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Thread: Eddache examines the new She-Ra show and its character designs VS the 80s designs

  1. #1
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    Eddache examines the new She-Ra show and its character designs VS the 80s designs

    From Eddache on YouTube:

    "Let's examine how the team behind the Netflix series, She-Ra (2018), approached character design when rebooting the show and what we can learn from them!"

    Click here to watch!
    NOTICE: the video might contain some adult language. The views expressed do not necessarily represent the views of He-Man.Org.
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    Professor SkeleTorbeck Streamside's Avatar
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    This was quite enjoyable.


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    Council Elder Tallstar's Avatar
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    That was a great watch! I love that they used your comments from Power of Grayskull.
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    ▄ber Fan Adam_Prince of Eternia's Avatar
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    How did you drop the ball on this one, Jim?

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    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam_Prince of Eternia View Post
    How did you drop the ball on this one, Jim?
    I beat him to something for once.
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    Court Magician ZootyCutie's Avatar
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    Really neat watch! I'm hoping to get into animation as a career still, and character design is one of my favorite aspects of the industry, so I love seeing explorations like that.

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    Widget Radam's Avatar
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    Got bored watching halfway through this video. I don't like the designs but I still enjoyed the show regardless.

  8. #8
    Widget Silverhawk's Avatar
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    I don't like the balloon figure style animation either. There are so many cases of nowadays cartoons which were created in an awesome and great way: Netflix Dragon Prince or Castlevania or Voltron Legendary Defender. Plus what is annyoing me as well in nowadays movies and series and whatever you watch on TV: this SJW enforced attitude. We need to have a female in the lead position otherwise the women feel suppressed, we need to have a "horizontally challenged" character too, otherwise heavier people feel disgraced, we need to have a black character as well, otherwise one will say the series is racist, we need to add also a gay figure, otherwise they feel excluded. Seriously? Is this the underlining message we have to squeeze into any form of entertainment? You see it everywhere: from Star Wars, to Ghostbusters, to Star Trek to even the She-ra cartoon. Why can't one do entertainment without these over-enforced SJW components? There are so many examples (also older movies) which choose a healthy balance of adding these elements, but it stays entertaining. Nowadays it seems more important to be "socially just" in every thinkable context than "entertain"...it is often hypocritical, unrealistic and feels like constant product placement.

    And actually about the "androgynous" design and comment in the videoclip: Also here, delete every difference between man and woman. All has to be equal. Well, women and men are different and that's the cool exciting part of it. So why do we need now SJW to eradicate any difference? I'm starting to get worried about the young generation getting brainwashed with such entertainment. More and more young men walk around like women and more and more women walk around like men. Do we want that? The opposite sex still feels attracted to its opposite....but hey, who am I to judge...just my 5 cents of thoughts...if the large part of humanity is happy like that, then it's ok...
    Last edited by Silverhawk; February 10, 2019 at 06:34am.

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    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverhawk View Post
    There are so many cases of nowadays cartoons which were created in an awesome and great way: Netflix Dragon Prince or Castlevania or Voltron Legendary Defender.
    But that's just an animation style. There's nothing that dictates that a new She-Ra cartoon needed to be animated in that style.

    Plus what is annyoing me as well in nowadays movies and series and whatever you watch on TV: this SJW enforced attitude.
    That's a contemptuous term. People who use it seem to have an issue with people who support socially progressive views, and that baffles me. How exactly is it a bad thing to inject some diversity after decades of male-dominated TV and film?

    We need to have a female in the lead position otherwise the women feel suppressed, we need to have a "horizontally challenged" character too, otherwise heavier people feel disgraced, we need to have a black character as well, otherwise one will say the series is racist, we need to add also a gay figure, otherwise they feel excluded. Seriously? Is this the underlining message we have to squeeze into any form of entertainment?
    And why not?
    What is wrong with having a female lead? (this IS She-Ra, after all)
    What is wrong with having a heavier (fatter, if you prefer) character?
    What is wrong with having a black character?
    What is wrong with having a gay character?

    Is it because they aren't depicted exactly like they were 35 years ago? If so, then why is that a sticking point? Characters in franchises are changed all the time. Sometimes it works, some times it doesn't. But She-Ra is a franchise that supports diversity, and this new cartoon is able to embrace that more than before.

    After all, you do realize that women, that heavy and obese people, that people of African descent across the world and in Africa itself, and that LGBTQ+ people all exist, right?
    Isn't it about time they are also represented? Because if you think the world of entertainment isn't still populated heavily with white, male, straight characters, you have blinders on to the reality around you.


    You see it everywhere: from Star Wars, to Ghostbusters, to Star Trek to even the She-ra cartoon. Why can't one do entertainment without these over-enforced SJW components? There are so many examples (also older movies) which choose a healthy balance of adding these elements, but it stays entertaining.
    Healthy balance? You really should go back and review TV shows and films from the 80s and before if you think they were actually balanced.


    And actually about the "androgynous" design and comment in the videoclip: Also here, delete every difference between man and woman. All has to be equal.
    Adora is a teenage girl. What is the point of over-sexualizing her?
    She-Ra may be a taller, more powerful female figure. But nothing says she has to be over-sexualized either. Like the video talks about, women of all shapes and forms exist. A character should not have to be extremely feminine, voluptuous, endowed, etc in appearance to best physically represent a woman.
    I'm confused how people look at Adora and She-Ra in this cartoon and think she does not look female. If you watch the show, it's abundantly clear she is female. I get that your point of view on this probably comes from a comparison to the 80s version of She-Ra, but there's no reason to expect a repeat of that same design.

    I'm starting to get worried about the young generation getting brainwashed with such entertainment.
    One could also argue TV and film of prior decades brainwashed people into thinking a white, male, straight dominated world is the norm, and how things should be.

    More and more young men walk around like women and more and more women walk around like men. Do we want that?
    It's a diverse world. There are people who look different, or dress different, or simply are different. But IMO, the old saying of "the more things change, the more they stay the same" holds true. I walk around in the world just like you do. And the vast majority of women walk around looking very feminine. And the vast majority of men walk around looking very masculine. I think you have little to fear.
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    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverhawk View Post
    And actually about the "androgynous" design and comment in the videoclip: Also here, delete every difference between man and woman. All has to be equal. Well, women and men are different and that's the cool exciting part of it. So why do we need now SJW to eradicate any difference? I'm starting to get worried about the young generation getting brainwashed with such entertainment. More and more young men walk around like women and more and more women walk around like men. Do we want that? The opposite sex still feels attracted to its opposite....but hey, who am I to judge...just my 5 cents of thoughts...if the large part of humanity is happy like that, then it's ok...
    When you're making your case against things like this try and be more careful not to include phrases like this. Who is we? Who is the "we" you think you represent?
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    Heroic Warrior Marvelous0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    When you're making your case against things like this try and be more careful not to include phrases like this. Who is we? Who is the "we" you think you represent?
    He is referring to the millions of people who feel things need to be their way or not at all!
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    Heroic Warrior Lokus's Avatar
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    Well the reason for society being over obsessed with that combination of youth and beauty is because teens from around 17 yrs and up are hyper sexualized . Puberty is bombarding them with Chemical cocktails to speed up their maturation and reproduction . Sexual attractiveness is part of that package . We would have no need of age of consent laws if that was not a factor .

    You cannot hide behind She Ra being a teenager to explain away her flat chest . It's the exact opposite if you are in your late teens unless you are suffering from anorexia .
    This is not realistic or promoting diversity.
    Last edited by Lokus; February 10, 2019 at 06:18pm.

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    "Calm like a bomb." thexxwatcherxx's Avatar
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    Hey Val, I wanted to chime in on this issue. I completely disgaree with you, not because I don't believe in diversity, but because to me this is an issue of Tokenism. There is this youtuber I watch. His handle is YoungRippa59. I really enjoy his channel because he tackles many of these issues facing comics in an intelligent way. I am all for Diversity when it makes sense, but forced diversity though is something I completely disagree with. It isn't really being diverse or progressive. It's insulting because an existing character with their own history is pretty much being given a skin refresh. It's not progressive as much as it's just lazy or unimaginative. It should be insulting to people of color because instead of creating new unique charcaters who are ethnic/gay/etc. or developing older characters like Netossa, your just making an existing character a different color to fit that quota or to satisfy a group. You're throwing them a bone in a way.

    I am Hispanic and regardless of a character's color/sexuality, I could always relate to that TV show, cartoon, or movie if that characters were interesting and it was a good/great story. Such idea's such as the "Heroes Journey" are timeless and don't get boring if you like/love the character. I don't care if they are white or dark, straight or gay, religious or not, male or female if it's written and developed well. Most progressive characters are not written all that well. If a character is Gay, then they are the stereotypical gay person. How is that being progressive? Your make then a parody or just a stereotype. A one-note character. If a character is an empowered woman like say, Captain Marvel gender is always mentioned. The marketing for Captain Marvel and the media keep mentioning how Captain Marvel's an empowered woman! Not an empowered person. They have to make a big deal about her gender. Is that progressive if you have to point out she's a super hero who's a woman. They don't do this for male super heroes so why the need to point out Captain Marvel is a badarse because she's a woman. That's not progressive but tokenism and pandering.


    I enjoy entertainment not because I can relate to it but because it's a great story with great characters. If I need the existence of a Hispanic character for me to enjoy it better or feel represented and that representation gives me purpose then I really need to reexamine my own priorities.
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    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thexxwatcherxx View Post
    Hey Val, I wanted to chime in on this issue. I completely disgaree with you, not because I don't believe in diversity, but because to me this is an issue of Tokenism. ...I really enjoy his channel because he tackles many of these issues facing comics in an intelligent way. I am all for Diversity when it makes sense, but forced diversity though is something I completely disagree with. It isn't really being diverse or progressive. It's insulting because an existing character with their own history is pretty much being given a skin refresh.
    I can see how some people feel that way, but there are others who do not agree. So it becomes more about what one person doesn't like vs what someone else does like. And at the end of the day, no matter what we say, I think that will always be where we fall on this as a group.

    I'm fine with the changes and they make sense to me, and there are people who agree with me.
    Then there are people who dislike changes like this, like yourself, and there are people who agree with you.
    It's ultimately an impasse.

    Still, I wanted to talk about a couple things you mentioned.
    If a character is Gay, then they are the stereotypical gay person. How is that being progressive? Your make then a parody or just a stereotype.
    I agree that a character shouldn't be written as a stereotype.

    But, that hasn't happened in the new She-Ra cartoon. No one's defining persona is that they are gay. In fact, that has not been explored in the show. We just have indicators that characters may/may not be a certain sexuality.

    And in the instance of what you talked about before, where taking a character with a long history and changing them just to change them is a bit insulting versus needed is also something I think has merit. An example of that for me would be when they made Johnny Storm black in the Fantastic Four movie. That seemed like a forced changed, considering Johnny Storm had decades of an established story line. I still think it could have worked, given enough time to be developed, though. But with the way it was handled, it felt a bit forced.

    I enjoy entertainment not because I can relate to it but because it's a great story with great characters. If I need the existence of a Hispanic character for me to enjoy it better or feel represented and that representation gives me purpose then I really need to reexamine my own priorities.
    And I commend and respect you for that. But there are also examples of where this type of change has ultimately turned out to be fine and also embraced.

    Take how they changed Starbuck from male to female in the 2000s reboot of Battlestar Galactica. Fans cried foul at first, but she went on to be an extremely popular character.

    And in our own neck of the woods, take Zodak from 200x. Some fans were upset that he was made black. But he also went on to be a fan-favorite.

    I think part of the success for those changes is because none of those characters, especially our own MOTU and POP franchises, have that deep history you are talking about. A few of the characters have decently developed backstories, but none of them are decades-rich in story. Most have had surface-thin development. There's a lot of room for exploration. IMO, it's no different with the world of POP.

    It's also a different canon. It's not a running change where someone is just transformed suddenly in the midst of an existing universe.

    And while I definitely understand how some people may find a change into a race / gender / sexuality / etc of their own may be more insulting or tokenistic as you described, there are also plenty of people who do appreciate that change when it comes to representation.

    This cartoon is intended to reach a new generation of fans. It has plenty of nods to things we grew up with. But there's more than one generation so far who know little to nothing about MOTU and POP. And I'm seeing a lot of younger people online embracing this show. So I see these changes as beneficial thus far.
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    "Calm like a bomb." thexxwatcherxx's Avatar
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    Hey Val, I really enjoyed your response. It's so nice to have a conversation and it not turn into a full-blown argument. I wish there was more discourse and less gut reaction on the Org.

    I do agree with you on some of your points. When Starbuck was changed from male to female in the 2000s reboot of Battlestar Galactica there was a lot of drama surrounding it. agree there! What saved that decision was the actress' performance and the fact that she was such a fully realized character. Her character was also not insulting (as many gender swaps can be) because it wasn't being portrayed as "hey I'm a girl I can do it better." It wasn't a competition. She was just a soldier (not a female soldier mind you) fighting a war to save her people.

    Zodak from 200x at the time seemed like a token character, but as you said he became so popular that they made him his own character. He wasn't a color swapped stand-in for Zodac any longer, but a member of the cosmic enforcer's right along with Zodac. He had a great backstory because he didn't replace anyone.

    I know you're a comics guy so I know you will appreciate this. I remember when Marvel came out with the Ultimates. Nick Fury, who had always been a white character was made black. I hated that character because he was such a token character to me, but he became so popular when Samuel L. Jackson played him in the movies that Marvel introduced him into the main timeline as Fury's son. They didn't disregard a character's whole history and the fans who loved that character, but added to the mythos with that decision. Now I love Zodak and Fury because they have really been fleshed out. Can't stand laziness in my entertainment. If people would just put a little more time and effort in characterization I don't think people would be as upset.


    The new Bow is a perfect example of lazy. Bow has always been white. He had that porno mustache and always had a dumb one-liner. He was heroic and a little arrogant, but he still had a good heart. New Bow just seems so bland in comparison. He's the funny black guy!. To me, that's the main trait that sticks out. A one trick pony if you will. I wish instead of color swapping bow they would have made him a unique character. Call him Archer and have him have a bit more history then what he received. The rebellion could use more soldiers in the ranks. Not to beat a dead horse I will leave it at that. I appreciate this discourse Val. Your still one of the best in my book. Thanks for your time.
    Quoth the raven, `Nevermore.'

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    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thexxwatcherxx View Post
    I know you're a comics guy so I know you will appreciate this. I remember when Marvel came out with the Ultimates. Nick Fury, who had always been a white character was made black. I hated that character because he was such a token character to me, but he became so popular when Samuel L. Jackson played him in the movies that Marvel introduced him into the main timeline as Fury's son. They didn't disregard a character's whole history and the fans who loved that character, but added to the mythos with that decision. Now I love Zodak and Fury because they have really been fleshed out. Can't stand laziness in my entertainment. If people would just put a little more time and effort in characterization I don't think people would be as upset.
    That was an interesting time. Granted, I was not involved. And the info is probably out there. So take everything I say with a grain of salt.
    I can't remember if Land or Hitch was drawing, but that was around the time right before usage of people's likenesses became an issue. Prior to that, I know Jackson's likeness (or loose likeness) was used because they wanted him to be Fury if an Avengers movie ever was to happen. And it was either planned with Jackson, or it worked to help convince him.
    I don't think anyone complained about Jackson being Fury. I don't know anyone who doesn't love Jackson as an actor. And having him as the hardbutt Fury made perfect sense.


    The new Bow is a perfect example of lazy. Bow has always been white. He had that porno mustache and always had a dumb one-liner. He was heroic and a little arrogant, but he still had a good heart. New Bow just seems so bland in comparison. He's the funny black guy!. To me, that's the main trait that sticks out. A one trick pony if you will. I wish instead of color swapping bow they would have made him a unique character. Call him Archer and have him have a bit more history then what he received. The rebellion could use more soldiers in the ranks.
    Maybe he'll grow on you? This new version should get his time to shine as well.
    Plus, maybe you hit on something.. maybe a white guy with a porn 'stache who is supposed to be a teenager just didn't cut the mustard for 2018.

    Yes, I know Bow's 80s design was inspired by Errol Flynn. But, it's hard to make that look work these days. And it definitely won't work on a character that's meant to be a teenager in this new canon.
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    Cobra Saboteur Firefly's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what they were thinking with Sea Hawk's purple hair. A guy that sets boats on fire randomly probably would fit quite well with his original red hair. He and Bow seem to be the main comedy relief of the show.

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    Heroic Warrior Lokus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    I'm not sure what they were thinking with Sea Hawk's purple hair. A guy that sets boats on fire randomly probably would fit quite well with his original red hair. He and Bow seem to be the main comedy relief of the show.

    She Ra is a giant 10 year old boy and you are worried about Sea Hawks purple hair ?

    Umm Okay ......
    Last edited by Lokus; February 11, 2019 at 07:53pm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JVS3 View Post
    I don't think anyone complained about Jackson being Fury. I don't know anyone who doesn't love Jackson as an actor. And having him as the hardbutt Fury made perfect sense.

    I did and I am still furious that David Hasselhoff didn't get to reprise his role as Nick Fury!

  20. #20
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokus View Post
    She Ra is a giant 10 year old boy and you are worried about Sea Hawks purple hair ?
    The rules of this forum say to post constructive criticism. So, that's your final warning.
    Please don't post here any more if you're going to be like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melfis View Post
    I did and I am still furious that David Hasselhoff didn't get to reprise his role as Nick Fury!
    Oh no!
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  21. #21
    Heroic Warrior SuperMario's Avatar
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    I'd be ok if they said that this version of She-Ra is an alternate timeline Etheria then did a crossover episode with the original art style (like S4E10 "Trans-Dimensional Turtles" from the Nickelodeon Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles series). In a way it's lazy but it would also be a great fan service to those of us who want more of what we grew up on.

  22. #22
    Color'licious! JVS3's Avatar
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    What exactly does "lazy" mean to the few of you who have said this?
    Because, speaking as a comic book creator of nearly 20 years, I don't see anything lazy about trying to reboot a franchise. And that's in comics where I've seen the hurdles firsthand time and time again. So I can only imagine how hard it must be for people in the TV industry. And I personally see nothing "lazy" at all about anything done thus far in this She-Ra reboot.
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  23. #23
    Heroic Warrior SuperMario's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JVS3 View Post
    What exactly does "lazy" mean to the few of you who have said this?
    My specific use of the word is in relation to a hypothetical scenario in which it would essentially be a copy of what's happening in other franchises. In no way was I saying it to mean the writers aren't putting forth any effort.

  24. #24
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JVS3 View Post
    What exactly does "lazy" mean to the few of you who have said this?
    I'm just playing devil's advocate here but I can easily equate it to this: New Adventures of He-Man.

    Jack could have either have written the story with all the same basic side heroes and villains maybe slightly altered. Instead he created a multitude of NEW characters with new settings and new nearly everything.

    The She-Ra reboot is just a re-do with a different spin on all the characters. It's more like fan fiction than anything.


    My opinion
    : I like fan fictions. I like seeing different spins on characters I enjoy.
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  25. #25
    "Calm like a bomb." thexxwatcherxx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    I'm just playing devil's advocate here but I can easily equate it to this: New Adventures of He-Man.

    Jack could have either have written the story with all the same basic side heroes and villains maybe slightly altered. Instead he created a multitude of NEW characters with new settings and new nearly everything.

    The She-Ra reboot is just a re-do with a different spin on all the characters. It's more like fan fiction than anything.
    I agree with Dice on the definition of Lazy. I couldn't have said it better myself. In my opinion the show is very lazy because they just ticked off the quota boxes. Anyways I don't like the new She-Ra reboot, but I'm not the type to beat a dead horse. I will leave it at that and just agree to disagree with you guys. Thanks for entertaining my opinions and sharing yours Val. Again your the best!
    Quoth the raven, `Nevermore.'

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