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Thread: Masters of the Universe Revelation Netflix Series

  1. #8176
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jibernish View Post
    I would say that the writing on MOTUR is bad. It's a subjective opinion, but one that can be substantiated. I know that the people who disagree won't be swayed by any amount of evidence, but that's ok. And you can still like a show with bad writing. It depends on what each person is looking for.
    Is Skeletor being a mostly, He-man obsessed, power hungry buffoon bad writing or is it that you, as a fan, just didn't like it?


    Is it bad writing when Skeletor is willing to drop his power for a little yum-yum time with Evil-lyn or is that not exactly how all men are?
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

  2. #8177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monari View Post
    The thing with punishment, especially when you've committed atrocities that are unprecedented in scale and scope, is that it's usually not up to you to decide how you should be punished. If Randor and the gang just let her go to "live with her guilt" I think it would be highly unrealistic if the entire rest of the planet didn't storm the castle and hang the entire royal family.
    In the Filmation shows, our heroes would still look for an opportunity to redeem the villains to perhaps even to a fault. He-Man was always encouraging and giving chances for Skeletor to be good and see the error of his ways.

    And remember, Dark-Lyn was not defeated in the end of Revelation. She saw the error in her ways and stopped her conquest herself. She gave up the power freely, and even saved Orco from returning to Subternia.

    It looked like Evil Lyn, excuse me, Lyn was transported to some other realm or planet through what appears to be a Sorceress portal, to live out the remainder of her days. So to me, Lyn's ending suits me fine.
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  3. #8178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    It looked like Evil Lyn, excuse me, Lyn was transported to some other realm or planet through what appears to be a Sorceress portal, to live out the remainder of her days. So to me, Lyn's ending suits me fine.
    I assumed she went to Trolla.
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

  4. #8179
    Evil Warrior jibernish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    This is just a very flawed post skewed to lean in your opinion of "bad writing" based on Revelation not getting a thoroughly positive reaction.
    That and all the generally accepted writing principles that the show violates. Do you disagree with my assertion that these principles exist? That they are a valid way to evaluate a film/show? Do you disagree that the writing on the show violates many of these principles?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    You mention evidence, but another piece of unmentioned evidence is the ideological campaign launched by media influencers, and the online protest as a result impacting those reactions.

    Another piece of unmentioned evidence is the very good critical reviews.
    You could argue that the good critical reviews are responsible for some people liking the show when they otherwise wouldn't. If people can be swayed negatively, they can be swayed positively too. It happens both ways, but it's disingenuous to argue that the only reason a substantial portion of the audience dislikes the show is because of some campaign. Most of the people I know who watched the show and didn't like it don't even dip their toes in all this social media nonsense. A lot of them didn't even know there was any controversy at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    And another thing unmentioned is it sometimes it has nothing to do with the writing at all, but the choices made within the narrative are the actual root of much of the backlash, but some simply cannot see the forest for the trees. Teela and The Masters of the Universe? Sorceress and the Masters of the Universe? Nah, haven't seen those complaints. And subsequently these people nitpick and give Revelation scrutiny that their own favorite motu show couldn't survive.



    LOL
    The narrative choices are part of the writing process. A very important part that, if you get them wrong, no amount of clever plotting or dialogue can overcome.

    It is true that my favorite MOTU show (Filmation) violates many of these writing principles too. I would never argue that the writing on the show was good overall by today's standards. I think I did mention that you can like a show even if the writing is bad (if I didn't, I should have mentioned that). People like things for different reasons. I love Filmation because I love many of the characters they established, the world they set up, the mythos they explored, and the charm and heart that the show has. These are subjective too and I wouldn't say anyone is wrong if they disagreed. I wouldn't argue if anyone said the writing was bad. But I would argue if anyone said the show was bad. I don't think it is. And since part 2 of MOTUR aired, I haven't argued that the show is bad (though I don't like it). But I do assert that the writing is bad. And I can see why people still like it.

  5. #8180
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    Quote Originally Posted by jibernish View Post
    Do you disagree with my assertion that these principles exist? That they are a valid way to evaluate a film/show? Do you disagree that the writing on the show violates many of these principles?
    Yes, sometimes and no.

    but it's disingenuous to argue that the only reason a substantial portion of the audience dislikes the show is because of some campaign.
    I didn't argue that was the only reason. But you introduced "evidence", and I added "additional evidence" that is real, also a factor, that you are quickly trying to discount in various ways to push your argument. So I still find your post skewed, faulty and I stand by my statement.
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  6. #8181
    Evil Warrior jibernish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    Is Skeletor being a mostly, He-man obsessed, power hungry buffoon bad writing or is it that you, as a fan, just didn't like it?
    I would say it's bad writing, yes. I would substantiate that by saying that most of the professional writers I have read and listened to argue that your characters motives need to be clear and reasonable and consistent. Skeletor always wanted power first and foremost. He hates He-Man mostly because He-Man prevents him from having what he really wants - more power than anyone else. So when Skeletor gives up that desire of his to pursue a lesser desire, that violates the principles of good writing. Obsessing over He-Man isn't bad writing. But loosing track of his ultimate goal to do so, I would argue, is bad writing. Skeletor would be a more formidable and compelling villain to most people most of the time if the writers wrote him that way. For example, Captain Ahab is obsessed with Moby ****. He meets his demise because of this obsession. But that is good writing because that is Ahab's main goal and his biggest weakness. Ahab wasn't trying to take over the world and then he got distracted because of some whale and then gives up on his main goal. It's bad writing to make someone give up something he/she has wanted in nearly ever second of screentime he/she has ever had for something he/she has never been shown to want.

    I also didn't like it. I'm not just relying on what others have said about what is or isn't good writing. I dislike this for my own reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    Is it bad writing when Skeletor is willing to drop his power for a little yum-yum time with Evil-lyn or is that not exactly how all men are?
    I think that was terrible writing, not because men don't do that, but because:
    1. that goes against Skeletor's character. Most professional writers would say it's bad writing to make your characters go against established way of being just to make a joke or to push the plot points you want to push.
    2. the writers just showed that he didn't trust her. He accused her of betraying him by giving Savage He-Man that power. So again, Skeletor risks his main goal just to get some action, when that's not something Skeletor, or anyone else in the show, is motivated by. Sex isn't a motivating factor in the MOTU universe. The writers just put it in here for reasons, certainly because they wanted Evil-Lyn to get the upper hand, but probably also for gender politics reasons. Neither of these should trump the inherent, logical story or characterization that has already occurred.

    Also, not all men are this way.

  7. #8182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    I assumed she went to Trolla.
    Hmm, very interesting! I'll have to review that scene again!
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  9. #8184
    Evil Warrior jibernish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    Yes, sometimes and no.
    Fair enough. I'm not trying to bully anyone into accepting what I say as fact. I'm mostly just arguing against others assertions that no one can fairly say that the writing is bad. That we all have hidden motives and agendas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    I didn't argue that was the only reason. But you introduced "evidence", and I added "additional evidence" that is real, also a factor, that you are quickly trying to discount in various ways to push your argument. So I still find your post skewed, faulty and I stand by my statement.
    I stand by mine as well.

  10. #8185
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    Quote Originally Posted by jibernish View Post
    Also, not all men are this way.
    I didn't do a good job of making it seem so but my comments to you were laced with sarcasm. I believe there was some poor writing on the show (some horrible like the Skeletor scene) but even more so really poor writing choices and directions to take the franchise.
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

  11. #8186
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    Quote Originally Posted by King Daddy Bo-Hog View Post
    I'm not even arguing the merits of your statements--or lack thereof--at this point. People misusing the word "objective" ruffles my feathers.
    C'mon, man. Don't be that way. We're just talking.

    Alright, let’s get a few things straight. First, I think you attempt to argue semantics.

    You claim that there is no such thing as objectively bad writing. I disagree.

    For example, imagine someone standing up and claiming he wants to sing. He starts to sing a famous song and his voice gets it all wrong - wrong pitch, no tempo, messes up the lyrics, coughs every four seconds, fumbles over his words ... almost everyone in the audience is twitching nervously, others boo him, others laugh, others tell him to shut up and sit down. Out of the twenty people in the audience, thirteen are shouting at him to stop, five people just shrug and hear him until he’s done, and two people are in tears, are clapping and claim this is the best version of the song they ever listened to.

    So basically we have a singer who made 65% of the audience wanting to tear their ears off, 25% of the audience saying ‘meh’, and 10% who were amazed at the singer’s performance.

    Now, the 10% and the 65% percent have completely opposite views to the point that convincing each other that their opinion is ‘the right one’ is an exercise in futility. Even if the 65% claim that they have the numbers on their side, it matters little because the 10% claim that they have a better understanding of the music and the 65% simply ‘missed the point’ because they were so hang up on comparing the singer’s interpretation to the original they completely ignored to criticize the singer’s work on his OWN merit. Understandable.

    However,

    There are some things - some generic ‘rules’, if you will - that can help us criticize the work in an completely objective manner.

    Do we agree that in general, a singer coughing every now and then is not a good thing for a song?

    Do we agree that in general, messing up the lyrics and stuttering all the time is not a good thing for a song?

    Do we agree that in general, singing a syllable while attempting to do a high-pitch, then a low pitch then a high pitch then a low pitch again (making your attempt to make an AAAAAAAAH sound like a AAAAHOOOOHAAAHHOOOHAAAAHOOOOOAHHGAAAAH while you are supposed to hold the high pitch throughout this whole time turn into a spectacular fail) is not a good thing for a song?

    I like to think that we do, but ... correct me if I’m wrong.

    Even if we accept that Revelation has nothing to do with the Filmation series (which isn’t the pitch they were originally going for, according to Netflix’s synopsis), even if we judge the characters on their own merits and not based on their Filmation counterparts, there are still many problems. Let’s ignore the fact that it doesn’t have He-Man as the protagonist. Let’s ignore EVERYTHING about the Filmation series when criticizing Revelation. It doesn’t matter. Never happened. Fine. Let’s run with the show on its own merits.

    I won’t go into the trouble of stating ALL of the plot holes - especially since it’s quite obvious you aren’t interested in debating them. For example, I personally believe that Triclops’ attack on Grayskull after all those years coincidentally happening at the time the team returns to Grayskull from Preternia is bad writing - or, if the word ‘bad’ annoys you so much, accept ‘lazy’ writing as a better word.

    The sad thing is that a lot of this could be resolved with a few lines of dialogue, or some different / extra scenes. If the Sorceress (when Evil Lyn and Teela came to see her in Ep2) had commented on the fact that Grayskull is in greater danger by the day because Triclops has been making more and more frequent attempts to break in, this would immediately foreshadow Triclops’ assault in Ep5, as well as make it a lot more believable to happen at the time the group teleported back. Also, it would make a lot more sense for Teela to tell Man-At-Arms to go to Grayskull, so that he could help against Triclops when apparently it makes little sense in the actual show - because the show gives us the impression literally no one bothers with Grayskull for years now. Cause if they did, I doubt that the Sorceress was in any position to stop them in her current state in the first half.

    And never forget the golden rule in storytelling: “If the story accommodates the characters, that is good writing. If the characters accommodate the story, that is bad writing.”

    If you sit back and think about it, a lot of the characters’ actions are made for the sole purpose of accommodating the story, to the detriment of their personalities. Even worse, the characters contradict each other and the show’s OWN lore at every turn. Skeletor claims he’s an incel, yet two episodes later is revealed to be in a relationship of sorts with Evil Lyn. So which is it? Is he an incel or not? Is he a disfigured person or a normal being from his dimension? Is Evil Lyn capable of taking the Power from Skeletor by her own will as a Sorceress or not? Why isn’t Teela puzzled by the fact that she screamed and the first half of the Power Sword materialized in her hands and instead acts as if ‘she got this’? What was it about her that made Scareglow cower in defeat - didn’t that bother her one bit, other than setting up one of the most out-of-place one-liners in the history of television? Is a Sorceress bound to the castle or not? And if Teela isn’t, why wasn’t her mother? What's different about Teela? If the story doesn’t give a valid reason other than ‘Teela didn’t feel like it’, if the story isn’t capable of following through its own canon, its own rules and its own lore, why isn’t that *objectively* *BAD* writing?

    I’m not trying to brainwash you, nor am I attempting to one-up you. I am legitimately curious how the show can contradict its own rules and lore and people think that’s good writing.

    Honestly, hand-to-heart curious. I don’t want to hear ‘show X also has bad writing’, I don’t care about ‘you were expecting Shakespeare?’ the debate is whether or not THIS show has ‘objectively bad’ writing.

    Or do we disagree on the fact that a show contradicting its own rules and canon is not a characteristic of bad writing and it’s actually a good thing?

    Please, indulge me.

  12. #8187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    I didn't do a good job of making it seem so but my comments to you were laced with sarcasm. I believe there was some poor writing on the show (some horrible like the Skeletor scene) but even more so really poor writing choices and directions to take the franchise.
    I thought so, but figured I'd address it anyways.

  13. #8188
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    Quote Originally Posted by jibernish View Post
    I thought so, but figured I'd address it anyways.
    No you did exactly what I wanted. Answered the questions the way they should be answered and addressed.


    I came home Wednesday evening after a great round of golf and binged episodes 5 to the end. That was my plan for the day.

    Maybe no one else but for me as a fan, it left me feeling beat down and disappointed. Embarrassed even. I told my sons not to even bother watching it. I had a hard time sleeping that night just because of how badly I felt the show represented MOTU lore and franchise.


    I'm embarrassed to think that a lot of my friends that know I'm a big He-man fan will possibly watch this series and think that's what I've been in to this whole time.
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    I didn't do a good job of making it seem so but my comments to you were laced with sarcasm. I believe there was some poor writing on the show (some horrible like the Skeletor scene) but even more so really poor writing choices and directions to take the franchise.
    And that makes up the majority of criticsms truth be told. We see all the negative social media posts. They don't read They didn't write a competent narrative!!! No, we all saw what most of the complaints were about... the story choices... the spotlight benching He-Man for Teela, etc.

    And the Skeletor/ Evil Lynn scene illustrates my point as well. The scene wasn't written badly. It was written quite well. I understood what happened. The manipulation. The carnal desires and arrogance of Skeletor was manipulated, by Evil Lyn. Saying I don't like seeing Skeletor horny, or a buffoon, or tricked so easily, or me not feeling it respected the lore has nothing to do with inferior or incompetent skills of writing but rather what one perceives as poor choices that they wouldn't prefer those characters to do or represent. I found it fitting of those two, you don't. So where do we go from there? We each stand on a hill, plant our flag and declare from the following conditions...

    I personally liked where it went = Good writing?
    I personally didn't like where it went = Bad writing?

    No, it's all about the narrative choices that we're made. People start saying "I didn't like it" or "I hated the path they went down" or "I thought the story or this scene sucked" versus declaring whatever path taken they don't like as "bad writing", and we'll have a much more intellectual and civil thread in my opinion.
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  15. #8190
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    And the Skeletor/ Evil Lynn scene illustrates my point as well. The scene wasn't written badly. It was written quite well. I understood what happened. The manipulation. The carnal desires and arrogance of Skeletor was manipulated, by Evil Lyn. Saying I don't like seeing Skeletor horny, or a buffoon, or tricked so easily, or me not feeling it respected the lore has nothing to do with inferior or incompetent skills of writing but rather what one perceives as poor choices that they wouldn't prefer those characters to do or represent. I found it fitting of those two, you don't. So where do we go from there? We each stand on a hill, plant our flag and declare from the following conditions...
    So I understand your point but I have to say, IMO, this scene WAS poorly written. Change the characters out for any others and this scene still has as much depth as a 15 year old could come up with. It's more than clumsy, very basic, and not anywhere near believable. It's exactly what a average non fan would expect from a "cartoon".

    Who didn't see her intentions coming from a mile away?


    I can't help but laugh/cry every time I think of her making out with a skeletal set of teeth
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  16. #8191
    Evil Warrior jibernish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    And that makes up the majority of criticsms truth be told. We see all the negative social media posts. They don't read They didn't write a competent narrative!!! No, we all saw what most of the complaints were about... the story choices... the spotlight benching He-Man for Teela, etc.

    And the Skeletor/ Evil Lynn scene illustrates my point as well. The scene wasn't written badly. It was written quite well. I understood what happened. The manipulation. The carnal desires and arrogance of Skeletor was manipulated, by Evil Lyn. Saying I don't like seeing Skeletor horny, or a buffoon, or tricked so easily, or me not feeling it respected the lore has nothing to do with inferior or incompetent skills of writing but rather what one perceives as poor choices that they wouldn't prefer those characters to do or represent. I found it fitting of those two, you don't. So where do we go from there? We each stand on a hill, plant our flag and declare from the following conditions...

    I personally liked where it went = Good writing?
    I personally didn't like where it went = Bad writing?


    No, it's all about the narrative choices that we're made. People start saying "I didn't like it" or "I hated the path they went down" or "I thought the story or this scene sucked" versus declaring whatever path taken they don't like as "bad writing", and we'll have a much more intellectual and civil thread in my opinion.
    I disagree with this, and maybe that's partly why there is such disagreement in this thread. I think writing can be bad for reasons other than "I personally didn't like where it went." But you already said that you don't agree that there are generally accepted principles of what makes writing good or bad, and so that makes any further conversation on the topic kinda pointless for me, which is fine.

    I think it would be cool to talk about the show with people who also have studied screenwriting or any kind of narrative fiction. I'm sure I'm wrong on some of my points. For example I do have a friend who minored in film. I told her that I thought it was bad writing that Beast Man has this whole conversation with Evil-Lyn about her having the ability to control Skeletor's access to power now that she is the Sorceress, and that she only defers to him because he has abused her in the past, that she needs to overcome this. And then in the next scene she just ignores all that and seduces Skeletor to get the power. I said it was bad writing because they did all of that setup and then didn't pay it off. My friend said that maybe they want to show that despite Evil-Lyn's desire for change, she wasn't able to change. That she went right back to her old ways. I hadn't considered that and that was a good point. But I would still say it is a problem with the writing because even if that is what the writers were trying to show, they didn't show it. They didn't show that that was how she used to get her way (through seduction) and they didn't show her struggle with the decision to try Beast Man's new way or to use her old seductive ways. They didn't show that so... I think it was a failure of the writing. I think the direction (to use sex at all) was bad, but bad in the way Voodoo Magic is talking about. But I think failing to establish things better is bad in the way that I have been asserting, by going against writing principles.

    I don't know, I find that kind of conversation interesting. Not everyone does though. I know a lot of people hate analysis. I know when I've tried to have that kind of talk here I'm called a baby or a bad person or a misogynist or all number of things, told I need to toughen up (as if I'm over here crying), etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    Who didn't see her intentions coming from a mile away?
    You wouldn't. And neither would I... if this was with a character that's been by your side since she was young and practiced this deviant behavior multiple times with you before. Now she wants to do it on the Sorceress throne to celebrate? How delightfully twisted that must seem to Skeletor.

    I can't help but laugh/cry every time I think of her making out with a skeletal set of teeth
    Yeah, I don't quite get Demon Skeletor's face. It's not actually a skull because his face contorts and his brows lower and raise, but there was quite a disgusting air to it that I quite enjoyed. But I get people being grossed out by it, especially with the slurping sounds, which might be the point.
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  18. #8193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    You wouldn't. And neither would I... if this was with a character that's been by your side since she was young and practiced this deviant behavior multiple times with you before. Now she wants to do it on the Sorceress throne to celebrate? How delightfully twisted that must seem to Skeletor.
    OK, first of all, yes I would. What am I, 12 years old?

    Secondly, my question was pointed at the viewers, not the fictional characters on screen. I meant how many people watching didn't know exactly what she had planned from the start?


    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    Yeah, I don't quite get Demon Skeletor's face. It's not actually a skull because his face contorts and his brows lower and raise, but there was quite a disgusting air to it that I quite enjoyed. But I get people being grossed out by it, especially with the slurping sounds, which might be the point.
    And to a lot of us that was childish/poor writing. Basically what you'd expect some kid to read out loud in his high school class trying to "gross out" the girls.
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by jibernish View Post
    But you already said that you don't agree that there are generally accepted principles of what makes writing good or bad, and so that makes any further conversation on the topic kinda pointless for me, which is fine.
    Not quite what I said. If you go back you'll see you asked three questions and I gave you three one word answers. But at this point we're going in circles, so to each their own. Cheers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nikolaidas View Post
    C'mon, man. Don't be that way. We're just talking.

    Alright, let’s get a few things straight. First, I think you attempt to argue semantics.

    You claim that there is no such thing as objectively bad writing. I disagree.

    For example, imagine someone standing up and claiming he wants to sing. He starts to sing a famous song and his voice gets it all wrong - wrong pitch, no tempo, messes up the lyrics, coughs every four seconds, fumbles over his words ... almost everyone in the audience is twitching nervously, others boo him, others laugh, others tell him to shut up and sit down. Out of the twenty people in the audience, thirteen are shouting at him to stop, five people just shrug and hear him until he’s done, and two people are in tears, are clapping and claim this is the best version of the song they ever listened to.

    So basically we have a singer who made 65% of the audience wanting to tear their ears off, 25% of the audience saying ‘meh’, and 10% who were amazed at the singer’s performance.

    Now, the 10% and the 65% percent have completely opposite views to the point that convincing each other that their opinion is ‘the right one’ is an exercise in futility. Even if the 65% claim that they have the numbers on their side, it matters little because the 10% claim that they have a better understanding of the music and the 65% simply ‘missed the point’ because they were so hang up on comparing the singer’s interpretation to the original they completely ignored to criticize the singer’s work on his OWN merit. Understandable.

    However,

    There are some things - some generic ‘rules’, if you will - that can help us criticize the work in an completely objective manner.

    Do we agree that in general, a singer coughing every now and then is not a good thing for a song?

    Do we agree that in general, messing up the lyrics and stuttering all the time is not a good thing for a song?

    Do we agree that in general, singing a syllable while attempting to do a high-pitch, then a low pitch then a high pitch then a low pitch again (making your attempt to make an AAAAAAAAH sound like a AAAAHOOOOHAAAHHOOOHAAAAHOOOOOAHHGAAAAH while you are supposed to hold the high pitch throughout this whole time turn into a spectacular fail) is not a good thing for a song?

    I like to think that we do, but ... correct me if I’m wrong.

    Even if we accept that Revelation has nothing to do with the Filmation series (which isn’t the pitch they were originally going for, according to Netflix’s synopsis), even if we judge the characters on their own merits and not based on their Filmation counterparts, there are still many problems. Let’s ignore the fact that it doesn’t have He-Man as the protagonist. Let’s ignore EVERYTHING about the Filmation series when criticizing Revelation. It doesn’t matter. Never happened. Fine. Let’s run with the show on its own merits.

    I won’t go into the trouble of stating ALL of the plot holes - especially since it’s quite obvious you aren’t interested in debating them. For example, I personally believe that Triclops’ attack on Grayskull after all those years coincidentally happening at the time the team returns to Grayskull from Preternia is bad writing - or, if the word ‘bad’ annoys you so much, accept ‘lazy’ writing as a better word.

    The sad thing is that a lot of this could be resolved with a few lines of dialogue, or some different / extra scenes. If the Sorceress (when Evil Lyn and Teela came to see her in Ep2) had commented on the fact that Grayskull is in greater danger by the day because Triclops has been making more and more frequent attempts to break in, this would immediately foreshadow Triclops’ assault in Ep5, as well as make it a lot more believable to happen at the time the group teleported back. Also, it would make a lot more sense for Teela to tell Man-At-Arms to go to Grayskull, so that he could help against Triclops when apparently it makes little sense in the actual show - because the show gives us the impression literally no one bothers with Grayskull for years now. Cause if they did, I doubt that the Sorceress was in any position to stop them in her current state in the first half.

    And never forget the golden rule in storytelling: “If the story accommodates the characters, that is good writing. If the characters accommodate the story, that is bad writing.”

    If you sit back and think about it, a lot of the characters’ actions are made for the sole purpose of accommodating the story, to the detriment of their personalities. Even worse, the characters contradict each other and the show’s OWN lore at every turn. Skeletor claims he’s an incel, yet two episodes later is revealed to be in a relationship of sorts with Evil Lyn. So which is it? Is he an incel or not? Is he a disfigured person or a normal being from his dimension? Is Evil Lyn capable of taking the Power from Skeletor by her own will as a Sorceress or not? Why isn’t Teela puzzled by the fact that she screamed and the first half of the Power Sword materialized in her hands and instead acts as if ‘she got this’? What was it about her that made Scareglow cower in defeat - didn’t that bother her one bit, other than setting up one of the most out-of-place one-liners in the history of television? Is a Sorceress bound to the castle or not? And if Teela isn’t, why wasn’t her mother? What's different about Teela? If the story doesn’t give a valid reason other than ‘Teela didn’t feel like it’, if the story isn’t capable of following through its own canon, its own rules and its own lore, why isn’t that *objectively* *BAD* writing?

    I’m not trying to brainwash you, nor am I attempting to one-up you. I am legitimately curious how the show can contradict its own rules and lore and people think that’s good writing.

    Honestly, hand-to-heart curious. I don’t want to hear ‘show X also has bad writing’, I don’t care about ‘you were expecting Shakespeare?’ the debate is whether or not THIS show has ‘objectively bad’ writing.

    Or do we disagree on the fact that a show contradicting its own rules and canon is not a characteristic of bad writing and it’s actually a good thing?

    Please, indulge me.
    Okay, I should clarify that I'm not actually mad in any way. I have like some kind of trigger with a few things in the english language and when I see it abused it just gets pulled on. Objectivity vs subjectivity is one of them.

    So, here's the thing--because I have read through your explanation, and I do fully understand where you're coming from. The answer I have for you is pretty straight forward, though. The thing about writing is that it is a form of art. Art cannot be objectively good or bad by its very nature, because it is entirely up to interpretation by the individual.

    Without getting into a more detailed discussion about it, I just have to say that I don't agree that the show contradicts its own rules and lore. But even if we did agree on that, it doesn't make it objectively bad (or objectively good either, of course), and here's why... because perhaps I prefer it that way; maybe I like it not being so consistent that it becomes boring. I'm going to assume, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that one of the rules you're talking about is Teela becoming a sorceress that can go outside of Grayskull.... even if that's not one of your complaints, it will still serve as an example. So it was established that the Sorceress had to give up everything and would be stuck inside the castle for life. Okay, so this is a rule established by the lore. Then all of a sudden Teela "decides" she can do otherwise. See, now you might say that's terrible writing, while I love it because it simply means that she found a way around the rule. A story doesn't have to stick to what is expected, and it doesn't necessarily have to explain absolutely every detail of every little thing. For me, it is enough to imagine that while she was in the pool she figured out a way to get outside the bounds. "But that's a terrible way to write!" You might exclaim. But then I might reply, "But I love it!". The point... we don't get to declare an objective truth on something that is just a matter of preference, even if 99.999% of people agree, it does not make it objective.

    Another thing about the art of writing is that a writer has the authority to break whatever rules they've established however they want. It is their story; some readers will hate it, some will love it, all depending on the circumstance. That is what makes it subjective--people have the choice in what they can or cannot like.

    Even the rules of writing itself can be broken. Yes, there are strict rules when forming a sentence structure in English. Yet it is almost always accepted that in fiction writing these rules can be bent and even broken for dramatic or narrative effect. If you don't believe me, read a Stephen King novel. Some people hate his writing style, some love it. Again, it is subjective preference.

  21. #8196
    Call Your Champion Voodoo Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    OK, first of all, yes I would. What am I, 12 years old?
    lol... I don't even know.... how to answer...

    Secondly, my question was pointed at the viewers, not the fictional characters on screen. I meant how many people watching didn't know exactly what she had planned from the start?
    Oy. The audience 'in the know' doesn't equate to bad writing my friend. The moment was set up. And we, the audience, could tell by Evil-Lyn's looks exactly what she was up to when Skeletor wasn't making eye contact with her. It clearly wasn't intended to be a surprise to the audience. Dude! This is just another example of what I mean. You not being surprised doesn't equate to bad writing!

    And to a lot of us that was childish/poor writing. Basically what you'd expect some kid to read out loud in his high school class trying to "gross out" the girls.
    Yes, that's close to a valid framed criticism imo. You found that moment childish. Alright then! But some like childish, or what you perceive as childish, so it doesn't always equate to poor writing for everyone.
    Last edited by Voodoo Magic; November 29, 2021 at 02:48pm.
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  22. #8197
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    lol... I don't even know.... how to answer...
    I'm just saying that for a lot of us a women offering herself doesn't turn us into mindless horn dogs. Especially when, as you put it, has had her multiple time before.

    Do you turn into a mindless boob anytime your wife/girlfriend/significant other offers you some luvin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    Oy. The audience 'in the know' doesn't equate to bad writing my friend. The moment was set up. And we, the audience, could tell by Evil-Lyn's looks exactly what she was up to when Skeletor wasn't making eye contact with her. It clearly wasn't intended to be a surprise to the audience. Dude! This is just another example of what I mean. You not being surprised doesn't equate to bad writing!

    Yes, that's close to a valid framed criticism imo. You found that moment childish. Alright then! But some like childish, or what you perceive as childish, so it doesn't always equate to poor writing for everyone.
    I look at it as bad of a necessary plot contrivance as when He-man stabbed Skeletor right into the key slot in episode one. "Hmmm, how can we get Skeletor to relinquish this power he obviously loves and has been after for years?? I know! Offer him some booty! Great idea!! (clapping and high fives abound!)." "Check out this deviant art folder I have for more ideas!"

    I'm sorry. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but, to me, this is just awful.
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

  23. #8198
    Call Your Champion Voodoo Magic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice View Post
    I'm just saying that for a lot of us a women offering herself doesn't turn us into mindless horn dogs. Especially when, as you put it, has had her multiple time before.

    Do you turn into a mindless boob anytime your wife/girlfriend/significant other offers you some luvin?
    Wife, and I believe the question should be, do I worry she will pull a knife aimed at my throat or grab an icepick when I'm least expecting one day during a romantic moment. And my answer is... No (which may be my undoing one day )

    I look at it as bad of a necessary plot contrivance as when He-man stabbed Skeletor right into the key slot in episode one. "Hmmm, how can we get Skeletor to relinquish this power he obviously loves and has been after for years?? I know! Offer him some booty! Great idea!! (clapping and high fives abound!)." "Check out this deviant art folder I have for more ideas!"
    LOL

    I'm sorry. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion, but, to me, this is just awful.
    And you're entitled.
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  24. #8199
    Evil Warrior jibernish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    Not quite what I said. If you go back you'll see you asked three questions and I gave you three one word answers. But at this point we're going in circles, so to each their own. Cheers.
    You're right. I did go back but I got the order of your answers/my questions mixed up in my head. I take back the comment you quoted.

  25. #8200
    Life is good Dice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voodoo Magic View Post
    Wife, and I believe the question should be, do I worry she will pull a knife aimed at my throat or grab an icepick when I'm least expecting one day during a romantic moment. And my answer is... No (which may be my undoing one day )
    You better watch out!


    But I'm betting you and your wife don't have a Filmation history where she's repeatedly tried to betray you as you constantly treat her like trash.
    “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”

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