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Thread: Masters of the Universe Revelation Netflix Series

  1. #7051
    President of Primus Ornclown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki Roxx View Post
    I find myself acknowledging that a lot of the issues people have with the show can exist, while also shrugging at why they're SUCH a big deal.

    It's not unique to this one show/thing/event, but which things people choose to let slide off their backs and which things people wage war over legitimately confuse and amaze me. Consistently.
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    Seriously, I had some friends who were life-long Spider-Man fans completely turn their backs on our Spidey-community after Sam Raimi decided that Peter would shoot organic webs from his wrists.

    I have been collecting/reading Amazing Spider-Man since I was 7 years old, yet I love the way that Sony handled Spider-Man in the Raimi-verse (except for Part 3... ) Those changes never bothered me as much as others.

    Fast forward to the MCU version of Spidey, and I cannot stand what they did to him... AND how they forced Tony Stark into the Uncle Ben role. To me, that is unforgivable... however, I still understand the reasoning behind all of the decisions that needed to be made.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm just as guilty of being a super-fan-nit-picker as the next person, although I would never let some social media platform tell me what to like or not. And, I certainly wouldn't go looking for reasons to dislike something that exist outside of said something's bubble (like attacking a showrunner's other projects or past endeavors.)
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  2. #7052
    Heroic Warrior Rikki Roxx's Avatar
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    I mean, yeah, we all do it to some degree, sure.

    Anything MCU would be a good example. I've frankly never been a huge Marvel guy at all, and most of what I know from the comics is actually from my Dad's old trading card collections. But I know enough to notice that most of what's in those MCU movies has about as much "faithfulness" to the source material as Sheryl Crow covering Guns N Roses. But people love 'em, go figure.

    And I don't wanna name names or point fingers, buuuuuuuuuuuuuuttttttt... I see tons of people (here and Elsewhere) who love those movies yet viciously attack MOTU Revelation for "not being faithful enough to the material it's based on". And it's like... I get this little "twitch" every time it happens. A person simply can not say they loved Iron Man 3 or Civil War and ALSO attack Revelation "because it's not faithful to its source material." Like you are not allowed to do that, on the grounds of it's inconsistent, hypocritical, and demonstrates a lack of self-awareness on the part of the speaker. Those movies have as much to do with their source material as my butt does with a rocketship, let's just be plain about it. So you can't be all like, "THIS In-Name-Only Adaptation is Brilliant, and this other one is Trash", when you're using the fact that it shares very little connective tissue with its roots as either a negative OR a positive, depending on the case.

    I mean, they DO do that. But all it illustrates to me is, "These Things either matter A Ton or Not At All, and it depends solely on whether or not I, personally, liked what they did. If I liked it, the changes to the source material are 'creative'. If I hated it, then they are sacrilege." That's what I take away when I notice a person establishing such a pattern of inconsistencies. And frankly, it makes me a lot less likely to entertain what such a person has to say on any topic past that point.
    ----------------

    The organic web shooters thing is an interesting case, and my own personal opinion shifts often.

    On one hand, pretty lame and hamfisted metaphor for puberty, probably didn't need to be done, joke about it in the first one wasn't that funny. BUT. To be honest, the part of me that takes everything way too seriously was always very annoyed by the fact that in the comics this (admittedly brilliant) kid not only built these miraculous web-shooters, and more importantly, the web fluid itself, and his go-to idea for it is, "This is gonna be my super-hero gimmick." NOT "get a patent and become a billionaire", or something any practical and pragmatic person would think of. Admittedly, this is a shockingly common problem in super-hero fiction in general, where technology so miraculous it may as well be magic just falls into peoples' laps and they don't think to actually use it in any practical sense; but it's more often a villain thing and they're just too dumb or too shortsighted to notice that maybe if they have enough resources to build a rocket-powered mech suit then maybe they've got better things to do than fight Superman. But they're Bad Guys, we kind of expect them to be that stupid. When it's the heroes who do it, I get a little annoyed. And I know Peter was a dumb (genius) kid, but c'mon. That sort of device STILL should have been beyond his capability to construct, and furthermore, anyone else would've immediately thought of how much money such an invention would be worth... ESPECIALLY if they're constantly broke and worrying about having enough money to pay for poor old Aunt May's medical bills. "Nah, I have this billion-dollar idea for a super-strong dissolvable adhesive, but I'm not gonna cash in on it, I'm ONLY gonna use it to beat up crazy people in Halloween costumes." What an absolute moron.

    So yeah, I can see why some people hated the organic webshooters, but I also always had some pretty big problems with the fact he even had mechanical ones to start with. With regard to the movie, it felt like the kind of change that works because it's more about simplifying than flat-out "change for change's sake", and a person could reasonably argue that the change "fixed" something that never made a ton of sense in the original material anyway.

    I shrugged it off the same way I shrugged off stuff like Grayskull being a hologram, or Preternia being "Heaven". Were these necessary changes? Eh. Are they justifiable? Eh, sure I guess. Does it work better the other way? Yeah, maybe, probably, I guess. Was I shaking with outrage at these changes? Nah. None of them were what I would've done, but I got what they were going for AND I've also seen a lot worse. So the DEGREE of the outrage just seems silly, to me.

    Especially, as mentioned before, at how much of it is so very, very selective. Some folks plain and simply do not have a consistent track record on this sort of thing at all, yet they tend to speak loudly and often. Which is very interesting.
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  3. #7053
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki Roxx View Post

    I shrugged it off the same way I shrugged off stuff like Grayskull being a hologram, or Preternia being "Heaven". Were these necessary changes? Eh. Are they justifiable? Eh, sure I guess. Does it work better the other way? Yeah, maybe, probably, I guess. Was I shaking with outrage at these changes? Nah. None of them were what I would've done, but I got what they were going for AND I've also seen a lot worse. So the DEGREE of the outrage just seems silly, to me.

    Especially, as mentioned before, at how much of it is so very, very selective. Some folks plain and simply do not have a consistent track record on this sort of thing at all, yet they tend to speak loudly and often. Which is very interesting.

    Yeah, this is where I'm at as well. I was indifferent to a lot of these things from the start, so I was more or less okay with them. The Preternia thing did make me raise an eyebrow, but I accepted that it was what the show wanted to do. Maybe you could argue that I have no say in opinion on any of these topics since my niche is specifically Orko and the Trollan lore, but even then I was fine with the changes they made. It took me a few hours to fully let it settle, but I did accept it as valid by the end of the day.

    Like, I understand that people have complaints about the show, and that things like some questionable role choices and the problems with the comics and the general pacing of the series are all valid issues that affect the quality of it, but trust me I have seen much, MUCH worse than this, and honestly to me it feels like a breath of fresh air compared to some of the shows I begrudgingly loved due to their mere potential.

    And going around whining about the show in threads that are completely unrelated, actively sabotaging it by review bombing it, stalking threads for any smidgen of information to use as ammo against the show (as evidenced by that incident where clownfish made a video about the Tiffany Smith audition literally hours after someone speculated about one line of it on one of these threads, ignoring immediate rebuttals about how major spoilers would not be in audition lines), making video after video parroting the same general clickbait catchphrases, not letting people praise the show without trying to turn it into a debate, and then acting like we're "too defensive" when we point out we're exhausted having to justify the fact we like a show every single day... Is completely uncalled for.

    I miss being able to just. completely tear apart a show and still get across that I absolutely love it. I've found at least one coloring error on a character's clothes. I found an instance of characters teleporting several feet between shots. I can't talk about these, though, as people will just latch onto it trying to use it against the show. It's frustrating.

  4. #7054
    Heroic Warrior Jayk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ornclown View Post
    Welcome to "fandom!"

    https://www.statesidestills.com/prod...ast_56607l.jpg

    Seriously, I had some friends who were life-long Spider-Man fans completely turn their backs on our Spidey-community after Sam Raimi decided that Peter would shoot organic webs from his wrists.

    I have been collecting/reading Amazing Spider-Man since I was 7 years old, yet I love the way that Sony handled Spider-Man in the Raimi-verse (except for Part 3... ) Those changes never bothered me as much as others.

    Fast forward to the MCU version of Spidey, and I cannot stand what they did to him... AND how they forced Tony Stark into the Uncle Ben role. To me, that is unforgivable... however, I still understand the reasoning behind all of the decisions that needed to be made.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm just as guilty of being a super-fan-nit-picker as the next person, although I would never let some social media platform tell me what to like or not. And, I certainly wouldn't go looking for reasons to dislike something that exist outside of said something's bubble (like attacking a showrunner's other projects or past endeavors.)



    Some Fans really think this is REAL life. They spend too much time with this nonsense

    They turned their back cos of a movie?

    Crazy bunch really

  5. #7055
    Heroic Warrior AlexApprobation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ornclown View Post
    This is what a lot of people fail to realize...

    There are numerous channels/accounts and tons of videos/vlogs/blogs about how awful Revelation is and all of the things that it does wrong.

    Sadly, there are little to no videos or blogs that do the opposite... Why? Because it doesn't generate revenue. The amount of dislike that Revelation has received comes almost entirely from manufactured outrage.

    Should things be looked at with a critical eye? Of course. (I took an entire semester of art critique a few years ago.) But, what happened before Revelation aired on Netflix was not criticism... it was disgusting herd-anger fueled by paper-thin conjecture.

    Could you imagine if today's mindsets and social-media outlets existed during the days of He-Man throwing mountains, pushing moons and pulling chasms closed with a rope?!? It wouldn't have lasted 5 episodes... and this is the problem, creativity gets squashed before it can even have a chance to shine because of the overly loud haters.
    Agreed so much!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Rikki Roxx View Post
    Especially, as mentioned before, at how much of it is so very, very selective. Some folks plain and simply do not have a consistent track record on this sort of thing at all, yet they tend to speak loudly and often. Which is very interesting.
    I have also noticed this. Sometimes I point it out, sometimes I just shake my head and keep going, and in the extremest cases on FB a blocking is in order.
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  6. #7056
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    Whoa... Lots of new posts.

    It's highly interesting to me that even though I gave my opinion about the modifications of Preternia, Subternia etc. in a calm and factual manner, the alleged "intensity" of my posts is being discussed. Words like "outrage" are being used. As I haven't written so many posts yet, it's easy to confirm that there hasn't been a single "outrage" on my part and that my posts -- while maybe showing a passion for MOTU -- are not heated or anything like that. Also, instead of complaining about individuals or becoming personal, I decided to simply talk about Revelation itself, about clearly defined aspects of it. I would appreciate it if we could all agree on this mode of discussion.

    Then, the point was raised that things like lore modifications wouldn't be a "big deal". Were we talking about a change in a character's looks or something minor like that, I could understand that argument and would probably agree. Things like Preternia or Subternia or the nature of Castle Grayskull are no *minor details*, however. They are essential aspects of the setting, Eternia. They served as the rationale for several Classics figures and comic stories. It's just weird and completely unnecessary to modify them like that. To me, this is a "big deal".

    Also, there was a mention of how fans should support their brand first and foremost. I have to disagree. What defines a fan is their dedication to the subject matter itself -- to the figures, to the lore, to the comics etc. Not necessarily to the "well-being" of an abstract brand. Fans do like something for *specific reasons*, not for a name or a slogan or how marketable something is. For me personally, Eternia with its wonderful mystical cosmology is an important part of why I am a MOTU fan. I think it's a good decision to speak out when something I really care about is being taken apart for no reason whatsoever. This has nothing to do with being overly protective or fearing change. I *loved* the 200X line and especially the MYP cartoon -- even though there were a lot of differences and minor modifications to the original MOTU. But 200X did respect the original material, and at the same time, the writers were so talented that they complemented it perfectly with many new ideas and concepts. They knew how to treat an established canon and how to treat fans.
    Last edited by JSElshoff; September 26, 2021 at 11:52am.

  7. #7057
    Cobra Saboteur Firefly's Avatar
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    As has been mentioned several times, please no wokeness or political discussions in this thread. Thanks.

  8. #7058
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSElshoff View Post
    You're making the very important point that even if we completely forgot about how Revelation has treated MOTU lore and characters for a moment, we would still be left with an astonishingly bland and uninventive show. It is not well-written at all. However, this actually wouldn't bother me so much. What bothers me are the completely unnecessary lore changes. A bad story is not a big deal, but a (bad) modification of canonical elements can have a lasting affect on future MOTU storytelling.
    There's a recent thread in the vintage forum about the different origins of Skeletor and which origin was the preferred origin. Commenters were pretty split on whether they prefer Skeletor as Keldor (Randor's brother), Skeletor as Hordak's apprentice, or Skeletor as demon from another dimension. All of these origin stories can be enjoyed if presented well. It really doesn't take away from one canon when another possible canon is presented.

    I generally agree that the Eternia/Subternia/Preternia thing was a goofy storytelling device. You could look at it as lazy, half-thought-out writing, but more than likely they were trying to cram in as much original lore as they could into a 10 episode limit, so they pulled a little bit from everywhere and lots of things felt rushed. Even though I think I could have done a better job on a number of scenes if I had been writing them, it's hard for me to fault them when I can tell how much work was put into it, and the fact that the target audience was us 40-somethings, not kids like the new Netflix show is. I mean, honestly: how often do 40-year-old fans get COMPLETELY catered to by a new series?

    You're welcome to complain about the parts that don't work. I'd rather volunteer myself as an editor for Season Two. (Kevin Smith, if you're reading, PM me! )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Universe View Post
    There's a recent thread in the vintage forum about the different origins of Skeletor and which origin was the preferred origin. Commenters were pretty split on whether they prefer Skeletor as Keldor (Randor's brother), Skeletor as Hordak's apprentice, or Skeletor as demon from another dimension. All of these origin stories can be enjoyed if presented well. It really doesn't take away from one canon when another possible canon is presented.

    I generally agree that the Eternia/Subternia/Preternia thing was a goofy storytelling device. You could look at it as lazy, half-thought-out writing, but more than likely they were trying to cram in as much original lore as they could into a 10 episode limit, so they pulled a little bit from everywhere and lots of things felt rushed. Even though I think I could have done a better job on a number of scenes if I had been writing them, it's hard for me to fault them when I can tell how much work was put into it, and the fact that the target audience was us 40-somethings, not kids like the new Netflix show is. I mean, honestly: how often do 40-year-old fans get COMPLETELY catered to by a new series?

    You're welcome to complain about the parts that don't work. I'd rather volunteer myself as an editor for Season Two. (Kevin Smith, if you're reading, PM me! )
    I've been following the thread about the Skeletor origins. What is being discussed there, though, is simply a historical situation: Over the course of MOTU's early storytelling phase, different authors have come up with different origin ideas for Skeletor -- due to the simple fact that they weren't aware of each other's explanations. As a result, all these (conflicting) stories have somehow made into what can be considered canon. The situation with Revelation is a completely different one: Kevin Smith and his team were aware of and had access to all the existing material -- which doesn't contain multiple versions of Preternia or Subternia. Both concepts were fleshed out and embellished over time, but their general core definition has remained the same. Other than the authors who came up with different origin stories for Skeletor, in the case of Revelation, a very conscious decision was made to completely redefine at least two "realms" of the Eternian cosmology.

    I don't think, however, that this decision was made out of "laziness". I believe that it was a very well calculated decision to give the Revelation story a (seemingly) stronger *relevance* by adding established and evocative "name labels" (names that somehow "ring a bell") to the writer's ideas of "heaven" and "hell". Fewer things are more powerful after all than established names -- a truth based on which Hollywood has been making sequels, prequels, reboots, and remakes of often questionable quality without limits.

    It is part of what I see as a "citation culture" in a lot of modern media, where so-called "nods", name-droppings, and easter eggs are often more important than solid and self-sufficient storytelling. In my opinion, really good writing (and not just marketing-friendly writing) has to be strong in its own right, original and inventive -- while still taking into account and honoring previous creations in the same world/line. In the case of Revelation, my impression is that the writing is mediocre at best, relying mostly on rather extreme but cheap devices like important characters dying. Instead of really honoring the very rich existing material, characters, places, concepts, and just names make short cameo-like appearances which are mostly isolated from their established contexts. That is no honoring of existing material in my book. As I said in an earlier post, the same general story could have been easily told without modifying any of the original elements. Both a "heroic afterlife" and an "underground hell" could have been created as a new elements with new original names. Designed with care, they could have been valuable additions to the existing canon.

    The fact that I seem to be a member of Revelation's target audience is astonishing to me as I do not at all like to see story elements from my childhood being reduced to mere names or a couple of shallow similarities. Especially considering the fact that none of these modification would have been necessary to give MOTU new life or a breath of fresh air. Had it embraced the existing Eternia instead of modifying it wildly without care, I probably would have been okay with Revelation. It wouldn't have been anywhere near the great 200x cartoon in terms of writing quality, but I would have seen it as an acceptable (even though uninspired) new story in a world I love.
    Last edited by JSElshoff; September 27, 2021 at 05:41pm.

  10. #7060
    Heroic Warrior King Daddy Bo-Hog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSElshoff View Post
    I've been following the thread about the Skeletor origins. What is being discussed there, though, is simply a historical situation: Over the course of MOTU's early storytelling phase, different authors have come up with different origin ideas for Skeletor -- due to the simple fact that they weren't aware of each other's explanations.
    I don't think this is true at all--not entirely. Early development ideas for Skeletor may or may not have been made available to mini-comic writers. But early mini-comics certainly would have at least been available to the writers at Filmation. There wasn't really much in Filmation MOTU as far as I can remember about Skeletor's origin, other than maybe mention that he was a demon or from another dimension (please correct me if I'm wrong). But I don't think it would be fair to say that Filmation derived their intention for Skeletor from the mini-comics.

    Then, I believe that 'The Search for Keldor' mini-comic was the first time that there was any intention to convey that Skeletor had been Keldor. When they had the thought to make this an origin for Skeletor, they were most certainly aware of previous ideas and knew that they were changing it. From all I've seen, this was also the intention of the 200x toon--to make Randor and Keldor brothers. Thus, this was another obvious change from Filmation, one that was adopted from other sources.

    Now, I know you were talking about the early years, probably even before Filmation, but my point is that there has never really been a definitive canon established. It has to be considered more of a multi-verse. Some people prefer one origin, others another, because it was never set in stone. Maybe in the minds of some fans it was--I can see how if someone grew up loving the 200x version, that would be a firm canon in their mind. Same with Filmation, or with the Mini-comics, or Classics, or whatever combination one prefers. Kevin Smith and the writers have done nothing different than what everyone else working on the various incarnations of MOTU have done.

    Personally, I like the mystery of not knowing everything with certainty. I suppose its because I grew up with the amalgamation of Filmation as well as the every-changing mini-comics. I like all the versions, and I enjoy all of the versions for what they are (except NA He-Man, which was, IMO a steaming pile of monkey poo). Change doesn't bother me because like the fans--creators of the various incarnations have such a different vision for how MOTU should be kept alive.
    .

  11. #7061
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    Thinking a lot about what you guys have said so far...maybe revelations was built on the same formula as the MCU?

    The MCU is a universe that is NOT consistent at all with most of the comics it's based on. But they use a lot of the concepts, characters, and locations from the comics. They basically retool the Marvel Universe with their own version of characters and how things happen.

    And people love it. Mostly because many of the fans aren't as familiar with the source material as others. So it's new to them with "Easter eggs" for the rest of us.


    So maybe that was the formula they used for Revelations. New takes on characters, locations, and lore we know and love with plenty of Easter eggs.


    I hate what the MCU did to the Hulk

    So I understand when people hate what Revelations did to fill in blank.
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  12. #7062
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    Thinking a lot about what you guys have said so far...maybe revelations was built on the same formula as the MCU?

    The MCU is a universe that is NOT consistent at all with most of the comics it's based on. But they use a lot of the concepts, characters, and locations from the comics. They basically retool the Marvel Universe with their own version of characters and how things happen.

    And people love it. Mostly because many of the fans aren't as familiar with the source material as others. So it's new to them with "Easter eggs" for the rest of us.


    So maybe that was the formula they used for Revelations. New takes on characters, locations, and lore we know and love with plenty of Easter eggs.


    I hate what the MCU did to the Hulk

    So I understand when people hate what Revelations did to fill in blank.
    They basically retool the Marvel Universe with their own version of characters and how things happen.
    Nah, I'd say that description fits the 2021 CG show I think. Not Revelation.

    And considering Revelation is a sequel or a spiritual sequel to the MOTU Filmation show and only a sequel or spiritual sequel to the MOTU Filmation show, Skeletor's origin was never changed. It wasn't.

    And to me it was pretty darn consistent to that Filmation show, less the three changes Ted Biaselli detailed and why. And anything not explained in that show, in the Filmation show, was fair game, open to be pulled from a preferred minicomic, story LP, or their own creativity.
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  13. #7063
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    And to me it was pretty darn consistent to that Filmation show, less the three changes Ted Biaselli detailed and why. And anything not explained in that show, in the Filmation show, was fair game, open to be pulled from a preferred minicomic, story LP, or their own creativity.
    I can think of multiple things and characters that were/are nothing like their Filmation counterparts. And you saying they could pull from other sources is exactly what the MCU did by pulling parts of their movies from existing material.

    Remember the comic where Thor was a gladiator on Sakaar? Remember the comic in Civil War where Captain America didn't die and instead stopped Iron-man from killing Bucky?
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  14. #7064
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    I can think of multiple things and characters that were/are nothing like their Filmation counterparts.
    Okay, tell us.

    Executive Producer Ted Biaselli detailed how all the Filmation episodes count less three changes they made (fair game to criticize I think):

    #1 Orko being such a master wizard on his homeworld - his explaination: why in the world would he stay at Eternia if it made him magically inept, plus leaving his girlfriend behind on Trolla, family, etc. Changing Orko instead to struggle with magic everywhere and trying to win the approval of his parents and live up to his Oracle name on Trolla became Orko's kinship with Prince Adam who relates with all the same struggles.

    #2 Roboto origin being no longer from Planet Robotica but a creation from Duncan.

    #3 Sorceress had Teela and gave her to Duncan before becoming the guardian of Grayskull.

    And before we incorrectly go to Teela, Filmation gave her the spotlight way before where she was then too brash, irrational, over-emotional, disrespectful, quit the Palace against King Randor's wishes, all occurring in the 1983 Filmation Series, some on multiple occasions.

    And you saying they could pull from other sources is exactly what the MCU did by pulling parts of their movies from existing material.
    Not when it's not explained already in the Filmation Series. Think something unexplained in the Hulk comics (the source) but the thing not explained in the comics was explained in an episode of the 1970's Hulk television series and that's what's used. It's an entirely different circumstance.

    Like since there wasn't much lore to pull from on Castle Grayskull from the 1983 Filmation Series, the creators used pre-existing lore of the time, a MOTU Story LP from the same year the series was airing.
    Last edited by Voodoo Magic; September 27, 2021 at 06:40pm.
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  15. #7065
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    Okay, tell us.

    Executive Producer Ted Biaselli detailed how all the Filmation episodes count less three changes they made (fair game to criticize I think):

    #1 Orko being such a master wizard on his homeworld - his explaination: why in the world would he stay at Eternia if it made him magically inept, plus leaving his girlfriend behind on Trolla, family, etc. Changing Orko instead to struggle with magic everywhere and trying to win the approval of his parents and live up to his Oracle name on Trolla became Orko's kinship with Prince Adam who relates with all the same struggles.

    #2 Roboto origin being no longer from Planet Robotica but a creation from Duncan.

    #3 Sorceress had Teela and gave her to Duncan before becoming the guardian of Grayskull.

    And before we incorrectly go to Teela, Filmation gave her the spotlight way before where she was then too brash, irrational, over-emotional, disrespectful, quit the Palace against King Randor's wishes, all occurring in the 1983 Filmation Series, some on multiple occasions.



    Not when it's not explained already in the Filmation Series. Think something unexplained in the Hulk comics (the source) but the thing not explained in the comics was explained in an episode of the 1970's Hulk television series and that's what's used. It's an entirely different circumstance.

    Like since there wasn't much lore to pull from on Castle Grayskull from the 1983 Filmation Series, the creators used pre-existing lore of the time, a MOTU Story LP from the same year the series was airing.
    Very interesting read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    Thinking a lot about what you guys have said so far...maybe revelations was built on the same formula as the MCU?

    The MCU is a universe that is NOT consistent at all with most of the comics it's based on. But they use a lot of the concepts, characters, and locations from the comics. They basically retool the Marvel Universe with their own version of characters and how things happen.

    And people love it. Mostly because many of the fans aren't as familiar with the source material as others. So it's new to them with "Easter eggs" for the rest of us.


    So maybe that was the formula they used for Revelations. New takes on characters, locations, and lore we know and love with plenty of Easter eggs.


    I hate what the MCU did to the Hulk

    So I understand when people hate what Revelations did to fill in blank.
    The MCU did those redefinitions and reimaginations a lot more openly, self-sufficiently, and creatively, though. Also, they didn't just take some cool-sounding names from their franchise's history and applied them to something completely different. I agree that it's possible Kevin Smith and his team were inspired by the way the MCU handled Marvel canon -- but in my opinion, their attempt was a lot clumsier and didn't even seem to have a good reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    Okay, tell us.

    Executive Producer Ted Biaselli detailed how all the Filmation episodes count less three changes they made (fair game to criticize I think):

    #1 Orko being such a master wizard on his homeworld - his explaination: why in the world would he stay at Eternia if it made him magically inept, plus leaving his girlfriend behind on Trolla, family, etc. Changing Orko instead to struggle with magic everywhere and trying to win the approval of his parents and live up to his Oracle name on Trolla became Orko's kinship with Prince Adam who relates with all the same struggles.

    #2 Roboto origin being no longer from Planet Robotica but a creation from Duncan.

    #3 Sorceress had Teela and gave her to Duncan before becoming the guardian of Grayskull.

    And before we incorrectly go to Teela, Filmation gave her the spotlight way before where she was then too brash, irrational, over-emotional, disrespectful, quit the Palace against King Randor's wishes, all occurring in the 1983 Filmation Series, some on multiple occasions.

    Not when it's not explained already in the Filmation Series. Think something unexplained in the Hulk comics (the source) but the thing not explained in the comics was explained in an episode of the 1970's Hulk television series and that's what's used. It's an entirely different circumstance.

    Like since there wasn't much lore to pull from on Castle Grayskull from the 1983 Filmation Series, the creators used pre-existing lore of the time, a MOTU Story LP from the same year the series was airing.
    Well, the power sword "binding all magic to Eternia" (quote: Evil-Lyn, episode 2) and being necessary for magic to remain on Eternia certainly is a stretch. When in the "Disappearing Act" episode of the Filmation cartoon Orko accidentally sent the power sword back in time (and I mean completely back in time, without it having an "older counterpart" in the present), nothing happened to the other forms of magic on the planet. So I don't think that making the power sword so essential for the existence of magic is in line with its role in the Filmation cartoon -- of which Revelation is an alleged continuation.

    The information about the story LP is interesting. So the idea of Grayskull being an illusion comes from there? And did it serve as an illusion for the Hall of Wisdom, too? That would be strange as to my knowledge, the Hall of Wisdom was created by the 200X cartoon.

  17. #7067
    Call Your Champion Voodoo Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSElshoff View Post
    The MCU did those redefinitions and reimaginations a lot more openly, self-sufficiently, and creatively, though. Also, they didn't just take some cool-sounding names from their franchise's history and applied them to something completely different. I agree that it's possible Kevin Smith and his team were inspired by the way the MCU handled Marvel canon -- but in my opinion, their attempt was a lot clumsier and didn't even seem to have a good reason.
    I think your leading into the crux of the anger.

    Revelation is only a sequel to the Filmation series, and beholden to that series only. That's pretty much their Canon Bible. Now something like Subternia is outside of that Canon Bible, it's not featured in the Filmation Series. That originated in Mike Young's series. But when the writers insert "Subternia" into Revelation and modify it during that process, fans of strictly the Filmation Series won't be annoyed - nothing has changed for them. But fans of the Mike Young's Series could get annoyed with this. They want to see its ideas respected too, instead of retconned, like Keldor. I think this is the root of it.

    Well, the power sword "binding all magic to Eternia" (quote: Evil-Lyn, episode 2) and being necessary for magic to remain on Eternia certainly is a stretch. When in the "Disappearing Act" episode of the Filmation cartoon Orko accidentally sent the power sword back in time (and I mean completely back in time, without it having an "older counterpart" in the present), nothing happened to the other forms of magic on the planet. So I don't think that making the power sword so essential for the existence of magic is in line with its role in the Filmation cartoon -- of which Revelation is an alleged continuation.
    I would believe the Power Sword transcends time, and is quite different from being destroyed. So I don't see a conflict with that personally.

    The information about the story LP is interesting. So the idea of Grayskull being an illusion comes from there? And did it serve as an illusion for the Hall of Wisdom, too? That would be strange as to my knowledge, the Hall of Wisdom was created by the 200X cartoon.
    Nope, it didn't come from Mike Young's show. That concept originated from the Kids Stuff MOTU record in 1983.

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  18. #7068
    Court Magician Oldfan87's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post

    Executive Producer Ted Biaselli detailed how all the Filmation episodes count less three changes they made (fair game to criticize I think):

    #1 Orko being such a master wizard on his homeworld - his explaination: why in the world would he stay at Eternia if it made him magically inept, plus leaving his girlfriend behind on Trolla, family, etc. Changing Orko instead to struggle with magic everywhere and trying to win the approval of his parents and live up to his Oracle name on Trolla became Orko's kinship with Prince Adam who relates with all the same struggles.

    #2 Roboto origin being no longer from Planet Robotica but a creation from Duncan.

    #3 Sorceress had Teela and gave her to Duncan before becoming the guardian of Grayskull.
    Actually, these contradictions can be explained away without a single change to continuity;

    #1 Orko may just have been bragging about being such an amazing wizard back home. His family, while glad the little embarrassment was gone to eternia, and not wanting to admit their little 'oracle' prodigy spread stories of his greatness. Uncle Montork was the only one who actually cared about the little guy in his family, and might have cast a spell that 'boosted' his magic whenever he came home, like during the mess with dragoon. Dre Elle was acting on the stories his family spread about 'Orko the great' when she sought out his help against Dragoon, and loved him too much to say anything when she found out the truth from uncle montork.

    #2 Man-at-arms rebuilt Roboto at the end of the 'happy birthday Roboto' episode, and might have encoded his memories onto Roboto's AI. And Orko gave a speech about Roboto having a birthday due to being rebuilt in that very episode, and Orko joked about Roboto being man-at-arm's 'son'. I think him being 're-built' after Modulok basically destroyed him, gives us Revelation Roboto, who feels he has no ties back to planet Robotica.

    #3 The oracle of the crystal sea may have relayed Teela's history to her in away she could understand, and some details might actually be different.

    Of course, that also means Skeletor remade the shaping staff somehow, The Sorceress fell for the faker trick twice, Prince Adam shriveled up to look like his 200x counterpart, all the major structures on eternia miraculously got radically remodeled, He-man lost his skin tan and corridite crystal iron cross harness, Teela did not pick up on Evil-lyn using the 'majestra' identity again (even being this time an old woman), major powerful magic users like Gyranamyr, The comet keeper, Malik the wizard of stone mountain, and the council of seasons sat on their butts and did nothing while eternia sat dying from lack of magic, and none of the major enemies of Eternia like Count Marzo or Negator did anything non-magical to capitalize or He-man and skeletor being gone. Heck, since a lot of Eternia's natural phenomenon like comets, time, and the seasons are created and controlled by magic, the planet should have died in a giant natural apocalypse by now.
    Last edited by Oldfan87; September 28, 2021 at 12:44pm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfan87 View Post
    Actually, these contradictions can be explained away without a single change to continuity;

    #1 Orko may just have been bragging about being such an amazing wizard back home. His family, while glad the little embarrassment was gone to eternia, and not wanting to admit their little 'oracle' prodigy spread stories of his greatness. Uncle Montork was the only one who actually cared about the little guy in his family, and might have cast a spell that 'boosted' his magic whenever he came home, like during the mess with dragoon. Dre Elle was acting on the stories his family spread about 'Orko the great' when she sought out his help against Dragoon, and loved him too much to say anything when she found out the truth from uncle montork.

    #2 Man-at-arms rebuilt Roboto at the end of the 'happy birthday Roboto' episode, and might have encoded his memories onto Roboto's AI. And Orko gave a speech about Roboto having a birthday due to being rebuilt in that very episode, and Orko joked about Roboto being man-at-arm's 'son'. I think him being 're-built' after Modulok basically destroyed him, gives us Revelation Roboto, who feels he has no ties back to planet Robotica.

    #3 The oracle of the crystal sea may have relayed Teela's history to her in away she could understand, and some details might actually be different.
    Haha, what? Well done!

    Of course, that also means Skeletor remade the shaping staff somehow, The Sorceress fell for the faker trick twice, Prince Adam shriveled up to look like his 200x counterpart, all the major structures on eternia miraculously got radically remodeled, He-man lost his skin tan and corridite crystal iron cross harness, major powerful magic users like Gyranamyr, The comet keeper, Malik the wizard of stone mountain, and the council of seasons sat on their butts and did nothing while eternia sat dying from lack of magic, and none of the major enemies of Eternia like Count Marzo or Negator did anything non-magical to capitalize or He-man and skeletor being gone. Heck, since a lot of Eternia's natural phenomenon like comets, time, and the seasons are created and controlled by magic, the planet should have died in a giant natural apocalypse by now.
    Out of all that, He-Man's lack of skin tan is definitely the most egregious!
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  20. #7070
    Court Magician Oldfan87's Avatar
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    I've said it elsewhere, and I'll say it here; Revelations should have been a 200X continuation, instead of filmation. With 200X Mattel owns the entire show, including all of the character designs, story, and show elements, and wouldn't have to pay dreamworks a dime to use them. Then we wouldn't have a [email protected]#$! dark and gritty sequel with toy designs that looks and feels totally different from a lighthearted 80's show. You also don't have the she-ra question hanging over the story like a shadow, the sillier elements of Filmation could be ignored, and the tone would be more fitting to what revelations was trying to achieve. 200X is close enough to the original storyline, that the older fans would have watched it anyway.

    Then again, my beloved 200X universe might have dodged a bullet with this one...

  21. #7071
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldfan87 View Post
    my beloved 200X universe
    And I think that's it right there again. I've never been a big fan of Mike Young's show, so it doesn't bother me that Revelation is just a sequel to the Filmation show and retcons 200X. But lovers of 200X could be angered quite a bit and subsequently even involuntarily nitpicking the heck of it. Because honestly, some of that stuff you mentioned, if we learned Skeletor was able to restore The Shaping Staff, is it really that ridiculous? And it appears Teela knew Magestra was Evil-Lyn the whole time.... "I think it's time you tell us what you really want.... Evil-Lyn." Or Netflix suping up an Adult 2021 continuation where some of the buildings look different, or armor, or skin look different, more stylized, are we going to really nitpick that? Is it really that unforgivable? Or is this just a byproduct of being angry with it?

    I think it comes down to people who are happy with something will forgive its minor flaws, and people who are angry with something will highlight those minor flaws and take a magnifying glass to them.
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    @ Voodoo Magic:

    Wow! First of all: Thank you for showing the article about the LP!

    It's clear now where the Revelation writers got their idea from, and it's also very interesting to me that the Council of Elders and Hall of Wisdom concepts have been around since 1983. Very cool.

    The article mentions that the Elders *transformed* the Hall of Wisdom into a frightening-looking edifice -- Castle Grayskull. Forgive me if I'm seemingly splitting hairs here, but an actual transformation into another building is quite different from just creating an (albeit powerful) "illusion" -- as it is referred to by Skeletor in episode 1. The difference is so important in my opinion because an illusion implies not an actual physical building but sensory trickery, a mirage. For fans of Castle Grayskull (and I think there are quite a few), this basically says that their favorite castle is nothing more than smoke and mirrors. A transformation version, however, would have kept the original concept of Castle Grasykull as a grim-looking physical fortress alive. It is a much better version in my opinion and should have been used by the Revelation writers. While their inspiration came from a classical source (the story LP), they modified it and used it in a very clumsy manner. They should have realized that it's not enough to just have a source for your material, it's even more important how you implement the material.

    This brings me to my second point: Yes, you are absolutely right that only the Filmation cartoon has been explicitly named as being part of the same continuity as Revelation. At the same time, it is clear that lots of other sources of existing MOTU material have been used to create this story. Just like the Castle Grayskull origin story, however, most of these other borrowed elements were presented in a strongly modified form and outside of their established contexts. The question is: Why would you even use such additional material from separate sources when you already know you are going to completely revise it until only a name or some shallow similarities are left? Maybe this was planned as fan service or as a way of adding more relevance to the show -- but didn't Kevin Smith and his team realize that they were about to alienate MOTU fans when they were taking away the rationale for a lot of beloved toys, characters, and places on Eternia? Real fan service would have treated all the existing elements with care and would have retained their identity.

    I know that the Revelation continuity isn't the only MOTU continuity, but it was placed within the same continuity as the Filmation cartoon. That basically means that within the Filmation contuinuity, Preternia is now a heroic heaven for a selected few (while most others apparently "become trees") and Subternia is now one hellish nigthmare realm ruled by Scareglow. Also, the Revelation conutinuity is a continuity that matters and that will probably influence future story developments in the line.

    ---

    @ Oldfan87:

    I agree that story-wise, Revelation should have continued 200X as that is probably the the best-written version of MOTU so far. Looks-wise I actually prefer a style that is closer to the original toys and Filmation.

  23. #7073
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    I think your leading into the crux of the anger.

    Revelation is only a sequel to the Filmation series, and beholden to that series only. That's pretty much their Canon Bible. Now something like Subternia is outside of that Canon Bible, it's not featured in the Filmation Series. That originated in Mike Young's series. But when the writers insert "Subternia" into Revelation and modify it during that process, fans of strictly the Filmation Series won't be annoyed - nothing has changed for them. But fans of the Mike Young's Series could get annoyed with this. They want to see its ideas respected too, instead of retconned, like Keldor. I think this is the root of it.



    I would believe the Power Sword transcends time, and is quite different from being destroyed. So I don't see a conflict with that personally.



    Nope, it didn't come from Mike Young's show. That concept originated from the Kids Stuff MOTU record in 1983.

    https://i.ibb.co/NjZgNJy/IMG-20210928-102707.jpg
    Thanks for posting that. I knew it had come from that source but I had never read it myself.

    This passage doesn't say that the Castle of Grayskull that we know today is an illusion. It says the hall was transformed into a frightening edifice (building). It was once the hall of wisdom, and now it's a scary castle. Was it ever mentioned that the the castle was an illusion, that the hall was still underneath? Maybe the pictures in the book tell more of the story? From what I remember of MOTUR (I only watched it once), the hall is still underneath the illusion.

    To me, these are different. I am less opposed to the hall actually being physically transformed than I am of it being an illusion.

  24. #7074
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    And I think that's it right there again. I've never been a big fan of Mike Young's show, so it doesn't bother me that Revelation is just a sequel to the Filmation show and retcons 200X. But lovers of 200X could be angered quite a bit and subsequently even involuntarily nitpicking the heck of it. Because honestly, some of that stuff you mentioned, if we learned Skeletor was able to restore The Shaping Staff, is it really that ridiculous? And it appears Teela knew Magestra was Evil-Lyn the whole time.... "I think it's time you tell us what you really want.... Evil-Lyn." Or Netflix suping up an Adult 2021 continuation where some of the buildings look different, or armor, or skin look different, more stylized, are we going to really nitpick that? Is it really that unforgivable? Or is this just a byproduct of being angry with it?

    I think it comes down to people who are happy with something will forgive its minor flaws, and people who are angry with something will highlight those minor flaws and take a magnifying glass to them.
    See, I don't mind revelations at all, and actually like the show, because it DOESN'T retcon 200X. Revelation is a Filmation continuation, so all of it's.... ahem.... 'interesting' features (killing Orko and Roboto and moss man, hall of wisdom being under a grayskull hologram, the new king grayskull, he-man dying, Teela's changes, etc.) have no bearing on the 200X universe. In the 200X universe, teela still looks like old teela, king grayskull remains unchanged, all the characters are still alive (except Webstor), king Grayskul doesn't look different and wasn't changed, and the Heroes just beat King hiss, and Eternia is awaiting the return of hordak. Revelation could turn he-man into a clown, and I wouldn't care. It's you guy's he-man, not mine. So I can enjoy Revelations turning the Filmation versions inside out, my favorite version of He-man remains untouched.

    (note; this is not a dig at filamtion he-man, or it's fans, just a statement that I don't think Revelations would have worked as a 200X continuation as-is)
    Last edited by Oldfan87; September 28, 2021 at 02:12pm.

  25. #7075
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    Okay, tell us.

    Executive Producer Ted Biaselli detailed how all the Filmation episodes count less three changes they made (fair game to criticize I think):

    #1 Orko being such a master wizard on his homeworld - his explaination: why in the world would he stay at Eternia if it made him magically inept, plus leaving his girlfriend behind on Trolla, family, etc. Changing Orko instead to struggle with magic everywhere and trying to win the approval of his parents and live up to his Oracle name on Trolla became Orko's kinship with Prince Adam who relates with all the same struggles.

    #2 Roboto origin being no longer from Planet Robotica but a creation from Duncan.

    #3 Sorceress had Teela and gave her to Duncan before becoming the guardian of Grayskull.

    And before we incorrectly go to Teela, Filmation gave her the spotlight way before where she was then too brash, irrational, over-emotional, disrespectful, quit the Palace against King Randor's wishes, all occurring in the 1983 Filmation Series, some on multiple occasions.



    Not when it's not explained already in the Filmation Series. Think something unexplained in the Hulk comics (the source) but the thing not explained in the comics was explained in an episode of the 1970's Hulk television series and that's what's used. It's an entirely different circumstance.

    Like since there wasn't much lore to pull from on Castle Grayskull from the 1983 Filmation Series, the creators used pre-existing lore of the time, a MOTU Story LP from the same year the series was airing.
    Thanks for the insight!

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