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Thread: 4K/UHD/Blu-Ray etc. for "commoners" (i.e., non-tecchy people)

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    Hang in there, Bow! Mer-Man's Minion's Avatar
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    4K/UHD/Blu-Ray etc. for "commoners" (i.e., non-tecchy people)

    This thread is a "classroom" for those of us not "in the know" to learn about comparisons/advantages/etc. of 4K, Ultra HD, Blu-Ray, and all that stuff.

    I did a little Googling and found this site which is pretty helpful:

    What is 4K TV and Ultra HD?

    Do you tech-savvy people agree with this article and its recommendations?

    One thing I'm not sure about is this passage:

    Q: Do I need to sit nearer my TV to benefit from 4K?

    A: To get the best from 4K, it is recommended that you sit closer to your screen than you would with with HD TVs. The extra resolution and increased pixel density means you can sit further forward without spotting individual pixels. And filling up more of your field of view makes for a more immersive experience.

    There are ‘scientific’ charts in circulation suggesting that you must sit extremely close to appreciate the extra resolution at all. While we’d agree sitting close gives you the most impact, we reject the notion that you get no benefit at all from more distant viewing positions. Lines are still more cleanly drawn, you still perceive more depth, colours still look more subtly and smoothly rendered, and objects within the picture still look more solid and three-dimensional.


    I mean, we grow up with our parents telling us not to sit too close to the TV. Especially while working with computers etc. I wouldn't wanna sit up close.

    Is an HD TV "better" to sit farther away from? I may need to get a new TV in the future (the one I have has been going for over 16 years), and I do prefer to sit farther away from it rather than up close.

    So is 4K the new way to go? Is it better than an HD TV? When it comes to DVDs is 4K noticeably better than Blu-Ray?
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    Master of New Adventures!
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    Great thread, Mer-Man's Minion, and timely. So many of us low techers are struggling to keep up with the lightning speed at which technology and entertainment moves and changes. We're fortunate to have tech-savvy orgers we can rely on for information.

    You know, Kim and I have really been tempted to go with the 4K TVs. What I've seen is pretty amazing. But our concern is that there just isn't enough programming in 4K to make it cost effective. I'd really appreciate input from orgers. Thanks.

    Btw, my understanding from my limited research is that the curved screen is the way to go because it lessens the necessity of positioning oneself close to center of the screen. I'd appreciate input on this as well.
    Last edited by Heeeere's Olesker!; March 11, 2019 at 05:49pm.

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    Hang in there, Bow! Mer-Man's Minion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    ...our concern is that there just isn't enough programming in 4K to make it cost effective. I'd really appreciate input from orgers. Thanks.

    Btw, my understanding from my limited research is that the curved screen is the way to go because it lessens the necessity of positioning oneself close to center of the screen. I'd appreciate input on this as well.
    ^---Yeah, what he said! lol...thank you Mr. Jack, I think this will be a really good classroom and I'm looking forward to learning :-)
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    Master of New Adventures!
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    Me, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mer-Man's Minion View Post
    ^---Yeah, what he said! lol...thank you Mr. Jack, I think this will be a really good classroom and I'm looking forward to learning :-)

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    Heroic Warrior Riddle of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Btw, my understanding from my limited research is that the curved screen is the way to go because it lessens the necessity of positioning oneself close to center of the screen. I'd appreciate input on this as well.

    I was just in the market for a new TV about a year ago and explored just about every option so I can defiantly shed some light on that. When it comes to the curved screens, I'd pass and surprisingly it's not due to the tech of a crappy screen due to pixels or some other stuff etc.

    Do they look cool? I think so, but the main problem with them are the viewing angles. They're superb if it's just you or you and another positioned DIRECTLY in front of it in the best seat in the house BUT, if you plan on having multiple people watching things at the same time positioned all over the place it's a BIG problem.

    Due to the curvature, for obvious reasons, the guy sitting off to the side has a horrible vantage point. I know, the curve is subtle, but again, when comparing it to a flat screen in that regard I find the flat to be much better.

    Sure, it's never ideal even with a flat screen, but I can assure you that it's 10 times worse with a curved. Then, depending on what kind of lighting you've got going on in the background, that gets amplified as well. It just bounces all over the place. Glare central.

    My advise is to simply see it for yourself when you have time and take a quick trip to Costco or Best Buy etc. Just try standing in various areas as if you were sitting in a different spot of your living room and you'll see what I mean.
    Last edited by Riddle of Steel; February 28, 2018 at 03:06pm.

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    Hang in there, Bow! Mer-Man's Minion's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing, Riddle :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by Riddle of Steel View Post
    My advise is to simply see it for yourself when you have time and take a quick trip to Costco or Best Buy etc. Just try standing in various areas as if you were sitting in a different spot of your living room and you'll see what I mean.
    Or bring a lounge chair and some snacks, kick off your shoes, and tell them you are conducting research.
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    Avenge The Fallen Dynamo of Eternia's Avatar
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    While the increase in resolution does help, the biggest difference/improvement is HDR (High Dynamic Range). In simple terms, 4K UHD has this feature, and it offers a much, much wider color spectrum range that makes a big difference. I hesitate to go into more detail, mostly because I'm sure I'll butcher the hell out of explaining it. But with the right equipment (4K TV with HDR, a proper player, discs, etc.) you are getting a much better overall picture because of both the resolution and HDR, but with HDR arguably being the bigger factor out of the two.

    Hypothetically, if these new TVs and new disc format were still be in 1080P but with HDR, OR were to feature 4K without HDR, you would likely see the bigger difference with the former rather than the latter compared to regular Blu-Rays/HDTVs, etc.

    That would be something to look more into than the resolution difference.
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    Heroic Warrior Despara's Avatar
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    4K/UHD/Blu-Ray etc. for "commoners" (i.e., non-tecchy people)

    We have a 4K 65” curved screen TV. Maybe our living room isn’t big enough to have a bad spot, but I’ve never noticed anywhere that was a bad spot to watch TV. The curved screen seems to make it easier to see, but that’s just my observation.


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    Last edited by Despara; June 4, 2018 at 09:52pm.

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    Hang in there, Bow! Mer-Man's Minion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    In simple terms,
    Thank you Dynamo, that's what this class is all about, lol. :-)


    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    4K UHD has this feature, and it offers a much, much wider color spectrum range that makes a big difference. I hesitate to go into more detail, mostly because I'm sure I'll butcher the hell out of explaining it. But with the right equipment (4K TV with HDR, a proper player,
    What do you mean by "a proper player"?


    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    Hypothetically, if these new TVs and new disc format were still be in 1080P but with HDR, OR were to feature 4K without HDR, you would likely see the bigger difference with the former rather than the latter compared to regular Blu-Rays/HDTVs, etc.
    So basically, always look for HDR no matter what.


    Quote Originally Posted by Despara View Post
    We have a 4K 65” curved screen TV. Maybe our living room isn’t big enough to have a bad spot, but I’ve never noticed anywhere that was a bad spot to watch TV. The curved screen seems to make it easier to see, but that’s just my observation.
    No! Don't confuse us with conflicting information! I like to think Riddle's info is correct, as that makes sense. If a curved screen works better for you, great, but I think I would be inclined to look for just a straight screen.

    Mr. Jack, are you still in class, classmate? We gotta get this stuff ironed out! lol

    Question: Will HDR TVs automatically improve visual quality of standard DVDs and BluRays, to a degree? Regarding the screen pixelation and all?
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    Yes, Mer-Man's Minion, I'm still here. We've got great Vizio large screens that we enjoy, but we're tempted to change over to 4K. We have eight televisions in our main home so it's a major investment. I appreciate everyone's input.


    Thanks, Despara, but now I'm completely confused, and Dynamo's post makes me even more confused.

    Dynamo, are you saying that even without 4K programming I will see a noticeable difference in viewing quality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Despara View Post
    We have a 4K 65” curved screen TV. Maybe our living room isn’t big enough to have a bad spot, but I’ve never noticed anywhere that was a bad spot to watch TV. The curved screen seems to make it easier to see, but that’s just my observation.


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    Hang in there, Bow! Mer-Man's Minion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Yes, Mer-Man's Minion, I'm still here.
    Good, I'm glad I'm not sitting in this classroom alone! I want my pal here! :-)


    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    We've got great Vizio large screens that we enjoy, but we're tempted to change over to 4K.
    Yeah I have a 32" Sony Trinitron TV that's in 3 dimensions (as opposed to flatscreen, haha), and I've had it for at least 16 years now from Best Buy. But I think I'm seeing a couple of things that are gently showing me I may need to think about a new one sometime down the road---hopefully a while down the road, as it costs $, lol, but still.


    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    We have eight televisions in our main home so it's a major investment.
    WOW!! Holy TVs, Batman! lol


    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Thanks, Despara, but now I'm completely confused, and Dynamo's post makes me even more confused.
    I still think I'm going with "avoid curvature".


    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    Dynamo, are you saying that even without 4K programming I will see a noticeable difference in viewing quality?
    I believe that is what he is saying (waiting for him to confirm, lol). It seems if you have to choose between lower pixels but HDR, or 4K but no HDR, you want to go with HDR.
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    Avenge The Fallen Dynamo of Eternia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mer-Man's Minion View Post
    What do you mean by "a proper player"?

    So basically, always look for HDR no matter what.

    Question: Will HDR TVs automatically improve visual quality of standard DVDs and BluRays, to a degree? Regarding the screen pixelation and all?
    I want to preface this by saying that I'm still something of a layman on this topic, myself. I've done some research and I frequent a Blu-Ray forum where these things are talked about. So I know enough to be a little "dangerous," but by NO means do I claim to be an end all/be all expert, and there are still aspects of this that can give me a headache.

    I don't have a 4K TV yet. It will probably be a few years before I do, at least in my main living room (I may get a basic one for a spare room in the future). I bought a pretty high end 1080p set a little over three years ago, so it's going to be a good while before I get one. I'll talk a bit more about my current set up in a bit, as it is semi-relevant to part of this conversation.

    Regarding the player question, meant a 4K UHD Blu-Ray disc player.

    And yes, make sure to get HDR no matter what. It is pretty much standard now, but from what I understand some very early 4K TVs didn't have it.

    From what I understand - and this is one of the areas that I'm still very fuzzy on and gives me a headache - there are a couple/few semi-different forms/standards of HDR output on various models of TVs, so some sets are apparently better in that regard than others. I digress from going too much deeper into that, as I will just be talking out of my ass. But the bottom line is that you will want to make sure it has HDR, and maybe do some further research on the different sets out there.



    As for your question about Blu-Rays and DVDs (and again, bare in mind that I'm going on statements that I've seen most people make regarding these things), generally speaking Blu-Rays do upscale well. Of course you aren't going to get the same quality as you would a 4K disc of the same movie, but many claim to notice a pretty good difference. HDR would have pretty much nothing to do with that, though. As I said in my earlier post, HDR is a wider spectrum of colors, far above and beyond what regular HDTVs and Blu-Rays have. So not only does the TV have to have HDR, but the 4K discs have to be made with it as well (and the vast majority are.... there are very few expections, and most have it stated on the front of the packaging in some form).

    So the improvement for regular Blu-Rays is mostly in upscaling the resolution. So, resolution (both in actual 4K discs, and to a somewhat lesser extent upscaling 1080p discs to 4K) does still make a difference. I don't mean to make it sound like the resolution just doesn't matter at all, just that HDR tends to make the bigger overall difference when comparing a 4K disc to a regular Blu-Ray of the same movie.

    I've heard mixed things about upscaling DVDs. Some say it actually looks worse than when viewed on a regular HDTV. I can kind of see why this would be. The problem is that you are essentially taking a (relatively speaking) low quality standard definition source and upscaling it to 4K. It can't create data that isn't there. This image should kind of help illustrate the issue, which proportionally shows the relative resolution size differences between Standard Definition, 720p, 1080p, and 4K:



    Think of it kind of like taking a really small jpeg image and enlarging it. It's not going to look anywhere near as good as a full resolution image at that same end size. And when enlarging it, the bigger you make it, the more imperfections, artifacts, etc. are noticeable. And while you can probably use some techniques in something like Photoshop to improve the look of the end result (think of it as a jpeg equivalent to upscaling), it can't actually create data that isn't there, and will never look as good as something in the full resolution. You may notice that even with upscaling, when watching a DVD on an HDTV, you see imperfections that you never noticed when watching that same disc on a standard definition TV. Well this is taking that same issue, and exacerbating it further.

    The reason why this doesn't effect Blu-Rays as badly is because they are already a relatively high quality source, so it's easier to upscale to 4K and have the end result look good, perhaps even arguably a bit better, because it's not going SO far that it would cause the same level of problems. Which is kind of like taking a jpeg image that isn't extremely small, but isn't quite as big as you'd like it to be, and enlarging it. It's still not the same quality as an image of that full proper resolution to begin with, but when you have more default data to work with, it's easier to enlarge it to some extent and still have it look good.




    Getting back to what I was saying earlier about my set up, I don't have a 4K TV yet. But I do actually have a 4K player now (which when I get further into that, some more info about HDR will be included) Here's how I got to that point...

    While I knew I wasn't going to upgrade my main TV for quite a while, it is pretty much a given that at some point down the road, I would. So when the 4K disc format launched in 2016, for any movies that I was going to buy on regular Blu-Ray anyway, I've been opting for the 4K combo packs whenever the option exists. They come with the regular Blu-Ray anyway, and I'll have the 4K disc for later. I think I'm somewhere in the ballpark of having 50-ish 4K releases at this point.

    Towards the end of last year, I was kicking around the idea of getting a 4K player. While I don't intend to go "hog wild" in rebuying every movie that I have on regular Blu-Ray in 4K, what prompted my interest was some movies that I would otherwise want to upgrade down the road getting 4K releases in which the 4K disc has a better transfer than the included standard Blu-Ray.

    For anyone who doesn't know what I mean by "transfer," click the spoiler tag below (I put it in the spoiler tags because it is a decent sized tangent)...

     
    ... you may have heard of terms like a movie being "remastered." Sometimes when an older movie is released, they do a poor job of "cleaning" it up for it's new release, and later come out with a better remastered version. In some cases, they may have over-done it in it's initial release. For example, there is a technical known as Digital Noise Reduction (DNR) that is sometimes applied to movies, especially older ones, that is meant to 'smooth' out aspects of the image to supposedly improve the quality and reduce things like film grain. This is very controversial among enthusiasts. Film to an extent is "supposed" to have grain insofar as it was there to some extent from the get-go and is inherent in the source material. Obviously cleaning up aspects that result from aging of the source materials is ideal. But when DNR is over-applied, it doesn't just smooth out grain, but it actually smooths out and removes detail from the image, sometimes making people in live action look very plastic-y. The Blu-Ray release of Disney's The Sword in the Stone had this badly applied to it, to the point where at times the image almost looks like a water colors painting that got wet and the colors smeared a bit. There are other controversial techniques as well, and just other general variables, but this is one of the big ones, that I use as an example here.

    Sometimes a movie that was previously "DNRed to death" with get a newly remastered transfer that is actually properly done and get re-released. What this means is that if you had both the previous release and the new release both on the same format (say regular Blu-Ray) and compared them, you would most likely notice a difference. The degree of difference can vary depending on a number of factors, but generally it is usually a pretty decent difference assuming that the original release was poorly done and the new one was done properly. Unfortunately this can go the opposite way. Sometimes a new release (especially if DNRed to death compared to a previous release that may still not have been 'perfect') will look worse, so hanging onto the old disc, or tracking down a copy of it if it is out of print and you don't already have it, is what people concerned about this will do.



    What has started happening in some cases is that new, improved transfers are being done on older movies, but are only being put on the 4K disc, and the regular Blu-Ray in the combo pack is the older transfer. What this means is that even if we completely put things like the 4K resolution and HDR color spectrum off to the side and don't factor them into the equation, the new 4K disc is still going to look better because it's being made from a better source. If the regular Blu-Ray included was also from that source, it would look noticeably better than the previous Blu-Ray release.

    Some movies have started to be released that I actually was interested in upgrading for a better transfer, but I don't have a 4K TV, and at the time, didn't have a player. Since the included Blu-Ray disc was the old transfer, that wouldn't do me any good. So, I started kicking around the idea of getting a 4K disc player to use with my existing 1080p TV (which I eventually did).

    So back in December did a bit of research on this, and on that Blu-Ray forum, looked up some threads discussing it and asked a few questions. And it turned out that while you can use a 4K player with 4K discs on a 1080p TV, there are some caveats and trade offs to it specifically because of HDR.

    Back when HD and the Blu-Ray format were relatively new, it was common for Blu-Ray players to come with composite outputs (the yellow, red, and white cables) to use with standard definition TVs. While you, of course, would not be getting an HD picture because the HD source is being downscaled to SD, it would still otherwise look fine.

    But with 4K discs with HDR (High Dynamic Range.... in colors), in addition to the downscaling from 4K to 1080p, it is also essentially "downscaling" the color spectrum. HDR has a wider ranger of variances between different gradual shades of colors than not HDR sources. So when using a 4K player and disc on a 1080p TV, it's cramming that spectrum into a smaller output space. Think of it like trying to put 2TB of data on a 500GB hard drive, or trying to put several gallons of water into a one-gallon container, and actually have it all fit (relatively speaking). Basically when this happens, it is compressing the color range, and in essence taking some of the gradual variances in color and shrinking them down to a smaller range, which means to some extent some portions of a gradual gradient are "averaged" out into a single color, and the end resulting image's color doesn't necessarily look "right," and in some respects a 4K disc can actually look worse than a standard Blu-Ray of the same movie when played on a 1080p TV.

    Most players do have options to help with this that allow you to adjust the HDR conversion output in a similar manner as adjusting things like the brightness or contrast (with a sliding meter that you can adjust on screen), though some are better than others, and even the best ones aren't perfect. Some players only have 5 settings for this, not allowing for a greater level of "fine tuning." In researching this, I found that Panasonic has one of the best players for this, as their player's sliding meter has 12 positions to stop at and adjust.

    The catch with that Panasonic player is that it is on the higher end of 4K players. It normally costs about $600, though back in December Best Buy had it on sale for $450. I was somewhat hesitant due to the price and uncertainty in how well the HDR downscaling would work (even with the player having more robust adjustment settings), I and wanted to hold off until after the new year anyway - both because of money already being spent around Christmas time, and also because I wanted the purchase to happen after the new year began to help maintain my Elite Membership at Best Buy for 2018.

    Right as the new year began, the price jumped back up to $600, so I wasn't going to buy it then. A couple of weeks later, my wife and I were watching a Blu-Ray movie in our living room. We were probably at least half way through the movie, and the movie started acting up and freezing. At first I thought something was wrong with the disc. I took it would, didn't really see any visible issues with it, still cleaned it off, and put it back in. It still had issues, though they weren't always happening at the exact same point in the movie. Curious about this, I popped in another disc that we had just watched recently with no problem. The same problems were happening with it, so I figured something was wrong with the player. I generally don't like to use my game systems for watching movies (I'd rather leave the wear and tear that is put on them for gaming), but as an immediate solution, I popped the disc into my PS3, and it played fine, so we finished watching it that way. And that pretty much cemented the issue being with the player.

    Later that night, after we were done watching the movie, I went onto Best Buy and looked up that Panasonic 4K player again. As luck would have it, it was back down to $450. So, I ordered one online for in-store pick up. I have a Best Buy credit card that I only use for larger purchases when I want interest free financing, and ordered this with it, and got 12 months of no interest. While I could have paid the full amount all at once, it was nice not having to. I've made a couple of payments already, but I'll probably pay off the balance once we get our tax return.

    I picked up the player a couple of days later and got it home. I will say from a build-quality standpoint, I definitely got what I paid for (in a good way). It's a much sturdier, solid build than many of the cheaper/moderate players these days. So I was already pretty happy with the purchase in that sense. Even if the HDR down scaling didn't work great and I were to only use it as a regular Blu-Ray player, it was nice having a really good quality player.

    I hooked it up, and over the next few days messed with it a bit. And the HDR down scaling is a mixed bag. It is possible to get a movie looking pretty good, but there's typically some degree of "trade off" with the colors. I'm still glad that I got this model, though, because having more increments in adjusting the look does help. For now I'll probably only watch 4K discs on it that have a major difference in the overall transfer as I said earlier. Otherwise I'll watch the regular Blu-Ray, even from a 4K combo pack.

    However, what I was not expecting was how good regular Blu-Rays looked through this player. While not necessarily a "night and day" difference, I noticed immediately a decent improvement in quality when watching regular Blu-Rays on it. Even my wife noticed it, and she is generally less apt to notice these things than I am, based on past experience. I don't know if it's specifically because it is a 4K player and some degree of upscaling is happening that still at least somewhat improves the picture, or if it's just because it's a higher end player (meaning presumably that a higher end regular Blu-Ray player would possibly give the same or similar quality).

    Either way, I'm happy with the purchase! At least now I have the option to actually watch my 4K discs if I have reason to, and I have a nice, sturdy player that makes my existing Blu-Ray discs look great!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mer-Man's Minion View Post
    I believe that is what he is saying (waiting for him to confirm, lol). It seems if you have to choose between lower pixels but HDR, or 4K but no HDR, you want to go with HDR.
    And just to be clear, there is no actual such thing as choosing between them (with the exception, I suppose, of the early 4K TVs that lacked HDR, but by and large that is a non-issue with current sets in general). There are no 1080p HDR sets - and a 4K TV with HDR cannot add HDR to programming that lacks it in the first place - that will only work if the disc (or stream/download - from what I understand there are 4K / HDR options with those now, too, though the quality of disc still tends to be better overall). Both the increase in resolution and HDR make a difference, but the general consensus tends to be that out of the two, HDR is making the bigger difference.

    Another way to think of HDR is like various forms of surround sound. Even if you have a state-of-the-art surround sound system, a disc/source has to be programmed with it in order to get the full benefit. If a disc is just in stereo or mono, for example, you aren't going to get separated, independent sounds coming out of each speaker.
    Last edited by Dynamo of Eternia; March 1, 2018 at 05:57pm.
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  13. #13
    Hang in there, Bow! Mer-Man's Minion's Avatar
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    Mr. Jack, Sir, Professor Dynamo has given us more material than I thought we would get---we may have to have a study session this weekend! haha

    By the way Dynamo, I found it hilarious that you used a "Spoiler" buffer in a thread about electronic upgrades.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    Regarding the player question, meant a 4K UHD Blu-Ray disc player.
    I figured it was something like that, thanks.

    But what do I do when I upgrade from my BluRay player? Do I walk into Best Buy and say "I want a 4K UHD Blu-Ray disc player?"

    I'm confused on that now because when I Googled "UHD" to see what that stood for, this was the first Google search result:

    4K vs. UHD: What's the difference? - ExtremeTech
    https://www.extremetech.com


    Why are they against each other if you are recommending we get a player with both? (again, completely ignorant layman here, lol)


    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    And yes, make sure to get HDR no matter what. It is pretty much standard now, but from what I understand some very early 4K TVs didn't have it.
    Easy enough...noted!



    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    ...there are a couple/few semi-different forms/standards of HDR output on various models of TVs, so some sets are apparently better in that regard than others. I digress from going too much deeper into that, as I will just be talking out of my ass. But the bottom line is that you will want to make sure it has HDR, and maybe do some further research on the different sets out there.
    I can get overwhelmed easily. I think I will want to take a Best Buy employee's arm and ask them to please steer me in the right direction, lol.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    As for your question about Blu-Rays and DVDs (and again, bare in mind that I'm going on statements that I've seen most people make regarding these things), generally speaking Blu-Rays do upscale well. Of course you aren't going to get the same quality as you would a 4K disc of the same movie, but many claim to notice a pretty good difference.
    This shocks me. I mean, Blu-Ray is phenomenal. But picture quality can actually be better?? What are you people, peacock mantis shrimp*??

    *(The peacock mantis shrimp is thought by some to have the most developed vision system in the world [thank you David Attenborough and your nature documentaries]. Most people have three types of light-detecting cells, or photoreceptors, which are sensitive to red, green and blue light. But the mantis shrimp has anywhere from 12 to 16 different photoreceptors in its midband. However, I have since learned that the claim they have such ultra-developed color-distinguishing vision is debatable.)



    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    I've heard mixed things about upscaling DVDs. Some say it actually looks worse than when viewed on a regular HDTV. I can kind of see why this would be. The problem is that you are essentially taking a (relatively speaking) low quality standard definition source and upscaling it to 4K. It can't create data that isn't there.

    Think of it kind of like taking a really small jpeg image and enlarging it. It's not going to look anywhere near as good as a full resolution image at that same end size. And when enlarging it, the bigger you make it, the more imperfections, artifacts, etc. are noticeable.
    YES YES YES. This is what I need---analogies! I am not a tecchy guy. THANK YOU, this is so clear using analogies!

    (It also helps in this case that I do work with photos and videos quite often on my home PC, lol)


    Okay, now I'm having 2nd thoughts about upscaling my Blu-Ray player to a 4K player, lol. I mean, I want a 4K player in the future, but do I want to hold on to my Blu-Ray player too for "lesser" DVDs? Standard ones, and homemade ones? From this post it is sounding like if I play standard or, especially, homemade DVDs on a 4K player, they will look pretty bad and maybe even deter me from watching them.



    [QUOTE=Dynamo of Eternia;3769996]But when DNR is over-applied, it doesn't just smooth out grain, but it actually smooths out and removes detail from the image, sometimes making people in live action look very plastic-y. The Blu-Ray release of Disney's The Sword in the Stone had this badly applied to it, to the point where at times the image almost looks like a water colors painting that got wet and the colors smeared a bit.

    Yikes...yeah, at first I started buying Disney films on Blu-Ray (I am a BIG old school Disney fan), but when I first heard some negative reviews on the remastered looks of Peter Pan or The Little Mermaid, I stopped "having" to get all my Disney DVDs upgraded to Blu-Ray. I do however have my favorite Disney films on beautiful Blu-Rays, Sleeping Beauty and Fantasia.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    The reason why this doesn't effect Blu-Rays as badly is because they are already a relatively high quality source, so it's easier to upscale to 4K and have the end result look good, perhaps even arguably a bit better, because it's not going SO far that it would cause the same level of problems. Which is kind of like taking a jpeg image that isn't extremely small, but isn't quite as big as you'd like it to be, and enlarging it. It's still not the same quality as an image of that full proper resolution to begin with, but when you have more default data to work with, it's easier to enlarge it to some extent and still have it look good.
    Love analogies!!



    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    But with 4K discs with HDR (High Dynamic Range.... in colors), in addition to the downscaling from 4K to 1080p, it is also essentially "downscaling" the color spectrum. HDR has a wider ranger of variances between different gradual shades of colors than not HDR sources. So when using a 4K player and disc on a 1080p TV, it's cramming that spectrum into a smaller output space. Think of it like...trying to put several gallons of water into a one-gallon container, and actually have it all fit (relatively speaking). Basically when this happens, it is compressing the color range, and in essence taking some of the gradual variances in color and shrinking them down to a smaller range, which means to some extent some portions of a gradual gradient are "averaged" out into a single color, and the end resulting image's color doesn't necessarily look "right," and in some respects a 4K disc can actually look worse than a standard Blu-Ray of the same movie when played on a 1080p TV.
    I get that, but thank you for using another analogy anyway! lol



    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    Most players do have options to help with this that allow you to adjust the HDR conversion output in a similar manner as adjusting things like the brightness or contrast (with a sliding meter that you can adjust on screen), though some are better than others, and even the best ones aren't perfect. Some players only have 5 settings for this, not allowing for a greater level of "fine tuning." In researching this, I found that Panasonic has one of the best players for this, as their player's sliding meter has 12 positions to stop at and adjust.
    You are speaking primarily of "lessening" the quality on 4K players to get a better resolution/output/look for Blu-Ray and lesser DVDs, correct?



    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    I picked up the player a couple of days later and got it home. I will say from a build-quality standpoint, I definitely got what I paid for (in a good way). It's a much sturdier, solid build than many of the cheaper/moderate players these days. So I was already pretty happy with the purchase in that sense. Even if the HDR down scaling didn't work great and I were to only use it as a regular Blu-Ray player, it was nice having a really good quality player.
    Good to know---I still have my first ever DVD player I got! A Blu-Ray I got as a present in Christmas 2000.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    I hooked it up, and over the next few days messed with it a bit. And the HDR down scaling is a mixed bag. It is possible to get a movie looking pretty good, but there's typically some degree of "trade off" with the colors. I'm still glad that I got this model, though, because having more increments in adjusting the look does help. For now I'll probably only watch 4K discs on it that have a major difference in the overall transfer as I said earlier. Otherwise I'll watch the regular Blu-Ray, even from a 4K combo pack.
    Wait, what? Why would you choose to watch Blu-Ray over 4K? Oh, because you don't have the 4K TV yet.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    However, what I was not expecting was how good regular Blu-Rays looked through this player. While not necessarily a "night and day" difference, I noticed immediately a decent improvement in quality when watching regular Blu-Rays on it. Even my wife noticed it, and she is generally less apt to notice these things than I am, based on past experience. I don't know if it's specifically because it is a 4K player and some degree of upscaling is happening that still at least somewhat improves the picture, or if it's just because it's a higher end player (meaning presumably that a higher end regular Blu-Ray player would possibly give the same or similar quality).

    Either way, I'm happy with the purchase! At least now I have the option to actually watch my 4K discs if I have reason to, and I have a nice, sturdy player that makes my existing Blu-Ray discs look great!

    Awesome!

    Because I'm so non-tecchy, I wouldn't have even thought about upgrading to 4K if it weren't for one film:

    Jim Henson's The Dark Crystal

    This is a visual masterpiece, perhaps the most visual film of any film I've ever seen, and I want it in the BEST possible quality PERIOD.

    Thank you Professor Dynamo for taking up the mantle and helping teach this course! lol :-)

    *hands Mr. Jack some extra paper for more notes*
    Last edited by Mer-Man's Minion; March 1, 2018 at 06:41pm.
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  14. #14
    Master of New Adventures!
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    I'm a simple Midwestern guy and hopelessly low tech. All I'm really looking for -- and have been for over a year, without success -- is a definitive answer to two questions: 1) is there enough programming out there to make sense out of investing in 4K TVs and, 2) if there isn't a lot of 4K programming out there, will having a 4K set make a really noticeable difference in the quality of what I'm presently watching on my upper end big screen TVs?

  15. #15
    Avenge The Fallen Dynamo of Eternia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mer-Man's Minion View Post
    But what do I do when I upgrade from my BluRay player? Do I walk into Best Buy and say "I want a 4K UHD Blu-Ray disc player?"

    I'm confused on that now because when I Googled "UHD" to see what that stood for, this was the first Google search result:

    4K vs. UHD: What's the difference? - ExtremeTech
    https://www.extremetech.com


    Why are they against each other if you are recommending we get a player with both? (again, completely ignorant layman here, lol)
    UHD stands for Ultra High Definition. 4K and UHD are pretty much one and the same (I'm not sure why there would be an article or something comparing them as if they are not), and the terms are often used together.



    Okay, now I'm having 2nd thoughts about upscaling my Blu-Ray player to a 4K player, lol. I mean, I want a 4K player in the future, but do I want to hold on to my Blu-Ray player too for "lesser" DVDs? Standard ones, and homemade ones? From this post it is sounding like if I play standard or, especially, homemade DVDs on a 4K player, they will look pretty bad and maybe even deter me from watching them.
    In the case of DVDs being upscaled to 4K vs. 1080p, the issue is mainly the TV, itself. While the players do some extent of upscaling, so do the TVs. But regardless of whether or not there is any up scaling occurring, my understanding (baring in mind that I have not tried this myself first hand, so I'm basing this on the experience of others) is that a DVD is generally going to look worse on a 4K TV set than a 1080p set because it is taking the relatively low quality standard definition data and trying to bring it up to an even higher resolution.

    Think of it kind of like a magnifying glass. When it comes to watching a DVD, 4K is like a higher magnification than 1080p. The end result of which is seeing more of the imperfections in the lower quality data.


    Most players do have options to help with this that allow you to adjust the HDR conversion output in a similar manner as adjusting things like the brightness or contrast (with a sliding meter that you can adjust on screen), though some are better than others, and even the best ones aren't perfect. Some players only have 5 settings for this, not allowing for a greater level of "fine tuning." In researching this, I found that Panasonic has one of the best players for this, as their player's sliding meter has 12 positions to stop at and adjust.
    You are speaking primarily of "lessening" the quality on 4K players to get a better resolution/output/look for Blu-Ray and lesser DVDs, correct?
    No, I was referring to watching a 4K disc with HDR on a regular 1080p HDTV (which does not have HDR output). The players are still designed to work with 1080p TVs, even though that is not their primary intended function. When the HDR color spectrum is compressed, the colors often look strange or "off" when watching on a 1080p set, compared to watching a 1080p disc. So the player has a feature that allows the look of the color output to be adjusted. I found a picture of that menu:




    Wait, what? Why would you choose to watch Blu-Ray over 4K? Oh, because you don't have the 4K TV yet.


    Yes, because my TV is not 4K, and specifically lacks HDR, and there are generally some degree of problems with HDR down conversion for a non-HDR TV. Everything below is based on the issues of using a 4K disc on a regular HDTV (or any TV that lacks HDR, including those very early 4K sets).

    Even with that adjustment menu, while you can adjust it to try and improve the look of the down-converted colors as much as possible, even the best case scenario tends to have some degree of trade off and imperfections in the overall end color output that you wouldn't get when watching a regular Blu-Ray (since there is no down converting of the color spectrum happening). While not the full extent of the issue, part of the problem is balancing out very light/bright colored scenes and dark ones. In some instances, if you get the colors set so that are in the range of mid-level lighting to dark to look correct, when something really bright does show up (say a bright sky on a sunny day in a movie), it tends to look REALLY bright. If you adjust it the other way, so that the bright scenes aren't as overpowering, the dark scenes tend to be too dark and it can be hard to tell what is going on, etc. There are more issues than just that, but that's part of it.

    Putting aside for the moment the issues with HDR described above... in terms of sheer resolution, when watching a movie on a 1080p set, you will probably notice some improvement in detail from a 4K disc compared to the same movie on regular Blu-Ray -not nearly to the same extent that you would on a 4K set, but still some difference, because it is coming from a higher resolution source and in that sense is giving you "the most out of what you've got," if that makes any sense. And if that were the only factor in the equation, it would make sense to almost always opt for the 4K disc even when watching on a 1080p set.

    BUT because of the aforementioned HDR color downscaling issues, while you may see some degree of improved overall detail with a 4K disc, the color issues can be a big trade off when watching on a regular HDTV. In this case, assuming that there isn't some huge difference in the transfers that the two discs are sourced from, the standard Blu-Ray overall will probably look better on a regular HDTV than the 4K counterpart.

    Now, if the regular Blu-Ray was made from a god-awful transfer of a movie, and the 4K disc is from a much newer, overall better looking transfer, it may be worth it to opt for the 4K disc as you may get an overall better picture, but there will still be some degree of trade off and the imperfections of converting the HDR color range down for a non-HDR TV will still be present.

    Basically when it comes to this, you are picking between the lesser of two evils depending on all of the factors and variables involved.

    Again, I stress that this is only when watching a 4K disc on a regular HDTV (and also those early 4K sets that did not have HDR output, but again, largely a non-issue now... it's not like you are going to go out of your way to find a TV that is no longer manufactured just to have less features).


    IF I had a 4K TV with HDR, this would be a non-issue and I would, of course, opt for the 4K disc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Heeeere's Olesker! View Post
    I'm a simple Midwestern guy and hopelessly low tech. All I'm really looking for -- and have been for over a year, without success -- is a definitive answer to two questions: 1) is there enough programming out there to make sense out of investing in 4K TVs and, 2) if there isn't a lot of 4K programming out there, will having a 4K set make a really noticeable difference in the quality of what I'm presently watching on my upper end big screen TVs?
    It depends on how you watch most content that you consume.

    Most cable and satellite services as of now do not have 4K resolution to my knowledge, and especially lack the HDR color spectrum.

    From what I understand, Netflix does have 4K streaming options, and some digital movie services (I think iTunes being one of them) do have movies with 4K and HDR. There are likely others Bare in mind that if you are streaming content at that level of quality, you will need good internet speed.

    And of course there is the 4K UHD Blu-Ray disc format, which would definitely look better.


    From what I understand (again, baring in mind that it's more in what I've read up on this, and not from first hand experience), while it won't be the same as the quality of a 4K disc, if you get a 4K TV and 4K Blu-Ray player, even regular Blu-Rays (if you already own a lot of them) will look better and do upscale well.


    If you are mostly watching content from a cable/satellite TV service, while I can't say for certain that you wouldn't get any difference at all, I highly doubt that you will notice much of a difference. Even though they do have content in HD, it tends to be the most compromised quality-wise. Streaming tends to have the problem where you might get quality drops depending on your internet speed, but when it is working at full quality, it tends to be better. And most TVs these days are smart TVs with apps for the more popular streaming services built right in, so you don't even necessarily need an external box/device to access them.
    Last edited by Dynamo of Eternia; March 1, 2018 at 11:50pm.
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  16. #16
    Master of New Adventures!
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    Thanks for that. I'm old school and I watch TV on a TV. What a novel and quaint idea. So I guess with limited programming available it's not for us yet. You've saved us an awful lot of money, so thanks again.

    [QUOTE=Dynamo of Eternia;3770023]UHD stands for Ultra High Definition. 4K and UHD are pretty much one and the same (I'm not sure why there would be an article or something comparing them as if they are not), and the terms are often used together.





    In the case of DVDs being upscaled to 4K vs. 1080p, the issue is mainly the TV, itself. While the players do some extent of upscaling, so do the TVs. But regardless of whether or not there is any up scaling occurring, my understanding (baring in mind that I have not tried this myself first hand, so I'm basing this on the experience of others) is that a DVD is generally going to look worse on a 4K TV set than a 1080p set because it is taking the relatively low quality standard definition data and trying to bring it up to an even higher resolution.

    Think of it kind of like a magnifying glass. When it comes to watching a DVD, 4K is like a higher magnification than 1080p. The end result of which is seeing more of the imperfections in the lower quality data.




    No, I was referring to watching a 4K disc with HDR on a regular 1080p HDTV (which does not have HDR output). The players are still designed to work with 1080p TVs, even though that is not their primary intended function. When the HDR color spectrum is compressed, the colors often look strange or "off" when watching on a 1080p set, compared to watching a 1080p disc. So the player has a feature that allows the look of the color output to be adjusted. I found a picture of that menu:

    https://www.spill.hk/article/1464073...7518698852.jpg


    Wait, what? Why would you choose to watch Blu-Ray over 4K? Oh, because you don't have the 4K TV yet.



    Yes, because my TV is not 4K, and specifically lacks HDR, and there are generally some degree of problems with HDR down conversion for a non-HDR TV. Everything below is based on the issues of using a 4K disc on a regular HDTV (or any TV that lacks HDR, including those very early 4K sets).

    Even with that adjustment menu, while you can adjust it to try and improve the look of the down-converted colors as much as possible, even the best case scenario tends to have some degree of trade off an imperfections in the overall end color output that you wouldn't get when watching a regular Blu-Ray (since there is no down converting of the color spectrum happening). While not the full extent of the issue, part of the problem is balancing out very light/bright colored scenes and dark ones. In some instances, if you get the colors set so that are in the range of mid-level lighting to dark to look correct, when something really bright does show up (say a bright sky on a sunny day in a movie), it tends to look REALLY bright. If you adjust it the other way, so that the bright scenes aren't as overpowering, the dark scenes tend to be too dark and it can be hard to tell what is going on, etc. There are more issues than just that, but that's part of it.

    Putting aside for the moment the issues with HDR described above... in terms of sheer resolution, when watching a movie on a 1080p set, you will probably notice some improvement in detail from a 4K disc compared to the same movie on regular Blu-Ray -not nearly to the same extent that you would on a 4K set, but still some difference, because it is coming from a higher resolution source and in that sense is giving you "the most out of what you've got," if that makes any sense. And if that were the only factor in the equation, it would make sense to almost always opt for the 4K disc even when watching on a 1080p set.

    BUT because of the aforementioned HDR color downscaling issues, while you may see some degree of improved overall detail with a 4K disc, the color issues can be a big trade off when watching on a regular HDTV. In this case, assuming that there isn't some huge difference in the transfers that the two discs are sourced from, the standard Blu-Ray overall will probably look better on a regular HDTV than the 4K counterpart.

    Now, if the regular Blu-Ray was made from a god-awful transfer of a movie, and the 4K disc is from a much newer, overall better looking transfer, it may be worth it to opt for the 4K disc as you may get an overall better picture, but there will still be some degree of trade off and the imperfections of converting the HDR color range down for a non-HDR TV will still be present.

    Basically when it comes to this, you are picking between the lesser of two evils depending on all of the factors and variables involved.

    Again, I stress that this is only when watching a 4K disc on a regular HDTV (and also those early 4K sets that did not have HDR output, but again, largely a non-issue now... it's not like you are going to go out of your way to find a TV that is no longer manufactured just to have less features).


    IF I had a 4K TV with HDR, this would be a non-issue and I would, of course, opt for the 4K disc.

    - - - Updated - - -



    It depends on how you watch most content that you consume.

    Most cable and satellite services as of now do not have 4K resolution to my knowledge, and especially lack the HDR color spectrum.

    From what I understand, Netflix does have 4K streaming options, and some digital movie services (I think iTunes being one of them) do have movies with 4K and HDR. There are likely others Bare in mind that if you are streaming content at that level of quality, you will need good internet speed.

    And of course there is the 4K UHD Blu-Ray disc format, which would definitely look better.


    From what I understand (again, baring in mind that it's more in what I've read up on this, and not from first hand experience), while it won't be the same as the quality of a 4K disc, if you get a 4K TV and 4K Blu-Ray player, even regular Blu-Rays (if you already own a lot of them) will look better and do upscale well.


    If you are mostly watching content from a cable/satellite TV service, while I can't say for certain that you wouldn't get any difference at all, I highly doubt that you will notice much of a difference. Even though they do have content in HD, it tends to be the most compromised quality-wise. Streaming tends to have the problem where you might get quality drops depending on your internet speed, but when it is working at full quality, it tends to be better. And most TVs these days are smart TVs with apps for the more popular streaming services built right in, so you don't even necessarily need an external box/device to access them.

  17. #17
    Master of fear Drunken Fist's Avatar
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    I upgraded to a 4K TV as a tax refund purchase last year, and while there's little of it at the moment, watching 4K content is truly astonishing. Even streaming 4K content, such as The Grand Tour on Amazon video, is a very impressive viewing experience. Watching 4K content off a disc-- Planet Earth 2 is the really the standard here, much as the first PE was for HD when it released-- is phenomenal. 4K gaming is really a game changer, too. Playing Assassin's Creed Origins in full 4K, for instance, I spend more time looking around in astonishment at how amazing everything looks and taking screenshots than I do playing missions! I realize I'm throwing around a lot of superlatives here, but they're absolutely applicable!

    HDR is also astonishing, but there are some compatibilty issues as all the kinks get ironed out; it's still early days yet for HDR, and many sets still have issues with certain media, particularly with HDR gaming. Many TVs are also advertised as having HDR, but they don't actually feature the wide color gamut required for full HDR. (It's like the "HD ready" claims we saw on plenty of TVs in the early aughties all over again!) For any set you may be considering, I recommend checking to see if Rtings.com has reviewed it. They are completely impartial, and do exhaustive testing for every set they review. They'll also tell you if a set that claims HDR capabilities can actually display it or not. They also have some general buying guides you may find helpful.

    OLED TVs are generally better than LED sets, though natural, they cost a good bit more. (Don't be fooled by the QLED sets, though, as that's just a marketing term to fool people who don't know any better. They're still LED sets.) As for 4K Blu-Ray players, the Xbox One S is one of the cheapest machines that can play them, and you get a game console besides. It can frequently be found for $200, sometimes even lower. Even if you have no interest in owning a game console, most stand-alone 4K BR players are more expensive.

    So basically, I think it's well worth the investment if you're interested in upgrading, and can afford to do so. There are some budget 4K TVs now that are quite good, and some even have full HDR support! There isn't a ton of 4K programming, but it's growing quickly, just as full HD programming was a decade or so ago. If you're perfectly happy with your current TV, there's no harm in waiting a bit longer, though. The 4K sets will only keep getting cheaper in the meantime!

  18. #18
    Hang in there, Bow! Mer-Man's Minion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    4K and UHD are pretty much one and the same (I'm not sure why there would be an article or something comparing them as if they are not), and the terms are often used together.
    Thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    In the case of DVDs being upscaled to 4K vs. 1080p, the issue is mainly the TV, itself. While the players do some extent of upscaling, so do the TVs. But regardless of whether or not there is any up scaling occurring, my understanding (baring in mind that I have not tried this myself first hand, so I'm basing this on the experience of others) is that a DVD is generally going to look worse on a 4K TV set than a 1080p set because it is taking the relatively low quality standard definition data and trying to bring it up to an even higher resolution.

    Think of it kind of like a magnifying glass. When it comes to watching a DVD, 4K is like a higher magnification than 1080p. The end result of which is seeing more of the imperfections in the lower quality data.
    Okay, so, what are your (and others' reading this) recommendations for my personal situation?:

    • I have cable
    • I do not have Netflix
    • I don't care about "4K programming" (anything HiDef already wows me, lol)
    • I have 0 4Ks so far (but want at least 1, The Dark Crystal)
    • I have some Blu-Rays
    • I have MANY standard DVDs
    • I have quite a few homemade DVDs



    I guess my questions are, for my above criteria,

    1. Do I want a 4K UHD/HDR TV?
    2. Do I want a 4K disc player?
    3. And do I want to keep my regular BluRay player at least for my "standard" and homemade DVDs? (it's sounding like if I play these on 4K/UHD/HDR, they will look bad re: colors and pixilation)
    4. If you play 4K DVDs on a BluRay player, will it still look more "enhanced" than BluRays?




    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    No, I was referring to watching a 4K disc with HDR on a regular 1080p HDTV (which does not have HDR output). The players are still designed to work with 1080p TVs, even though that is not their primary intended function. When the HDR color spectrum is compressed, the colors often look strange or "off" when watching on a 1080p set, compared to watching a 1080p disc. So the player has a feature that allows the look of the color output to be adjusted.
    Ahh, okay.





    Quote Originally Posted by Dynamo of Eternia View Post
    From what I understand (again, baring in mind that it's more in what I've read up on this, and not from first hand experience), while it won't be the same as the quality of a 4K disc, if you get a 4K TV and 4K Blu-Ray player, even regular Blu-Rays (if you already own a lot of them) will look better and do upscale well.
    I've got this, but since I have so many standard and homemade DVDs, that's where I'm concerned (as seen above).



    Quote Originally Posted by Drunken Fist View Post
    Watching 4K content off a disc-- Planet Earth 2 is the really the standard here, much as the first PE was for HD when it released-- is phenomenal.
    Awesome!


    Quote Originally Posted by Drunken Fist View Post
    4K gaming is really a game changer, too. Playing Assassin's Creed Origins in full 4K, for instance, I spend more time looking around in astonishment at how amazing everything looks and taking screenshots than I do playing missions!
    I doubt it will "enhance" my NES and Super NES games though



    Quote Originally Posted by Drunken Fist View Post
    HDR is also astonishing, but there are some compatibilty issues as all the kinks get ironed out; it's still early days yet for HDR
    Oh...well...I hope they iron them out soon, lol.



    Quote Originally Posted by Drunken Fist View Post
    Many TVs are also advertised as having HDR, but they don't actually feature the wide color gamut required for full HDR.
    Ugh!



    Quote Originally Posted by Drunken Fist View Post
    For any set you may be considering, I recommend checking to see if Rtings.com has reviewed it. They are completely impartial, and do exhaustive testing for every set they review. They'll also tell you if a set that claims HDR capabilities can actually display it or not. They also have some general buying guides you may find helpful.
    Cool, thanks!



    Quote Originally Posted by Drunken Fist View Post
    OLED TVs are generally better than LED sets, though natural, they cost a good bit more.
    Wait, you're confusing me. STOP. lol...where does this OLED and LED fit in regarding HDR and 4K/UHD???



    Quote Originally Posted by Drunken Fist View Post
    As for 4K Blu-Ray players, the Xbox One S is one of the cheapest machines that can play them, and you get a game console besides. It can frequently be found for $200, sometimes even lower. Even if you have no interest in owning a game console, most stand-alone 4K BR players are more expensive.
    Good to know in case I needed to go that route (but really, with games, I'm just an old school NES and Super NES guy)



    Quote Originally Posted by Drunken Fist View Post
    So basically, I think it's well worth the investment if you're interested in upgrading, and can afford to do so. There are some budget 4K TVs now that are quite good, and some even have full HDR support! There isn't a ton of 4K programming, but it's growing quickly, just as full HD programming was a decade or so ago. If you're perfectly happy with your current TV, there's no harm in waiting a bit longer, though. The 4K sets will only keep getting cheaper in the meantime!
    Yeah it's not so much "4K programming" I'm after---I know some channels are HD, and that's cool---it's more for my BluRays, and any 4Ks I want to get.
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  19. #19
    Avenge The Fallen Dynamo of Eternia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mer-Man's Minion View Post
    Wait, you're confusing me. STOP. lol...where does this OLED and LED fit in regarding HDR and 4K/UHD???
    Below is a link that explains it in more detail.

    To try and simply sum it up, two different types of TVs. They are still all 4K UHD, but the the technology in how the TV generates it's picture is different, and generally speaking, OLED sets tend to offer a better picture, but tend to cost more as the technology is newer.

    Here are some comparisons.

    The TVs that were most common when we all were growing up were CRT TVs (CRT standard for cathode ray tube). Without going into extreme technical detail, these TVs, of course, were not flat like the ones today. They had just huge back ends to accommodate the tube needed to generate the picture.

    Then eventually flat screen TVs of varying types of technology (including Plasma and LCD) started coming out. It is different internal technology that generates the picture.

    To an extent it is more or less separate from the resolution of the TV, in the sense that there were, early on, standard definition flat screen TVs (then HD, and how UHD), and for a time there were even Widescreen CRT HDTVs that were not flat and had huge backs to them (they were mainly discontinued due to how big and heavy they were, and with people wanting bigger screens, flat screen options were the way to go).

    Without spinning your head over it, even though they are all forms of flat screen TVs, and therefore don't have the same degree of external visible difference when compared to old CRT TVs... Plasma (which is no longer made as of a few years ago - the pricey set that I bought a few years back that I'm still using is the last high-end plasma set that was made), LCD, LED, and now OLED are all different forms of technology that ultimately generate the picture.

    They all have their pluses and minuses to some extent or another. One of the things that many enthusiasts loved about Plasma was that for anything on screen that was supposed to be pitch-black in color would look dark. This really helps with the overall contrast of the image, and making things "pop." Comparatively, LCD and LED, while still not otherwise being bad options, cannot produce nearly as dark of blacks, and even the darkest they get is still generally at least somewhat brighter and slightly inching into gray-ish territory by comparison.

    OLED is newer technology, and generally speaking, produces really dark blacks similar to what Plasma used to.

    Mind you, there are more differences than just this color issue, but it tends to be one of the biggest factors for many "videophiles."


    http://www.explainthatstuff.com/how-...leps-work.html
    ____________________________________________

  20. #20
    Hang in there, Bow! Mer-Man's Minion's Avatar
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    Okay, thanks Dynamo. So ideally you would want "an OLED 4K HDR TV".

    Now I'll wait for one of the "professors" in this thread to share their thoughts on the below, lol:


    Okay, so, what are your (and others' reading this) recommendations for my personal situation?:

    • I have cable
    • I do not have Netflix
    • I don't care about "4K programming" (anything HiDef already wows me, lol)
    • I have 0 4Ks so far (but want at least 1, The Dark Crystal)
    • I have some Blu-Rays
    • I have MANY standard DVDs
    • I have quite a few homemade DVDs



    I guess my questions are, for my above criteria,

    1. Do I want a 4K UHD/HDR TV?
    2. Do I want a 4K disc player?
    3. And do I want to keep my regular BluRay player at least for my "standard" and homemade DVDs? (it's sounding like if I play these on 4K/UHD/HDR, they will look bad re: colors and pixilation)
    4. If you play 4K DVDs on a BluRay player, will it still look more "enhanced" than BluRays?
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  21. #21
    Avenge The Fallen Dynamo of Eternia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mer-Man's Minion View Post
    [*]And do I want to keep my regular BluRay player at least for my "standard" and homemade DVDs? (it's sounding like if I play these on 4K/UHD/HDR, they will look bad re: colors and pixilation)
    As I said earlier, the player is less so the issue than the TV, itself. Even if you hook a regular Blu-Ray player to a 4K TV, by and large any issues quality issues are going to be there regardless, and (from what I understand, baring in mind that I don't have a 4K TV to check this myself) the player will likely make minimal difference either way. Maybe the extent to how "bad" is supposedly looks isn't as bad as it has been made out to be from what I've heard, but I'm just helping as best as I can.

    Drunken Fist is a better resource for personal, first hand experience on this topic.
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  22. #22
    Hang in there, Bow! Mer-Man's Minion's Avatar
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    Okay, thanks; this is so weird, realizing that by upgrading your TV for better picture/audio quality, you will actually be downgrading much of your viewing experience (if you have many standard and homemade DVDs, like me). It sounds like you really have to do pros and cons of what to go for.
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  23. #23
    Master of DVDs BCI Guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mer-Man's Minion View Post
    Okay, thanks; this is so weird, realizing that by upgrading your TV for better picture/audio quality, you will actually be downgrading much of your viewing experience (if you have many standard and homemade DVDs, like me). It sounds like you really have to do pros and cons of what to go for.
    Reminds of how shocked I was at the awful picture I got when I first switched from a tube TV to an HD one and still had SD cable...

  24. #24
    Master of fear Drunken Fist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mer-Man's Minion View Post
    Okay, so, what are your (and others' reading this) recommendations for my personal situation?:

    • I have cable
    • I do not have Netflix
    • I don't care about "4K programming" (anything HiDef already wows me, lol)
    • I have 0 4Ks so far (but want at least 1, The Dark Crystal)
    • I have some Blu-Rays
    • I have MANY standard DVDs
    • I have quite a few homemade DVDs



    I guess my questions are, for my above criteria,

    1. Do I want a 4K UHD/HDR TV?
    2. Do I want a 4K disc player?
    3. And do I want to keep my regular BluRay player at least for my "standard" and homemade DVDs? (it's sounding like if I play these on 4K/UHD/HDR, they will look bad re: colors and pixilation)
    4. If you play 4K DVDs on a BluRay player, will it still look more "enhanced" than BluRays?
    A lot of non-HD stuff does look a bit worse on a 4K screen. If something appears grainy or kinda fuzzy on your HD TV, for instance, that will most likely be a bit worse on an UHD TV. Watching old episodes of Cheers was kinda shocking the first time I did it after getting my 4K set. Normal Blu-Rays look fantastic, though. Honestly, based on what you say, it sounds like you'll be perfectly okay just sticking with a 1080p TV. 4K TVs are getting (relatively) cheap, but you can probably find a really good 1080p TV even cheaper! So, I would recommend just going with a 1080p TV and getting the box set of Planet Earth if you don't already have it. (Of course, I think everyone with functioning eyes should own that. )

  25. #25
    Hang in there, Bow! Mer-Man's Minion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drunken Fist View Post
    A lot of non-HD stuff does look a bit worse on a 4K screen. If something appears grainy or kinda fuzzy on your HD TV, for instance, that will most likely be a bit worse on an UHD TV.
    Wow, well, most TV channels aren't HD. Right? So what's the real benefit of a 4K TV? Mostly for 4K discs and Blu-Rays, and the handful of channels that are in HD? And gaming? But maybe there are more HD channels than I thought.


    Quote Originally Posted by Drunken Fist View Post
    Honestly, based on what you say, it sounds like you'll be perfectly okay just sticking with a 1080p TV.
    Really? Okay, thanks for saying that so I don't go out and buy a 4K TV first when I need a new set, lol.


    Quote Originally Posted by Drunken Fist View Post
    4K TVs are getting (relatively) cheap, but you can probably find a really good 1080p TV even cheaper! So, I would recommend just going with a 1080p TV
    So, on a 1080p TV, my Blu-Rays will look fantastic, and will 4Ks on a 1080 look even "fantastic-er"?? lol

    I assumed I would want a higher-grade TV...I never thought I would be learning or taking advice from a "drunken fist"!


    Quote Originally Posted by Drunken Fist View Post
    and getting the box set of Planet Earth if you don't already have it. (Of course, I think everyone with functioning eyes should own that. )
    Dude, you are talkin' to one of the biggest nature lovers on this board! I already have the Planet Earth box set (my favorite show is "Jungles"!), and I record Blue Planet II every Saturday night!
    Last edited by Mer-Man's Minion; March 3, 2018 at 11:12am.
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