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Thread: THE JOKER film origin story...with Scorsese producing?! Are you kidding?!!!

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Would you have preferred Superman to just show up and cross swords with Lex with no explanation of who he really is? The Krypton and Fortress of Solitude scenes scenes where we get to know Kal-el's family and who he is were among my favorite part of Superman. Rocky Balboa's life before Apollo Creed tapped him was essential in understanding Rocky's motivation and essence. Would it have been better to just have Spidey burst onto the scene and do battle the Green Goblin or did understanding Peter Parker's angst and his relationship with Norman Osborn make him i to a three dimensional character for viewers?

    Imo, great villains deserve no less of a reveal.

    As for The Joker, my inquiring mind wants to know 'why'

    Minimum half a billion in worldwide box office.
    I think the biggest issue here, is that you are describing the GOOD guys. We haven't had a drawn out origin for Lex or Apollo or any of the classic antagonists. Because then we WILL empathize with them. I like my character development to be reserved for the people I WANT to empathize with. I really have no interest in getting into the head-space of people who would blow up a bus full of babies...

    This just feels like a bad idea... but NOT for the reasons everyone else is saying :P


    Quote Originally Posted by Penny Dreadful View Post
    That said, my favorite POSSIBLE origin for the Joker is The Killing Joke. I think most would agree, this is the one that might come closest to the truth. Joker is the ultimate unreliable narrator, however, and he blatantly throws the entire thing into question with his “multiple choice” remark. If you haven’t read The Killing Joke by Alan Moore and Brian Bolland, then I highly recommend it (skip the animated adaptation). If a Joker origin film must exist, this is the story they should mine.
    Honestly I hate the Killing Joke origin. It doesn't fit the character at all. Even Alan Moore has disavowed it. For me, Joker was not some failed comedian. Getting dumped in that chemical made him crazy and disfigured him... but he still is a criminal genius and master chemist specializing in weaponized chemicals... He was always so much more than just some schmuck who had a bad day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    This is how I feel about Skeletor, which is why I am not a big fan of Keldor. There's something weirdly surreal about those 'agent of chaos"-type characters
    Absolutely agree here. I HATE Keldor with a passion. Darth Vader suprising us all with the fact that he's related to the hero was amazing.... EVERY other time I've seen that 'Evil secret Family' has been painfully boring. Making Skeletor, he-man's father's, illegitimate brother was sooooo weak. Add in any aspect that says 'only the certain bloodline can weild the power of Grayskull'. Boring and sucky. In my youth, Merman couldn't wait to betray Skeletor and gain the power of Grayskull... or Hordak... or Rokkon....


    Quote Originally Posted by Drunken Fist View Post
    I don't see the problem here. While I agree that the Joker works best when we don't know every detail about his past, he already has been given several origin stories in the comics, with no specific one nailed down as the "official" one. Whatever they come up with for the movie will just be one more potential origin tossed onto the pile, so as along as the movie is good, it's all hunky dory as far as I'm concerned. This will just be the origin the Joker believes in on that particular day.

    This is really the main reason I don't care about Joker's origin. He has one. He has MANY. This is not new territory. Heck, Superman and Batman have had half a dozen origin stories right now. Almost every version of the Batman media has given him one. He was the red hood as far back as the 50's, He was Jack Napier in '89, He was a gangster/hitman in Mask of the Phantasm, Zero city just redid his 'pre-joker' story... and now we've got the '3 Jokers' thing hovering around in DC with undoubtedly a few backstories thrown in too...

    It's really a weird place to draw a line in the sand... that this ONE character we can't get a 'real name' to... when deep down, it's completely worthless anyway. It was the chemical bath that made the Joker. The baby killing, smilex wielding, beat people to death with a rubber chicken joker did not exist before the chemicals. whether he was a quiet family man, a burglar, a hitman.... none of it REALLY matters to the person he is today. Batman can't prey on his old life in order to manipulate him like he could with Two-face of Man-bat... Joker don't care about none of that and if he doesn't remember... he doesn't WANT to remember...

    And I think that's the reason they always avoid it. Pre-Joker is boring... there's nothing about that guy still around... he wasn't in any criminal database... It's not like some jack the Ripper serial killer suddenly switched to clown based crimes... He was just... mundane, especially as far as gotham is concerned. They SHOULD have given us an origin and backstory back in the 50's because after 70+ years, anything they tell us won't live up to the hype they built.

    Still, for the world's greatest detective to have no idea at all who he could be?? That really feels unrealistic to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DC_WARLORD View Post
    The good thing is this: All these characters have been around for decades, and there have been multiple takes on them and their origins. Each one of us can enjoy whichever stories and movies we like, and simply ignore the rest. Easy peasy!
    LOL, yeah.... and considering the DC Movies have been nearly a complete wash already... why would it matter? Superman sucks, Batman Sucks, Wonder Woman is Okay... Suicide Squad sucked... So really if we are discounting everything else they've done... why act like their Joker will matter?

  2. #27
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    An origin story, might not be a full origin though... it could simply be what makes him obsessed with Batman... but not what actually makes him the Joker.
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  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Would you have preferred Superman to just show up and cross swords with Lex with no explanation of who he really is? The Krypton and Fortress of Solitude scenes scenes where we get to know Kal-el's family and who he is were among my favorite part of Superman. Rocky Balboa's life before Apollo Creed tapped him was essential in understanding Rocky's motivation and essence. Would it have been better to just have Spidey burst onto the scene and do battle the Green Goblin or did understanding Peter Parker's angst and his relationship with Norman Osborn make him i to a three dimensional character for viewers?

    Imo, great villains deserve no less of a reveal.

    As for The Joker, my inquiring mind wants to know 'why'

    Minimum half a billion in worldwide box office.
    See your a movie watcher not a comic book reader that's part of his mystique...I agree with the norm no they need to make other films that tie into the DCEU NOT list....And half a billion??? No maybe 1/2 that....

  4. #29
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    Precisely the point. It's a movie; not a comic book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    See your a movie watcher not a comic book reader that's part of his mystique...I agree with the norm no they need to make other films that tie into the DCEU NOT list....And half a billion??? No maybe 1/2 that....

  5. #30
    The First Avenger Megalodon's Avatar
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    But it's based on the book which the stories come from which alot of people read and know....
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  6. #31
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    I will respectfully suggest to you that a lot more people worldwide have seen the films than read the comic books.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    But it's based on the book which the stories come from which alot of people read and know....

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    I will respectfully suggest to you that a lot more people worldwide have seen the films than read the comic books.
    And your point?? You keep going away from the subject....Source material matters or anybody could make up a story or movie just because "they like it" that's well and fine in fan fiction but source material exists because how can you have a story on a long running medium and not use it....Doesn't happen and you can always tell the people that don't follow stories like these get mad or question something just because they don't know it but the people that made it do it because it was from the SOURCE MATERIAL and DID happen....

    So in the New Adventures of He-Man I can make up anything I want and totally disregard the SOURCE MATERIAL? Change He-Man's gender,make him have two heads and have him speak in Spanish even give him a lightsabre oops "Lightsword" and ignore the source material?
    Last edited by Megalodon; August 29, 2017 at 06:19pm.

  8. #33
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    The point is that producers and studios go to the largest market and they don't much care about source materials -- Transformers being a good example. I'm not endorsing that or saying it's right. And of course it infuriates those who are loyal fans and I get that. But it's sometimes -- not always -- the way it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    And your point?? You keep going away from the subject....Source material matters or anybody could make up a story or movie just because "they like it" that's well and fine in fan fiction but source material exists because how can you have a story on a long running medium and not use it....Doesn't happen and you can always tell the people that don't follow stories like these get mad or question something just because they don't know it but the people that made it do it because it was from the SOURCE MATERIAL and DID happen....

    So in the New Adventures of He-Man I can make up anything I want and totally disregard the SOURCE MATERIAL? Change He-Man's gender,make him have two heads and have him speak in Spanish even give him a lightsabre oops "Lightsword" and ignore the source material?

  9. #34
    Heroic Warrior gbagok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    And your point?? You keep going away from the subject....Source material matters or anybody could make up a story or movie just because "they like it" that's well and fine in fan fiction but source material exists because how can you have a story on a long running medium and not use it....Doesn't happen and you can always tell the people that don't follow stories like these get mad or question something just because they don't know it but the people that made it do it because it was from the SOURCE MATERIAL and DID happen....

    So in the New Adventures of He-Man I can make up anything I want and totally disregard the SOURCE MATERIAL? Change He-Man's gender,make him have two heads and have him speak in Spanish even give him a lightsabre oops "Lightsword" and ignore the source material?
    Dude, I think you're getting a little carried away with this. Every adaptation is exactly that, an adaptation. Going from one medium to another, from one canon to another, is always going to breed differences and maybe you or I aren't going to like the results, but that doesn't invalidate the effort. If it's awful, time will do that anyway. It's not like any movie they make will be the last word on the Joker either even if it's decent. Heck, as far as I'm concerned the whole falling into the chemical vat (which I thought was re-enforced in Suicide Squad) is still pretty much his most iconic (non mysterious) origin even if I don't really care about it being repeated in any and all retellings. I also don't think dreaming up a new origin for the Joker--who has several and always will--is the same as giving He-Man a second head in a new canon.
    Last edited by gbagok; August 29, 2017 at 06:54pm.
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  10. #35
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    No one said it's a 'new' origin story. Just because it's an origin story doesn't mean the vat needs to go. There's a lot more to him and what went into him -- hopefully stuff we don't yet know about -- beyond taking a dip.

    Quote Originally Posted by gbagok View Post
    Dude, I think you're getting a little carried away with this. Every adaptation is exactly that, an adaptation. Going from one medium to another, from one canon to another, is always going to breed differences and maybe you or I aren't going to like the results, but that doesn't invalidate the effort. If it's awful, time will do that anyway. It's not like any movie they make will be the last word on the Joker either even if it's decent. Heck, as far as I'm concerned the whole falling into the chemical vat (which I thought was re-enforced in Suicide Squad) is still pretty much his most iconic (non mysterious) origin even if I don't really care about it being repeated in any and all retellings. I also don't think dreaming up a new origin for the Joker--who has several and always will--is the same as giving He-Man a second head in a new canon.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by gbagok View Post
    Dude, I think you're getting a little carried away with this. Every adaptation is exactly that, an adaptation. Going from one medium to another, from one canon to another, is always going to breed differences and maybe you or I aren't going to like the results, but that doesn't invalidate the effort. If it's awful, time will do that anyway. It's not like any movie they make will be the last word on the Joker either even if it's decent. Heck, as far as I'm concerned the whole falling into the chemical vat (which I thought was re-enforced in Suicide Squad) is still pretty much his most iconic (non mysterious) origin even if I don't really care about it being repeated in any and all retellings. I also don't think dreaming up a new origin for the Joker--who has several and always will--is the same as giving He-Man a second head in a new canon.
    No I'm not getting carried away I see Warner Brothers instead of righting the ship with Wonder Woman they have to go back and do a 180 to something like this that doesn't make sense or tie into the DCEU in any way....Sorry I love DC & Marvel but Marvel tries to do the right thing and they have everything connected like it should be not a hot mess like DC TV And DCEU are they should be connected as well...after all isn't that what the comic book universe's do share the same universe and crossover??? If it was an Elseworlds logo on some of these DCEU films and TV it would make sense because that is a different story and a different world etc.

    That's like having a movie about WW2 Cap,Ultimate Captain America and the Reb Brown versions existing in the same universe at the same time..wouldn't that be confusing???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    The point is that producers and studios go to the largest market and they don't much care about source materials -- Transformers being a good example. I'm not endorsing that or saying it's right. And of course it infuriates those who are loyal fans and I get that. But it's sometimes -- not always -- the way it is.
    And how are those movies??? Most people that know them say they are horrible pieces of crap...They make alot of money that's it..I watch them and say Ehhh...It's a Michael Bay movie and move on...It's not like the 1987 Movie that was close to the actual Transformers....

  12. #37
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    *yawn*

    Potential new details have surfaced about the Martin Scorsese-produced Joker origin movie, characterized as “super-dark” and featuring a Clown Prince of Crime with a troubled childhood.

    That information comes from MMA fighter and actor/comedian Brendan Schaub, who discussed the project this week on Joe Rogan Experience. “My boy Todd Feldman put this together with Todd Phillips,” he explained. “It’s dark. It’s, like, a dark Joker. As a kid, he had a permanent smile and everyone made fun of him. It’s, like, on the streets of Brooklyn. It’s super-dark and real.”

    Feldman is the agent of Phillips (The Hangover), who’s writing the Joker movie with director Scott Silver (8 Mile) and producing alongside Scorsese. First reported last week, the film is part of a new Warner Bros. banner for DC Comics properties outside of the studio’s DC Extended Universe slate. Described as a hard-boiled crime story set in 1980s Gotham City, the Joker movie isn’t expected to star Jared Leto, who debuted as the iconic supervillain in Suicide Squad, but rather a new, possibly younger actor.

    Leto will reportedly reprise his role in Suicide Squad 2, which may not begin filming until fall 2018, as well as Gotham City Sirens and the planned Joker and Harley Quinn spinoff.

    http://www.cbr.com/joker-origin-movi...B-P&view=lista

  13. #38
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    You just answered your own question. Hollywood is almost all about the Benjamins. Don't kill the messenger. Hollywood is a business and they are out to make a profit. Samuel Goldwyn used to say "If you want to send a message then send a telegram."

    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    No I'm not getting carried away I see Warner Brothers instead of righting the ship with Wonder Woman they have to go back and do a 180 to something like this that doesn't make sense or tie into the DCEU in any way....Sorry I love DC & Marvel but Marvel tries to do the right thing and they have everything connected like it should be not a hot mess like DC TV And DCEU are they should be connected as well...after all isn't that what the comic book universe's do share the same universe and crossover??? If it was an Elseworlds logo on some of these DCEU films and TV it would make sense because that is a different story and a different world etc.

    That's like having a movie about WW2 Cap,Ultimate Captain America and the Reb Brown versions existing in the same universe at the same time..wouldn't that be confusing???

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    And how are those movies??? Most people that know them say they are horrible pieces of crap...They make alot of money that's it..I watch them and say Ehhh...It's a Michael Bay movie and move on...It's not like the 1987 Movie that was close to the actual Transformers....

  14. #39
    The First Avenger Megalodon's Avatar
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    Did you actually read the WHOLE post or just picked out what you Wanted?
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  15. #40
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    Just picked out what I wanted.

    Refreshing to get an honest answer, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    Did you actually read the WHOLE post or just picked out what you Wanted?

  16. #41
    The First Avenger Megalodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Just picked out what I wanted.

    Refreshing to get an honest answer, isn't it?
    Then my point was made as well too...

  17. #42
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    Absolutely, my friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    Then my point was made as well too...

  18. #43
    The First Avenger Megalodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Absolutely, my friend.
    Since you will never read the books I cannot argue a point that was already made....

  19. #44
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    I truly wish I had the time. And anyway, there's no need to argue it. You made your point and I completely respect your right to it and am not in disgreement with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    Since you will never read the books I cannot argue a point that was already made....

  20. #45
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    Anyone glad Dark Knight didn't do the origin thing again on Joker but kept him mysterious?
    "You killed Captain Clown, YOU KILLED CAPTAIN CLOWN"-Joker.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarryCanyon View Post
    Anyone glad Dark Knight didn't do the origin thing again on Joker but kept him mysterious?
    I would have preferred either having the scene of him falling in chemicals, or a flashback of Batman and him (or at least red hood) fighting over the chemicals... .Honestly I would have preferred the flashback method. There was something about the Nolan movies that just made it feel like the only adventures Batman had was the ones you watched him having... The rest of the time he was either retired or recovering or preparing... At least in Burton's it felt like when the bat-signal went on... it's because it was Tuesday and this was something he did ALL the time...


    I think they went TOO mysterious here... and at the same time too 'mundane'. Joker had no connection with Batman. No vendetta. It was at least implied that he was wearing makeup and wasn't even bleached... the smile was just a scar... "You want to know how I got these scars??" "Meh... any number of ways, so what??"

    Joker didn't really feel like Batman's Archnemesis in that series. Ledger made a fantastic anarchist... but Ra's trained Batman... Harvey and Batman/Bruce shared respect and hero-worship of each other... Even Bane was tied back in with Ra's for a personal connection. Joker didn't have that "I made you? You made me first!" two sides of a coin that Joker should have.

  22. #47
    Master of DVDs BCI Guy's Avatar
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    I thought this was going to be a huge, unnecessary waste of time, but the trailer is kind of great. Looks to be a really interesting character study.


  23. #48
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    this looks fantastic to me... hope its a hard R
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  24. #49
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    I have been sick to death of the Joker for quite a few years. Just glancing at the Jared Leto version annoys me like a swarm of mosquitoes. That said, this actually looks very interesting to me. I assume it's an Elseworlds type of thing, but I guess it won't be labeled that.
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  25. #50
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    Problem is I don't see the Joker, I see any generic villain character. No acid bath, just clown makeup. Promo pics show him in a red suit too. And again, no connection to Batman with his origin, so there feels like no reason for him to be obsessed with Batman when they do eventually meet. If it wasn't for some executive decisions claiming otherwise I would swear this was a DK prequel.

    Ledger was a crazy, destructive villain, he was not the Joker. I feel we aren't allowed to criticize that because Ledger died, but no acid bath, no bleached skin, no super laughing gas chemicals. Just some runny makeup, dyed hair and some puffy cheeks that were supposed to be scars but didn't look at all like a smile. Nolan's entire Batman franchise was stripped down, removing a lot of elements that should be there under the claims of "realism", so we got no batmobile, Bane without chemicals, Ra's al-Ghul with no Lazarus pit and a mispronounced name, while if he'd just stripped what few Batman elements were there they could have been decent standalone films. Honestly Ledger Joker would have been a better villain without the makeup or purple suit, he'd have been scarier as a new character.

    Gotham is the closest we've had since Nicholson to getting it right, but even then DC has pulled their "bat embargo" stunt with that and put limitations on their production- the first guy couldn't have the bleached skin. Second guy had to have purple hair. Now that he's fallen in the acid his skin is mangled and while the hair is now green it's a few strands. Sure Leto has the white skin and green hair but he has those nasty capped teeth, the tattoos that only seemed to annoy fans and really didn't add anything special(I don't dislike the IDEA of them but the actual tats look awful) and most of his scenes were shirtless. He also really had little time to shine as the Joker thanks to a mediocre script despite his attitude and mannerisms getting praise, with the sequel either in limbo or canned due to lack of interest.

    And I don't mind saying it but Telltale had a very good, very unique setup for their version, having him bleached with green hair before he went insane, being friends with Bruce yet manipulated by Harley, with a path through all the games that decided if he became the typical Joker or a hero, only to throw away both eventualities in a mediocre final game that wasted the hero version on bad writing and the villain version on his man-crush obsession with Bruce being his friend.

    The character really should not need to be this difficult to get right.

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