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Thread: UGH, just when you thought it was safe to stick to comic movies...

  1. #51
    Heroic Warrior He-Kal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
    Who cares about Trump this isn't the Tar Swamp...

    Anyways Star Wars novels they should use some of those into a 3 part movie like the Thrawn trilogy...
    True... No one seems to have posted there for quite awhile either ***BRB***

  2. #52
    Heroic Warrior BadVermin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
    I actually love the social justice warrior elements of TV and film, I know that's not a "popular opinion" but it's who I am and how I feel. Progress and diversity are immensely important to me as a person.
    I'm more curious when they think the golden age of entertainment "not having any political messages promoting diversity" happened. An interracial kiss happened in Star Trek. Star Wars is blatantly antifa and showed women in power. Twilight Zone, Archie Bunker, Gunsmoke, BattleStar Galactica, etc, all had messages that promoted progressive ideals. Music has had these messages since the beginning of recorded history. All I see are people whining that they can't get away with being blatenting racist and misogynist anymore without being called out.
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  3. #53
    Heroic Warrior MJOLNIR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredder View Post
    Sigh....you see why I don't bother replying to some people anymore? they will see what they want to see in a post and ignore what is actually being said.
    your bold is correct.... doy.
    Aye. I hardly post or come here at all anymore. People are so politicized that I canít even make an honest, frank, educated critique on a film for valid story reasons without people trying to force imagined, self serving, projecting politics into my words. When called out, these people refuse to acknowledge what they are doing. Itís not even worth posting, this post not withstanding.

    Youíre not allowed to dislike something apparently.

  4. #54
    The First Avenger Megalodon's Avatar
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    Can we just talk about the subject and not get derailed?

  5. #55
    Heroic Warrior He-Ro Eats Soup's Avatar
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    It's different, the last ten years it's gone into hyperdrive to the point that the the content is secondary to the message. The SJW thing needs to end. I don't mind women being in charge, I loved princess Leia in the original Star Wars trilogy; and they did not have to tear down the male characters to make her look good.
    I think it is time to explore the mythos beyond the time of SOH, or maybe I will eat a taco, either way I'm good.

  6. #56
    The First Avenger Megalodon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by He-Ro Eats Soup View Post
    It's different, the last ten years it's gone into hyperdrive to the point that the the content is secondary to the message. The SJW thing needs to end. I don't mind women being in charge, I loved princess Leia in the original Star Wars trilogy; and they did not have to tear down the male characters to make her look good.
    This is what happens:


  7. #57
    Heroic Warrior Razzerian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
    I actually love the social justice warrior elements of TV and film, I know that's not a "popular opinion" but it's who I am and how I feel. Progress and diversity are immensely important to me as a person.
    Thereís a way of bringing certain subjects to the table and to Ďnormalizeí things, I personally thinks the new She-Ra cartoon does a great job at that. But I think She-Ra lends to it perfectly.

    Itís also important to rralize that people do not like to be told how they should think or feel, especially not while theyíre watching a film and are looking to get entertained. Thatís going to (and has had) have a contrary to the desired effect. People will push back and itís not just the actual biggots, racists and sexists. No, youíre normal decent people to push back against these things.

    Itís absolutely disgusting how Disney have been treating the vast majority of Star Wars fans because they didnít like their stupid debacle of a film. I love every single Star Wars film (not counting the Honiday specials) except for that last piece of crap they put out. I LOVE the prequels, sure theyíre not perfect, but itís Star Wars. I donít know what TLJ was, but that was barely Star Wars. Rizn Johnson screwed the pooch and theyíve finally realized it now. But before doing so, they felt the need to basically call every SW fan who didnít like that steaming pile of crap a biggot or sexist... disgusting.

    You can put whatever message you want in a film, just make sure the story is good first. If you do that, you wonít have pushback from normal people.

  8. #58
    Heroic Warrior Razzerian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
    I'm not a particular Star Wars afficionado really, I don't disliike it either, so the franchise old or new doesn't really bother me. I just don't feel a good story and a social consciousness have to be mutually exclusive.
    No, of course not! On the contrary, I think film and TV have played an extremely positive role in the acceptance of things such as ****-sexuality. Which is great, we’ve come a long way from the “not that there’s anything wrong with that” jokes in Seinfeld (briliant episode btw).

    I mean in the ‘90s I think people were still very uneasy about the subject - as that episode perfectly illustrated - but it did also tell us that it shouldn’t be.

    Fast forward 20-odd years and I think having people of other sexual preferences has become the most normal thing in the world (well, depending on where you are I guess).

    We’ve had a gay prime minister and it was NEVER a point of contention. And without a doubt television has played a great part in that.

    But the story remains the most important thing when it comes to films and TV, if you put these sort of social messages in a good story, it’ll pay off. But if you only make it about the message, then you’ll lose a lot of people’s attention, you’llnonly reach those who are already consciencious about the subject matter, the others will just think it’s a stupid film or show and your message goes to waste. Plus you play in to the cards of the biggots, because suddenly they feel like people around them are enforcing their feelings, because others think the movie is crap because it’s crap, so you’re only stimulating the actual biggots by giving them the sense that they’re right because “the majority agrees”. Eventhough the reasons for disliking the movie is different.

    Some will kust think the movie is ****.
    Others will resent the social message because it went at the expense of the story.
    And then you have those who would’ve hated the film even if it was great, just because they don’t like women, gays, or whatever.

    Those are 3 different types of people, 2 of which really aren’t biggots IMO, but Hollywood puts them all under one umbrella. Of course you also have the fourth and fifth type (and more I’m sure), the one that doesn’t really care and just wabnt to put their brain on auto pilot for two hours and just digest whatever they’recfed and the people who’ll just love pretty much anything like you, haha!

  9. #59
    Catwoman...Hear Me Roar! Mikey's Avatar
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    When I said I wasn't a Star Wars afficionado, I never meant anything negative about the franchise, except that with everything else I'm a fan of, I never found the time to get into it. Passion I have loads of, time, not always.

    I do understand you Razzerian, and I wasn't arguing, I also believe a story should come first. I'm as liberal as they come, and I wouldn't want to watch an unadulterated sex romp or porno-garbage just because it agreed with my pro-social justice worldview. No thanks to that!
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  10. #60
    Heroic Warrior Mark M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razzerian View Post
    There’s a way of bringing certain subjects to the table and to ‘normalize’ things, I personally thinks the new She-Ra cartoon does a great job at that. But I think She-Ra lends to it perfectly.

    It’s also important to rralize that people do not like to be told how they should think or feel, especially not while they’re watching a film and are looking to get entertained. That’s going to (and has had) have a contrary to the desired effect. People will push back and it’s not just the actual biggots, racists and sexists. No, you’re normal decent people to push back against these things.

    It’s absolutely disgusting how Disney have been treating the vast majority of Star Wars fans because they didn’t like their stupid debacle of a film. I love every single Star Wars film (not counting the Honiday specials) except for that last piece of crap they put out. I LOVE the prequels, sure they’re not perfect, but it’s Star Wars. I don’t know what TLJ was, but that was barely Star Wars. Rizn Johnson screwed the pooch and they’ve finally realized it now. But before doing so, they felt the need to basically call every SW fan who didn’t like that steaming pile of crap a biggot or sexist... disgusting.

    You can put whatever message you want in a film, just make sure the story is good first. If you do that, you won’t have pushback from normal people.
    Rian Johnson's awful written abomination The Last Jedi has destroyed Star Wars. Most retailers are still stuck still selling the toys from The Force Awakens, Rogue One, The Last Jedi and Solo at massive discounts because they aren't selling...because the movies were terrible. Well Rogue One was okay but....lets just say due to the story, not many children would be going out wanting the action figures from it. In the UK the standard 3.75" figures are on sale for £1.99! 6" Black Series range from £5 and up depending on the character.
    Holdo was a terrible character, Rose was boring, Finn's character was dull and made no sense, Phasma was a let down, Rey is a Mary Sue, Snoke was a joke, Kylo's character also flip flops and makes little sense. Those are critiques of the characters, nothing to do with their race, gender, sexuality or anything else.
    But Disney, Lucasfilm and the cast were more than happy to blame the fans and call them every insult they could rather than admit the faults with the films.

  11. #61
    Heroic Warrior wyldman11's Avatar
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    Comic book TV show that does it better yet is obvious it's doing it is Chilling Adventures of Sabrina. Of course part of the obviousness here is the fact they keep telling you it's what they are doing.

    But it's more how they handle the characters at least. I don't feel like the male characters, they aren't just window dressing, they are played as idiots.


    Even Supergirl handles the males better and it was bashed early on for being very much this.
    Granted comparing a TV show to a movie.
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  12. #62
    Catwoman...Hear Me Roar! Mikey's Avatar
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    I absolutely love Melissa Benoist and her amazingly incredible Supergirl, and I always will but to be honest, when it comes to some other shows I definitely prefer the original Charmed and Sabrina: The Teenage Witch to their modern incarnations. I grew up with the characters from those shows and I just can't see them replaced. Melissa Joan Hart will always be Sabrina, just as Shannen Doherty, Holly Marie Combs, Alyssa Milano, and Rose McGowan will always be my Charmed Ones. I did however like the original Phoebe (Lori Rom) in the Charmed unaired pilot too.
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  13. #63
    Heroic Warrior Amentep's Avatar
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    I'm a Star Wars fan - still remember seeing the first film at the drive in back in the day. I thought TLJ was okay, but I think it made a fundamental narrative mistake which is that it asks the audience to accept more than one atypical idea.

    There's a theory in storytelling that audiences can accept one major idea and everything that derives from it. So original star wars gives The Force, and from that jedi knights and lightsabers and we accept it. If you also said there was another thing called the source and it also gave superman abilities to people who weren't force users and then also time traveling dinosaurs from the future using steampunk tech were attacking the universe...well it's too much.

    TLJ is built on trying to subvert expectations, but the truth is that most audience members could accept a singular subversion of expectations. But when pretty much everything that was set up in TFA is subverted, fans are going to reject the narrative under the same principle that it's just too much to buy.

    I can't help but wonder if the producers and Johnson realized how much fan service was in TFA and tried too hard to go in the opposite direction.

    I've seen Dark Phoenix now, and honestly its problem are what I expected them to be - novice director, script stuck with the fact the story hinges on relationships that haven't really been built up in the series, and a lot of post-production tinkering that hasn't jelled together leading to dangling scenes and plot elements. I was expecting more from Jennifer Lawrence's Mystique since she bothered to return; as is the movie would have been better without her.

    I was also surprised by the modest ambition of the film; in that sense it felt more like the first X-Men film than any of the others that came after. It also does have some good scenes and some of the characters are used well so it's not a total loss of a film. But I think it probably needed a few more revisions before going to lens (even with considering they had to change the last third of the film in reshoots due to the original and coming too close to another film in development at the time - I believe Captain Marvel - which was always going to negatively effect the narrative).

    EDIT: One last thought on TLJ - I do think valid criticism got lost behind some of the social media attacks on some of the actors/actresses. But let's be fair, love or hate the film, it only makes it easy for creators to hide from valid criticism when 'the fans' are hounding people off social media because they can just dismiss unhappy fans as a group due to actions of some of them.
    Last edited by Amentep; June 12, 2019 at 02:37pm.

  14. #64
    Heroic Warrior Mark M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amentep View Post
    I'm a Star Wars fan - still remember seeing the first film at the drive in back in the day. I thought TLJ was okay, but I think it made a fundamental narrative mistake which is that it asks the audience to accept more than one atypical idea.

    There's a theory in storytelling that audiences can accept one major idea and everything that derives from it. So original star wars gives The Force, and from that jedi knights and lightsabers and we accept it. If you also said there was another thing called the source and it also gave superman abilities to people who weren't force users and then also time traveling dinosaurs from the future using steampunk tech were attacking the universe...well it's too much.

    TLJ is built on trying to subvert expectations, but the truth is that most audience members could accept a singular subversion of expectations. But when pretty much everything that was set up in TFA is subverted, fans are going to reject the narrative under the same principle that it's just too much to buy.

    I can't help but wonder if the producers and Johnson realized how much fan service was in TFA and tried too hard to go in the opposite direction.

    I've seen Dark Phoenix now, and honestly its problem are what I expected them to be - novice director, script stuck with the fact the story hinges on relationships that haven't really been built up in the series, and a lot of post-production tinkering that hasn't jelled together leading to dangling scenes and plot elements. I was expecting more from Jennifer Lawrence's Mystique since she bothered to return; as is the movie would have been better without her.

    I was also surprised by the modest ambition of the film; in that sense it felt more like the first X-Men film than any of the others that came after. It also does have some good scenes and some of the characters are used well so it's not a total loss of a film. But I think it probably needed a few more revisions before going to lens (even with considering they had to change the last third of the film in reshoots due to the original and coming too close to another film in development at the time - I believe Captain Marvel - which was always going to negatively effect the narrative).

    EDIT: One last thought on TLJ - I do think valid criticism got lost behind some of the social media attacks on some of the actors/actresses. But let's be fair, love or hate the film, it only makes it easy for creators to hide from valid criticism when 'the fans' are hounding people off social media because they can just dismiss unhappy fans as a group due to actions of some of them.
    I know I am not a fan of TLJ. But if the script had been changed instead of so many ''subversions'' it could have been a great movie.

  15. #65
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    I watched a really great video on You Tube today that talks about this subject and toxic femininity, but it is a bit too political to post here. I have nothing against going all gung ho about girl power, but when you have to put a stiletto heel in someone else's throat to do it then I have a problem.
    Last edited by IceyCat; June 12, 2019 at 04:22pm.
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  16. #66
    Heroic Warrior Amentep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M View Post
    I know I am not a fan of TLJ. But if the script had been changed instead of so many ''subversions'' it could have been a great movie.
    I think there are some good ideas in TLJ borne of the subversion. But some should have been in another film though rather than this one.

    And a few things probably shouldn't have been done.

  17. #67
    Heroic Warrior He-Kal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amentep View Post
    I'm a Star Wars fan - still remember seeing the first film at the drive in back in the day. I thought TLJ was okay, but I think it made a fundamental narrative mistake which is that it asks the audience to accept more than one atypical idea.

    There's a theory in storytelling that audiences can accept one major idea and everything that derives from it. So original star wars gives The Force, and from that jedi knights and lightsabers and we accept it. If you also said there was another thing called the source and it also gave superman abilities to people who weren't force users and then also time traveling dinosaurs from the future using steampunk tech were attacking the universe...well it's too much.

    TLJ is built on trying to subvert expectations, but the truth is that most audience members could accept a singular subversion of expectations. But when pretty much everything that was set up in TFA is subverted, fans are going to reject the narrative under the same principle that it's just too much to buy.

    I can't help but wonder if the producers and Johnson realized how much fan service was in TFA and tried too hard to go in the opposite direction.

    I've seen Dark Phoenix now, and honestly its problem are what I expected them to be - novice director, script stuck with the fact the story hinges on relationships that haven't really been built up in the series, and a lot of post-production tinkering that hasn't jelled together leading to dangling scenes and plot elements. I was expecting more from Jennifer Lawrence's Mystique since she bothered to return; as is the movie would have been better without her.

    I was also surprised by the modest ambition of the film; in that sense it felt more like the first X-Men film than any of the others that came after. It also does have some good scenes and some of the characters are used well so it's not a total loss of a film. But I think it probably needed a few more revisions before going to lens (even with considering they had to change the last third of the film in reshoots due to the original and coming too close to another film in development at the time - I believe Captain Marvel - which was always going to negatively effect the narrative).

    EDIT: One last thought on TLJ - I do think valid criticism got lost behind some of the social media attacks on some of the actors/actresses. But let's be fair, love or hate the film, it only makes it easy for creators to hide from valid criticism when 'the fans' are hounding people off social media because they can just dismiss unhappy fans as a group due to actions of some of them.
    Another issue with Tlj is the outright pessimism the film has about The Jedi, the Force,etc….. I remember in college one of my professors talking about one of the reasons the original Star Wars resonated so much with people was due to it's blatant good vs evil theme. We were just coming out of a war (Vietnam) that blurred the lines of who was right... Were we the good guys and did we do the right thing? People want moral absolutes and people were weary in our country (like we are today) trying to figure out what was good and right. Then, here comes a movie that gave it to them and people ate it up. Now, we have a movie like the TLJ that is the POLAR opposite (Were the Jedi really good, is the Force actually important) of what the original Star Wars stood for and a lot of people hated it... Coincidence?

  18. #68
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    Three words: Blue boob milk

    When someone truly is a fan of a property it shows in their work. I know I was hesitant to watch the 200X MOTU, but I think it was done really well. I was afraid to watch the new version of Thundercats, but I loved that too. Cobra Kai is an excellent example of being true to the fans and the source material. If people who truly love these characters are at the helm, then we see good things. Sadly I think there is an entire generation of people who just want to watch the world burn one beloved property at a time.
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  19. #69
    Heroic Warrior He-Kal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amentep View Post
    I think there are some good ideas in TLJ borne of the subversion. But some should have been in another film though rather than this one.

    And a few things probably shouldn't have been done.
    I think Johnson just wanted to leave his mark so badly on the franchise and make a Star Wars movie so unlike anything seen before, that we ended up with the TLJ fiasco in response. Apparently, Abrams is going to basically retcon a bunch of stuff from TLJ in the next movie, but that's a bad sign that this property is being very mismanaged now when you have two directors with two totally different views playing a movie version of Pong.

  20. #70
    Heroic Warrior Mark M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    Three words: Blue boob milk

    When someone truly is a fan of a property it shows in their work. I know I was hesitant to watch the 200X MOTU, but I think it was done really well. I was afraid to watch the new version of Thundercats, but I loved that too. Cobra Kai is an excellent example of being true to the fans and the source material. If people who truly love these characters are at the helm, then we see good things. Sadly I think there is an entire generation of people who just want to watch the world burn one beloved property at a time.
    Like Thundercats Roar...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by He-Kal View Post
    I think Johnson just wanted to leave his mark so badly on the franchise and make a Star Wars movie so unlike anything seen before, that we ended up with the TLJ fiasco in response. Apparently, Abrams is going to basically retcon a bunch of stuff from TLJ in the next movie, but that's a bad sign that this property is being very mismanaged now when you have two directors with two totally different views playing a movie version of Pong.
    But Abrams isn't without blame either. It's not as if he did a great job TFA.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Amentep View Post
    I think there are some good ideas in TLJ borne of the subversion. But some should have been in another film though rather than this one.

    And a few things probably shouldn't have been done.
    Some of his ideas would have worked a lot better in a stand alone movie. Not part of the saga. Except his Cantobite idea, that should have been scrapped.

  21. #71
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    Imagine what would happen if people ACTUALLY voted with their wallets. At the end of the day this is all about making money. If fans reject it and their revenue dries up they might start to rethink things a bit. I have friends who do not seem to get this. Disney could release a two and a half hour movie that just pans between Chewie and the Porgs and they would go see it cause it has Star Wars in the title. Then they would argue how ground breaking and riveting it is - LOL!
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  22. #72
    Heroic Warrior Mark M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    Imagine what would happen if people ACTUALLY voted with their wallets. At the end of the day this is all about making money. If fans reject it and their revenue dries up they might start to rethink things a bit. I have friends who do not seem to get this. Disney could release a two and a half hour movie that just pans between Chewie and the Porgs and they would go see it cause it has Star Wars in the title. Then they would argue how ground breaking and riveting it is - LOL!
    Yes and they would be out buying three of every toy released. One to open and display, one to keep boxed and one just in case. And maybe a couple to try and scalp on eBay.

  23. #73
    Heroic Warrior IceyCat's Avatar
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    Word. I thank God my kids have taste so I am not stuck buying a lot of the monstrosities currently on shelves. For example my son completely rejects Bay Bots (I swear I did not influence him). We try to stick to Transformer lines that are closer to G1 designs and of course the Walmart exclusive re-releases. He loves the classic Voltron and could not wait to get his hands on the Lego version of him. In almost every instance when I have showed my children classics versus reboots they have picked the classics. It does my heart good. I almost had to disown him though because he said he like Jar Jar! Kidding about the disowning part.
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  24. #74
    Heroic Warrior Mark M's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    Word. I thank God my kids have taste so I am not stuck buying a lot of the monstrosities currently on shelves. For example my son completely rejects Bay Bots (I swear I did not influence him). We try to stick to Transformer lines that are closer to G1 designs and of course the Walmart exclusive re-releases. He loves the classic Voltron and could not wait to get his hands on the Lego version of him. In almost every instance when I have showed my children classics versus reboots they have picked the classics. It does my heart good. I almost had to disown him though because he said he like Jar Jar! Kidding about the disowning part.
    LOL. I recall buying a Jar Jar figure...in 2002 when I was 17, it was on sale for £2-£3. It's probably still the same price on eBay LOL.

  25. #75
    Heroic Warrior He-Kal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceyCat View Post
    Imagine what would happen if people ACTUALLY voted with their wallets. At the end of the day this is all about making money. If fans reject it and their revenue dries up they might start to rethink things a bit. I have friends who do not seem to get this. Disney could release a two and a half hour movie that just pans between Chewie and the Porgs and they would go see it cause it has Star Wars in the title. Then they would argue how ground breaking and riveting it is - LOL!
    I think we did see this with Solo though, which is kindof unfortunate since that movie was ok but fans boycotted it in response to TLJ. I honestly think the next movie is going to take a hit too because people are still upset over TLJ. Personally, this is the first Star Wars movie I could careless about and am not planning on going to see in theaters (Yes, I even saw the prequels opening weekend). TLJ basically ruined this new Trilogy for me (and I loved TFA).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark M View Post
    Like Thundercats Roar...
    - - - Updated - - -
    But Abrams isn't without blame either. It's not as if he did a great job TFA.
    Tbh, I thought TFA was fantastic and was soooo hyped to see TLJ due to it (did not see the gut punch I was about to suffer at all).. In regards to Thundercats Roar that does look awful and I can't help but compare it to the new She-Ra series. Although the art does look better in She-Ra than Roar, it still looks pretty bad in reference to the original (proving sometimes new is not better). When the lead character on the show looks like Richie Rich in a bad She-Ra cosplay, you kinda have a problem...
    Last edited by He-Kal; June 12, 2019 at 06:02pm.

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