was misled? No one was promised anything other than a free figure. And there is no evidence that there were any other complaints other than Hackenberg. If there was other correspondence in the Mattel archive about this promotion, then surely Neitlich would have included it to bolster his case.

  11. #3086
    Heroic Warrior
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam_Prince of Eternia View Post
    No one was promised anything other than a free figure. And there is no evidence that there were any other complaints other than Hackenberg.
    You and I are in agreement siding strictly with the facts:
    the figure came with nothing.
    Only one complaint customer is known, and she didn't get weapons or armor that she was complaining about (as far as we know from the letters) instead she recieved two other figures and other unspecified MOTU merchandise. There is no evidence that Mattel changed the promotion, added anything or ended it in response.

    There is no evidence that the maroon weapons came from any other source other than the Many E Faces with extra weapons.

    I fully believe that the Special Edition figure never included weapons; in response to customers or as afterthought additions afterwards.
    I don't believe it ever came with the coupon either if the Fowler specimen is to be believed as is from Mattel. I believe the owner of the figure not Mattel actually bagged the maroon weapons, promo coupon, and promo figure together because they all came from the same promotion but did not come together from the same exact source,; the coupon came from the store, the weapons from the carded Man E Faces figure from Mattel, and the promo figure came from the mail, three seperate sources in time, packaging and space.

    I think it came with nothing. That is all we have to go on from the actual evidence. It is up to the theorists to provide further proof to substantiate their claims. Although it came with nothing I do think it was bagged and boxed likely with a standard Mattel letter however.
    I believe that Mattel continued with the promotion until the dates they specified.

    Where we differ though, is I am willing to entertain speculative scenarios and hypothetical reasoning to attempt to tie in the mysterious baggied figures and maroon weapons, because most of the anecdotal stories seem to include them (I believe they bought Man E Faces and gave the weapons to the promo He-Man though.)

    The bagged examples are being presented as if they came that way. That needs to be discussed and investigated, either proven false or validated. Often a devil's advocate approach can uncover ideas or trails of inquiry that playing straight with just what can be proven would miss.
    Last edited by ravenloft; December 23, 2020 at 03:20pm.

  12. #3087
    Heroic Warrior jzguitars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Edison, NJ
    Posts
    521
    Quote Originally Posted by ravenloft View Post


    Ok so we know the original sprues included with Grayskull had the bird gargoyle elevator weight and turret cannon on the same mold tree. None have ever been found in maroon color so we can assume that they were never manufactured in maroon by clipping those segments off or blocking the injection mold to those areas. The small laser pistol could have actually been made in maroon but simply tossed away with the mold tree frame in the factory because:
    A.)Man E Faces already had a blaster (in orange) two would be redundant.
    B.) none of the vintage ads for the promo weapons show the pistol in the set. (so far as I know)
    C.) we know they assembled the shield center hub handle so therefore removed all maroon components from the tree in the factory rather than sending the entire mold tree of the weapons rack items to the customer as they did with Castle Grayskull.

    Now I ask how exactly was the extra weapons packaged with the carded "Many E Weapons"variant of Many E Faces? Examples of unopened free weapons still carded exist right?
    I would assume the extra weapons came in a small poly bag, right? Was it sealed on all sides? Was it simply folded or taped shut? Does it have the same style and material of bag and/or tape as the mysterious baggied figures with maroon weapons?

    Here's another fact to add to the investigation. Both Man-E-Faces (with the maroon weapons) and the Special Edition giveaway figure were produced in Taiwan, Castle Grayskull, however, was never produced in Taiwan, nor any of the parts included. So it is quite possible, and likely, that Taiwan was using molds to produce only the 5 maroon weapons. Especially since the Mattel Mexico factory (not Aurimat) was still producing Castle Grayskull in 1983 and would not have discarded the molds.
    And let's not forget that Taiwan was producing the weapons packs, which had gray versions of the same 5 weapons that came with Man-E-Faces. So I'm almost positive Taiwan had a specific mold for these 5 weapons, I doubt they would waste the effort to discard unwanted weapons off the Grayskull sprue, but I've seen Mattel do crazier things than that...

  13. #3088
    Heroic Warrior
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by jzguitars View Post
    Here's another fact to add to the investigation. Both Man-E-Faces (with the maroon weapons) and the Special Edition giveaway figure were produced in Taiwan, Castle Grayskull, however, was never produced in Taiwan, nor any of the parts included. So it is quite possible, and likely, that Taiwan was using molds to produce only the 5 maroon weapons. Especially since the Mattel Mexico factory (not Aurimat) was still producing Castle Grayskull in 1983 and would not have discarded the molds.
    And let's not forget that Taiwan was producing the weapons packs, which had gray versions of the same 5 weapons that came with Man-E-Faces. So I'm almost positive Taiwan had a specific mold for these 5 weapons, I doubt they would waste the effort to discard unwanted weapons off the Grayskull sprue, but I've seen Mattel do crazier things than that...
    Very interesting indeed. It is far more plausible then that there was a seperate mold for the weapons 5 group in gray or maroon from Taiwan rather than a modified Grayskull original tan weapons mold or discarded unused parts. That more readily explains the small pistol exclusion from the maroon and gray sets.
    I wonder then if there are any slight differences or mold imperfections that can be found on Man E Faces maroon or weapons pack gray accessories that are not found on Grayskull tan weapons rack accessories to comfirm this supposition? Or are they still identical?
    Last edited by ravenloft; December 23, 2020 at 05:00pm.

  14. #3089
    Heroic Warrior Universe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    370
    Allow me to be as pedantic as you
    Hey, guy. I am 100% supportive of arguments that counter mine. I appreciate it because it either gets me to either abandon my poorly-conceived theories, or it helps me to sharpen them. Either of those is a good outcome, IMO.

    Please, be more pedantic. You have a tendency to argue contrarian positions without putting much thought into your argument. That is to say: your arguments neither get me to improve nor abandon my position. I wish they would.

    In the mean time, let's try to be less insulting, shall we?

    If their solution was to include accessories with future releases, then that would have been good enough for Hackenberg too.
    I disagree. Barb Hackenberg was an angry customer, whereas the emotional state of other respondents was unknown. Mattel didn't need to send every customer two MOC figures + materials since there wasn't evidence that they were offended. These are two different situations.

    Secondly, you're arguing that Mattel sent two MOC fiures plus supplemental items to every person that completed a 3-for-one request after Barb Hackenberg. I think this is possible, but it's unlikely. You're going to have to cite, at the very least, circumstantial evidence that this happened if you want to get me onboard with the idea.

    It is a Buy-3, Get-1-Free promotion. Participants had to purchase three figures to get one. Three is greater than one. Do you even math, bro?
    I guess I should have been a bit more pedantic here. I'll rephrase: Mattel didn't need to create a special edition figure to do their "Buy 3, get one free" promotion. They could have just sent everyone a single weapon instead of a special edition figure, because all that was promised was a "Free toy selected by Mattel at random from appropriate category". By your logic, this is what they would have done, because "they are not going to offer a more expensive solution when they can offer a less expensive one", right?

  15. #3090
    Heroic Warrior Springor Spanior's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    139
    More fodder for discussion here. https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...gure-454141388

    I truly enjoy these testimonials from eBay sellers who claim to have received Special Edition He-Man as a child. I think it's fair to read many of these skeptically because the sellers' memories have been influenced by all of the information about the figure available on the web. Thus, one can find original owners who swear that this was a Wonderbread promo, for example. But this one stands out as convincing to me. I'm surprised there aren't more testimonials like this because I, like many of you, remember every single MOTO toy I received as a child. I remember every accessory and every detail about where and when it was purchased. So many of these people selling this promo figure have hazy recollections about their grandmother buying it because their grandmothers always do mail ins and such - and then apparently they left the figure at their grandmothers' place only to recover it 30 years later. But this guy is different. He is like me. He has his original collection and he remembers exactly what the figure did and did not come with. Yes, he did some research to bolster his claims, but take special note of his claim about Man-E-Faces. This is like 7 years ago, I think, so this story warrants special attention.

    By the way, I find it tedious typing out "Special Edition He-Man". I'd like to re-name him Ran-Dum Mailor, or Ran-Dum Man, or something like that. He looks like a young King Randor, anyway.
    I'm losing my edge, but I was there. LCD Soundsystem

  16. #3091
    Heroic Warrior
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by Springor Spanior View Post
    More fodder for discussion here. https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...gure-454141388

    I truly enjoy these testimonials from eBay sellers who claim to have received Special Edition He-Man as a child. I think it's fair to read many of these skeptically because the sellers' memories have been influenced by all of the information about the figure available on the web. Thus, one can find original owners who swear that this was a Wonderbread promo, for example. But this one stands out as convincing to me. I'm surprised there aren't more testimonials like this because I, like many of you, remember every single MOTO toy I received as a child. I remember every accessory and every detail about where and when it was purchased. So many of these people selling this promo figure have hazy recollections about their grandmother buying it because their grandmothers always do mail ins and such - and then apparently they left the figure at their grandmothers' place only to recover it 30 years later. But this guy is different. He is like me. He has his original collection and he remembers exactly what the figure did and did not come with. Yes, he did some research to bolster his claims, but take special note of his claim about Man-E-Faces. This is like 7 years ago, I think, so this story warrants special attention.

    By the way, I find it tedious typing out "Special Edition He-Man". I'd like to re-name him Ran-Dum Mailor, or Ran-Dum Man, or something like that. He looks like a young King Randor, anyway.
    I remember that one and I believe we discussed it here. I remember being super suspicious about how he wouldn't accept PayPal. From his story he clearly was aware of the discussion here (although notice the link has been deleted) and he claimed to watch a toy hunter type show.

  17. #3092
    Heroic Warrior Universe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    370
    Quote Originally Posted by Springor Spanior View Post
    More fodder for discussion here. https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...gure-454141388

    I truly enjoy these testimonials from eBay sellers who claim to have received Special Edition He-Man as a child. I think it's fair to read many of these skeptically because the sellers' memories have been influenced by all of the information about the figure available on the web. Thus, one can find original owners who swear that this was a Wonderbread promo, for example. But this one stands out as convincing to me. I'm surprised there aren't more testimonials like this because I, like many of you, remember every single MOTO toy I received as a child. I remember every accessory and every detail about where and when it was purchased. So many of these people selling this promo figure have hazy recollections about their grandmother buying it because their grandmothers always do mail ins and such - and then apparently they left the figure at their grandmothers' place only to recover it 30 years later. But this guy is different. He is like me. He has his original collection and he remembers exactly what the figure did and did not come with. Yes, he did some research to bolster his claims, but take special note of his claim about Man-E-Faces. This is like 7 years ago, I think, so this story warrants special attention.
    A pre-2020 sample that contradicts the accessories of the Fowler sample. Fair to be skeptical, but it's less obviously a scam than the last one we discussed. There's little reason to scam anyone here: whereas the last guy was trying to get more money for his figures by claiming they were in their original bags, this guy isn't: he has a legit sample of the figure and sword, he's only making claims about the figure's history which would not have inflated its auction price.

    If it is a legit story, it fits with what we've been theorizing about the figure's accessories. The Man-E-Faces bit would also remove doubt he may be misremembering that it was actually MEF that came with that weapon by the fact that he didn't own MEF.

    I don't suppose Worthpoint names the original seller ID if we had a subscription? We might be able to contact the guy and ask him.

    Quote Originally Posted by ravenloft
    I remember that one and I believe we discussed it here. I remember being super suspicious about how he wouldn't accept PayPal. From his story he clearly was aware of the discussion here (although notice the link has been deleted) and he claimed to watch a toy hunter type show.
    I would definitely be skeptical of sending someone money on eBay if they didn't accept PayPal, but we can tell by the pictures that the figure itself is legitimate. Whether or not he would abscond with all your money is another matter.

    I have had people try to rip me off with PayPal scam attempts before, though: someone claims to have sent you payment, tells you to check your email, lo and behold there's an "official" looking message which appear as though they actually paid you (of course, you check your PayPal account manually and you see that the money isn't there). I've also seen the phishing scams where "PayPal" sends you a normal looking email telling me that I need to update my password for suchandsuch reason. I report those people to eBay and it's never got me to stop using PayPal, but someone else might react differently.

    By the way, I find it tedious typing out "Special Edition He-Man". I'd like to re-name him Ran-Dum Mailor, or Ran-Dum Man, or something like that. He looks like a young King Randor, anyway.
    What about "SE He-Man", the way we called him "WB He-Man" for the longest time? I also like jzguitars idea of "Swiss Cheese He-Man".

    - - - Updated - - -

    To switch topics for just a moment, this sample is why I'm skeptical of our pronouncements about sprayed boots vs dipped boots Teela. This would appear to be sprayed, but the timeline would suggest dipped. I thought all Hong Kong Teelas were dipped but perhaps not.

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Mas...sAAOSwmtFf5CYk
    Last edited by Universe; December 24, 2020 at 03:24am.

  18. #3093
    Heroic Warrior
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    86
    Quote Originally Posted by Universe View Post
    What about "SE He-Man", the way we called him "WB He-Man" for the longest time? I also like jzguitars idea of "Swiss Cheese He-Man
    Promo figure or Promo He-Man or He-Man variant or promo variant are decent shorthand for "Special Edition He-Man" but I think I will go with "buy 3 get 1 free dude" in the tradition of the earlier supposed origin official title "Wonderbread" (wonder if it's real) He-Man, (and man someone spent a lot of bread on a weird figure they never had as a kid.)

  19. #3094
    Heroic Warrior Universe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    370
    Toy Hunter, apparently, is a real show that actually did a segment on WB He-Man. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR9SUYV3uag

    The YouTube clip was posted 7 years ago, so at least that part of the eBay seller's story seems to check out.
    Last edited by Universe; December 24, 2020 at 04:24am.

  20. #3095
    Heroic Warrior King Kahn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    nashville, tn
    Posts
    6,055
    Quote Originally Posted by Universe View Post
    Toy Hunter, apparently, is a real show that actually did a segment on WB He-Man. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR9SUYV3uag

    The YouTube clip was posted 7 years ago, so at least that part of the eBay seller's story seems to check out.
    Yeah, that is a clip of Scott "toy guru" though so it isn't like it isn't a bit biased.
    cogito ergo doleo

  21. #3096
    Heroic Warrior Night Stalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,110
    I've been mulling over Scott's videos for a bit now, and while I do think it gives us some pointers, it still doesn't answer the big questions. Where did all the other people outside of Michigan and Northern Ohio get theirs? Why was it created in the first place? If it was a production error, why were so many assembled before correction?

    I think the anecdotal (but compelling, imo) testimony pointing out A&P Supermarkets shouldn't be dismissed out of hand. Going by the locations of sightings/people that had the figure as a kid, you have the following states:

    Michigan
    Ohio
    WI
    West VA
    Western VA
    East TN
    NW North Carolina
    Pennsylvania
    NY
    NJ

    Obviously Meijers/Thrifty could account for MI and OH, but the other states didn't have Meijers stores. Most of the states had Krogers and IGA, but the only grocery store chain that they all had was A&P, whose territory was focused in the upper Midwest, Ohio Valley and lower New England.

    By the mid eighties, they had pulled out of the southern territory aside from the Appalachian region of TN/VA/NC/KY, which would explain why nothing south of there has ever been reported that I can recall. (A&P still had a few stores in North Florida, but I don't recall if any Savage HM figures were reported there.)

    There's also the assertion that the figures that came from A&P were not a mailaway promotion, they were in-store handouts. Several recall a "buy something/get something" deal, and the gentleman I spoke with recalled that it was a Toys R Us or Kaybee cross promotion with A&P in Ohio.

    So while the Meijer's promotion certainly could explain at least two states, what I'm thinking is that there were possibly several small promotions throughout the region. It wouldn't make sense for Mattel to partner with one relatively small batch of stores that nobody (at that time) outside of the Great Lakes region had ever heard of. Maybe A&P in some areas, maybe Toys R Us in some areas, maybe Krogers or IGA, etc? One commenter on a blog I read wrote that his came from a bicycle shop, and was free with the purchase of a MOTU bicycle. A multichannel promotion could certainly account for the wide scope of sightings in seemingly disparate places. Maybe there was even a promo with... Wonder Bread?

    The other possibility is that everyone that had this as a kid and remembers its provenance is wrong, and if they did indeed have it, it came from Meijer's Thrifty Acres and nowhere else. I don't think that's very plausible a theory, and I think we just may have hit the tip of the iceberg.

    But then there's still the question of why it was produced in the first place. The "Conan prototype" theory has long been discredited, and so have the "special dark He-Man for South America and Asia" theories. The majority aren't bootlegs, they were legit factory offerings. They weren't test shots.

    That leaves three possibilities: they were an error, they were an early prototype of a figure like Price Adam or Faker, or they were created specifically for this promotion.

    I don't think these were errors. Most production errors are caught within the 50-100 unit range. There seems to be several hundred of these in known circulation. "Overrun repaint" makes even less sense.

    Likewise, I don't think these were created specifically for a minor promotion in one geographic location. That's the equivalent of a custom batch of small-run figures, which is prohibitively expensive. They could have given away three carded figures for the cost of manufacturing these special one-offs.

    So, was it a prototype? We know that the timeline on Prince Adam basically rules him out. That would leave maybe one of the later variant figures like Battle Armor or Thunder Punch (which I doubt), Faker, or a yet unknown variant figure. Given how well most of the line is documented, I think we'd know about an unproduced variant He-Man. So, I'm leaning toward Faker.

    But then again, why were so many produced before Faker was radically redesigned? I can see Mattel running off a couple of thousand and some CEO saying "we can't charge money for that, it's an insult. Make him a different color or something so it doesn't look as blatant a cashgrab as it is." I guess it's as good a theory as any, and better than most.
    Most wanted Origins figures: Mighty Spector, Fisto's Cousin's Babysitter, and Mer-Man's Seventh Grade Crush.

  22. #3097
    Heroic Warrior jzguitars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Edison, NJ
    Posts
    521
    So I was watching the doc The Power of Grayskull the other day and there is an interview with Joe Morrison (former Mattel VP Marketing) where he states that Mattel made Conan product, packaging, and marketing materials that he himself presented to various retailers. Obviously this was in response to the suit brought by Conan Properties against Mattel for infringement and fraud. This struck a chord with me in our debate over the origins of the Special Edition figure so I did some research on the lawsuit.

    Here are the official court documents on that suit and subsequent judgment.
    https://casetext.com/case/conan-prop...NUMBER_GROUP=P

    It's an interesting read but to cut to the point, the main judgment that applies here is the court ruling that these two properties "were not significantly similar". This is a drastic simplification to the ruling but I use it here to project my point.
    Now, knowing that Mattel had in fact produced figures and card art for the purpose of pitching this line to retail (according to the statement by Joe Morrison), and were being sued for fraud and breech of contact, I would have to reasonably deduce Mattel used these products as evidence in their defense.
    Looking at the judgement in the case, and the supposition that the created product was considered in that judgment, I think it's safe to assume that Mattel's Conan figure was not simply a brown-haired He-Man. Had that been the case, I don't think the court would have ruled no significant similarities.

    I know this doesn't prove where this figure came from, but I think it's another piece of evidence towards scratching leftover Conan figures off the list.
    Last edited by jzguitars; January 13, 2021 at 01:07pm.

  23. #3098
    Heroic Warrior Lich Leech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Battle Ram Blog
    Posts
    4,272
    Quote Originally Posted by jzguitars View Post
    So I was watching the doc The Power of Grayskull the other day and there is an interview with Joe Morrison (former Mattel VP Marketing) where he states that Mattel made product, packaging, and marketing materials that he himself presented to various retailers. Obviously this was in response to the suit brought by Conan Properties against Mattel for infringement and fraud. This struck a chord with me in our debate over the origins of the Special Edition figure so I did some research on the lawsuit.

    Here are the official court documents on that suit and subsequent judgment.
    https://casetext.com/case/conan-prop...NUMBER_GROUP=P

    It's an interesting read but to cut to the point, the main judgment that applies here is the court ruling that these two properties "were not significantly similar". This is a drastic simplification to the ruling but I use it here to project my point.
    Now, knowing that Mattel had in fact produced figures and card art for the purpose of pitching this line to retail (according to the statement by Joe Morrison), and were being sued for fraud and breech of contact, I would have to reasonably deduce Mattel used these products as evidence in their defense.
    Looking at the judgement in the case, and the supposition that the created product was considered in that judgment, I think it's safe to assume that Mattel's Conan figure was not simply a brown-haired He-Man. Had that been the case, I don't think the court would have ruled no significant similarities.

    I know this doesn't prove where this figure came from, but I think it's another piece of evidence towards scratching leftover Conan figures off the list.
    I think that's very good reasoning. Thanks!

  24. #3099
    Heroic Warrior Springor Spanior's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2020
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    139
    I would love to see what Tony G and the Mattel team came up with for Conan. A Big Jim doll with a Conan head? Crazy stuff.

    But to turn back to the topic of the thread, I have always thought that the presence of the "belt gap" on Special Ed He-Man was the best proof that the figure was not a leftover Conan. I understand the “belt gap” to refer to the smooth part of the front of the loin cloth that appears on numerous figures starting in 1983 or later. My impression is that Mattel must have started using a new mold for the loincloth in 1983, and that mold simply contains less fine detail than the first one, producing the effect of a “gap.” By my observation, the belt gap shows up on numerous Taiwan figures stamped 1981 and 1982. However, none of the figures are what I would call the “test market” figures from 1982. That is to say, they are the later versions - for example, Beast Man with no white dots, Man-At-Arms with no red dots, Mer-Man orange belt, etc. etc. Hence, that is why I am asserting that the belt gap mold starts to appear in 1983 and later. (By the way, this has already been discussed extensively on the thread, so I don’t think I’m asserting anything novel here.). My point is that if Special Ed He-Man were a leftover Conan, the production of that figure would date back to the test market figures, which would then mean that Special Ed He-Man should not come with a belt gap.

    To be clear, for all of the Taiwan figures that come with a belt gap, there are also the same figures without (with the exception of Special Edition He-Man which seems to have it exclusively). The belt gap mold did not replace the old one; rather, it was likely put into commission due to increases in production. Thus, we see 1983 and later Taiwan issue figures with and without the belt gap. Given the very limited production of Special Edition He-Man, perhaps that is why the figure only comes with a belt gap.
    I'm losing my edge, but I was there. LCD Soundsystem

  25. #3100
    Heroic Warrior jzguitars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Edison, NJ
    Posts
    521
    Quote Originally Posted by Springor Spanior View Post
    I would love to see what Tony G and the Mattel team came up with for Conan. A Big Jim doll with a Conan head? Crazy stuff.

    But to turn back to the topic of the thread, I have always thought that the presence of the "belt gap" on Special Ed He-Man was the best proof that the figure was not a leftover Conan. I understand the “belt gap” to refer to the smooth part of the front of the loin cloth that appears on numerous figures starting in 1983 or later. My impression is that Mattel must have started using a new mold for the loincloth in 1983, and that mold simply contains less fine detail than the first one, producing the effect of a “gap.” By my observation, the belt gap shows up on numerous Taiwan figures stamped 1981 and 1982. However, none of the figures are what I would call the “test market” figures from 1982. That is to say, they are the later versions - for example, Beast Man with no white dots, Man-At-Arms with no red dots, Mer-Man orange belt, etc. etc. Hence, that is why I am asserting that the belt gap mold starts to appear in 1983 and later. (By the way, this has already been discussed extensively on the thread, so I don’t think I’m asserting anything novel here.). My point is that if Special Ed He-Man were a leftover Conan, the production of that figure would date back to the test market figures, which would then mean that Special Ed He-Man should not come with a belt gap.

    To be clear, for all of the Taiwan figures that come with a belt gap, there are also the same figures without (with the exception of Special Edition He-Man which seems to have it exclusively). The belt gap mold did not replace the old one; rather, it was likely put into commission due to increases in production. Thus, we see 1983 and later Taiwan issue figures with and without the belt gap. Given the very limited production of Special Edition He-Man, perhaps that is why the figure only comes with a belt gap.
    I've been speculating that the Special Edition He-Man was produced during the re-release of He-Man and Skeletor which hit shelves in 1983 as "The Original". With the 1983 dated letter from Barb Hackenberg we now know a rough timeline when the buy 3 get 1 figures were shipped. And with your observations, my theory that marketing simply asked the Taiwan factory for a run of different colored He-Man figures makes sense. Since Taiwan was in production of He-Man figures at that time, it would have been highly cost effective to produce a limited run for this promotion. This theory would also account for many Mattel employees having no memory or knowledge of the promotion as it would have been limited to one marketing department. And honestly, if this promotion was an effort to unload Conan stock or some other test run of figures, someone would have remembered this and it would have had to gone through multiple departments to happen. And like you point out, any Conan product was made either before or at the same time as the original 8-back run of MOTU, which does not match the molds of legitimate S/E figures.
    Now I need to dig up a re-release version of He-Man and compare the mold signatures with the known S/E figures.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •