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Thread: Mattel no longer owns the rights to MOTU?

  1. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfan87 View Post
    No company would ever structure a deal or contract in a way that they would wait 30 years to claim ownership of a property/IP.. That company might not even be around in 30 years. If a company bought the IP rights to MOTU in the 90's, they would would want to take ownership immediately, and get the changes on the copyrights immediately. A30-year wait on an investment would not make shareholders happy.
    There is a very good chance you are completely correct, but I still have my doubts. Whether a company accepts such a deal may depend on price, the relationship of the parties, other concessions and many additional factors. I wouldn’t say it’s impossible. You say no shareholder would be happy with that arrangement, Scott claims Hallmark was the purchaser, so here’s a tricky question, if you were a public shareholder of Hallmark, could you find a way to trust that management knew what it was doing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by King Kahn View Post

    Exactly. AS I stated pages ago and showed examples, TMNT is a good example of this when Nickelodeon/Viacom bought them.

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    but you can't just put a 'meaningless' statement on a box. It means something in a legal sense. Otherwise they could put King Kahn on all the boxes with a trademark lol.

    the markings on the boxes are there for LEGAL REASONS and a company isn't just going to let some other company do that since if they did it would actually hurt themselves legally if they were ever to go back to court. Mattel could say 'well see our name is all over it so we own it' and universal would say "no you do not, we do!" Mattel would counter with "Ok then why did you let us put our name on the packaging showing ownership for 30 years and do nothing then?

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    One thing being true in one case, does not mean it holds for all cases.

    Interesting hypothetical. In that case the contract would be controlling and you bring it to court as your best evidence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam_Prince of Eternia View Post
    This article is second-hand reporting. Its source is another article that does not cite any primary sources. It does not necessarily follow from this that all of the information therein is suspect, but it does list the year Sony acquired the license to produce a Masters of the Universe film as 2007, when we know it was in fact 2009, because there is an entire thread on this forum dedicated to this effort with contemporaneous records dating back to 2004.

    But the accuracy of the reporting is not really relevant, because 2023 being the year the license to produce a Masters of the Universe film reverts to the licensor is only a hypothesis that is being put forward to be the most charitable to the argument of Neitlich. It is effectively saying, "Let us presume for the sake of argument his premise that ancillary rights will revert to a primary rights holder in 2023 is true." It just so happens that the only ancillary rights with a 2023 expiration date are those. So this being to what he is referring would be one of the only ways for his premise to be true, even though he would still be wrong about the primary rights holder and the rights relationship.

    Disputing the dates, so that this could not be to what he is referring, actually takes away the only thing about which he could potentially be right, because he is absolutely wrong about everything else.


    I touched on this briefly 14 pages ago:



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    .
    I misread your statement. I thought you were asserting the film agreement expiring in 2023 as fact. If you just brought it up as a way to explain Scott’s mistakes as confusion rather than malice, I suppose that was nice of you. Still, I don’t think Scott pulled the year 2023 out of nowhere, so I continue to believe something is happening to the brand beyond the film license expiring.

    I appreciate you reposting info I missed. It seems like you are describing trade secrets. Information can be confidential without being a trade secret. I’m not accusing Scott of corporate espionage as if he smuggled a contract out of Mattel and posted it online. He provided a broad outline of a contract to which he claimed he had access. My opinion is that he’s mixed up terminology and likely made some mistakes, but the fact that he’s been repeating the same story for number of years without getting a letter from Mattel legal, leads me to believe there is enough truth in his statements that Mattel hasn’t tried to stop him.

    I admit I can’t really speak in detail to what documents Scott may have had or understood without access to them myself. I know he had Mattel lawyers to help decipher those docs so I’d hope he’d have at least a baseline grasp.

    A car is personal property and differs from IP in that IP is intangible, and contains what is usually referred to as a bundle of rights, which can be split among and exploited by multiple parties simultaneously. Who owns which rights and when they obtained them is the crux of this discussion.

    It’d be helpful for Scott to find some proof in a public disclosure to bolster his claim, I agree.

    Your last point is a good one. It may be easier for me to address in a post where I make my case for what I think happened. I may get to it in the next few days. Not sure anyone would want to read it and it’d be mostly speculation, but we are all speculating here to some extent.

  2. #777
    Über Fan Adam_Prince of Eternia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stinkor View Post
    I appreciate you reposting info I missed. It seems like you are describing trade secrets. Information can be confidential without being a trade secret. I’m not accusing Scott of corporate espionage as if he smuggled a contract out of Mattel and posted it online. He provided a broad outline of a contract to which he claimed he had access. My opinion is that he’s mixed up terminology and likely made some mistakes, but the fact that he’s been repeating the same story for number of years without getting a letter from Mattel legal, leads me to believe there is enough truth in his statements that Mattel hasn’t tried to stop him.
    Both of the contentions in your post cannot be simultaneously true: if there is no public record of the sale of an intellectual propery because it is being held in confidence, then Neitlich breaking that confidence in multiple publicly available videos on his YouTube channel would be a criminal offense. So which is more likely: that there are no records because the sale is being held in confidence and Neitlich is openly committing a criminal offense with no repercussions, or that there are no records because there was no sale and Neitlich is simply mistaken? Seriously, the lengths to which you are willing to go to give Neitlich the benefit of the doubt stretches incredulity.



    Quote Originally Posted by Stinkor View Post
    A car is personal property and differs from IP in that IP is intangible, and contains what is usually referred to as a bundle of rights, which can be split among and exploited by multiple parties simultaneously. Who owns which rights and when they obtained them is the crux of this discussion.
    That distinction is totally irrelevant. It is the claim of Neitlich that Mattel relinquished all of its rights to NBCUniversal, so we do not have to consider who holds which rights. When considering his claim, it is only that Mattel sold its remaining rights in the intellectual property, which is minimally worth multi-millions, but did not disclose the proceeds of that sale to the IRS or its investors, and continues to misrepresent to the public that it is a rights holder.

  3. #778
    Heroic Warrior King Kahn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stinkor View Post
    One thing being true in one case, does not mean it holds for all cases.

    Interesting hypothetical. In that case the contract would be controlling and you bring it to court as your best evidence.

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    A car is personal property and differs from IP in that IP is intangible, and contains what is usually referred to as a bundle of rights, which can be split among and exploited by multiple parties simultaneously. Who owns which rights and when they obtained them is the crux of this discussion.
    Well yes actually, what happens in one case def can effect others by setting precedent. Cases are built or destroyed on past precedents. What people are saying is there has never been any precedent where anything scott has been saying happened actually did. If there had been it would def have been used again and cited in other cases.

    If you continue with the car analogy you could equate it to someone selling the car but not reporting it like adam prince of eternia said but then the car gets sold in parts, someone buys the radio, another buys the engine etc. But here there is no proof the car was sold except for say the radio i.e. the entertainment rights/filmation rights.
    cogito ergo doleo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stinkor View Post
    I’m not saying Scott is correct about anything, but I felt that the personal attacks against him — calling him a liar, clown and fool and criticizing his work history — we’re in poor taste, so I took a break from the thread. I’d appreciate it if you would humor me and fill me in on what I missed.

    You are making representations about how IP law works and saying all sales have to transfer immediately. Now, is that true in every case? Can’t different deals be structured differently?

    I understand that you think the trademark notice is very important. I think we will learn a lot when we find out what the notice says in 2023.

    I’m going to politely suggest that if you are basing your legal knowledge solely on Wikipedia, you may not be all that well-informed and are perhaps oversimplifying matters.
    Wikipedia is an easy reference to send to people. Studies indicate that it is far more accurate than the general populace thinks and some college level courses allow it to be cited as an academic resource but yes you are correct but it is an easy share rather than sending 10 different links on IP law and ownership which no, I am not going to do because I’m not wasting my time on academic citations on a he-man forum when the Wikipedia article offers source citations in the footnotes and additional links you can pull up to further elucidate the question… like I did. In that way Wikipedia is a legit resource for research.


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    Quote Originally Posted by horseman1981 View Post
    No it’s not. What I’m stating is we were told everything was fine and it wasn’t. Same thing could be happening here. I’m not saying it is. When you work for anyone or company you always highlight the positive and never discuss the negative. Kind of the “Baghdad Bob” syndrome.

    I’m really tired of the BS line you guys keep beating that I think I live in the center of toy dome. I’m giving reports from my store. I’m not going to feel bullied over my thoughts and observations. No matter the market of any Walmart, I would be concerned if a line gets cleared out. I hope the line keeps going. In the end we all want more motu toys. But why my observations are hit with such large amounts of “you and your store don’t matter” is beyond me.

    And Dynamo, Im not trying to sound harsh, but it feels like you are minimizing any observation or opinion I have. Again, the written word is tough to figure out intent. So I apologize if I’m incorrect.

    Having watched the new show on Netflix…..I want every freaking toy that has to offer. My family and I are really enjoying it. This is the first time in years my son asked for toys on something.

    If you haven’t checked out the new He-man and the masters of the universe on Netflix, may I recommend giving it a go.
    Problem is you present stories from your store as if they are the norm when they are not but you defy that by repeating that they are everywhere because your store has so many. You’re not being bullied but reminded that your little vortex isn’t the example but an aberration based on the experiences expressed by people world wide and photographic and video evidence. If you are using Skeletor and He-man as evidence that they are plentiful and no one wants them it’s also misleading. Myself and others with experience in these retail chains have explained auto-replen a few times so that is not a good evidence based argument. I get it, you keep being told the same thing so maybe the take away is “oh, my perception could be wrong so maybe I should stop saying they’re so plentiful when we already know there are Covid related distribution issues”. You’re lucky you find things easier, maybe help some people out instead of telling them how they’re wrong all the time because… that’s how it comes off.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Parzival View Post
    Problem is you present stories from your store as if they are the norm when they are not but you defy that by repeating that they are everywhere because your store has so many. You’re not being bullied but reminded that your little vortex isn’t the example but an aberration based on the experiences expressed by people world wide and photographic and video evidence. If you are using Skeletor and He-man as evidence that they are plentiful and no one wants them it’s also misleading. Myself and others with experience in these retail chains have explained auto-replen a few times so that is not a good evidence based argument. I get it, you keep being told the same thing so maybe the take away is “oh, my perception could be wrong so maybe I should stop saying they’re so plentiful when we already know there are Covid related distribution issues”. You’re lucky you find things easier, maybe help some people out instead of telling them how they’re wrong all the time because… that’s how it comes off.


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    Fair enough. My area has always been good for toys because of the massive amount Canadian shoppers that come here…..well use to come here…..

    Comments like “your little vortex” are interpreted by me to be hostile and condescending. You may not intend that, but that jumps at me quite loud. My belief is, if I jumped up and said” these figures sell-out immediately and are selling like crazy, the line will go for years.” You’d agree with me. But just my little vortex can’t in any way be any part of any dialog for judging the health of the line.

    Again. There is no way we will ever see eye to eye on anything. I’m cool with that.

    Good journey.

    Edit… just to add….my local Walmart put the he-man figure up to $10 and skelly up to $11. They sold through looks like half the stock at the $9 price……perhaps it was to fast??? The mixed case has the $14.92 tag and when scanned says no stock or in route. But the manager thinks they are getting a price change and perhaps new sku. I thought it was interesting.
    Last edited by horseman1981; September 19, 2021 at 09:42pm.
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    So Retroblasting made an entire video ripping into Scott about his history with Classics, and partially, other notable names from the fandom and YouTube if you wanna find it there. Scott for his part didn't bite* and offered to be their guest and answer questions. It doesn't even touch on the 2023 issue and seems to be around RB's video about billion dollar corps doing fan-funded stuff, Scott's (from memory) no names mentioned response, and now RB intending to finish the fight. The last three words there are theirs!

    * Not strictly, but he's not helping either. The vid thumbnail says this is just the publicity I was looking for and since RB's video covered his own literal appearance in Classics etc, his choice of still for the video looks like a deliberate wind-up! But I'll let you decide.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sketchy Skeletor View Post
    So Retroblasting made an entire video ripping into Scott about his history with Classics, and partially, other notable names from the fandom and YouTube if you wanna find it there. Scott for his part didn't bite* and offered to be their guest and answer questions. It doesn't even touch on the 2023 issue and seems to be around RB's video about billion dollar corps doing fan-funded stuff, Scott's (from memory) no names mentioned response, and now RB intending to finish the fight. The last three words there are theirs!

    * Not strictly, but he's not helping either. The vid thumbnail says this is just the publicity I was looking for and since RB's video covered his own literal appearance in Classics etc, his choice of still for the video looks like a deliberate wind-up! But I'll let you decide.
    Everything I've seen from that channel seems like clickbait.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoffman View Post
    Everything I've seen from that channel seems like clickbait.
    Their channel used to be really great a few years back with retrospectives and repair videos, but over time it got harder and harder to watch their content. The negativity level is out the roof.
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  10. #785
    In Stereo Where Available Dynamo of Eternia's Avatar
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    I'm not trying to just crap all over RetroBlasting because I do like some of the content there... and I'm also not giving Toyguru a free pass because there is reason for a lot of the controversy that surrounded him over the years. But there's a lot of factual inaccuracies and crazy assumptions made in that video (some valid points are made, but other things are just incorrect). This is not an exhaustive list, but...

    -RB says that Scott purposely put his face on the Palace Guard head. In reality, the 4HM made that design without Scott knowing it until they showed it to him.

    -RB claims that it was Scott who pushed for all of the brands sold on MattyCollector (MOTU, DC, Ghostbusters) to be online exclusive and not to go retail. BUT...

    *MOTU Classics launched not terribly long after the 200X line failed to catch on with kids. Yes, we can blame case ratios and variants clogging the shelves for that problem. But none the less, from Mattel's viewpoint, they were ready to let it go dormant entirely again. It was an uphill battle to even get it made as an online collector's line.

    *DCUC was at retail to begin with. As sales were slipping, it shifted to the MattyCollector model to keep it going rather than have it stop entirely right then and there.

    *With specific regards to Ghostbusters, RB claims that it was Scott keeping it from going to retail, and then right after he left, suddenly Mattel decided to put it out at retail, as if Scott was the only factor preventing that. The reality is that Ghostbusters on MattyCollector launched when there was no new movie coming out (there was probably talks of one of the dozens of versions of Ghostbusters 3 at the time happening, but of course that never really materialized). The Matty figures got mass retail versions released (using the same tooling) when the 2016 Ghostbusters movie came out. In general (not just from Mattel) there was a lot of merchandise based on the original movie being released in addition to anything based on the then-new movie because the brand as a whole was in the public eye again. It was a no-brainer to release already tooled figures based on the original film at mass retail, especially since the kept the scale the same for the figures based on the 2016 movie.


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    Quote Originally Posted by horseman1981 View Post
    Fair enough. My area has always been good for toys because of the massive amount Canadian shoppers that come here…..well use to come here…..

    Comments like “your little vortex” are interpreted by me to be hostile and condescending. You may not intend that, but that jumps at me quite loud. My belief is, if I jumped up and said” these figures sell-out immediately and are selling like crazy, the line will go for years.” You’d agree with me. But just my little vortex can’t in any way be any part of any dialog for judging the health of the line.

    Again. There is no way we will ever see eye to eye on anything. I’m cool with that.

    Good journey.

    Edit… just to add….my local Walmart put the he-man figure up to $10 and skelly up to $11. They sold through looks like half the stock at the $9 price……perhaps it was to fast??? The mixed case has the $14.92 tag and when scanned says no stock or in route. But the manager thinks they are getting a price change and perhaps new sku. I thought it was interesting.
    My apologies. I just have a very flowery way of writing. No offense meant but here, outside of that, isn’t really a place to see eye to eye when you’re saying they’re everywhere like you do when everyone is reporting they can’t find them in multiple places and countries. Were that not the case and you said “they aren’t selling and the line is going to die” I would say maybe you’re right. In this case though Mattel has repeatedly called out Origins in investor calls as a key to their continued success along with Jurassic World toys and WWE. That’s an indicator of what their top 3 brands are in boys toys or expectations of continued success for the line. You don’t invest millions into 3 lines for one brand unless you have faith in it and the people running it.


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  12. #787
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoffman View Post
    Everything I've seen from that channel seems like clickbait.
    Hasn’t stopped people from talking about Clownfish and Scott.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Parzival View Post
    Hasn’t stopped people from talking about Clownfish and Scott.


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    Well it certainly works.
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    .

    *DCUC was at retail to begin with. As sales were slipping, it shifted to the MattyCollector model to keep it going rather than have it stop entirely right then and there.

    Right here. People kinda laugh when I talk about DCUC being a failed line and talk about it’s depth but it really wasn’t a strong line at all. It got into the variant and repaint hard with putting out storyline based figures that really belonged better to DC Direct. It was when they started the Blackest Night stuff that I noticed sale just dropping hard.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviews2D View Post
    Well it certainly works.
    Fair enough


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    Quote Originally Posted by horseman1981 View Post
    I’m really tired of the BS line you guys keep beating that I think I live in the center of toy dome. I’m giving reports from my store. I’m not going to feel bullied over my thoughts and observations. No matter the market of any Walmart, I would be concerned if a line gets cleared out. I hope the line keeps going. In the end we all want more motu toys. But why my observations are hit with such large amounts of “you and your store don’t matter” is beyond me.

    And Dynamo, Im not trying to sound harsh, but it feels like you are minimizing any observation or opinion I have. Again, the written word is tough to figure out intent. So I apologize if I’m incorrect.
    Quote Originally Posted by horseman1981 View Post
    Comments like “your little vortex” are interpreted by me to be hostile and condescending. You may not intend that, but that jumps at me quite loud.
    It's not that there is anything inherently wrong with your opinions and observations of what is happening in your local store(s) in and of themselves.

    The issue is that you extrapolate that and assume that it is the case everywhere (or at least that is how it comes across), even in the face of multiple other people having observations that greatly differ from yours. While each of us is going to hold our own observations in a certain level of high regard, we need to be careful not to let our anecdotal observations take precedent over more substantial evidence to the contrary.

    While most anyone collecting Origins has of course seen numerous He-Man and Skeletor figures on the shelves, many have observed the amount of them dropping, going back up, dropping again, going back up again, etc. Either they are selling and being replenished, or a bunch of people nationwide with OCD have gotten into the habit of buying them and returning them regularly.




    My belief is, if I jumped up and said” these figures sell-out immediately and are selling like crazy, the line will go for years.” You’d agree with me. But just my little vortex can’t in any way be any part of any dialog for judging the health of the line.
    No, the point is that we are looking at what is happening in MANY PEOPLE'S "individual little vortexes" and comparing them to find a describable average pattern. If one person's observations of their "individual little vortex" greatly differs from what most others are seeing, it doesn't mean that the person's observations are necessarily wrong. It just means they don't match the greater pattern that paints the overall picture of how the line is doing.

    If hypothetically the figures were constantly selling out at your local store, but most everywhere else most of us observed them not selling (with no evidence of them selling and then being replenished, and with most figures... not just He-Man and Skeletor... sitting there "peg warming"), and you said ”these figures sell-out immediately and are selling like crazy, the line will go for years.” then no, I would not agree with you in that scenario.

    Even now under current circumstances, while I mostly agree with that statement (the line does seem to be selling well and it will likely be going for at least a couple/few more years), they still aren't "instantly selling out" since the He-Man and Skeletor figures still do sit there to some extent (they do sell, but not "instantly"), and it is somewhat hard to say what Mattel's long term plan is for the line..... they've already done figures beyond just remakes of those from the vintage line, but they've already gotten through a considerable amount of the original vintage figures in a little over a year's time. Do I think the line is ending anytime soon? No. Will the line still be going in 5 years? IMO it is hard to say at this time with any degree of certainty.

    But I don't think it is all doom and gloom by any means. And I'm not saying that you observations have no value. But you very much came across as assuming your observations to be the basis of how the line as a whole is doing, despite many other observations to the contrary. While perhaps not as directly (since were mostly focusing on your own observations and not overtly commenting on those of others), your statements arguably came across as being pretty much just as dismissive of the observations of others as you assumed Parzival's and mine to be of your observations since you didn't really take them into account when making your assessment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    It's not that there is anything inherently wrong with your opinions and observations of what is happening in your local store(s) in and of themselves.

    The issue is that you extrapolate that and assume that it is the case everywhere (or at least that is how it comes across), even in the face of multiple other people having observations that greatly differ from yours. While each of us is going to hold our own observations in a certain level of high regard, we need to be careful not to let our anecdotal observations take precedent over more substantial evidence to the contrary.

    While most anyone collecting Origins has of course seen numerous He-Man and Skeletor figures on the shelves, many have observed the amount of them dropping, going back up, dropping again, going back up again, etc. Either they are selling and being replenished, or a bunch of people nationwide with OCD have gotten into the habit of buying them and returning them regularly.






    No, the point is that we are looking at what is happening in MANY PEOPLE'S "individual little vortexes" and comparing them to find a describable average pattern. If one person's observations of their "individual little vortex" greatly differs from what most others are seeing, it doesn't mean that the person's observations are necessarily wrong. It just means they don't match the greater pattern that paints the overall picture of how the line is doing.

    If hypothetically the figures were constantly selling out at your local store, but most everywhere else most of us observed them not selling (with no evidence of them selling and then being replenished, and with most figures... not just He-Man and Skeletor... sitting there "peg warming"), and you said ”these figures sell-out immediately and are selling like crazy, the line will go for years.” then no, I would not agree with you in that scenario.

    Even now under current circumstances, while I mostly agree with that statement (the line does seem to be selling well and it will likely be going for at least a couple/few more years), they still aren't "instantly selling out" since the He-Man and Skeletor figures still do sit there to some extent (they do sell, but not "instantly"), and it is somewhat hard to say what Mattel's long term plan is for the line..... they've already done figures beyond just remakes of those from the vintage line, but they've already gotten through a considerable amount of the original vintage figures in a little over a year's time. Do I think the line is ending anytime soon? No. Will the line still be going in 5 years? IMO it is hard to say at this time with any degree of certainty.

    But I don't think it is all doom and gloom by any means. And I'm not saying that you observations have no value. But you very much came across as assuming your observations to be the basis of how the line as a whole is doing, despite many other observations to the contrary. While perhaps not as directly (since were mostly focusing on your own observations and not overtly commenting on those of others), your statements arguably came across as being pretty much just as dismissive of the observations of others as you assumed Parzival's and mine to be of your observations since you didn't really take them into account when making your assessment.
    Well said. Personally I think Masterverse will be the more long haul line with multiple iterations and lines to pull from while Origins seems MOSTLY focused on vintage figures. 200x Evil-Lyn in origins was more a repaint as beyond the colors and skin tones she doesn’t resemble 200x all that much.

    Masterverse is like Marvel legends, it’s primed to excel and already we know we are getting Revelation, New Eternia, PoP, and CGI figures in the next year or so. That leaves us with 200x and more vintage style (which I think will be the Revelation line personally). I look forward to New Eternia the most because it seems to be an even more adult version of MOTU than Revelation. Those Skeletor and He-man redesigns are straight up Taylor, Frazetta and Alcala. They also remind me a little of Mythic Legions. I also look forward to CGI collector figures as I really like the show.


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  18. #793
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parzival View Post
    Right here. People kinda laugh when I talk about DCUC being a failed line and talk about it’s depth but it really wasn’t a strong line at all. It got into the variant and repaint hard with putting out storyline based figures that really belonged better to DC Direct. It was when they started the Blackest Night stuff that I noticed sale just dropping hard.
    DCUC also suffered at retail because of the constant price increases due to oil and raw material. I don't remember the exact cost when it started out, but it was closer to $10 a figure, by the end of the line (not including the Matty releases) the cost per figure at retail was $17-18, and that can be a tough sell when most of their characters only came with a BAF piece.

    Series 5 didn't help the line by being a Walmart exclusive wave.

    As much as I prefer DC to Marvel, DC doesn't really cater to a younger audience outside of television. The DCUC figures were definitely meant for one or all groups, but got a different group entirely. It's a little hard to describe. I do remember on here people wanting just Super Powers Collection figures.

    The survival of DCUC should have been longer but it's like it was almost set up to fail because of reasons outside of Mattel's control. The Horsemen did a fantastic job with sculpts and giving us figure articulation that was new and what I believe to be the best and still seen today with Hasbro's Marvel Legends. DCUC also got characters outside of Batman and Superman at mass retail, that otherwise only would have seen a figure in comic shops through DC Direct. I don't think consumers were ready for DCUC at the time...

  19. #794
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    Quote Originally Posted by MossMan710179 View Post
    DCUC also suffered at retail because of the constant price increases due to oil and raw material. I don't remember the exact cost when it started out, but it was closer to $10 a figure, by the end of the line (not including the Matty releases) the cost per figure at retail was $17-18, and that can be a tough sell when most of their characters only came with a BAF piece.

    Series 5 didn't help the line by being a Walmart exclusive wave.

    As much as I prefer DC to Marvel, DC doesn't really cater to a younger audience outside of television. The DCUC figures were definitely meant for one or all groups, but got a different group entirely. It's a little hard to describe. I do remember on here people wanting just Super Powers Collection figures.

    The survival of DCUC should have been longer but it's like it was almost set up to fail because of reasons outside of Mattel's control. The Horsemen did a fantastic job with sculpts and giving us figure articulation that was new and what I believe to be the best and still seen today with Hasbro's Marvel Legends. DCUC also got characters outside of Batman and Superman at mass retail, that otherwise only would have seen a figure in comic shops through DC Direct. I don't think consumers were ready for DCUC at the time...
    I’m not disagreeing with you but it also did a lot of storyline figures that stunk up waves. Every time I got to my comic shop they have those figures cheap and the standard look figures are hard to find outside of the Super Powers reissues. I would have loved to see them go deeper. I’m grateful though that Masterverse isn’t going the Build A Figure route. It’s a good way to sell weaker characters when it’s a desirable figure but when it’s lame or the entire wave is lame, oy. Cannonball without legs? Though some shelf warmers for Legends are now expensive like the Jim Lee Rogue.


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  20. #795
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parzival View Post
    I’m not disagreeing with you but it also did a lot of storyline figures that stunk up waves. Every time I got to my comic shop they have those figures cheap and the standard look figures are hard to find outside of the Super Powers reissues. I would have loved to see them go deeper. I’m grateful though that Masterverse isn’t going the Build A Figure route. It’s a good way to sell weaker characters when it’s a desirable figure but when it’s lame or the entire wave is lame, oy. Cannonball without legs? Though some shelf warmers for Legends are now expensive like the Jim Lee Rogue.


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    The only storyline figures I recall them doing were the Blackest Night/Brightest Day and Public Enemies, both were current and had some media presence at the time. The Blackest Night/Brightest Day figures came out near the end of the line being at retail. Looking at this checklist, I'm only seeing those two waves (Super Friends if you want to include that one too) http://www.itsalltrue.net/?page_id=2038

    I do think it's a Mattel thing when they don't restock/reproduce waves that were in demand and short ordered or whatever, and just give us figures from that wave in 2-packs (Gentleman Ghost)...

  21. #796
    Heroic Warrior horseman1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    It's not that there is anything inherently wrong with your opinions and observations of what is happening in your local store(s) in and of themselves.

    The issue is that you extrapolate that and assume that it is the case everywhere (or at least that is how it comes across), even in the face of multiple other people having observations that greatly differ from yours. While each of us is going to hold our own observations in a certain level of high regard, we need to be careful not to let our anecdotal observations take precedent over more substantial evidence to the contrary.

    While most anyone collecting Origins has of course seen numerous He-Man and Skeletor figures on the shelves, many have observed the amount of them dropping, going back up, dropping again, going back up again, etc. Either they are selling and being replenished, or a bunch of people nationwide with OCD have gotten into the habit of buying them and returning them regularly.






    No, the point is that we are looking at what is happening in MANY PEOPLE'S "individual little vortexes" and comparing them to find a describable average pattern. If one person's observations of their "individual little vortex" greatly differs from what most others are seeing, it doesn't mean that the person's observations are necessarily wrong. It just means they don't match the greater pattern that paints the overall picture of how the line is doing.

    If hypothetically the figures were constantly selling out at your local store, but most everywhere else most of us observed them not selling (with no evidence of them selling and then being replenished, and with most figures... not just He-Man and Skeletor... sitting there "peg warming"), and you said ”these figures sell-out immediately and are selling like crazy, the line will go for years.” then no, I would not agree with you in that scenario.

    Even now under current circumstances, while I mostly agree with that statement (the line does seem to be selling well and it will likely be going for at least a couple/few more years), they still aren't "instantly selling out" since the He-Man and Skeletor figures still do sit there to some extent (they do sell, but not "instantly"), and it is somewhat hard to say what Mattel's long term plan is for the line..... they've already done figures beyond just remakes of those from the vintage line, but they've already gotten through a considerable amount of the original vintage figures in a little over a year's time. Do I think the line is ending anytime soon? No. Will the line still be going in 5 years? IMO it is hard to say at this time with any degree of certainty.

    But I don't think it is all doom and gloom by any means. And I'm not saying that you observations have no value. But you very much came across as assuming your observations to be the basis of how the line as a whole is doing, despite many other observations to the contrary. While perhaps not as directly (since were mostly focusing on your own observations and not overtly commenting on those of others), your statements arguably came across as being pretty much just as dismissive of the observations of others as you assumed Parzival's and mine to be of your observations since you didn't really take them into account when making your assessment.
    Agreed. I don’t want to come off as doom and gloom….if you recall my mattycollector days I was called a “cheerleader” and at Matty I was accused of working for mattel. I guess I’m putting motu under the microscope to much. It’s so nice to have it back at retail, I’m just sick over the very thought that it could end….I don’t believe it will though. Thank you very much for the detailed response. You didn’t need to even respond, the fact you did speaks volumes on your character. Thanks again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parzival View Post
    My apologies. I just have a very flowery way of writing. No offense meant but here, outside of that, isn’t really a place to see eye to eye when you’re saying they’re everywhere like you do when everyone is reporting they can’t find them in multiple places and countries. Were that not the case and you said “they aren’t selling and the line is going to die” I would say maybe you’re right. In this case though Mattel has repeatedly called out Origins in investor calls as a key to their continued success along with Jurassic World toys and WWE. That’s an indicator of what their top 3 brands are in boys toys or expectations of continued success for the line. You don’t invest millions into 3 lines for one brand unless you have faith in it and the people running it.


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    Thank you as well for the response. I really hate writing thoughts out. Mine never come out with the correct intent. I fully agree mattel seems happy with these. Like I just said to Dynamo, I’m putting this under the microscope to much out of fear of this leaving retail again. I guess that 200x line really scarred some of us.

    I know when the toy aisles are reset they often come with a paper blurb for employees to push. Every motu reset talks of the nostalgia and new media. So I’m looking to see if Walmart writes anything like that this time. Obviously I can’t read anything in to it. But it’s nice to see.

    Im expecting a bigger section for motu with the new show, but mattel has got to get more or the mixed sku out. Wwe like I said is shipping like I’ve never seen.

    Thanks again, and apologies if I sounded nasty at all, that was not my intent.




    On Retro Blasting….I’m sorry I shouldn’t sound so superficial because he makes some good points, but he looks like he gets his wardrobe from Castro’s old tailor.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MossMan710179 View Post
    The only storyline figures I recall them doing were the Blackest Night/Brightest Day and Public Enemies, both were current and had some media presence at the time. The Blackest Night/Brightest Day figures came out near the end of the line being at retail. Looking at this checklist, I'm only seeing those two waves (Super Friends if you want to include that one too) http://www.itsalltrue.net/?page_id=2038

    I do think it's a Mattel thing when they don't restock/reproduce waves that were in demand and short ordered or whatever, and just give us figures from that wave in 2-packs (Gentleman Ghost)...
    Many times it’s the owner of the property that dictates the make-up of a wave or series….in this case DC wanted a lot of current comic looks represented. Much like mcfarlane doing so much of the “Metals” figures. But I do remember at the time the lantern series really split fans. People wanting classic teams finished vs. new collectors wanting new characters and versions. Also like you touch on the price increases then we’re awful. The 6 inch iron man waves would jump ever few months…it’s like every company raced to be the first retail $20 figure. Sadly, that world wide economic decline is why I was able to buy so many toys I never had business owning. So many collectors had to let collections go just to pay bills.

    I think the only way I see a massive DC line ever again is maybe something like reaction or if NECA could secure rights ever. I really thought spinmasters would go deep but they really seem happy with selling the same 10 characters over and over.
    Comedian on the matty forums.

  22. #797
    Heroic Warrior Stygian360's Avatar
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    Is it just me or has this thread devolved into a trash talk Scott Neitlich forum? Frankly, the usable take away information stopped about six pages ago and is now being regurgitated for those who are coming in fresh. Humbly, I feel we've arrived at the answer. No one really knows for sure what's going to happen in 2023. Mattel marketing says it's full steam ahead with Masters into 2023. In the absence of Mattel coming here and doing an AMA or putting up a video of their own wherein they literally say the words, Scott is wrong, I think we all just need to take a breath and wait and see how it pans out.
    Harken the coming of Dragstor!!

  23. #798
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stygian360 View Post
    Is it just me or has this thread devolved into a trash talk Scott Neitlich forum? Frankly, the usable take away information stopped about six pages ago and is now being regurgitated for those who are coming in fresh. Humbly, I feel we've arrived at the answer. No one really knows for sure what's going to happen in 2023. Mattel marketing says it's full steam ahead with Masters into 2023. In the absence of Mattel coming here and doing an AMA or putting up a video of their own wherein they literally say the words, Scott is wrong, I think we all just need to take a breath and wait and see how it pans out.
    It's also silly, because what was true when Scott worked for Mattel may no longer be true. And Mattel isn't going to come out and detail their ownership structure, licenses, and contracts. But something being true today doesn't mean that a different, past truth that Scott outlined is wrong or a lie.

    - - - Updated - - -

    As for the Origins discussion, I don't think it's a long-term play, for the reasons that have been outlined here. They've already burned through a good portion of potential figures, and you could feel that right from the beginning. My takeaway? Origins was a deliberate play to pull fans back into collection through nostalgia, with the hope that it will also reinvigorate their interest in the property overall, allowing them to sell other lines like Masterverse, which is more suited to a wider figure base, where they can pull from all of MOTU history, and create new designs.

    Sure, it's possible that they can do other iterations in Origins, but I'm not sure that would work from a style perspective, and I think the line would start petering out pretty quickly.

  24. #799
    Heroic Warrior horseman1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stygian360 View Post
    Is it just me or has this thread devolved into a trash talk Scott Neitlich forum? Frankly, the usable take away information stopped about six pages ago and is now being regurgitated for those who are coming in fresh. Humbly, I feel we've arrived at the answer. No one really knows for sure what's going to happen in 2023. Mattel marketing says it's full steam ahead with Masters into 2023. In the absence of Mattel coming here and doing an AMA or putting up a video of their own wherein they literally say the words, Scott is wrong, I think we all just need to take a breath and wait and see how it pans out.
    I honestly forgot what the title of the thread even was.

    I would say on the rights….I have no idea…..honestly….I don’t care as long as I get toys and toons.

    This is an area that I’m smart enough to know, I’m not smart enough to know. I do find the info in here….and there is some…. quite interesting.
    Comedian on the matty forums.

  25. #800
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoffman View Post
    It's also silly, because what was true when Scott worked for Mattel may no longer be true. And Mattel isn't going to come out and detail their ownership structure, licenses, and contracts. But something being true today doesn't mean that a different, past truth that Scott outlined is wrong or a lie.

    - - - Updated - - -

    As for the Origins discussion, I don't think it's a long-term play, for the reasons that have been outlined here. They've already burned through a good portion of potential figures, and you could feel that right from the beginning. My takeaway? Origins was a deliberate play to pull fans back into collection through nostalgia, with the hope that it will also reinvigorate their interest in the property overall, allowing them to sell other lines like Masterverse, which is more suited to a wider figure base, where they can pull from all of MOTU history, and create new designs.

    Sure, it's possible that they can do other iterations in Origins, but I'm not sure that would work from a style perspective, and I think the line would start petering out pretty quickly.
    Scott claims the IP for MOTU was sold 30 years ago. Trademarks indicate that MOTU has never been sold to anyone (outside of things like the Filmation rights). There is no evidence of a sale anywhere, so either Scott was mistaken or he lied, but his constant doubling down on his claims is not a good look for him. The past "truth" that Scott claims is 100% false as far as any evidence that can be found shows.

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