200+ pages later and the debate is still going.
At the end of the day, some people are going to like Revelations
Some people are going to hate it. It is a simple as that.
Even if you hate it, there is some good that has come from it. It has gotten people, beyond the hardcore fans, talking about MOTU again. The DVD collection of the Filmation series is currently at #20 on amazon's list of Action Adventure DVDs.
for comparisons
G1 Transforms is at #61
She-Ra (Filmation) is #359
She-Ra (Dreamworks) is #707
I want this to do well, I want the CGI one to do well. Why? Because maybe then we won't have to wait 20+ years for another series.
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It's impossible to please everyone, but market forces dictate that if you reach a point where you can't figure out a way to please MOST people, then eventually your property stops getting reboots.
Originally Posted by Ornclown
As for "the next generation of fans"... I'll have to see with my own eyes that that's more than like, 20 people. All you EVER hear outside of this forum is that nobody under age 30 even cares about MOTU, or He-Man, or Conan, or anything having to do with the whole D&D-esque, fantasy-setting, barbarian-type stuff. Generally-speaking, kids think all that stuff is really dumb. There's obvious exceptions here and there, sure, but in the broad sense nobody under a certain age likes this kind of stuff. So if the CGI reboot does well, it will be a huge anomaly. Not saying it CAN'T happen, but again, I wouldn't put any money on it. I suspect most of its supporters won't in fact be the "New Generation" of potential fans, but rather existing MOTU fans who will support anything called MOTU just so that the brand will survive in some form. Just like how "Rise of the TMNT" was ostensibly supposed to be "for New Fans", except kids couldn't have cared less about it and ignored it entirely while most of the existing fanbase thought it was awful, or at least too different from the established TMNT brand. So the only people who ended up supporting it were predominantly the types who were like, "Well, if we don't support this then we have nothing!"
And I think that reboot failed for the same reason I expect* the CGI MOTU reboot to fail; WE care about these brands, but evidence strongly suggests that nobody under a certain age does. MOTU and TMNT have a few things in common, but one of the strongest things is how they've spent 30 years trying to generate "The New Audience" out of thin air and never really strongly succeeded. The kids of Our Generation, our "offspring" as it were, were supposed to pick up the proverbial baton, but it turns out they mostly didn't care about the stuff we liked as kids, or otherwise they cared very briefly before moving on to other things. So... what, then?
* Before anyone tries to "start a thing", predicting failure and "rooting for" failure are not the same thing. I'm not interested in the CGI MOTU reboot so far, but I'm not "rooting against it"; if I don't like it, I can just ignore it. I'm simply looking at the situation pragmatically and explaining WHY I don't think it's ultimately going to succeed based on multiple factors. Just so everything is clear. If it does do well, then that's fine.
The more time goes on, the more I'm convinced that there really is no such thing as an "evergreen" property, and that all things eventually reach a natural endpoint. Some get a longer shelf life than others, and some are able to maintain a seeming non-stop run of popularity despite a lot of stalls and restarts and reinvention along the way... but eventually, everything ends. I used to think that stuff like Superman and Batman were "evergreen", but looking back at their history there's been several points where they were almost snuffed out for one reason or other and they definitely haven't always been in-fashion. One day, they'll simply cease to be relevant. Things like John Carter, Flash Gordon, The Shadow, Green Hornet, The Lone Ranger, etc. were all super-popular - some of them probably more popular at certain points in history than MOTU ever was - but they're all completely irrelevant now. Few people even WANT to even attempt any sort of revival of any of that stuff, and when they try one it's so abysmal that everyone wishes they never bothered.
D!ck Tracy's brand, at its peak of popularity, was far beyond Batman's at its respective peak. That brand, too, is about as dead as dead can be. Nobody's talking about bringing it back in a major way, nor should they. There's zero market for that sort of character or those types of stories in the modern era. I say that as a HUGE fan of that franchise; I love it, but it's dead. It's a lovely time capsule of a different time and place, and a hugely influential piece of pop culture history which influenced a ton of things which came after it, and I treasure it as that. And before anyone mentions it, I am aware that the strip is still in print in some places. That doesn't mean it ISN'T entirely irrelevant to the point of being invisible, though; it simply means that the people who own it are such big fans of it that they're fine with keeping it on life-support even though the larger world doesn't know it still exists.
I love MOTU more than just about anything else. But I honestly see it as something that shined very brightly for a time, made a lasting impression on a generation of kids to the point where they carry it with them for the rest of their lives... but has limited appeal outside of its original Time and Place. The world at large has moved on from it, and reboots and reinventions are more like trying to squeeze more milk from the cow than anything. Will ANY new iteration of MOTU ever come anywhere close to the massive phenomenon the brand was in 1985 or so? Honestly, I think it's pretty laughable to even consider that as an option. Not saying they're wrong for trying; I just think that one day - probably sooner than anyone wants to admit - MOTU is going to go on the shelf next to D!ck Tracy and Flash Gordon and The Shadow.
And that's okay, or it ought to be. Everything Ends. Or, at least, ceases to be relevant, since many of those "dead" properties do still "live on" through collectible merchandise such as toys, artwork, etc. In that way, they endure; it's just that nobody is trying to make New Stuff with those brands, and they're probably wise to not attempt it. That's what I envision MOTU's future as being, 20+ years from now; they won't still be making cartoons and absolutely nobody will be trying to make a movie, but they'll still put out statues and posters and action figures from time to time because there's always a market for nostalgia.
Honestly, I'd be fine with that. In fact, it might even be a more dignified subsistence of the brand, versus another dozen failed reboots and an ever-more fractured fanbase.
But, that's just the way I see it.My matches, toy reviews, promos and more are on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA -
MOTU has one advantage that most of those franchises don't: most of those franchises are set in a bygone era. Unless a writer comes along and reboots those series for a modern audience, characters from those franchises are interacting with a world that's no longer relevant to audiences. But MOTU takes place on a completely alien world, which makes it easier to write stories about that can feel modern. Originally Posted by Rikki Roxx
IMO, the only thing that really holds MOTU back is that writers have to try and find a way to make the stories more interesting than "good guy stops bad guy from taking over the world for the zillionth time." I think Kevin Smith found a great plotline to write his story around, although the writing itself is often middling and rushed. -
I don't really know about this series but GI Joe seems to be one of those series that will just not be popular again. Can't really say why, It's just what I have from what I have seen and how little people of my generation never acknowledge it in anyway.
Princesses of Power enthusiast -
I'm pulling this out of my rear end, but I think the reason that MotU will never again reach the glory it did is because A) the notion of muscle-themed action figures is no longer an original concept, and B) action figures are nowhere as popular a choice for entertainment for children as they were in the 80s. Originally Posted by Rikki Roxx
Video games have reached a level in visual which rivals, if not surpasses the 'real' thing. I mean, back then, if you wanted to play your favorite show, you had two options - action figures or video games.
So the options were this
heman.jpg
or this
heman c64.jpg
Today, however, if you want to play your favorite tv show, your options are this
goku.jpg
or this
cooler.jpg
Needless to say, video games (as a visual representation and vessel for the child's entertainment for the show they like) are now a far more impressive option than action figures. It's literally like asking ourselves if vinyl discs can compete with mp3 in terms of convenience and accessibility.
I mean, when a seven year old who watches Dragon Ball (or another cartoon) has the option to play like this why the heck would he buy an action figure which is far less limiting in the spectacle a child can experience and control? -
Yeah, with action figures becoming less popular with children media will be important(including games) for keeping these series alive. Although the cgi show might get some mobile app, if MOTU were to get a game that was on the level of something like War for Cybertron, I would be a win for everyone. Originally Posted by Nikolaidas
Princesses of Power enthusiast
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Interesting point, but I'd argue that both Flash Gordon and John Carter aren't specifically tied to any bygone era (and in fact have a ton of similarities with MOTU, which was entirely on purpose). Their basic plotline(s) could easily be updated to more modern times, and in fact it's been attempted more than once to not much success. The 1980s Flash Gordon movie is a bit of a cult classic (and I will go to my grave insisting that it's one of the best things ever put to film), but it was hardly a huge success and not much of note has ever been done with the property since. I didn't see the John Carter reboot but I'm aware that its failure was legendary. Originally Posted by Universe
I do see your point, and I kind of agree to an extent, at least with some things, but I still feel like there's just as much evidence that some things are just destined to burn brightly and briefly before gradually fading away.
It's like how at one point, Westerns were the biggest thing going, and now nobody wants them. The fact that both Young Guns and Tombstone happened to come out and be exceptional way past the point where the genre was popular anymore, didn't do anything to spur a full-blown genre revival. They were anomalies in the grand scheme of things, as terrific as they were.
Some stuff only "works" in a certain time and place, and after that you're trying to recapture lightning in a bottle.
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I've mentioned this elsewhere, but my gut feeling is that the entire concept of G.I. Joe just doesn't play well in a generation that's been taught that War is Bad and that soldiers are either bad people or just should've gone to college and done something "better" with their lives (to clarify, *I* don't feel that way but it is indeed what most people nowadays teach their children). In the 80s, it was the era of Arnold and Sly, Terminator and Rambo, and "Macho Soldier Guys With Big Guns" were considered something of an aspirational sort of figure. Kids loved playing Army Guy, back then. That was already starting to wane a bit by the time Desert Storm happened, but after 9/11 and the fallout from the Iraq War, forget about it. Even if kids still thought that Army Guys were "cool", which they don't, but IF they did their parents would never let them pursue that sort of thing for playtime anyway. Originally Posted by Reviews2D
Not to mention, the Bad Guys in G.I. Joe are literally a terrorist organization, albeit an incredibly incompetent one, and again that sort of thing is "problematic" in a post-9/11 world. But you kind of can't do G.I. Joe and Cobra without implicating terrorists and terrorism, and it's unavoidable that someone will point fingers and accuse someone of "making light of" a very real and prominent Real Life Problem by way of kids' entertainment. Right or Wrong, that's what would happen.
I was never a huge Joe fan, just someone with a casual appreciation for it. My wife loves it. But that's another thing that I think is "doomed" to just subsist as a series of toys aimed at nostalgic grown-ups and never get a proper full-scale revival. How the heck would you even DO that, if you were so inclined? You kind of can't, the Real World Implications just won't allow for it. You'd have to turn it into something so completely different from what it is that you might as well call it something totally different altogether and not even pretend it's "G.I. Joe" anymore.
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It's a valid, albeit regrettable point. Kids just plain don't care about toys anymore. I do still see a couple of kids in the toy aisle when I go to Wal-Mart, but unless it's Batman they don't often buy anything. And the "big" lines - MOTU Origins, WWE, Star Wars, G.I. Joe - are NOT being bought by kids in any appreciable measure, it's all "adult collectors" buying that stuff. Originally Posted by Nikolaidas
Not sure if I blame the kids or the parents. On some level I think it's the parents, because while both things cost money it's a bit cheaper in the long run to get your kid hooked on video games and electronic devices than it is to get them into a line of toys (or several lines, realistically). Like, "If my kid is bored, I can buy him an action figure to amuse himself with, and then tomorrow he's gonna ask me to buy three more, and then the week after that, and the week after that... OR, I can just give him my phone and let him go on YouTube for an hour or two, which costs me Nothing." And while games cost more than toys, they don't break so fast and can provide more hours of entertainment in the long run.
I mean, I don't *know* any of this, I can only call what I see. In my (anecdotal) experience, most parents I know absolutely hate buying toys for their kids - because "They either break them or get bored of them too fast" - so I can definitely see why they'd nudge them towards an alternative such as electronic devices and games, just because it's less of a hassle or expense.
But it could also very well be that kids themselves just think toys are dumb. I don't know. When my nephew was little about ten years ago, he was fanatical about collecting wrestling figures, but I don't spend a ton of time around too many other kids except my wife's nieces and nephews. I do notice that they seem to have much shorter attention spans than our generation did; like you'll see them at Christmas and they'll be all about A Thing, and then you see them again at Easter and they completely don't care anymore about whatever they were so fanatical about just a few months before. It's weird.My matches, toy reviews, promos and more are on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA -
To add to the GI Joe point, as someone who was a kid when the GI Joe movies were coming out, I never liked them because it all felt too real to me. I mean, at that time, you couldn't get away from coverage of what was going on in the middle east. Like, the turmoil was on the news, on Magazine covers, talked about in school, etc. You see pictures of kids carrying all their belongings in trash bags in a city that's been reduced to rubble, and suddenly the idea of realistic war isn't as fun. Originally Posted by Rikki Roxx
Add to that the fact that at the time, action based properties were becoming less of a thing. Like, this was the era in which comedic kids shows were all the rage. I mean, SpongeBob, Regular Show, Adventure Time, Pokemon, Fairly Odd Parents, all those Nick/Disney sitcoms, and even Batman (I will die on the hill that Brave and the Bold is almost, if not just as goof as BTAS) were all comedic at the time. Like, the only major late 2000s kids show that wasn't a comedy (and even then was still fairly silly and jovial early on) was Clone Wars. -
Yeah, I suspect that was partly why in The Rise of Cobra they sort of leaned into a bit of a more "super-hero" type of aesthetic, giving the Joes those Power Suits and so on that everyone hated. I have a feeling that there was a very strong vibe behind the scenes of, "We do not want to make this too realistic or overtly pro-military, pro-war, etc." So they got a little "fancy" and over-the-top with it as a way to circumvent some of those issues. I mean once they're running around in Mech suits, you're officially doing a super-hero movie and not a war-type movie, there's no two ways about it.
Y'know, I might've just been really baked when I watched it (Statistically Very Likely
) but I honestly didn't hate that movie. Like it was dumb, but I felt it was harmless fluff. And certainly no worse than any of the billion Transformers movies we ended up getting, each of which made a King's ransom at the box office despite being truly rancid and unwatchable stuff. It's weird to me how some Stupid Junk gets to be incredibly successful and other Stupid Junk gets nothing but scorn. I'd honestly rather watch Rise of Cobra again before I'd watch any Transformers movie except maybe the first one, which was alright.
My matches, toy reviews, promos and more are on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA -
Honestly, it was actually a pretty good movie, really fun. It deserved to do a lot better than it did. I didn’t know anything about the franchise before seeing it and I’ve rewatched it a heap of times since. Originally Posted by Rikki Roxx
Give it a shot, If you like sci-fi and fantasy, you’d probably end up enjoying it.Calling all fellow Aussies to post in the Australian Collectors Thread -
I probably will, at some point. Just haven't gotten around to it.
When I speak to its "failure" I'm in no way implying that it was bad, especially since I haven't seen it. Just that I'm aware that it tanked financially and cost the studio a ton of money and ended up being a huge embarrassment for all involved. None of which automatically says anything at all about the movie itself; lots of good movies tank, and lots of terrible movies make lots of money, and in every single case there's a dozen reasons Why That Happened but it rarely has anything to do with how good or bad a movie is.
Point of fact, a decent number of my all-time favorite movies were at the very least critical disasters in their time, and sometimes also bombed financially. One thing that seems to happen very consistently is that most or all of those movies tend to become much more favorably-received by most people with the passage of time. Which does nothing to ultimately "redeem" a movie (or its box office receipts), but it does go to show that people, in general, change their minds a lot. If I had a nickel for every movie I liked that was thrashed upon its release only to be reconsidered several years later by the exact same people who hated it originally, I'd have a mighty tall stack of nickels.
I mean, the reviews for Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me were absolutely brutal, once upon a time. Now it's more or less considered a "misunderstood classic" and some of the same critics who reviewed it originally have completely 180'ed on it. Going from calling a movie "pretentious garbage" to "a surrealist masterpiece" is quite a shift, but sometimes all that changes is the passing of time, the gaining of perspective, and a change in the viewer's mood.
That one's a pretty extreme example, which I cite for specifically that reason. It never, ever surprises me that so many "bombs" or "failures" end up becoming some of the most beloved "cult classics" later on, since it happens so often it's pretty much its own trope by now. But I do always find it extremely interesting as a phenomenon.My matches, toy reviews, promos and more are on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxr...awnHgDz1ceDcfA -
It probably wouldn't please the existing fan base, but if they followed a route similar to the feel of the first trailer, it could reach a larger audience. That was fun and the broader audience really liked it. Originally Posted by Universe
I'm not saying I want it to go that direction, but the trailer was 100x more well received than the actual show was.
Also, The Mandolorian made a lot of Star Wars fans happy at a time when it was being said that you couldn't make Star Wars fans happy.
I think it could be done, but it would be very hard. The market for TV/Movies/Video Games is soooo saturated. The audience is so splintered. You can find any niche thing you like. It's like with the Beatles. When they hit, there weren't 1000 other rock bands to choose from. But over time, we get more and more choices and so the audience for any one thing is diluted. As far back as the mid 90's, there were still dozens of big rock bands. But now... -
So I wholeheartedly agree video games are what kids want these days. But I know for a fact that my two boys wanted figures of their favorite video game characters to play with. Originally Posted by Nikolaidas
So the market for figures is still there, but instead of the old TV cartoon you need a good video game to sell them.
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I enjoyed it. I thought maybe others didn't because they knew more about the books. I came in a blank slate. Originally Posted by ProteinNerd
“I never remember feeling tired by work, though idleness exhausts me completely" - The Sign of Four -
I can think of a few reasons, most of which boil down to "politics." No need to elaborate, but the fact is, the political climate is just different. Originally Posted by Reviews2D
As for MOTU, even the Toys that Made Us episode seemed resigned to the fact that the show's heyday has come and gone. How much of that is just the competition and how much is how badly bungled Revelation was by being Current Year is something we may never know.Last edited by Dynaman; August 17, 2021 at 12:24pm.
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Originally Posted by Rikki Roxx
I was introduced to The Barsoom novels by my dad when I was a wee lad. Originally Posted by Dice
I love the retro-futuristic tales of John Carter! Indeed, they are some of my favorite books.
The Disney movie was actually quite an accurate retelling of "A Princess of Mars." (Minus all of the nudity...)
If you ever have questions about Edgar Rice Burroughs world of Mars, let me know!!Last edited by Ornclown; August 17, 2021 at 01:11pm.
We need the POWER of the GOOD and the WAY of the MAGIC !!!
**Staunch FILMation lover!!! **** Uber NEW ADVENTURES Fan!!!**
>>Glad supporter of the Netflix Era<< -
this is the pattern that has been going on for years now
-Hollywood/Entertainment industry produces the next instalment of a franchise (whether it be Star Wars, She-Ra, in this case it's MOTU Revelations)
-They inject it with politics of all kinds
-After watching jt, the internet is full of everyone complaining and bashing it
And that's pretty much it. Rinse and repeat. This is the current trend, and will happen with every franchise they continue/reboot right now. The policy has changed from these companies "giving us what we want" to "giving us what we don't want". See what's been happening with WWE wrestling these past several years. Same thing there. Yet somehow this policy of "let's screw our own customers" is still translating into profits. It really is mind-boggling but the scary thing is, they have proven that they can give us the middle finger and we will still give them our money.
If Honda all of a sudden started to sell us broken down cars with flat tires and engines that only last for 2,000 KM, would we still buy them? No. So then why do we still buy products from these media companies that are selling us broken down TV shows/movies? This is the question.Last edited by tpi; August 17, 2021 at 02:34pm.
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I loved the book and really liked the movie. Even my daughter got a kick out of the film. I have a big anthology of John Carter stories, but I haven't gotten around to reading more than APoM. Originally Posted by Ornclown
MOTU Origins Most Wanted: Skeleteen, Prince Keldor, Anti-Eternia Characters, and for the love of the Sorceress and Julie Winston, ODIPHUS!!!
Instagram: Just_Thommy
Hermione's Toy Box on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8C...xlwUttPSJAUZMA
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Well kinda like we've discussed a lot in this thread: maybe there are people that like it. For every old fan that doesn't, maybe there is a new one that does? Originally Posted by tpi
“I never remember feeling tired by work, though idleness exhausts me completely" - The Sign of Four
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At its core, G.I. Joe is a toy soldier. Parents are no longer comfortable with children engaging with military and war themed entertainment and toys, particularly weapons. So in order for G.I. Joe to reach mainstream audiences, it needs to be something other than it is, which pleases no one. It is a difficult needle to thread, and I am not confident Hasbro will ever figure it out. Originally Posted by Reviews2D
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It is not mind boggling. Most fandoms have degenerated into into a caricature that looks something like this: Originally Posted by tpi
We get the product we deserve if we keep buying their crap.
That thing about Honda selling broken down cars actually happened only it wasn't Honda. It was Ford, GM, and Chrysler who did that back in the 1970s. They reduced the quality of their product on purpose because it was cheaper and more profitable that way. The faster the cars broke down the faster the consumer would have to buy a new one. It was called "planned obsolescence." It was only made possible because of "brand loyalists." There were people who would say they were a "Ford guy" and only buy Fords no matter what. There were Chevy guys and Chrysler guys who all had the same brand loyalty. Year after they would buy the same junky broken down cars. When a consumer declares their brand loyalty the executives just get dollar signs in their eyes and say: "Look at the sucker over there, lets milk him for everything he's got."
Paradoxically people fall for these tricks all the time. In the short term delivering a shoddy product actually increases demand. If McDonalds reduced the meat in their hamburger by 50% then people would walk away hungry just eating one. Next time the customer will have to buy two hamburgers. See how it can increase demand. The worse the product is the MORE of the product is needed needed by the consumer to satiate their hunger. They do this with toilet paper, soap, potato chips, and many other products all the time. Welcome to living in a capitalist society.
He-Man is essentially the meat in the MOTU hamburger. By reducing the amount of meat (He-Man) it will leave the fans more hungry and desperate for more. Now we have to buy two hamburgers (Revelations + CG series) to get the same satisfaction. -
..................... Originally Posted by InThe80s
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I think G.I. Joe does extremely well during wartime or when conflicts were fresh in everyone's minds. The Gulf War and 911 reinvigorated the brand when it was waning. Nowadays, people have forgotten their rage over 911. Originally Posted by Reviews2D
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Plus it also was almost 20 years ago now. While many who were old enough at the time to understand the gravity of the situation still remember it well, there is now a whole new generation who either weren't around for it or were small children when it happened. For them it does not have the same impact. Originally Posted by MegaGearMax
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Reminder: Politics needs to be kept to the Tar Swamp forum. Thanks.
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Honest question - What’s a bigger measure of how popular your franchise is, a AAA game or a movie? Because it feels like Revelation is supposed to be a springboard to the sorts of things Transformers can do half asleep. Movies. Big budget video games. Instant ubiquity and a near constant stream of media.
We’re somehow in the reality where Hollywood is going to make and release a Saint Seiya and My Hero Academia movie before an MOTU one, and Revelation isn’t helping its case. While MOTU will always endure, it feels like the hype for that next step is dead.
